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\"氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"氮\", \"start\": 546.605, \"end\": 546.745, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"氧\", \"start\": 546.745, \"end\": 546.945, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 546.945, \"end\": 547.145, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 547.145, \"end\": 547.265, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 547.265, \"end\": 547.386, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 547.386, \"end\": 547.486, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"硫\", \"start\": 547.486, \"end\": 547.666, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"氧\", \"start\": 547.666, \"end\": 547.806, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 547.806, \"end\": 547.966, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 547.966, \"end\": 548.086, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 548.086, \"end\": 548.247, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 548.247, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 557.998, \"end\": 558.138, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 558.138, \"end\": 558.158, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 558.158, \"end\": 558.618, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"X\", \"start\": 558.618, \"end\": 558.718, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 558.718, \"end\": 559.019, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 559.019, \"end\": 559.159, \"score\": 0.587}, {\"word\": \"X\", \"start\": 559.159, \"end\": 559.179, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 559.179, \"end\": 559.339, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 559.339, \"end\": 559.86, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 559.86, \"end\": 560.0, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"R\", \"start\": 560.0, \"end\": 560.02, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 560.02, \"end\": 560.16, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 560.16, \"end\": 560.28, \"score\": 0.59}, {\"word\": \"臭\", \"start\": 560.28, \"end\": 560.5, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"氧\", \"start\": 560.5, \"end\": 560.961, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 560.961, \"end\": 561.221, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 561.221, \"end\": 561.842, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 561.842, \"end\": 562.002, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 562.002, \"end\": 562.162, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 562.162, \"end\": 562.423, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 562.423, \"end\": 562.543, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 562.543, \"end\": 562.743, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 562.743, \"end\": 563.063, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 563.063, \"end\": 563.244, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 563.244, \"end\": 563.424, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 563.424, \"end\": 563.564, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"粒\", \"start\": 563.564, \"end\": 563.704, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 563.704, \"end\": 563.844, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 563.844, \"end\": 564.044, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 564.044, \"end\": 564.165, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 564.165, \"end\": 564.185, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 564.685, \"end\": 592.221, \"text\": \"那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 564.685, \"end\": 564.845, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 564.845, \"end\": 565.045, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 565.045, \"end\": 565.385, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 565.385, \"end\": 565.626, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 565.626, \"end\": 565.806, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 578.893, \"end\": 579.153, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 579.153, \"end\": 579.674, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 579.674, \"end\": 580.614, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 580.614, \"end\": 580.694, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 580.694, \"end\": 581.575, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 581.575, \"end\": 581.935, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 581.935, \"end\": 582.795, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 582.795, \"end\": 583.095, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 583.095, \"end\": 583.256, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 583.256, \"end\": 583.376, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 583.376, \"end\": 584.596, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 584.596, \"end\": 584.716, \"score\": 0.587}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 584.716, \"end\": 584.836, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 584.836, \"end\": 585.097, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 585.097, \"end\": 585.317, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 585.317, \"end\": 585.417, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 585.417, \"end\": 585.677, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 585.677, \"end\": 585.897, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 585.897, \"end\": 586.818, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 586.818, \"end\": 587.018, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 587.018, \"end\": 587.538, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 587.538, \"end\": 