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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:00,291\n有請顧部長,謝謝有請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:08,996 --> 00:00:09,336\n是陳偉豪\n\n3\n00:00:39,176 --> 00:01:02,404\n那從這個之後呢開始有做一些清查那清查之後呢又發現有這個瑞恩二型無人機的這個通信模組那預防我待會再說就是說呢現在對這兩件事情我們的應酬是什麼然後以及是否可以說明一下就是為什麼這樣的一個事情等於是一再發生我先請中院稍微做一個說明各位報告這兩個都是我們在\n\n4\n00:01:03,861 --> 00:01:30,245\n驗收階段的時候我們主動發現然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨好那這種事情就是說呢當然我們都知道就是說廠商他有可能會有這些事物啦那但是我們現在這個相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子就是說除了契約本身之外我們對於廠商是什麼時候會叫他說那你要做更換那什麼時候呢可能會有相對應的比如說解約啊等等之類的\n\n5\n00:01:31,364 --> 00:01:47,235\n跟委員報告,我先講採購室的這個部分,因為在我這個8月30號的時候,我跟採購室他們做了很多的討論,那我們現在就是有一個另班這個國軍採購金融大陸地區香港澳門產品的年級禮業,\n\n6\n00:01:48,987 --> 00:02:14,235\n驗收的一個作業指導那這個要求要全軍就要來遵循那杜絕紅色供應鏈來滲入我們的主要的武器跟裝備那以照這個的部分我們就會有一些就是說在驗收的時候從開始的階段那包括茶廠然後包括這個文件然後包括\n\n7\n00:02:16,478 --> 00:02:34,924\n進口保管等文件然後產地證明等等然後另外在驗收的時候要如何來進行相關的這個查驗那有一些要進行一些破壞性的檢驗那有一些就要進行全面性的檢驗等等的這些相關的一些規定來做\n\n8\n00:02:36,504 --> 00:03:00,618\n基本上來講,我們以無人機這個來講,我們就採全機飛鴻的這樣一個來講我們所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件,我們都要求不可以用大陸製品那個案的企業也會定名,包括剛剛講的茶廠、交貨驗所要提供這些相關的證明文件\n\n9\n00:03:01,278 --> 00:03:21,426\n然後我們剛剛也講了,我們會進行檢驗,檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等,這些都有一些綠定那剛剛總會員也提到了,因為這兩型都是在驗收的時候,這個都是一個原型的沒有量產的階段\n\n10\n00:03:24,447 --> 00:03:47,877\n所以在原型的時候他再交火我們就要進行檢驗那以後量產的時候剛剛講的一系列的程序都要來加以嚴格的管控部長我追問一下就是說呢剛剛有點像是就是說我們這個主動有辦法查的這個機制那也的確有這個機制存在所以這個被發現嘛那我現在想問就是標準因為剛剛比較快速的講過去就是說現在我們對非紅這件事情非常的強調\n\n11\n00:03:48,737 --> 00:04:09,893\n那它有可能就是說我們對於哪一些是要非紅就是這一個的標準是不是一致因為如果說這個標準是清楚一致的話在第一線的人員他們沒有決定的空間這個就是不行這個就是可以這是第一個嘛然後第二個就是說它上下游的這些廠商哪一些廠商它必須是不能夠是中資比如說像這個樣子\n\n12\n00:04:10,934 --> 00:04:23,087\n就是說這個相對應的規範大概在一兩個月前我們有問採購公司就是說是不是我們現在這一個規範是能夠比較清楚明白的讓大家知道對我們有一個分類這個詳細的分類要不要請採購公司說明一下\n\n13\n00:04:24,412 --> 