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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 717.917, \"end\": 718.177, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 718.177, \"end\": 718.377, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 718.377, \"end\": 718.718, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 718.718, \"end\": 719.218, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 719.218, \"end\": 719.238, \"score\": 0.069}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:00,509\n主席、各位同仁\n\n2\n00:00:24,229 --> 00:00:49,460\n我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理那這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來\n\n3\n00:00:51,343 --> 00:01:08,007\n我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長\n\n4\n00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:38,864\n所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長\n\n5\n00:01:52,635 --> 00:02:18,793\n委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教\n\n6\n00:02:23,756 --> 00:02:39,902\n這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的公告實施的這個\n\n7\n00:02:41,645 --> 00:03:08,355\n統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據啦網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並\n\n8\n00:03:09,595 --> 00:03:30,495\n會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算你要這個相關的設備你要設置\n\n9\n00:03:33,157 --> 00:03:48,012\n不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟這個設置這個相關設備的這些經費\n\n10\n00:03:50,675 --> 00:04:04,804\n那這一次法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態\n\n11\n00:04:07,427 --> 00:04:26,188\n本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家\n\n12\n00:04:27,009 --> 00:04:40,174\n在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了那今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個\n\n13\n00:04:44,383 --> 00:05:11,301\n我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行\n\n14\n00:05:13,186 --> 00:05:34,552\n那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編五億零四百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是要十二億的最早是十二億八千三百萬對不對但是分年分年對分年對但整個總計劃原本是十二億但是後來我們因為這個\n\n15\n00:05:40,214 --> 00:05:58,672\n我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原先你原本想投資的設備後來\n\n16\n00:05:59,853 --> 00:06:05,218\n大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年114年度的預算是多少\n\n17\n00:06:17,329 --> 00:06:27,573\n本來是編5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦這個網路犯罪啦嚴重啦\n\n18\n00:06:44,338 --> 00:07:00,595\n那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼\n\n19\n00:07:01,311 --> 00:07:30,871\n我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同\n\n20\n00:07:31,571 --> 00:07:58,004\n所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上\n\n21\n00:07:59,153 --> 00:08:12,024\n是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃\n\n22\n00:08:20,591 --> 00:08:37,335\n你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算\n\n23\n00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:56,738\n這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎\n\n24\n00:08:58,239 --> 00:09:18,284\n不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的\n\n25\n00:09:19,404 --> 00:09:45,268\n使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具\n\n26\n00:09:46,168 --> 00:10:11,842\n這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話\n\n27\n00:10:12,742 --> 00:10:34,750\n所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個\n\n28\n00:10:42,537 --> 00:11:10,743\n這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定\n\n29\n00:11:12,546 --> 00:11:24,176\n這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定\n\n30\n00:11:25,776 --> 00:11:44,984\n有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準集合機制這些我們能夠\n\n31\n00:11:46,084 --> 00:11:59,238\n能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t509\t主席、各位同仁\n24229\t49460\t我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理那這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來\n51343\t68007\t我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長\n76079\t98864\t所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長\n112635\t138793\t委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教\n143756\t159902\t這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的公告實施的這個\n161645\t188355\t統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據啦網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並\n189595\t210495\t會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算你要這個相關的設備你要設置\n213157\t228012\t不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟這個設置這個相關設備的這些經費\n230675\t244804\t那這一次法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態\n247427\t266188\t本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家\n267009\t280174\t在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了那今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個\n284383\t311301\t我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行\n313186\t334552\t那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編五億零四百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是要十二億的最早是十二億八千三百萬對不對但是分年分年對分年對但整個總計劃原本是十二億但是後來我們因為這個\n340214\t358672\t我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原先你原本想投資的設備後來\n359853\t365218\t大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年114年度的預算是多少\n377329\t387573\t本來是編5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對 