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{\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 732.845, \"end\": 732.865, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 733.586, \"end\": 733.707, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 733.707, \"end\": 733.868, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 733.868, \"end\": 733.888, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:23,025\n我們的部長李委員好部長早今天想來問一下因為今天談的很多主題實際上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利二十六號意見書也講得非常的清楚所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說部長\n\n2\n00:00:27,347 --> 00:00:50,294\n我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒童參與非常的重要那當然我想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的氣候訴訟\n\n3\n00:00:51,658 --> 00:01:01,386\n其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人\n\n4\n00:01:02,699 --> 00:01:24,771\n評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若\n\n5\n00:01:27,182 --> 00:01:44,060\n謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者\n\n6\n00:01:44,821 --> 00:02:11,959\n他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢\n\n7\n00:02:12,614 --> 00:02:27,040\n就有一個對那個抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開一個論壇\n\n8\n00:02:30,495 --> 00:02:51,827\n就算了像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡邊他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼\n\n9\n00:02:56,710 --> 00:03:25,571\n你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與好報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務這樣做因為各位我們過去呢台灣對於這種調試計畫很多啦那沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去那我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好\n\n10\n00:03:26,171 --> 00:03:41,286\n對部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者或者是安置機構或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊\n\n11\n00:03:44,409 --> 00:04:01,505\n所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長\n\n12\n00:04:05,368 --> 00:04:29,333\n一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思\n\n13\n00:04:32,893 --> 00:04:43,225\n謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢\n\n14\n00:04:53,803 --> 00:05:12,482\n第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在\n\n15\n00:05:13,282 --> 00:05:40,994\n不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會\n\n16\n00:05:43,503 --> 00:05:57,875\n報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢\n\n17\n00:06:08,323 --> 00:06:33,503\n要有善的环境听取他们的意见然后呢等到他们表达意见的时候你们还要能够去回应他们我也希望这个人力太少以外还有一个我希望你们做到这几个原则再想问一下延续刚刚我们讨论的儿少跟青少年的参与问题因为除了人环境部的人权委会我更担心的是现在你们针对儿少跟青少年参与\n\n18\n00:06:33,843 --> 00:06:56,605\n大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院\n\n19\n00:06:57,465 --> 00:07:21,267\n對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動\n\n20\n00:07:22,096 --> 00:07:28,105\n那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想部長你們後邊到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊\n\n21\n00:07:29,426 --> 00:07:50,146\n報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有\n\n22\n00:07:52,708 --> 00:08:21,422\n有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活\n\n23\n00:08:22,659 --> 00:08:37,188\n大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題\n\n24\n00:08:39,365 --> 00:08:55,895\n主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育\n\n25\n00:08:56,927 --> 00:09:23,507\n再來次關心的是交通因為那跟息息相關可是環境部息息相關嗎息息相關可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列管而是要參與賠利這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了可是似乎這個\n\n26\n00:09:25,428 --> 00:09:49,113\n到底這些解方已經給你們你們有沒有做好這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那台灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較順順的老闆我要提醒你因為\n\n27\n00:09:49,833 --> 00:10:12,832\n明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有\n\n28\n00:10:13,232 --> 00:10:42,329\n所处的环境的品质你们2017年这样回答那当然当时事实上是环保署那我们再来看你们2022年的回答下一页2022年呢人家的结论性意见第二次国来审查的时候他也是再次的提醒你们可是似乎你们只有针对第一项有回答第二项第三项一样的他期待还是要有保有有效的参与\n\n29\n00:10:43,191 --> 00:11:09,618\n要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的\n\n30\n00:11:12,102 --> 00:11:34,344\n相關的法規目前好沒有那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎\n\n31\n00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:38,426\n那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響\n\n32\n00:11:44,737 --> 00:12:12,865\n結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制這才會是最理想的以上謝謝委員會列入考慮我們會來進行著手進行這個工作\n\n33\n00:12:13,586 --> 00:12:13,888\n再麻煩部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t23025\t我們的部長李委員好部長早今天想來問一下因為今天談的很多主題實際上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利二十六號意見書也講得非常的清楚所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說部長\n27347\t50294\t我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒童參與非常的重要那當然我想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的氣候訴訟\n51658\t61386\t其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人\n62699\t84771\t評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若\n87182\t104060\t謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者\n104821\t131959\t他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好 部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢\n132614\t147040\t就有一個對那個抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開一個論壇\n150495\t171827\t就算了 像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡邊他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長 你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼\n176710\t205571\t你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與好 報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務這樣做因為各位我們過去呢台灣對於這種調試計畫很多啦那沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去那我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好\n206171\t221286\t對 部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者或者是安置機構或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊\n224409\t241505\t所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長\n245368\t269333\t一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思\n272893\t283225\t謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢\n293803\t312482\t第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在\n313282\t340994\t不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會\n343503\t357875\t報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢 除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢\n368323\t393503\t要有善的环境听取他们的意见然后呢等到他们表达意见的时候你们还要能够去回应他们我也希望这个人力太少以外还有一个我希望你们做到这几个原则再想问一下延续刚刚我们讨论的儿少跟青少年的参与问题因为除了人环境部的人权委会我更担心的是现在你们针对儿少跟青少年参与\n393843\t416605\t大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院\n417465\t441267\t對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動\n442096\t448105\t那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想 部長你們後邊到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊\n449426\t470146\t報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有\n472708\t501422\t有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活\n502659\t517188\t大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題\n519365\t535895\t主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育\n536927\t563507\t再來次關心的是交通 因為那跟息息相關可是環境部息息相關嗎 息息相關 可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了 可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情 甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難 甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列管 而是要參與賠利 這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道 後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了 可是似乎這個\n565428\t589113\t到底這些解方已經給你們 你們有沒有做好 這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那台灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較順順的老闆我要提醒你 因為\n589833\t612832\t明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有\n613232\t642329\t所处的环境的品质你们2017年这样回答那当然当时事实上是环保署那我们再来看你们2022年的回答下一页2022年呢人家的结论性意见第二次国来审查的时候他也是再次的提醒你们可是似乎你们只有针对第一项有回答第二项第三项一样的他期待还是要有保有有效的参与\n643191\t669618\t要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的\n672102\t694344\t相關的法規目前 好沒有 那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎\n695100\t698426\t那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響\n704737\t732865\t結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制這才會是最理想的以上謝謝委員會列入考慮我們會來進行著手進行這個工作\n733586\t733888\t再麻煩部長\n","txt":"我們的部長李委員好部長早今天想來問一下因為今天談的很多主題實際上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利二十六號意見書也講得非常的清楚所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說部長\n我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒童參與非常的重要那當然我想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的氣候訴訟\n其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人\n評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若\n謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者\n他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好 