00:04:48,292\n委員好我是採購室主任跟委員簡單報告我們針對錄製品的部分我們並不是所有東西全部都是進錄製品我們有區分分五類比如說第一類是進原料產品和廠牌第二類是進到這個原件剛剛講這個無人機它就屬於我們第二類也就是我們會查到它的原件不能夠有錄製品我們分五類\n\n14\n00:04:49,774 --> 00:05:12,708\n因為我現在在想的事情就是說因為畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常的多那跟國防部合作越來越多嘛因為我們現在案子也變多了那這個狀況之下呢這個民間在要做標案啊或者等等之類的時候他對於這個標準一定是需要非常的一致那如果說這個標準過度嚴格比如說你什麼東西都完全都是不能夠中國製的時候那其實說真的廠商也很難做嘛\n\n15\n00:05:13,328 --> 00:05:35,628\n所以到底哪些可以哪些不行像這個案子裡面就有提到說這個就是下面這個新聞在2023年的新聞就是說這個有中國製製品那當時的中科院是說這個是屬於被動的原件那我們當然了解被動原件的問題但是一般人就是我們要怎麼去溝通就是讓國民知道就是說到底是哪一些原件可以哪一些原件不行這個標準其實非常的重要\n\n16\n00:05:37,594 --> 00:05:53,495\n剛剛採購室主任有講了,我們分成五類,我舉個例子,桌子絕對不需要說廢物資,有一些我想大家比較清楚的,具有傳輸功能的,那我們當然就是\n\n17\n00:05:54,175 --> 00:06:22,448\n確定一定是不能夠用錄製品所以剛剛講的因為五類的這個標準的部分它有蠻詳細的一個綠定那因為我們現在這個採購的這個人員有各層級所以我們將這個綠定清楚以後那它要適用到哪一類這個部分要把它弄清楚然後屬於哪一類你就按照那一類來進行控管大概意思就是如此就是說比如說無人機本身這個當然是比較敏感\n\n18\n00:06:23,388 --> 00:06:45,575\n儲存的這個箱子可能等等之類的或者旁邊的廚師等等之類的這可能就是有不一樣的規範對那現在無人機是全部全部才無人機這個整體本身好那接下來就是說這個就是這個飛鴻工業的這個規範這個我剛剛有問過那因為這個教召的管道跟這個後備的站立剛剛其實前面據聞有問過還有強化國土安全韌性\n\n19\n00:06:46,336 --> 00:06:50,584\n因為今天還有解凍案所以後面這兩個我可能就不多問了我們下次再繼續進行謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t291\t有請顧部長,謝謝有請顧部長\n8996\t9336\t是 陳偉豪\n39176\t62404\t那從這個之後呢開始有做一些清查那清查之後呢又發現有這個瑞恩二型無人機的這個通信模組那預防我待會再說就是說呢現在對這兩件事情我們的應酬是什麼然後以及是否可以說明一下就是為什麼這樣的一個事情等於是一再發生我先請中院稍微做一個說明各位報告這兩個都是我們在\n63861\t90245\t驗收階段的時候我們主動發現然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨好那這種事情就是說呢當然我們都知道就是說廠商他有可能會有這些事物啦那但是我們現在這個相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子就是說除了契約本身之外我們對於廠商是什麼時候會叫他說那你要做更換那什麼時候呢可能會有相對應的比如說解約啊等等之類的\n91364\t107235\t跟委員報告,我先講採購室的這個部分,因為在我這個8月30號的時候,我跟採購室他們做了很多的討論,那我們現在就是有一個另班這個國軍採購金融大陸地區香港澳門產品的年級禮業,\n108987\t134235\t驗收的一個作業指導那這個要求要全軍就要來遵循那杜絕紅色供應鏈來滲入我們的主要的武器跟裝備那以照這個的部分我們就會有一些就是說在驗收的時候從開始的階段那包括茶廠然後包括這個文件然後包括\n136478\t154924\t進口保管等文件然後產地證明等等然後另外在驗收的時候要如何來進行相關的這個查驗那有一些要進行一些破壞性的檢驗那有一些就要進行全面性的檢驗等等的這些相關的一些規定來做\n156504\t180618\t基本上來講,我們以無人機這個