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\"的\", \"start\": 622.781, \"end\": 622.881, \"score\": 0.523}, {\"word\": \"讨\", \"start\": 622.881, \"end\": 623.001, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"论\", \"start\": 623.001, \"end\": 623.021, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 623.021, \"end\": 623.262, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 623.262, \"end\": 623.282, \"score\": 0.003}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,229 --> 00:00:00,249\n請葉次長備質詢,謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:18,002 --> 00:00:36,508\n在進入AI基本法之前我還是針對你們花了7106萬3000元所開發的網路詐騙通報查詢網這個APP來就教於你為什麼要特別先講這個因為大家對速發布是賦予極大的一個期待但是你看\n\n3\n00:00:37,228 --> 00:01:05,589\n我们这个从警政署的资料来说光是今年4月诈骗的案件就有将近1600万件对不起16000件这个最主要是受骗的金额是到达76亿这比3月的时候70亿还多了6亿那你看看前五名大概就是所谓的金融诈骗还有交友诈骗这占的比例很高所以很显然大家既想钱又开始非常的寂寞这个真的是我们的一个常态\n\n4\n00:01:06,290 --> 00:01:07,394\n所以你們開發了這樣一個APP次長你覺得成效如何\n\n5\n00:01:12,533 --> 00:01:31,643\n這個當然不是我負責的業務但是是你們庶發部的業務我們庶發部會繼續努力這樣子沒有你們庶發部的努力我們先給你看一下所以說你看現在已經進入第二次的公共測試你七個月的時間大概是有一千六百三十一個人來下載一萬六千個人下載但是實際有通報記錄大概只有兩千\n\n6\n00:01:36,505 --> 00:02:01,240\n所以说呢你看而且民众的反应这是书发布的反应大家认为说诈骗你们就已经到了AI的时代了你们诈骗还要自己识别自己通报然后呢还要花六七千万所以说呢目前为止的成效你先看一下我正如我刚刚说的每个月仅正数有两万件的诈骗案你们书发布花了七千多万七个月只有两千人来进行通报\n\n7\n00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:29,883\n这个数字其实差距是非常大的所以这个数据然后再加民众的一个反应重点是你们如何来界定什么叫做诈骗案件你的标准是什么有些时候你们还有判定什么高风险无法判断如果你被界定为高风险的话基本上都不太处理的所以这一部分你们做这样一个APP到底成效如何而且你们一发现被认定是诈骗案件好了我们最高等级你觉得在通告这个网络的平台然后叫业者下架需要多久的时间\n\n8\n00:02:31,804 --> 00:02:33,028\n多久時間這很重要我可不可以請負責的林組長來很快時間因為我要進入AI基本法\n\n9\n00:02:37,708 --> 00:03:02,019\n好謝謝委員的提醒那因為整個開發來講的話我們使用到從公測到現在大概有通報了19萬件的這個詐騙的廣告那我們經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架這第一天的報告再來就是說我們所有的案件裡面的判斷其實我們是結合各部會包括內政部所以多久時間你可以從民眾通報到你真的讓它下架多久的時間平均多久的時間\n\n10\n00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,943\n那平均大概一到三天因為中間有過程中是要讓這個部會去好那你既然在這個地方我還有一到三天的時間那我還有一個最重要的部分裡面所有通報業者的條件有高達96.8%是來自Meta\n\n11\n00:03:18,932 --> 00:03:27,637\n但是你要知道我們一般老人會使用Instagram會使用這個Facebook其實不太用他們用LINE但是你的LINE的部分裡面只有0.99不到1%所以你們這個平台你們根本沒有辦法抓到我們群眾最常用的這個LINE那你怎麼來做這樣的一個處理\n\n12\n00:03:35,482 --> 00:03:49,994\nLINE的部分來講的話其實我們現在跟警政署一起合作包括他的帳號如果有一些部分有問題我只告訴你現在只有1%不到這才是老人最容易詐騙的所以一個速發布花的7000多萬元我們期待你如果連這個LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話那你所做的部分其實沒有辦法發揮逃逸的效果這是我要不斷強調的好不好\n\n13\n00:03:54,617 --> 00:04:12,971\n而且为什么会是这样子所以联合国在四月的时候就不断的公告我们台湾在infraction这个point里面报告我们有跨过的诈骗跟地下博弈都是来自台湾包括他们的技术包括他们很多的技术的支援那目前来说的话你们有没有掌握这个讯息\n\n14\n00:04:13,812 --> 00:04:41,614\n有没有掌握这个讯息而且里面呢这些集团导入生成AI还有身为的技术等等你们又掌握到这些部分吗连调查局都承认近日才知道所以很显然我们台湾对于这样的讯息连联合国的公报里面都已经特别提出来我们到现在为止都还比别人慢一拍这个说实在的真是有为我们这么多高深的人才啊这次我还是要提到的好不好来接下来因为时间的关系除了这个次长之外我们是不是也请我们的吴承文我们的主委\n\n15\n00:04:44,120 --> 00:05:08,398\n主委我们很快来说刚刚洪孟凯我已经稍微特别提到了我们从这个国科会因为草案是你们提的那现在转给术发部那当然有讲了非常多的理由我就帮帮你这件事你会回应的吧因为基于国安基于人权一大堆你不觉得在开始要成立这个AI这么要重视的时候都没考虑到这些问题吗临时换手你觉得这样合理吗主委\n\n16\n00:05:10,718 --> 00:05:35,738\n我想在前主委吳政東主委的時候在行政院討論也是因為當時這個訴發部剛成立所以他就所以是訴發部目前為止成效在詐騙的部分裡面成效不彰然後你是主導這個草案目前臨時換手你難道沒有覺得有任何覺得不妥嗎你們剛剛所講的理由本來就是應該要來制定這個法案之前就應該想到該哪個部門就哪個部門而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作\n\n17\n00:05:39,781 --> 00:05:43,838\n今天成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理\n\n18\n00:05:45,055 --> 00:05:49,596\n未來AI那有嗎有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI\n\n19\n00:06:13,982 --> 00:06:29,537\n然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個\n\n20\n00:06:36,314 --> 00:06:41,496\n其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府\n\n21\n00:06:59,665 --> 00:07:27,787\n推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到\n\n22\n00:07:28,507 --> 00:07:32,190\n你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧不是嗎報告委員黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊他也做出很多的批評啊\n\n23\n00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:54,130\n那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊\n\n24\n00:08:08,624 --> 00:08:36,277\n你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院\n\n25\n00:08:36,917 --> 00:08:40,999\n到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查\n\n26\n00:09:05,549 --> 00:09:29,487\n各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的\n\n27\n00:09:32,369 --> 00:09:52,458\n通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题\n\n28\n00:09:52,978 --> 00:10:17,448\n这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好\n\n29\n00:10:18,428 --> 00:10:23,282\n那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n229\t249\t請葉次長備質詢,謝謝\n18002\t36508\t在進入AI基本法之前我還是針對你們花了7106萬3000元所開發的網路詐騙通報查詢網這個APP來就教於你為什麼要特別先講這個因為大家對速發布是賦予極大的一個期待但是你看\n37228\t65589\t我们这个从警政署的资料来说光是今年4月诈骗的案件就有将近1600万件对不起16000件这个最主要是受骗的金额是到达76亿这比3月的时候70亿还多了6亿那你看看前五名大概就是所谓的金融诈骗还有交友诈骗这占的比例很高所以很显然大家既想钱又开始非常的寂寞这个真的是我们的一个常态\n66290\t67394\t所以你們開發了這樣一個APP次長你覺得成效如何\n72533\t91643\t這個當然不是我負責的業務但是是你們庶發部的業務我們庶發部會繼續努力這樣子沒有你們庶發部的努力我們先給你看一下所以說你看現在已經進入第二次的公共測試你七個月的時間大概是有一千六百三十一個人來下載一萬六千個人下載但是實際有通報記錄大概只有兩千\n96505\t121240\t所以说呢你看而且民众的反应这是书发布的反应大家认为说诈骗你们就已经到了AI的时代了你们诈骗还要自己识别自己通报然后呢还要花六七千万所以说呢目前为止的成效你先看一下我正如我刚刚说的每个月仅正数有两万件的诈骗案你们书发布花了七千多万七个月只有两千人来进行通报\n121920\t149883\t这个数字其实差距是非常大的所以这个数据然后再加民众的一个反应重点是你们如何来界定什么叫做诈骗案件你的标准是什么有些时候你们还有判定什么高风险无法判断如果你被界定为高风险的话基本上都不太处理的所以这一部分你们做这样一个APP到底成效如何而且你们一发现被认定是诈骗案件好了我们最高等级你觉得在通告这个网络的平台然后叫业者下架需要多久的时间\n151804\t153028\t多久時間這很重要我可不可以請負責的林組長來很快時間因為我要進入AI基本法\n157708\t182019\t好 