部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢\n就有一個對那個抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開一個論壇\n就算了 像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡邊他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長 你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼\n你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與好 報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務這樣做因為各位我們過去呢台灣對於這種調試計畫很多啦那沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去那我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好\n對 部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者或者是安置機構或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊\n所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長\n一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思\n謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢\n第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在\n不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會\n報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢 除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢\n要有善的环境听取他们的意见然后呢等到他们表达意见的时候你们还要能够去回应他们我也希望这个人力太少以外还有一个我希望你们做到这几个原则再想问一下延续刚刚我们讨论的儿少跟青少年的参与问题因为除了人环境部的人权委会我更担心的是现在你们针对儿少跟青少年参与\n大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院\n對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動\n那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想 部長你們後邊到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊\n報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有\n有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活\n大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題\n主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育\n再來次關心的是交通 因為那跟息息相關可是環境部息息相關嗎 息息相關 可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了 可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情 甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難 甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列管 而是要參與賠利 這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道 後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了 可是似乎這個\n到底這些解方已經給你們 你們有沒有做好 這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那台灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較順順的老闆我要提醒你 因為\n明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有\n所处的环境的品质你们2017年这样回答那当然当时事实上是环保署那我们再来看你们2022年的回答下一页2022年呢人家的结论性意见第二次国来审查的时候他也是再次的提醒你们可是似乎你们只有针对第一项有回答第二项第三项一样的他期待还是要有保有有效的参与\n要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的\n相關的法規目前 好沒有 那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎\n那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響\n結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制這才會是最理想的以上謝謝委員會列入考慮我們會來進行著手進行這個工作\n再麻煩部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:23.025\n我們的部長李委員好部長早今天想來問一下因為今天談的很多主題實際上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利二十六號意見書也講得非常的清楚所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說部長\n\n00:27.347 --> 00:50.294\n我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒童參與非常的重要那當然我想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的氣候訴訟\n\n00:51.658 --> 01:01.386\n其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人\n\n01:02.699 --> 01:24.771\n評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若\n\n01:27.182 --> 01:44.060\n謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者\n\n01:44.821 --> 02:11.959\n他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢\n\n02:12.614 --> 02:27.040\n就有一個對那個抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開一個論壇\n\n02:30.495 --> 02:51.827\n就算了像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡邊他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼\n\n02:56.710 --> 03:25.571\n你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與好報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務這樣做因為各位我們過去呢台灣對於這種調試計畫很多啦那沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去那我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好\n\n03:26.171 --> 