587.778, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 587.778, \"end\": 588.038, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 588.038, \"end\": 588.458, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 588.458, \"end\": 588.859, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 588.859, \"end\": 588.999, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 588.999, \"end\": 589.099, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 589.099, \"end\": 589.539, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 589.539, \"end\": 589.679, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 589.679, \"end\": 589.919, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 589.919, \"end\": 590.039, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 590.039, \"end\": 590.46, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 590.46, \"end\": 590.62, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 590.62, \"end\": 591.42, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 591.42, \"end\": 591.72, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 591.72, \"end\": 591.9, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 591.9, \"end\": 592.201, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 592.201, \"end\": 592.221, \"score\": 0.895}]}, {\"start\": 593.341, \"end\": 618.426, \"text\": \"來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 593.341, \"end\": 593.621, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 593.621, \"end\": 593.941, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 593.941, \"end\": 594.101, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 594.101, \"end\": 594.241, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 594.241, \"end\": 594.421, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 594.421, \"end\": 595.221, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 595.221, \"end\": 595.461, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": 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00:01:36,774\n報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對\n\n5\n00:01:38,755 --> 00:02:07,022\n就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來\n\n6\n00:02:08,742 --> 00:02:29,936\n給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們\n\n7\n00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:57,225\n好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到\n\n8\n00:02:58,065 --> 00:03:19,438\n這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題\n\n9\n00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:47,600\n對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較\n\n10\n00:03:48,641 --> 00:03:57,650\n所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有\n\n11\n00:03:58,476 --> 00:04:27,181\n我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的\n\n12\n00:04:28,001 --> 00:04:40,703\n像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的\n\n13\n00:04:42,185 --> 00:04:59,446\n還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面\n\n14\n00:05:00,438 --> 00:05:25,785\n好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水\n\n15\n00:05:26,525 --> 00:05:30,335\n除了飲食他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好謝謝委員滿好的意見謝謝\n\n16\n00:05:34,414 --> 00:05:59,967\n好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何\n\n17\n00:06:00,467 --> 00:06:24,267\n包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用\n\n18\n00:06:26,294 --> 00:06:40,393\n這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個\n\n19\n00:06:41,394 --> 00:06:58,063\n做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理\n\n20\n00:06:59,284 --> 00:07:26,701\n那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的\n\n21\n00:07:27,681 --> 00:07:54,819\n家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的\n\n22\n00:07:55,899 --> 00:08:20,296\n因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般\n\n23\n00:08:20,976 --> 00:08:36,754\n民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0\n\n24\n00:08:38,795 --> 00:09:04,988\n對2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物\n\n25\n00:09:06,605 --> 00:09:24,185\n氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好\n\n26\n00:09:24,685 --> 00:09:52,221\n那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些\n\n27\n00:09:53,341 --> 00:10:18,426\n來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高\n\n28\n00:10:19,146 --> 00:10:42,029\n我們有算過評估過如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高那個是一個平均的數值\n\n29\n00:10:42,870 --> 00:11:00,166\n好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物\n\n30\n00:11:01,306 --> 00:11:25,371\n最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等\n\n31\n00:11:26,471 --> 00:11:49,479\n都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS\n\n32\n00:11:51,300 --> 00:12:00,622\n管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費\n\n33\n00:12:02,598 --> 00:12:20,559\n跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展\n\n34\n00:12:22,620 --> 00:12:50,789\n所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的\n\n35\n00:12:51,169 --> 00:13:10,361\n是各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來\n\n36\n00:13:11,081 --> 00:13:27,610\n我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6837\t10265\t謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請評部長\n15789\t43366\t部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人\n43986\t69953\t去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢\n70641\t96774\t報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對\n98755\t127022\t就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來\n128742\t149936\t給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們\n150956\t177225\t好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到\n178065\t199438\t這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題\n200759\t227600\t對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較\n228641\t237650\t所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有\n238476\t267181\t我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的\n268001\t280703\t像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的\n282185\t299446\t還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面\n300438\t325785\t好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水\n326525\t330335\t除了飲食 