然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦 這個網路犯罪啦 嚴重啦\n404338\t420595\t那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼\n421311\t450871\t我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同\n451571\t478004\t所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上\n479153\t492024\t是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃\n500591\t517335\t你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算\n518996\t536738\t這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎\n538239\t558284\t不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的\n559404\t585268\t使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具\n586168\t611842\t這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話\n612742\t634750\t所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個\n642537\t670743\t這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定\n672546\t684176\t這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定\n685776\t704984\t有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準 集合機制這些我們能夠\n706084\t719238\t能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"主席、各位同仁\n我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理那這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來\n我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長\n所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長\n委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教\n這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的公告實施的這個\n統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據啦網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並\n會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算你要這個相關的設備你要設置\n不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟這個設置這個相關設備的這些經費\n那這一次法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態\n本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家\n在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了那今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個\n我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行\n那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編五億零四百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是要十二億的最早是十二億八千三百萬對不對但是分年分年對分年對但整個總計劃原本是十二億但是後來我們因為這個\n我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原先你原本想投資的設備後來\n大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年114年度的預算是多少\n本來是編5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對 然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦 這個網路犯罪啦 嚴重啦\n那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼\n我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同\n所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上\n是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃\n你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算\n這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎\n不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的\n使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具\n這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話\n所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個\n這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定\n這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定\n有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準 集合機制這些我們能夠\n能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:00.509\n主席、各位同仁\n\n00:24.229 --> 00:49.460\n我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理那這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來\n\n00:51.343 --> 01:08.007\n我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長\n\n01:16.079 --> 01:38.864\n所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長\n\n01:52.635 --> 02:18.793\n委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教\n\n02:23.756 --> 02:39.902\n這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的公告實施的這個\n\n02:41.645 --> 03:08.355\n統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據啦網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並\n\n03:09.595 --> 03:30.495\n會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算你要這個相關的設備你要設置\n\n03:33.157 --> 03:48.012\n不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟這個設置這個相關設備的這些經費\n\n03:50.675 --> 04:04.804\n那這一次法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態\n\n04:07.427 --> 04:26.188\n本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家\n\n04:27.009 --> 04:40.174\n在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了那今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個\n\n04:44.383 --> 05:11.301\n我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行\n\n05:13.186 --> 05:34.552\n那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編五億零四百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是要十二億的最早是十二億八千三百萬對不對但是分年分年對分年對但整個總計劃原本是十二億但是後來我們因為這個\n\n05:40.214 --> 05:58.672\n我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原先你原本想投資的設備後來\n\n05:59.853 --> 06:05.218\n大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年114年度的預算是多少\n\n06:17.329 --> 06:27.573\n本來是編5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦這個網路犯罪啦嚴重啦\n\n06:44.338 --> 07:00.595\n那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼\n\n07:01.311 --> 07:30.871\n我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同\n\n07:31.571 --> 07:58.004\n所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上\n\n07:59.153 --> 08:12.024\n是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃\n\n08:20.591 --> 08:37.335\n你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算\n\n08:38.996 --> 08:56.738\n這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎\n\n08:58.239 --> 09:18.284\n不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的\n\n09:19.404 --> 09:45.268\n使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具\n\n09:46.168 --> 10:11.842\n這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話\n\n10:12.742 --> 10:34.750\n所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個\n\n10:42.537 --> 11:10.743\n這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定\n\n11:12.546 --> 11:24.176\n這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定\n\n11:25.776 --> 11:44.984\n有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準集合機制這些我們能夠\n\n11:46.084 --> 11:59.238\n能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.509,"text":"主席、各位同仁"},{"start":24.229,"end":49.46,"text":"我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理那這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來"},{"start":51.343,"end":68.007,"text":"我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長"},{"start":76.079,"end":98.864,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長"},{"start":112.635,"end":138.793,"text":"委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教"},{"start":143.756,"end":159.902,"text":"這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的公告實施的這個"},{"start":161.645,"end":188.355,"text":"統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據啦網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並"},{"start":189.595,"end":210.495,"text":"會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算你要這個相關的設備你要設置"},{"start":213.157,"end":228.012,"text":"不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟這個設置這個相關設備的這些經費"},{"start":230.675,"end":244.804,"text":"那這一次法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態"},{"start":247.427,"end":266.188,"text":"本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家"},{"start":267.009,"end":280.174,"text":"在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了那今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個"},{"start":284.383,"end":311.301,"text":"我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行"},{"start":313.186,"end":334.552,"text":"那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編五億零四百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是要十二億的最早是十二億八千三百萬對不對但是分年分年對分年對但整個總計劃原本是十二億但是後來我們因為這個"},{"start":340.214,"end":358.672,"text":"我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原先你原本想投資的設備後來"},{"start":359.853,"end":365.218,"text":"大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年114年度的預算是多少"},{"start":377.329,"end":387.573,"text":"本來是編5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對 然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦 這個網路犯罪啦 嚴重啦"},{"start":404.338,"end":420.595,"text":"那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼"},{"start":421.311,"end":450.871,"text":"我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同"},{"start":451.571,"end":478.004,"text":"所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上"},{"start":479.153,"end":492.024,"text":"是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃"},{"start":500.591,"end":517.335,"text":"你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算"},{"start":518.996,"end":536.738,"text":"這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎"},{"start":538.239,"end":558.284,"text":"不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的"},{"start":559.404,"end":585.268,"text":"使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具"},{"start":586.168,"end":611.842,"text":"這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話"},{"start":612.742,"end":634.75,"text":"所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個"},{"start":642.537,"end":670.743,"text":"這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定"},{"start":672.546,"end":684.176,"text":"這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定"},{"start":685.776,"end":704.984,"text":"有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準 集合機制這些我們能夠"},{"start":706.084,"end":719.238,"text":"能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時57分）主席、各位同仁。