來講,我們就採全機飛鴻的這樣一個來講我們所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件,我們都要求不可以用大陸製品那個案的企業也會定名,包括剛剛講的茶廠、交貨驗所要提供這些相關的證明文件\n181278\t201426\t然後我們剛剛也講了,我們會進行檢驗,檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等,這些都有一些綠定那剛剛總會員也提到了,因為這兩型都是在驗收的時候,這個都是一個原型的沒有量產的階段\n204447\t227877\t所以在原型的時候他再交火我們就要進行檢驗那以後量產的時候剛剛講的一系列的程序都要來加以嚴格的管控部長我追問一下就是說呢剛剛有點像是就是說我們這個主動有辦法查的這個機制那也的確有這個機制存在所以這個被發現嘛那我現在想問就是標準因為剛剛比較快速的講過去就是說現在我們對非紅這件事情非常的強調\n228737\t249893\t那它有可能就是說我們對於哪一些是要非紅就是這一個的標準是不是一致因為如果說這個標準是清楚一致的話在第一線的人員他們沒有決定的空間這個就是不行這個就是可以這是第一個嘛然後第二個就是說它上下游的這些廠商哪一些廠商它必須是不能夠是中資比如說像這個樣子\n250934\t263087\t就是說這個相對應的規範大概在一兩個月前我們有問採購公司就是說是不是我們現在這一個規範是能夠比較清楚明白的讓大家知道對 我們有一個分類這個詳細的分類要不要請採購公司說明一下\n264412\t288292\t委員好我是採購室主任跟委員簡單報告我們針對錄製品的部分我們並不是所有東西全部都是進錄製品我們有區分分五類比如說第一類是進原料產品和廠牌第二類是進到這個原件剛剛講這個無人機它就屬於我們第二類也就是我們會查到它的原件不能夠有錄製品我們分五類\n289774\t312708\t因為我現在在想的事情就是說因為畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常的多那跟國防部合作越來越多嘛因為我們現在案子也變多了那這個狀況之下呢這個民間在要做標案啊或者等等之類的時候他對於這個標準一定是需要非常的一致那如果說這個標準過度嚴格比如說你什麼東西都完全都是不能夠中國製的時候那其實說真的廠商也很難做嘛\n313328\t335628\t所以到底哪些可以哪些不行像這個案子裡面就有提到說這個就是下面這個新聞在2023年的新聞就是說這個有中國製製品那當時的中科院是說這個是屬於被動的原件那我們當然了解被動原件的問題但是一般人就是我們要怎麼去溝通就是讓國民知道就是說到底是哪一些原件可以哪一些原件不行這個標準其實非常的重要\n337594\t353495\t剛剛採購室主任有講了,我們分成五類,我舉個例子,桌子絕對不需要說廢物資,有一些我想大家比較清楚的,具有傳輸功能的,那我們當然就是\n354175\t382448\t確定一定是不能夠用錄製品所以剛剛講的因為五類的這個標準的部分它有蠻詳細的一個綠定那因為我們現在這個採購的這個人員有各層級所以我們將這個綠定清楚以後那它要適用到哪一類這個部分要把它弄清楚然後屬於哪一類你就按照那一類來進行控管大概意思就是如此就是說比如說無人機本身這個當然是比較敏感\n383388\t405575\t儲存的這個箱子可能等等之類的或者旁邊的廚師等等之類的這可能就是有不一樣的規範對那現在無人機是全部全部才無人機這個整體本身好那接下來就是說這個就是這個飛鴻工業的這個規範這個我剛剛有問過那因為這個教召的管道跟這個後備的站立剛剛其實前面據聞有問過還有強化國土安全韌性\n406336\t410584\t因為今天還有解凍案所以後面這兩個我可能就不多問了我們下次再繼續進行謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","txt":"有請顧部長,謝謝有請顧部長\n是 