謝謝委員的提醒那因為整個開發來講的話我們使用到從公測到現在大概有通報了19萬件的這個詐騙的廣告那我們經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架這第一天的報告再來就是說我們所有的案件裡面的判斷其實我們是結合各部會包括內政部所以多久時間你可以從民眾通報到你真的讓它下架多久的時間平均多久的時間\n183720\t187943\t那平均大概一到三天因為中間有過程中是要讓這個部會去好 那你既然在這個地方我還有一到三天的時間那我還有一個最重要的部分裡面所有通報業者的條件有高達96.8%是來自Meta\n198932\t207637\t但是你要知道我們一般老人會使用Instagram會使用這個Facebook其實不太用他們用LINE但是你的LINE的部分裡面只有0.99不到1%所以你們這個平台你們根本沒有辦法抓到我們群眾最常用的這個LINE那你怎麼來做這樣的一個處理\n215482\t229994\tLINE的部分來講的話其實我們現在跟警政署一起合作包括他的帳號如果有一些部分有問題我只告訴你現在只有1%不到這才是老人最容易詐騙的所以一個速發布花的7000多萬元我們期待你如果連這個LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話那你所做的部分其實沒有辦法發揮逃逸的效果這是我要不斷強調的好不好\n234617\t252971\t而且为什么会是这样子所以联合国在四月的时候就不断的公告我们台湾在infraction这个point里面报告我们有跨过的诈骗跟地下博弈都是来自台湾包括他们的技术包括他们很多的技术的支援那目前来说的话你们有没有掌握这个讯息\n253812\t281614\t有没有掌握这个讯息而且里面呢这些集团导入生成AI还有身为的技术等等你们又掌握到这些部分吗连调查局都承认近日才知道所以很显然我们台湾对于这样的讯息连联合国的公报里面都已经特别提出来我们到现在为止都还比别人慢一拍这个说实在的真是有为我们这么多高深的人才啊这次我还是要提到的好不好来接下来因为时间的关系除了这个次长之外我们是不是也请我们的吴承文我们的主委\n284120\t308398\t主委我们很快来说刚刚洪孟凯我已经稍微特别提到了我们从这个国科会因为草案是你们提的那现在转给术发部那当然有讲了非常多的理由我就帮帮你这件事你会回应的吧因为基于国安基于人权一大堆你不觉得在开始要成立这个AI这么要重视的时候都没考虑到这些问题吗临时换手你觉得这样合理吗主委\n310718\t335738\t我想在前主委吳政東主委的時候在行政院討論也是因為當時這個訴發部剛成立所以他就所以是訴發部目前為止成效在詐騙的部分裡面成效不彰然後你是主導這個草案目前臨時換手你難道沒有覺得有任何覺得不妥嗎你們剛剛所講的理由本來就是應該要來制定這個法案之前就應該想到該哪個部門就哪個部門而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作\n339781\t343838\t今天成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理\n345055\t349596\t未來AI那有嗎 有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI\n373982\t389537\t然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個\n396314\t401496\t其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府\n419665\t447787\t推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到\n448507\t452190\t你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧 不是嗎報告委員 黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊 他也做出很多的批評啊\n463760\t474130\t那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊\n488624\t516277\t你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院\n516917\t520999\t到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查\n545549\t569487\t各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的\n572369\t592458\t通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题\n592978\t617448\t这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好\n618428\t623282\t那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢\n","txt":"請葉次長備質詢,謝謝\n在進入AI基本法之前我還是針對你們花了7106萬3000元所開發的網路詐騙通報查詢網這個APP來就教於你為什麼要特別先講這個因為大家對速發布是賦予極大的一個期待但是你看\n我们这个从警政署的资料来说光是今年4月诈骗的案件就有将近1600万件对不起16000件这个最主要是受骗的金额是到达76亿这比3月的时候70亿还多了6亿那你看看前五名大概就是所谓