他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝\n334414\t359967\t好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何\n360467\t384267\t包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用\n386294\t400393\t這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個\n401394\t418063\t做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理\n419284\t446701\t那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的\n447681\t474819\t家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的\n475899\t500296\t因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般\n500976\t516754\t民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0\n518795\t544988\t對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物\n546605\t564185\t氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好\n564685\t592221\t那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些\n593341\t618426\t來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高\n619146\t642029\t我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值\n642870\t660166\t好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物\n661306\t685371\t最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等\n686471\t709479\t都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS\n711300\t720622\t管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費\n722598\t740559\t跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展\n742620\t770789\t所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的\n771169\t790361\t是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多 太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來\n791081\t807610\t我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請評部長\n部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人\n去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢\n報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對\n就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來\n給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們\n好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到\n這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題\n對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較\n所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有\n我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的\n像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的\n還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面\n好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水\n除了飲食 他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝\n好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何\n包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用\n這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個\n做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理\n那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的\n家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的\n因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般\n民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0\n對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物\n氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好\n那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些\n來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高\n我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值\n好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物\n最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等\n都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS\n管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費\n跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展\n所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的\n是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多 太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來\n我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.837 --> 00:10.265\n謝謝主席謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來請評部長\n\n00:15.789 --> 00:43.366\n部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人\n\n00:43.986 --> 01:09.953\n去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢\n\n01:10.641 --> 01:36.774\n報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對\n\n01:38.755 --> 02:07.022\n就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來\n\n02:08.742 --> 02:29.936\n給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們\n\n02:30.956 --> 02:57.225\n好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到\n\n02:58.065 --> 03:19.438\n這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題\n\n03:20.759 --> 03:47.600\n對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較\n\n03:48.641 --> 03:57.650\n所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有\n\n03:58.476 --> 04:27.181\n我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的\n\n04:28.001 --> 04:40.703\n像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的\n\n04:42.185 --> 04:59.446\n還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面\n\n05:00.438 --> 05:25.785\n好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水\n\n05:26.525 --> 05:30.335\n除了飲食他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好謝謝委員滿好的意見謝謝\n\n05:34.414 --> 05:59.967\n好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何\n\n06:00.467 --> 06:24.267\n包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用\n\n06:26.294 --> 06:40.393\n這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個\n\n06:41.394 --> 06:58.063\n做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理\n\n06:59.284 --> 07:26.701\n那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的\n\n07:27.681 --> 07:54.819\n家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的\n\n07:55.899 --> 08:20.296\n因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般\n\n08:20.976 --> 08:36.754\n民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0\n\n08:38.795 --> 09:04.988\n對2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物\n\n09:06.605 --> 09:24.185\n氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好\n\n09:24.685 --> 09:52.221\n那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些\n\n09:53.341 --> 10:18.426\n來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高\n\n10:19.146 --> 10:42.029\n我們有算過評估過如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高那個是一個平均的數值\n\n10:42.870 --> 11:00.166\n好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物\n\n11:01.306 --> 11:25.371\n最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等\n\n11:26.471 --> 11:49.479\n都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS\n\n11:51.300 --> 12:00.622\n管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費\n\n12:02.598 --> 12:20.559\n跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展\n\n12:22.620 --> 12:50.789\n所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的\n\n12:51.169 --> 13:10.361\n是各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來\n\n13:11.081 --> 13:27.610\n我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.837,"end":10.265,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請評部長"},{"start":15.789,"end":43.366,"text":"部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人"},{"start":43.986,"end":69.953,"text":"去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢"},{"start":70.641,"end":96.774,"text":"報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對"},{"start":98.755,"end":127.022,"text":"就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來"},{"start":128.742,"end":149.936,"text":"給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們"},{"start":150.956,"end":177.225,"text":"好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到"},{"start":178.065,"end":199.438,"text":"這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題"},{"start":200.759,"end":227.6,"text":"對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較"},{"start":228.641,"end":237.65,"text":"所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有"},{"start":238.476,"end":267.181,"text":"我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的"},{"start":268.001,"end":280.703,"text":"像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的"},{"start":282.185,"end":299.446,"text":"還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面"},{"start":300.438,"end":325.785,"text":"好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水"},{"start":326.525,"end":330.335,"text":"除了飲食 他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝"},{"start":334.414,"end":359.967,"text":"好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何"},{"start":360.467,"end":384.267,"text":"包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用"},{"start":386.294,"end":400.393,"text":"這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個"},{"start":401.394,"end":418.063,"text":"做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理"},{"start":419.284,"end":446.701,"text":"那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的"},{"start":447.681,"end":474.819,"text":"家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的"},{"start":475.899,"end":500.296,"text":"因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般"},{"start":500.976,"end":516.754,"text":"民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0"},{"start":518.795,"end":544.988,"text":"對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物"},{"start":546.605,"end":564.185,"text":"氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好"},{"start":564.685,"end":592.221,"text":"那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些"},{"start":593.341,"end":618.426,"text":"來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高"},{"start":619.146,"end":642.029,"text":"我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值"},{"start":642.87,"end":660.166,"text":"好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物"},{"start":661.306,"end":685.371,"text":"最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等"},{"start":686.471,"end":709.479,"text":"都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS"},{"start":711.3,"end":720.622,"text":"管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費"},{"start":722.598,"end":740.559,"text":"跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展"},{"start":742.62,"end":770.789,"text":"所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的"},{"start":771.169,"end":790.361,"text":"是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多 太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來"},{"start":791.081,"end":807.61,"text":"我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時44分）謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員，還有官員。我請環境部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。第一個我想先關心的是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題，因為大家都知道碳盤查的問題是醫療體系占排放量很大宗，是超級碳排的大戶，目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院完成碳排查了，但說實在的，很多醫護人員跟我反映他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙，但還需要再另外派人去學習所有的這些知識，我知道你們未來預計要再做23家醫學中心的碳盤查，可是對於資源相對比較低，像現在人力比較缺乏，健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院及地區醫院，他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐，不知道這方面，你有沒有辦法做協助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概1年有2,000萬協助碳盤查這個工作，但是以我們環境部的認知，其實因為第一個，我們不會收醫院碳費，所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電，做ESCO相關的節電，這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點，所以包含像長庚醫院就非常的認真，但是有些醫院這個部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛講的是區域醫院跟地區醫院。"],["彭部長啓明：對，區域。"],["陳委員菁徽：醫學中心當然它自己……"],["彭部長啓明：就要做了。"],["陳委員菁徽：像長庚醫院，它甚至有自己研發節能的能力。