陳偉豪\n那從這個之後呢開始有做一些清查那清查之後呢又發現有這個瑞恩二型無人機的這個通信模組那預防我待會再說就是說呢現在對這兩件事情我們的應酬是什麼然後以及是否可以說明一下就是為什麼這樣的一個事情等於是一再發生我先請中院稍微做一個說明各位報告這兩個都是我們在\n驗收階段的時候我們主動發現然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨好那這種事情就是說呢當然我們都知道就是說廠商他有可能會有這些事物啦那但是我們現在這個相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子就是說除了契約本身之外我們對於廠商是什麼時候會叫他說那你要做更換那什麼時候呢可能會有相對應的比如說解約啊等等之類的\n跟委員報告,我先講採購室的這個部分,因為在我這個8月30號的時候,我跟採購室他們做了很多的討論,那我們現在就是有一個另班這個國軍採購金融大陸地區香港澳門產品的年級禮業,\n驗收的一個作業指導那這個要求要全軍就要來遵循那杜絕紅色供應鏈來滲入我們的主要的武器跟裝備那以照這個的部分我們就會有一些就是說在驗收的時候從開始的階段那包括茶廠然後包括這個文件然後包括\n進口保管等文件然後產地證明等等然後另外在驗收的時候要如何來進行相關的這個查驗那有一些要進行一些破壞性的檢驗那有一些就要進行全面性的檢驗等等的這些相關的一些規定來做\n基本上來講,我們以無人機這個來講,我們就採全機飛鴻的這樣一個來講我們所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件,我們都要求不可以用大陸製品那個案的企業也會定名,包括剛剛講的茶廠、交貨驗所要提供這些相關的證明文件\n然後我們剛剛也講了,我們會進行檢驗,檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等,這些都有一些綠定那剛剛總會員也提到了,因為這兩型都是在驗收的時候,這個都是一個原型的沒有量產的階段\n所以在原型的時候他再交火我們就要進行檢驗那以後量產的時候剛剛講的一系列的程序都要來加以嚴格的管控部長我追問一下就是說呢剛剛有點像是就是說我們這個主動有辦法查的這個機制那也的確有這個機制存在所以這個被發現嘛那我現在想問就是標準因為剛剛比較快速的講過去就是說現在我們對非紅這件事情非常的強調\n那它有可能就是說我們對於哪一些是要非紅就是這一個的標準是不是一致因為如果說這個標準是清楚一致的話在第一線的人員他們沒有決定的空間這個就是不行這個就是可以這是第一個嘛然後第二個就是說它上下游的這些廠商哪一些廠商它必須是不能夠是中資比如說像這個樣子\n就是說這個相對應的規範大概在一兩個月前我們有問採購公司就是說是不是我們現在這一個規範是能夠比較清楚明白的讓大家知道對 我們有一個分類這個詳細的分類要不要請採購公司說明一下\n委員好我是採購室主任跟委員簡單報告我們針對錄製品的部分我們並不是所有東西全部都是進錄製品我們有區分分五類比如說第一類是進原料產品和廠牌第二類是進到這個原件剛剛講這個無人機它就屬於我們第二類也就是我們會查到它的原件不能夠有錄製品我們分五類\n因為我現在在想的事情就是說因為畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常的多那跟國防部合作越來越多嘛因為我們現在案子也變多了那這個狀況之下呢這個民間在要做標案啊或者等等之類的時候他對於這個標準一定是需要非常的一致那如果說這個標準過度嚴格比如說你什麼東西都完全都是不能夠中國製的時候那其實說真的廠商也很難做嘛\n所以到底哪些可以哪些不行像這個案子裡面就有提到說這個就是下面這個新聞在2023年的新聞就是說這個有中國製製品那當時的中科院是說這個是屬於被動的原件那我們當然了解被動原件的問題但是一般人就是我們要怎麼去溝通就是讓國民知道就是說到底是哪一些原件可以哪一些原件不行這個標準其實非常的重要\n剛剛採購室主任有講了,我們分成五類,我舉個例子,桌子絕對不需要說廢物資,有一些我想大家比較清楚的,具有傳輸功能的,那我們當然就是\n確定一定是不能夠用錄製品所以剛剛講的因為五類的這個標準的部分它有蠻詳細的一個綠定那因為我們現在這個採購的這個人員有各層級所以我們將這個綠定清楚以後那它要適用到哪一類這個部分要把它弄清楚然後屬於哪一類你就按照那一類來進行控管大概意思就是如此就是說比如說無人機本身這個當然是比較敏感\n儲存的這個箱子可能等等之類的或者旁邊的廚師等等之類的這可能就是有不一樣的規範對那現在無人機是全部全部才無人機這個整體本身好那接下來就是說這個就是這個飛鴻工業的這個規範這個我剛剛有問過那因為這個教召的管道跟這個後備的站立剛剛其實前面據聞有問過還有強化國土安全韌性\n因為今天還有解凍案所以後面這兩個我可能就不多問了我們下次再繼續進行謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:00.291\n有請顧部長,謝謝有請顧部長\n\n00:08.996 --> 00:09.336\n是陳偉豪\n\n00:39.176 --> 01:02.404\n那從這個之後呢開始有做一些清查那清查之後呢又發現有這個瑞恩二型無人機的這個通信模組那預防我待會再說就是說呢現在對這兩件事情我們的應酬是什麼然後以及是否可以說明一下就是為什麼這樣的一個事情等於是一再發生我先請中院稍微做一個說明各位報告這兩個都是我們在\n\n01:03.861 --> 01:30.245\n驗收階段的時候我們主動發現然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨好那這種事情就是說呢當然我們都知道就是說廠商他有可能會有這些事物啦那但是我們現在這個相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子就是說除了契約本身之外我們對於廠商是什麼時候會叫他說那你要做更換那什麼時候呢可能會有相對應的比如說解約啊等等之類的\n\n01:31.364 --> 01:47.235\n跟委員報告,我先講採購室的這個部分,因為在我這個8月30號的時候,我跟採購室他們做了很多的討論,那我們現在就是有一個另班這個國軍採購金融大陸地區香港澳門產品的年級禮業,\n\n01:48.987 --> 02:14.235\n驗收的一個作業指導那這個要求要全軍就要來遵循那杜絕紅色供應鏈來滲入我們的主要的武器跟裝備那以照這個的部分我們就會有一些就是說在驗收的時候從開始的階段那包括茶廠然後包括這個文件然後包括\n\n02:16.478 --> 02:34.924\n進口保管等文件然後產地證明等等然後另外在驗收的時候要如何來進行相關的這個查驗那有一些要進行一些破壞性的檢驗那有一些就要進行全面性的檢驗等等的這些相關的一些規定來做\n\n02:36.504 --> 03:00.618\n基本上來講,我們以無人機這個來講,我們就採全機飛鴻的這樣一個來講我們所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件,我們都要求不可以用大陸製品那個案的企業也會定名,包括剛剛講的茶廠、交貨驗所要提供這些相關的證明文件\n\n03:01.278 --> 03:21.426\n然後我們剛剛也講了,我們會進行檢驗,檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等,這些都有一些綠定那剛剛總會員也提到了,因為這兩型都是在驗收的時候,這個都是一個原型的沒有量產的階段\n\n03:24.447 --> 03:47.877\n所以在原型的時候他再交火我們就要進行檢驗那以後量產的時候剛剛講的一系列的程序都要來加以嚴格的管控部長我追問一下就是說呢剛剛有點像是就是說我們這個主動有辦法查的這個機制那也的確有這個機制存在所以這個被發現嘛那我現在想問就是標準因為剛剛比較快速的講過去就是說現在我們對非紅這件事情非常的強調\n\n03:48.737 --> 04:09.893\n那它有可能就是說我們對於哪一些是要非紅就是這一個的標準是不是一致因為如果說這個標準是清楚一致的話在第一線的人員他們沒有決定的空間這個就是不行這個就是可以這是第一個嘛然後第二個就是說它上下游的這些廠商哪一些廠商它必須是不能夠是中資比如說像這個樣子\n\n04:10.934 --> 04:23.087\n就是說這個相對應的規範大概在一兩個月前我們有問採購公司就是說是不是我們現在這一個規範是能夠比較清楚明白的讓大家知道對我們有一個分類這個詳細的分類要不要請採購公司說明一下\n\n04:24.412 --> 04:48.292\n委員好我是採購室主任跟委員簡單報告我們針對錄製品的部分我們並不是所有東西全部都是進錄製品我們有區分分五類比如說第一類是進原料產品和廠牌第二類是進到這個原件剛剛講這個無人機它就屬於我們第二類也就是我們會查到它的原件不能夠有錄製品我們分五類\n\n04:49.774 --> 