03:41.286\n對部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者或者是安置機構或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊\n\n03:44.409 --> 04:01.505\n所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長\n\n04:05.368 --> 04:29.333\n一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思\n\n04:32.893 --> 04:43.225\n謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢\n\n04:53.803 --> 05:12.482\n第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在\n\n05:13.282 --> 05:40.994\n不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會\n\n05:43.503 --> 05:57.875\n報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢\n\n06:08.323 --> 06:33.503\n要有善的环境听取他们的意见然后呢等到他们表达意见的时候你们还要能够去回应他们我也希望这个人力太少以外还有一个我希望你们做到这几个原则再想问一下延续刚刚我们讨论的儿少跟青少年的参与问题因为除了人环境部的人权委会我更担心的是现在你们针对儿少跟青少年参与\n\n06:33.843 --> 06:56.605\n大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院\n\n06:57.465 --> 07:21.267\n對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動\n\n07:22.096 --> 07:28.105\n那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想部長你們後邊到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊\n\n07:29.426 --> 07:50.146\n報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有\n\n07:52.708 --> 08:21.422\n有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活\n\n08:22.659 --> 08:37.188\n大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題\n\n08:39.365 --> 08:55.895\n主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育\n\n08:56.927 --> 09:23.507\n再來次關心的是交通因為那跟息息相關可是環境部息息相關嗎息息相關可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列管而是要參與賠利這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了可是似乎這個\n\n09:25.428 --> 09:49.113\n到底這些解方已經給你們你們有沒有做好這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那台灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較順順的老闆我要提醒你因為\n\n09:49.833 --> 10:12.832\n明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有\n\n10:13.232 --> 10:42.329\n所处的环境的品质你们2017年这样回答那当然当时事实上是环保署那我们再来看你们2022年的回答下一页2022年呢人家的结论性意见第二次国来审查的时候他也是再次的提醒你们可是似乎你们只有针对第一项有回答第二项第三项一样的他期待还是要有保有有效的参与\n\n10:43.191 --> 11:09.618\n要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的\n\n11:12.102 --> 11:34.344\n相關的法規目前好沒有那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎\n\n11:35.100 --> 11:38.426\n那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響\n\n11:44.737 --> 12:12.865\n結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制這才會是最理想的以上謝謝委員會列入考慮我們會來進行著手進行這個工作\n\n12:13.586 --> 12:13.888\n再麻煩部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":23.025,"text":"我們的部長李委員好部長早今天想來問一下因為今天談的很多主題實際上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利二十六號意見書也講得非常的清楚所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說部長"},{"start":27.347,"end":50.294,"text":"我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒童參與非常的重要那當然我想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的氣候訴訟"},{"start":51.658,"end":61.386,"text":"其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人"},{"start":62.699,"end":84.771,"text":"評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若"},{"start":87.182,"end":104.06,"text":"謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者"},{"start":104.821,"end":131.959,"text":"他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好 部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢"},{"start":132.614,"end":147.04,"text":"就有一個對那個抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開一個論壇"},{"start":150.495,"end":171.827,"text":"就算了 像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡邊他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長 你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼"},{"start":176.71,"end":205.571,"text":"你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與好 報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務這樣做因為各位我們過去呢台灣對於這種調試計畫很多啦那沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去那我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好"},{"start":206.171,"end":221.286,"text":"對 