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我講的是比較小型的，可是它可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對也滿重要的，他們會希望衛福部可以明確規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施，還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目，但這方面的話，關於這些小型的醫療機構，他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部給予衛福部協助，可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們明年開始會擴大列管的範圍，不過是以醫學中心為主，所以中小型的其實是不會列管的，但是如果中小型願意去改善節電的話，也是省錢的一種方式，我們也是鼓勵，但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這是他們很在意的一個點。再來，這題比較特別一點點，因為之前有質詢過您關於環境部的韌性計畫，裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的，所以您會知道韌性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題，尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶，當然您有做到全國公廁工程的補助計畫，叫做美質環境推動計畫，這個是很好，但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是，日本在經歷過阪神大地震，還有後續的其他地震之後，他們就發現在沒有電力、沒有排水的狀況之下，其實市民的如廁權變成一個很重要的問題，這個是後來我們去研究日本怎麼做，他們就開始開發一個組合式的公廁，它會在人孔蓋拿起來以後，把它接上去，裝上去之後，這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘，但它兼顧了隱私、兼顧了韌性、兼顧長輩，尤其是行動不方便的，等一下我們再來看臺灣的，來做一個比較。所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公廁的設施改善計畫當中？"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前還沒有在做這個事，我們現在是以改善公廁的品質為目標，所以委員提這個建議非常好，我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：給您看一下我們現在的圖，當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括了永續、環保、性別、平權、友善、綠能等等精神，都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯，可是加入韌性的話，這個是我們平常會看到的，像這樣子一臺，租一臺的租金大概是600元到700元，而且你要把移動的時間考量進來，對不對？到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害，它搬進來是非常不容易的，還有它其實對長輩不友善，完全沒有無傷礙的空間，但這個是我們現在要用的。所以我希望未來可不可以在一個月內提供書面報告，是不是考慮在下個年度把韌性這樣子的概念放進您的公廁改善計畫裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們來研究一下，因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心因應可能發生這種緊急事故的時候，它的確有這樣的一個規劃，但是我們現在環境部的美質廁所改善，並沒有含在這一塊，這個部分我們來研究一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是因為全國的公廁，您是最高指導單位嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：這也是日本人遇到了大型災害以後，才發現原來之前除了電力、除了水、除了飲食，這是他們沒有考慮到的地方，他們才會去做這樣子的發明。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員滿好的意見，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。下一個，年初的時候，您曾經提出要發表一個新空品政策白皮書作為第三期，因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切，5月17日以後，火力發電可能會提高到84%，所以大家也想知道，因為今年已經快過一半了，可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書，到現在都還沒有看到，請問現在進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，已經做好了，我們禮拜五就會公布，因為我自己也很仔細在看，一個一個改，所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜，這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公布。"],["陳委員菁徽：之前您曾經提到這個白皮書可能包括預報、應變，然後還可以管理，在此您方便稍微透露一下，您要怎麼利用這個在應變、管理或預警上加強？"],["彭部長啓明：第一，過去的空品預報或監測是屬於監資司，如果有空污的時候，大氣司再來和各縣市環保局統合，現在他們已經進行整合了，有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大氣司進行運作，現在在磨合當中，未來他們的速度會更快，例如遇到空污事件的時候，他們會更快的結合、發布，然後跟民眾、地方政府共同來應變處理。也跟委員報告，其實最近我們也發現很多生活空污是蠻多的，例如我們在家裡一打開瓦斯、LNG一打開，就有很多微粒會跑出來，所以有關民眾的生活空污要如何改善，是未來我們一個很大的重點。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是說，這個白皮書有很大一部分是要告訴民眾，生活中有很多生活空污，不管是他接觸的這些家用電器或者是他的交通工具，你是想要提高這方面的意識？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，其實最重要是說，因為我們有一個目標，希望2030年的PM2.5可以拼到10，這個是我們一個很大的目標，當然現在進入一個深水區，以現在的工具是做不到的，但如果淨零努力做，有機會2030年的PM2.5可以到10以下，或是2035年可以到8，這是我們最大的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：這也是大家最擔心的地方，因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%，所以今天本席想跟您討論的是，之前您受訪時提到國內、境內的空污，來自交通的占比是12.2%，工業大概是10.7%，電力的占比只有2.3%，而且主要是火力發電，這一點跟一般民眾的常識或直覺有非常大的落差，針對這一點我想要跟您請教，您的資料來源，是不是臺灣污染源排放清冊TEDS 12.0？"],["彭部長啓明：對，2021年的，這是我們環境部所委託的，蒐集全臺灣的各種排碳源排放之後，經由大氣擴散，算出來一年……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您講的火力發電占空污的2.3%，其實指的只是PM2.5嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，PM2.5有包含自己本身直接排放的或是衍生的，例如SOx、NOx，都在裡面，是一個統合的結果。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是如果把其他的這些衍生物，如氮氧化物或硫氧化物加一加，並不只是2.3%。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在空污大概都直接看PM2.5，因為PM2.5包含原生的或是衍生的，例如SOx、NOx，或是ozone（臭氧），其實經過化學反應之後，也會造成微粒的增加，所以我們都直接看PM2.5。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你所引用的資料，其實硫氧化物或氮氧化物的比率是蠻高的，它在火力發電占全國的污染比率分別是16.5%及40.4%，您說出2.3%這樣的數據，其實跟裡面所看到的40.4%，落差是很高的。我希望您還是要讓人民知道，第一，空污的來源不只是PM2.5，其實您剛剛也有講到其他東西，而這些全部都是很傷害人體健康的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，基本上我們現在統一看的都是PM2.5，因為PM2.5包含它原生的微粒，例如燃煤電廠，它一定有微粒……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那您告訴我，未來5月17日之後，您最在意的這個PM2.5所占空污比率到底會不會升高？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們幾年前就有特別算過、評估過，如果核三的兩個機組關掉之後，大概只增加0.003微克。"],["陳委員菁徽：只增加？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：只增加？"],["彭部長啓明：但是我必須說那是年平均值，而不是某一天，因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好，有時候某一些數值可能就相對會比較高，我剛剛說的是一個平均數值。"],["陳委員菁徽：你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料分析，所以我希望未來你可以在PM2.5以外，把其他會影響人體健康的都一起算進來，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，可以，但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5直接或間接衍生的污染物。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後一個問題，您剛剛提到的PFAS管理行動計畫，本席只想點出這個跟你們環境部以前的其他專案不同在哪裡？你們以前包括提出了污染鑑定、感染技術開發計畫、全國環境檢測、智慧轉型計畫及水質推動計畫等等，都會做好三件事情，第一，把總經費匡好，包括上次提出的化學韌性計畫也是一樣。第二，把責任分工規劃好，每一個機關每一年要花多少錢、做多少事情，還有績效、進度都制定好，像是總共要做幾年，然後每年至少要做到哪些事情等。可是你這個PFAS管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛，第一，沒有執行年限；第二，沒有制定績效；第三，沒有總經費，也沒有分年期的經費。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，PFAS本身就是斯德哥爾摩公約的一個衍生管理物質，其實我們從民國97年就有一個叫做持久性有機污染物的公約，這也是跨部會的，因為這個物質是一直不斷的發展，所以當初在擬定這個計畫的時候，就不會定下期限，但是它每年都有工作項目，每年檢討……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，你現在的考核管制就是每年只有一次，上一次我質詢的時候，才剛爆出有37座淨水廠包含PFAS之內的致癌物超標，但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了，所以訂定績效是蠻重要的。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，跟委員報告，這個我們會來檢討，因為工作項目真的是跨了7個部會……"],["陳委員菁徽：太多，我知道。"],["謝署長燕儒：經費都是在原來的計畫裡去勻支，因為這個有機污染物種類很多，現在我們是希望以PFAS優先來做，可是優先做要抽出多少錢，我們必須再跟其他部會研商，這其實是有困難的，不過我們儘可能看能不能在期限……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，麻煩一個月給我兩個報告，第一個是廁所的韌性；第二個是PFAS管理計畫要如何改進？謝謝。"],["謝署長燕儒：好。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}}