05:12.708\n因為我現在在想的事情就是說因為畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常的多那跟國防部合作越來越多嘛因為我們現在案子也變多了那這個狀況之下呢這個民間在要做標案啊或者等等之類的時候他對於這個標準一定是需要非常的一致那如果說這個標準過度嚴格比如說你什麼東西都完全都是不能夠中國製的時候那其實說真的廠商也很難做嘛\n\n05:13.328 --> 05:35.628\n所以到底哪些可以哪些不行像這個案子裡面就有提到說這個就是下面這個新聞在2023年的新聞就是說這個有中國製製品那當時的中科院是說這個是屬於被動的原件那我們當然了解被動原件的問題但是一般人就是我們要怎麼去溝通就是讓國民知道就是說到底是哪一些原件可以哪一些原件不行這個標準其實非常的重要\n\n05:37.594 --> 05:53.495\n剛剛採購室主任有講了,我們分成五類,我舉個例子,桌子絕對不需要說廢物資,有一些我想大家比較清楚的,具有傳輸功能的,那我們當然就是\n\n05:54.175 --> 06:22.448\n確定一定是不能夠用錄製品所以剛剛講的因為五類的這個標準的部分它有蠻詳細的一個綠定那因為我們現在這個採購的這個人員有各層級所以我們將這個綠定清楚以後那它要適用到哪一類這個部分要把它弄清楚然後屬於哪一類你就按照那一類來進行控管大概意思就是如此就是說比如說無人機本身這個當然是比較敏感\n\n06:23.388 --> 06:45.575\n儲存的這個箱子可能等等之類的或者旁邊的廚師等等之類的這可能就是有不一樣的規範對那現在無人機是全部全部才無人機這個整體本身好那接下來就是說這個就是這個飛鴻工業的這個規範這個我剛剛有問過那因為這個教召的管道跟這個後備的站立剛剛其實前面據聞有問過還有強化國土安全韌性\n\n06:46.336 --> 06:50.584\n因為今天還有解凍案所以後面這兩個我可能就不多問了我們下次再繼續進行謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.291,"text":"有請顧部長,謝謝有請顧部長"},{"start":8.996,"end":9.336,"text":"是 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謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":127,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時28分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長，今天有一些關於解凍的案件，我認為跟我們之後的議題比較有相關性的，也是最近的新聞，就是關於銳鳶二型的通訊模組裡面中國製的晶片。我先講就我所知，在早期的時候，勁蜂一型攻擊無人機的通訊模組有用中國的元件，當時在詢問的過程當中，說這是一個比較被動的元件，從這個之後開始有做一些清查，清查之後又發現銳鳶二型無人機的通信模組，預防的部分我待會再說。現在對這兩件事情，我們的應處是什麼？是否可以說明一下為什麼這樣的事情一再發生？"],["顧部長立雄：我先請中科院稍微做個說明。"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，這兩個都是我們在驗收階段的時候，我們主動發現，然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨。"],["沈委員伯洋：這種事情就是，當然我們都知道廠商可能會有這些失誤，但我們現在相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子？除了契約本身之外，我們對於廠商什麼時候會叫他要更換？什麼時候可能會有相對應的比如解約等等之類的？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我先講採購室這個部分，在8月30號的時候，我跟採購室做了很多討論，我們現在就是另頒「國軍採購禁用大陸地區、香港、澳門產品認定及履約驗收作業指導」，要求全軍遵循，杜絕紅色供應鏈滲入我們主要的武器跟裝備。