的金融诈骗还有交友诈骗这占的比例很高所以很显然大家既想钱又开始非常的寂寞这个真的是我们的一个常态\n所以你們開發了這樣一個APP次長你覺得成效如何\n這個當然不是我負責的業務但是是你們庶發部的業務我們庶發部會繼續努力這樣子沒有你們庶發部的努力我們先給你看一下所以說你看現在已經進入第二次的公共測試你七個月的時間大概是有一千六百三十一個人來下載一萬六千個人下載但是實際有通報記錄大概只有兩千\n所以说呢你看而且民众的反应这是书发布的反应大家认为说诈骗你们就已经到了AI的时代了你们诈骗还要自己识别自己通报然后呢还要花六七千万所以说呢目前为止的成效你先看一下我正如我刚刚说的每个月仅正数有两万件的诈骗案你们书发布花了七千多万七个月只有两千人来进行通报\n这个数字其实差距是非常大的所以这个数据然后再加民众的一个反应重点是你们如何来界定什么叫做诈骗案件你的标准是什么有些时候你们还有判定什么高风险无法判断如果你被界定为高风险的话基本上都不太处理的所以这一部分你们做这样一个APP到底成效如何而且你们一发现被认定是诈骗案件好了我们最高等级你觉得在通告这个网络的平台然后叫业者下架需要多久的时间\n多久時間這很重要我可不可以請負責的林組長來很快時間因為我要進入AI基本法\n好 謝謝委員的提醒那因為整個開發來講的話我們使用到從公測到現在大概有通報了19萬件的這個詐騙的廣告那我們經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架這第一天的報告再來就是說我們所有的案件裡面的判斷其實我們是結合各部會包括內政部所以多久時間你可以從民眾通報到你真的讓它下架多久的時間平均多久的時間\n那平均大概一到三天因為中間有過程中是要讓這個部會去好 那你既然在這個地方我還有一到三天的時間那我還有一個最重要的部分裡面所有通報業者的條件有高達96.8%是來自Meta\n但是你要知道我們一般老人會使用Instagram會使用這個Facebook其實不太用他們用LINE但是你的LINE的部分裡面只有0.99不到1%所以你們這個平台你們根本沒有辦法抓到我們群眾最常用的這個LINE那你怎麼來做這樣的一個處理\nLINE的部分來講的話其實我們現在跟警政署一起合作包括他的帳號如果有一些部分有問題我只告訴你現在只有1%不到這才是老人最容易詐騙的所以一個速發布花的7000多萬元我們期待你如果連這個LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話那你所做的部分其實沒有辦法發揮逃逸的效果這是我要不斷強調的好不好\n而且为什么会是这样子所以联合国在四月的时候就不断的公告我们台湾在infraction这个point里面报告我们有跨过的诈骗跟地下博弈都是来自台湾包括他们的技术包括他们很多的技术的支援那目前来说的话你们有没有掌握这个讯息\n有没有掌握这个讯息而且里面呢这些集团导入生成AI还有身为的技术等等你们又掌握到这些部分吗连调查局都承认近日才知道所以很显然我们台湾对于这样的讯息连联合国的公报里面都已经特别提出来我们到现在为止都还比别人慢一拍这个说实在的真是有为我们这么多高深的人才啊这次我还是要提到的好不好来接下来因为时间的关系除了这个次长之外我们是不是也请我们的吴承文我们的主委\n主委我们很快来说刚刚洪孟凯我已经稍微特别提到了我们从这个国科会因为草案是你们提的那现在转给术发部那当然有讲了非常多的理由我就帮帮你这件事你会回应的吧因为基于国安基于人权一大堆你不觉得在开始要成立这个AI这么要重视的时候都没考虑到这些问题吗临时换手你觉得这样合理吗主委\n我想在前主委吳政東主委的時候在行政院討論也是因為當時這個訴發部剛成立所以他就所以是訴發部目前為止成效在詐騙的部分裡面成效不彰然後你是主導這個草案目前臨時換手你難道沒有覺得有任何覺得不妥嗎你們剛剛所講的理由本來就是應該要來制定這個法案之前就應該想到該哪個部門就哪個部門而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作\n今天成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理\n未來AI那有嗎 有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI\n然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個\n其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府\n推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到\n你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧 不是嗎報告委員 黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊 他也做出很多的批評啊\n那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊\n你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院\n到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查\n各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的\n通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题\n这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好\n那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.229 --> 00:00.249\n請葉次長備質詢,謝謝\n\n00:18.002 --> 