部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者或者是安置機構或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊"},{"start":224.409,"end":241.505,"text":"所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長"},{"start":245.368,"end":269.333,"text":"一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思"},{"start":272.893,"end":283.225,"text":"謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢"},{"start":293.803,"end":312.482,"text":"第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在"},{"start":313.282,"end":340.994,"text":"不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會"},{"start":343.503,"end":357.875,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢 除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢"},{"start":368.323,"end":393.503,"text":"要有善的环境听取他们的意见然后呢等到他们表达意见的时候你们还要能够去回应他们我也希望这个人力太少以外还有一个我希望你们做到这几个原则再想问一下延续刚刚我们讨论的儿少跟青少年的参与问题因为除了人环境部的人权委会我更担心的是现在你们针对儿少跟青少年参与"},{"start":393.843,"end":416.605,"text":"大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院"},{"start":417.465,"end":441.267,"text":"對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動"},{"start":442.096,"end":448.105,"text":"那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想 部長你們後邊到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊"},{"start":449.426,"end":470.146,"text":"報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有"},{"start":472.708,"end":501.422,"text":"有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活"},{"start":502.659,"end":517.188,"text":"大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題"},{"start":519.365,"end":535.895,"text":"主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育"},{"start":536.927,"end":563.507,"text":"再來次關心的是交通 因為那跟息息相關可是環境部息息相關嗎 息息相關 可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了 可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情 甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難 甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列管 而是要參與賠利 這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道 後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了 可是似乎這個"},{"start":565.428,"end":589.113,"text":"到底這些解方已經給你們 你們有沒有做好 這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那台灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較順順的老闆我要提醒你 因為"},{"start":589.833,"end":612.832,"text":"明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有"},{"start":613.232,"end":642.329,"text":"所处的环境的品质你们2017年这样回答那当然当时事实上是环保署那我们再来看你们2022年的回答下一页2022年呢人家的结论性意见第二次国来审查的时候他也是再次的提醒你们可是似乎你们只有针对第一项有回答第二项第三项一样的他期待还是要有保有有效的参与"},{"start":643.191,"end":669.618,"text":"要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的"},{"start":672.102,"end":694.344,"text":"相關的法規目前 好沒有 那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎"},{"start":695.1,"end":698.426,"text":"那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響"},{"start":704.737,"end":732.865,"text":"結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制這才會是最理想的以上謝謝委員會列入考慮我們會來進行著手進行這個工作"},{"start":733.586,"end":733.888,"text":"再麻煩部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時31分）麻煩我們的部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。今天想來問一下部長，因為今天談的很多主題事實上都跟兒少有很大的關係，所以還是要來問一下，我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利，26號意見書也講得非常的清楚，所以我們就繼續來談這個課題。部長，「盡力不遺落任何人」這句話，我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念，透過幾次質詢，當然很肯認部長已經意識到兒少參與非常的重要，我想部長應該也知道，上週才剛判決的臺灣第一起氣候訴訟，其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定，從氣候調適到公正轉型，怎麼辨識這些高風險、最容易被忽略的人？評估影響衝擊，還有配套怎麼做？這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題，所以想問部長，在強調不遺落任何人的政策方向上，這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生、最容易被排除的人，你們是怎麼去讓他參與、了解需求，而且確保他們不遺落？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，謝謝上次委員的質詢，經過這一個多月，我們一直想辦法，所以目前最新的辦法也跟委員報告一下，就是我特別找了內政部的統計處，我們從資料治理的角度來看，例如說像脆弱的族群，不管是兒少或是年長者，到底人在哪裡？我們不知道，或是有多少人、我們政府有多少的資源可以做？所以我們現在正組成一個團隊，我們也開過會了，我們要針對族群有多少，然後把他撈出來，我們要個案式的一個一個來做輔導，這個是我們目前進行的方式。"],["林委員月琴：好，部長，的確上次在我質詢之後，我也看到你們有把社會福利的需求納入考量，所以就有一個抗高溫的對策聯盟，邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與，很開心你能這樣子做。可是我要特別強調的是，這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開個論壇就算了，這樣的話就根本沒有辦法達到實質的效益。你可以去參考美國紐約的長期氣候計畫，他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點，小組裡面也同樣有來自社福、庇護系統、多元族群的代表，所以想問部長，你這個抗高溫聯盟，社福團體的參與機制是什麼？你能不能承諾不是點綴，而是實質的參與，而且有政策影響力的參與？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們這一次就是從實務上來做，因為過去臺灣對於這種調適的計畫很多，沒有一個實際上務實的落地，所以委員提的這個建議，把兒少的相關族群納進去，我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去，我也跟委員承諾，絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式的，因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟，當時事實上我是為了社福，他們有非常多像無家者，或者是安置機構，或者事實上是社福機構根本就是沒有辦法去應對高溫這一塊，所以還是希望你們不是一次性的會議，能夠比照美國紐約的方式，對於社福或庇護系統或多元族群的代表都要納入，可能不是只有兒少。