照這個部分，我們就會有一些就是從開始的階段，包括查廠，包括進口報關等文件，然後產地證明等等，另外在驗收的時候要如何進行相關的查驗，有的要進行一些破壞性的檢驗，有一些就要進行全面性檢驗等等，依相關規定來做。","基本上以無人機來講，我們就採全機非紅這樣的規定，所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件，我們都要求不可以用大陸製品，個案的契約也會訂明，包括剛剛講的查廠，交貨驗收要提供這些相關的證明文件。然後我們剛剛也講了，我們會進行檢驗，檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等，這些都有一些律定。剛剛中科院也提到了，這是在驗收的時候發現的，主要它們這兩型都是原型的、沒有量產的階段，所以在原型的時候，他交貨我們就要進行檢驗，以後量產的時候，剛剛講的一系列程序都要加以嚴格管控，是這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長，我追問一下，剛剛有點像就是我們主動有辦法查的這個機制，那也的確有這個機制存在，所以這個被發現，我現在想問的是標準，因為剛剛比較快速地講過去，現在我們對非紅這件事情非常強調，我們對於哪一些是要非紅的這個標準是不是一致？如果這個標準是清楚一致的話，在第一線的人員沒有決定的空間，這個就是不行、那個就是可以，這是第一個。第二個，上下游的這些廠商，哪一些廠商必須不能夠是中資，比如像這個樣子，就是相對應的規範，大概在一、兩個月前我們有問採購室，是不是我們現在這一個規範能夠比較清楚明白地讓大家知道？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們有一個分類，這個詳細的分類要不要請採購室說明一下？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是採購室主任。跟委員簡單報告，針對陸製品的部分，我們並不是所有東西全部都是禁陸製品。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這很重要。"],["趙主任亞平：我們有區分五類，比如第一類是禁原料、產品和廠牌；第二類是禁到元件，剛剛講的無人機就屬於第二類，也就是我們會查到它的元件不能夠有陸製品。我們分五類。"],["沈委員伯洋：是，我在想的事情是，畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常多，跟國防部合作越來越多，因為現在案子也變多了。這個狀況之下，民間要做標案等等之類的時候，他對於這個標準，一定需要非常地一致。如果這個標準過度嚴格，比如什麼東西完全都不能夠有中國製的時候，其實說真的廠商也很難做，所以到底哪些可以、哪些不行？像這個案子裡面就有提到，下面這個新聞，在2023年的新聞就說這個有中國製品，當時中科院說這個是屬於被動元件。我們當然了解被動元件的問題，但是就一般人，我們要怎麼去溝通，讓國民知道到底哪一些元件可以、哪一些元件不行？這個標準其實非常重要。"],["顧部長立雄：有，剛剛採購室主任也講了，我們分成五類。我舉個例子，桌子絕對不需要非陸製，有一些我想大家很清楚的就是具有傳輸功能的，我們當然就確定一定不能夠用陸製品，剛剛講五類的標準有蠻詳細的律定。我們現在的採購人員有各層級，我們律定清楚以後，看他是適用哪一類，這個部分要把它弄清楚，屬於哪一類就按照那一類進行控管。意思就是如此。"],["沈委員伯洋：譬如無人機本身當然比較敏感，它儲存的箱子等等之類的，或者是旁邊的除濕設備等等之類的，這些可能就有不一樣的規範。"],["顧部長立雄：對。現在無人機是全部採那個……無人機整體本身這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來是非紅供應鏈的規範，這個我剛剛有問過，因為教召管道和後備戰力前面俊宇委員有問過，還有強化國土安全韌性，因為今天還有解凍案，所以後面這兩個我就不多問了，我們下次再繼續討論。謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。部長先請回。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}}