今天本委員會安排要處理114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、法務部及所屬主管機關相關的預算凍結案件，我們要來進行討論跟處理，我們就看到在去年預算審查過程中，今天只找四個單位來，預算凍結案就高達39案，監察院1案、人事行政總處7案、考試院8案、法務部23案，總共加起來39案，我只有6加2、8分鐘的時間要討論39案，實在是紙短情長，所以我沒有辦法一個一個來討論。今天非常難得監察院的李秘書長，還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院司法及法制委員會，但是很抱歉，今天沒有辦法讓你們上臺，沒有時間，共39案，討論不到你們的案子。","主席，我是不是先請調查局的陳局長？"],["主席（王委員義川代）：請陳局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：局長好。很抱歉，我們今天有39案，但是在39案裡面，有一個案子我個人特別關心，因為這個從立法開始就是我們司法及法制委員會處理，到你們編列預算、到它被凍結、到現在看看能不能執行，這正好是屬於調查局的預算，所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：這是本委員會負責審查，並在去年7月31號由我們總統公布的通訊保障及監察法修正條文，是去年7月由本委員會通過、總統公告實施的通訊保障及監察法，其中第十四條之一裡面有關網路流量紀錄的系統，第十四條之一第六款有法源依據：「網路流量紀錄系統之設置方式、保存方式、保存期間、查詢之作業程序、調取之項目、監督、費額及其他相關事項之辦法，由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之。」也就是說，這個是法源依據，有關於我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的作業，這個是已經……"],["陳局長白立：目前是有法源。"],["沈委員發惠：對，有法源依據。但是有法源依據，我們必須要有後續的這些預算……"],["陳局長白立：要建置。"],["沈委員發惠：對！相關的設備你要設置啊！不是我有一個法說要保留這些網路流量紀錄，結果不用設備就可以保留嗎？所以接下來，在法源通過、有法源依據之後，我們就應該要儘速地編列跟設置相關設備的經費，在這一次法務部的凍結案裡面，我看到你們書面報告的第二十案，尤其是近日網路的犯罪，可以說它不像傳統的犯罪型態，本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪，就是一個重大挑戰了，所以在這些重大挑戰裡面一些相關的經費，我個人認為是相當的重要。"],["陳局長白立：是、是。"],["沈委員發惠：這樣的經費被凍結、被刪除，我個人都認為，每一個委員不分黨派大家都在這裡喊要打詐、要打詐，大家在很短的時間內就有很高度的共識，通過打詐四法、通訊保障及監察法，給了法源依據，但是在設置相關設備的時候，預算編出來就把你們砍了，有的就砍掉了、刪除了，有的凍結了，像今天我要討論的這個就是凍結的。我知道有一筆，我剛剛講第二十案，它是由調查局來主管，但是我看這整個，它是在一個大計畫……"],["陳局長白立：一個大計畫裡面。"],["沈委員發惠：網路科技運用精進計畫嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個計畫不是由調查局主政的嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是警政署。"],["沈委員發惠：是警政署主政的，一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫，裡面很小一部分由調查局這邊來執行。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我看原本整個計畫的預算裡面，調查局……"],["陳局長白立：今年本來是編5億400萬。"],["沈委員發惠：最早整個計畫當時你們提報的建置費用是12億，最早是12億8,300萬。"],["陳局長白立：是，是分年的。"],["沈委員發惠：對，分年，整個總計畫是12億，但是後來我們因為……後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：對，後來降成8億。"],["沈委員發惠：最主要的原因是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：因為整個設備還有技術等等的投資，我們也是儘量跟……"],["沈委員發惠：有一些跟外部機關大家共用啦，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["沈委員發惠：有一些你原本想投資的設備，後來大家共用了一些設備，所以你們這個計畫從12億8,300萬，但你們在正式核定的時候，其實你們已經調降了……"],["陳局長白立：已經降到最小範圍了。"],["沈委員發惠：調到最小的8億了，那8億裡面你們分年執行，今年114年度的預算是多少？"],["陳局長白立：本來是編5億400萬。"],["沈委員發惠：5億400萬？"],["陳局長白立：但統刪的時候，其實這一筆預算在統刪的時候已經被刪了3,944.8萬了，等於……"],["沈委員發惠：統刪的時候，剩下4億6,455萬，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對，然後又被凍了2,500萬。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以我們今天要處理這2,500萬嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這整個建置，大家都在講要打詐，網路犯罪嚴重，但是卻把我們要建置的預算凍結了，現在最重要的是這整個8億的部分到底是要做什麼？"],["陳局長白立：這整個計畫前端是警政署建置的，就是包管，它是把所有三大電信業者這些網路資訊流量，全部通通都儲存起來，我們後端就是去抓那個資料來這邊做分析，這個分析可以讓我們得到什麼？譬如說現在有很多網路的犯罪，它的IP的位置是在哪裡？如果是不同的IP的話，它有沒有勾連到相同的位置等等……"],["沈委員發惠：所以整個是由警政署做，但後端的不只法務部調查局要做啦！"],["陳局長白立：後端分成兩部分，警政署也有做後端的分析，調查局也有做後端的分析，我們就是只取後端分析的那一小部分出來做而已。"],["沈委員發惠：所以後端主要就是……但這個部分，我看到你們有一個電信網路流量紀錄系統的概念驗證，事實上已經發包執行？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分不包括在這個預算裡面？有點像試辦？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，這個等於有點像工程前期的設計規劃。"],["沈委員發惠：你們招標的預算是1,790萬。"],["陳局長白立：那個已經執行掉了。"],["沈委員發惠：已經執行掉了嘛？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們一定要先做一個概念驗證，看看我們這樣子想的，到底實際上能不能做得到，這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以的。"],["沈委員發惠：這是可以做到，這次的預算跟之前採購的相比，這個的具體內容及效益如何？有沒有重複投資或資源浪費？我們過去已經跟中華電信執行過了？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：那後續的這些，是不是除了中華電信以外，對於其他的電信系統業者，我們也要進行這樣的相關驗證嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不用。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我們這個系統最主要是……剛剛你有強調它是有關這些網路行為的關聯分析、有關一些多重事件的比對，大概就是這些資安事件的追查，還有這些假訊息、認知作戰，還有最重要的，使用VPN的這些匿蹤工具，你剛剛說要查出它的IP位置，這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛？對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個系統建置以後，我們預期有哪一些類型的案件？有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升……"],["陳局長白立：只要是在網路上，它整個犯罪過程有經過網路的，這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分，我希望等一下如果進入預算解凍的階段，每一個不分黨派的委員上來都說要打詐、要打詐，我們也通過了這些法令，法源依據也都給了，但徒有法源依據，不給經費，沒有這些相關的設備來執行網路流量的紀錄系統，這等於是大家嘴巴都在講空話，所以我希望等一下在預算解凍的時候，大家能夠讓相關的這些資安機關順利的來執行。"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：最後再一點點時間。因為這個也是跟這個案子相關，我過去一直很很關心，2017年司法改革國是會議的時候，提出應該要設置國家級的證物保管機關，這個國家級的證物保管機關，我們現在要做的有關網路流量紀錄的調取，其相關的這些整合數位證據的監管，我們要再納入我剛剛所講的這個國家級的證物保管中心，在這樣的看法之下，我們有沒有制訂這些相關的內部資料使用、分析跟保存、銷毀的相關流程及辦法？我們有沒有制訂？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，將來資料的分析都是要令狀主義，然後這些資料取下來了以後，會有一個完整的資料保存的相關規定。"],["沈委員發惠：有一些辦法要訂定啦！有一些辦法現在是沒有的喔！我剛剛講的這些資料，它如何使用、分析，它如何保存、如何銷毀，這些相關的子法規定都還沒有，辦法都還沒有。"],["陳局長白立：是，這個都必須要訂。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分，我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準、稽核機制，我們能夠儘快先制訂這些相關辦法，我是希望你們能夠在3個月內針對你們訂定的計畫，把你們制訂的情形提交一個書面報告來給我，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}}