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：另外，我想跟部長討論一下，環境部事實上有一個人權委員會，有關這個會議的兒少參與狀況，我想問部長，一年兩次會議，而且只有一個代表，我不知道這個代表怎麼來的，而且很單薄，你覺得這樣能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎？這個會議兒少意見的回應跟列管情形是如何，部長可不可以回應？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個請我們副司長來說明，因為我還沒有開過這個會，不好意思。"],["溫副司長修慧：謝謝委員，有關於環境部人權小組的部分，我們目前就是有兒少的委員來參與，除此之外，我們有其他一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請行政院相關兒少代表來給我們一些諮詢。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得第一個……"],["溫副司長修慧：我們有開過會議了。"],["林委員月琴：我真的覺得很單薄，還有，依據公約，對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施，所以想問的就是，因為有時候在一些環境裡面，你要叫他們表達，他跟成人委員在一起開會，甚至有時候成人委員會……有時候我們自己在看，以前我在部會參與或在行政院參與，甚至是在地方，很常會有成人委員很沒禮貌地打斷他們、對他們不友善或是對他們提出的意見一直在質疑，所以我想問你們的友善參與程度是什麼？有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對？甚至他有沒有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人及一些討論的窗口？還是收到開會通知單就自己消化，然後來開會？"],["溫副司長修慧：報告委員，這個部分，我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的互動，如果他有需求，我們都會跟他們做一個回復。除此之外，在人權小組會議之外，我們有相關的一些，像法令研修的部分，我們也會徵詢兒少的相關意見。"],["林委員月琴：所謂參與權是要先培力他們，然後要有友善的環境，聽取他們的意見，然後等到他們表達意見的時候，你們還要能夠回應他們，我覺得除了人力太少以外，還有一個，我希望你們做到這幾個原則。","再來想問一下，延續剛剛我們討論的兒少跟青少年的參與問題，因為除了環境部的人權委員會，我更擔心的是，現在你們針對兒少跟青少年參與，大概都是停留在一次性活動的層次。去年10月份環境部舉辦了青年參與氣候變遷政策工作坊，青年明確的指出，現在的參與方式零碎、缺乏持續性，沒有制度化可以溝通的一個管道，所以你剛才講到有時候、偶爾會邀請來行政院，這對他們來講就是來參加一次。11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇，當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策，想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機，不過想問部長，他們都講了，可是你們似乎還是一樣，就是都停留在……至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動。他們也提到他們想參與政策，部長，你們後面到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，的確，因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動，以我的觀察來看，政府對於青年的銜接，因為青年的變動性、流動率都滿快的，所以以現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接，的確是有一定的難度。請委員再給我一點時間，我去盤點，因為最近的青年圓夢計畫，我們環境部有很多的名額可以幫年輕人去一起合作，我們有一個旗艦，裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續、氣候相關的，我們發現那個互動就會不一樣，所以請委員再給我們一點點時間，讓我找到一個更好的機制……"],["林委員月琴：可能要快喔，因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的，而且是利用他們來做裝飾品，這個很不應該。再加上今天談的這麼多主題，我非常相信孩子講的，這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活，大人們所有不好的政策都沒有提前讓他參與，可是這個地球是未來他們要生活的，地球就是他們生存發展很重要的一個環境，結果我們留給他的到底是什麼？所以為什麼今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題，主要就是這樣，如果你們都不讓他們去參與、去了解，甚至我自己七、八年跟兒少代表接觸，他們幾乎對於環境這一塊，相對於國外真的是很弱，為什麼？因為我們國家沒有特別去培力，他們比較關心的是教育，再來次關心的是交通，因為那跟他們息息相關，可是環境不息息相關嗎？息息相關。我們環境部已經成立了，可是似乎也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情，甚至他們也提出來需要了解參與的困難，甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道、定期要舉辦、固定的窗口列管、兒少參與培力，這是當天他們提出來的，我也不知道。所以我想問，他都告訴你們，他們要怎麼參與了，可是這些解方已經給你們，到底你們有沒有做？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個部分我回去再來檢討一下，好不好？這個的確是一個我們關切的議題，其實在聯合國氣候會議裡面，每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論，目前在國際的組織有建立這個平臺是比較順暢的，而在臺灣，就我的觀察，的確是比較零碎的。"],["林委員月琴：部長，我要提醒你，因為明年就要交國家報告了，CRC兒權公約在2027年要第三次審查，可是明年就要交國家報告，事實上從2017年它就強烈的在提醒你們，也一再叫你們要把兒少所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中，可是你們回答的竟然是，要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有所處環境的品質。你們2017年這樣回答，當然當時事實上是環保署；我們再來看你們2022年的回答，2022年第二次來審查的時候人家的結論性意見，它也是再次的提醒你們，可是似乎你們只有針對第一項有回答，第二項、第三項，一樣的，它期待還是要保有有效的參與，要兒少有效參與，可是截至到去年管考的時候，你還是不理會這個兒少的參與。我就不懂，已經都一直不斷的提醒，每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒，似乎環境部好像都沒有針對這個議題，甚至它也期待，在2022年的時候，它已經預期它的26號一般性意見書會出來，它已經指引出來，希望你們盤點整個相關的法規，但是目前還是沒有。我上次在質詢的時候，也提醒你們，不過你們送給我的東西，我叫你們要針對環境部所有的法規，檢視有沒有符合兒權公約，你們給我的，事實上是以空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我，難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎？CRC也非常清楚的指出怎麼去盤點，先初步篩檢、界定範圍、蒐集證據，然後審視兒童參與的狀況，還有評估影響，結論跟建議也還要持續追蹤。我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作，也建議你們邀請專家學者、公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作，而不是閉門造車，也不是走形式的塞法條給我，我要看空污的法條做什麼？我要的是你們整個去盤點所有這樣的機制，這才會是最理想的。以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好。委員，我們會列入考慮，我們會來著手進行這個工作。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝林委員。","接下來請陳菁徽委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}}