00:36.508\n在進入AI基本法之前我還是針對你們花了7106萬3000元所開發的網路詐騙通報查詢網這個APP來就教於你為什麼要特別先講這個因為大家對速發布是賦予極大的一個期待但是你看\n\n00:37.228 --> 01:05.589\n我们这个从警政署的资料来说光是今年4月诈骗的案件就有将近1600万件对不起16000件这个最主要是受骗的金额是到达76亿这比3月的时候70亿还多了6亿那你看看前五名大概就是所谓的金融诈骗还有交友诈骗这占的比例很高所以很显然大家既想钱又开始非常的寂寞这个真的是我们的一个常态\n\n01:06.290 --> 01:07.394\n所以你們開發了這樣一個APP次長你覺得成效如何\n\n01:12.533 --> 01:31.643\n這個當然不是我負責的業務但是是你們庶發部的業務我們庶發部會繼續努力這樣子沒有你們庶發部的努力我們先給你看一下所以說你看現在已經進入第二次的公共測試你七個月的時間大概是有一千六百三十一個人來下載一萬六千個人下載但是實際有通報記錄大概只有兩千\n\n01:36.505 --> 02:01.240\n所以说呢你看而且民众的反应这是书发布的反应大家认为说诈骗你们就已经到了AI的时代了你们诈骗还要自己识别自己通报然后呢还要花六七千万所以说呢目前为止的成效你先看一下我正如我刚刚说的每个月仅正数有两万件的诈骗案你们书发布花了七千多万七个月只有两千人来进行通报\n\n02:01.920 --> 02:29.883\n这个数字其实差距是非常大的所以这个数据然后再加民众的一个反应重点是你们如何来界定什么叫做诈骗案件你的标准是什么有些时候你们还有判定什么高风险无法判断如果你被界定为高风险的话基本上都不太处理的所以这一部分你们做这样一个APP到底成效如何而且你们一发现被认定是诈骗案件好了我们最高等级你觉得在通告这个网络的平台然后叫业者下架需要多久的时间\n\n02:31.804 --> 02:33.028\n多久時間這很重要我可不可以請負責的林組長來很快時間因為我要進入AI基本法\n\n02:37.708 --> 03:02.019\n好謝謝委員的提醒那因為整個開發來講的話我們使用到從公測到現在大概有通報了19萬件的這個詐騙的廣告那我們經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架這第一天的報告再來就是說我們所有的案件裡面的判斷其實我們是結合各部會包括內政部所以多久時間你可以從民眾通報到你真的讓它下架多久的時間平均多久的時間\n\n03:03.720 --> 03:07.943\n那平均大概一到三天因為中間有過程中是要讓這個部會去好那你既然在這個地方我還有一到三天的時間那我還有一個最重要的部分裡面所有通報業者的條件有高達96.8%是來自Meta\n\n03:18.932 --> 03:27.637\n但是你要知道我們一般老人會使用Instagram會使用這個Facebook其實不太用他們用LINE但是你的LINE的部分裡面只有0.99不到1%所以你們這個平台你們根本沒有辦法抓到我們群眾最常用的這個LINE那你怎麼來做這樣的一個處理\n\n03:35.482 --> 03:49.994\nLINE的部分來講的話其實我們現在跟警政署一起合作包括他的帳號如果有一些部分有問題我只告訴你現在只有1%不到這才是老人最容易詐騙的所以一個速發布花的7000多萬元我們期待你如果連這個LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話那你所做的部分其實沒有辦法發揮逃逸的效果這是我要不斷強調的好不好\n\n03:54.617 --> 04:12.971\n而且为什么会是这样子所以联合国在四月的时候就不断的公告我们台湾在infraction这个point里面报告我们有跨过的诈骗跟地下博弈都是来自台湾包括他们的技术包括他们很多的技术的支援那目前来说的话你们有没有掌握这个讯息\n\n04:13.812 --> 04:41.614\n有没有掌握这个讯息而且里面呢这些集团导入生成AI还有身为的技术等等你们又掌握到这些部分吗连调查局都承认近日才知道所以很显然我们台湾对于这样的讯息连联合国的公报里面都已经特别提出来我们到现在为止都还比别人慢一拍这个说实在的真是有为我们这么多高深的人才啊这次我还是要提到的好不好来接下来因为时间的关系除了这个次长之外我们是不是也请我们的吴承文我们的主委\n\n04:44.120 --> 05:08.398\n主委我们很快来说刚刚洪孟凯我已经稍微特别提到了我们从这个国科会因为草案是你们提的那现在转给术发部那当然有讲了非常多的理由我就帮帮你这件事你会回应的吧因为基于国安基于人权一大堆你不觉得在开始要成立这个AI这么要重视的时候都没考虑到这些问题吗临时换手你觉得这样合理吗主委\n\n05:10.718 --> 05:35.738\n我想在前主委吳政東主委的時候在行政院討論也是因為當時這個訴發部剛成立所以他就所以是訴發部目前為止成效在詐騙的部分裡面成效不彰然後你是主導這個草案目前臨時換手你難道沒有覺得有任何覺得不妥嗎你們剛剛所講的理由本來就是應該要來制定這個法案之前就應該想到該哪個部門就哪個部門而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作\n\n05:39.781 --> 05:43.838\n今天成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理\n\n05:45.055 --> 05:49.596\n未來AI那有嗎有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI\n\n06:13.982 --> 06:29.537\n然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個\n\n06:36.314 --> 06:41.496\n其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府\n\n06:59.665 --> 07:27.787\n推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到\n\n07:28.507 --> 07:32.190\n你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧不是嗎報告委員黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊他也做出很多的批評啊\n\n07:43.760 --> 07:54.130\n那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊\n\n08:08.624 --> 08:36.277\n你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院\n\n08:36.917 --> 08:40.999\n到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查\n\n09:05.549 --> 09:29.487\n各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的\n\n09:32.369 --> 09:52.458\n通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题\n\n09:52.978 --> 10:17.448\n这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好\n\n10:18.428 --> 10:23.282\n那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.229,"end":0.249,"text":"請葉次長備質詢,謝謝"},{"start":18.002,"end":36.508,"text":"在進入AI基本法之前我還是針對你們花了7106萬3000元所開發的網路詐騙通報查詢網這個APP來就教於你為什麼要特別先講這個因為大家對速發布是賦予極大的一個期待但是你看"},{"start":37.228,"end":65.589,"text":"我们这个从警政署的资料来说光是今年4月诈骗的案件就有将近1600万件对不起16000件这个最主要是受骗的金额是到达76亿这比3月的时候70亿还多了6亿那你看看前五名大概就是所谓的金融诈骗还有交友诈骗这占的比例很高所以很显然大家既想钱又开始非常的寂寞这个真的是我们的一个常态"},{"start":66.29,"end":67.394,"text":"所以你們開發了這樣一個APP次長你覺得成效如何"},{"start":72.533,"end":91.643,"text":"這個當然不是我負責的業務但是是你們庶發部的業務我們庶發部會繼續努力這樣子沒有你們庶發部的努力我們先給你看一下所以說你看現在已經進入第二次的公共測試你七個月的時間大概是有一千六百三十一個人來下載一萬六千個人下載但是實際有通報記錄大概只有兩千"},{"start":96.505,"end":121.24,"text":"所以说呢你看而且民众的反应这是书发布的反应大家认为说诈骗你们就已经到了AI的时代了你们诈骗还要自己识别自己通报然后呢还要花六七千万所以说呢目前为止的成效你先看一下我正如我刚刚说的每个月仅正数有两万件的诈骗案你们书发布花了七千多万七个月只有两千人来进行通报"},{"start":121.92,"end":149.883,"text":"这个数字其实差距是非常大的所以这个数据然后再加民众的一个反应重点是你们如何来界定什么叫做诈骗案件你的标准是什么有些时候你们还有判定什么高风险无法判断如果你被界定为高风险的话基本上都不太处理的所以这一部分你们做这样一个APP到底成效如何而且你们一发现被认定是诈骗案件好了我们最高等级你觉得在通告这个网络的平台然后叫业者下架需要多久的时间"},{"start":151.804,"end":153.028,"text":"多久時間這很重要我可不可以請負責的林組長來很快時間因為我要進入AI基本法"},{"start":157.708,"end":182.019,"text":"好 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有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI"},{"start":373.982,"end":389.537,"text":"然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個"},{"start":396.314,"end":401.496,"text":"其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府"},{"start":419.665,"end":447.787,"text":"推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到"},{"start":448.507,"end":452.19,"text":"你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧 不是嗎報告委員 黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊 他也做出很多的批評啊"},{"start":463.76,"end":474.13,"text":"那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊"},{"start":488.624,"end":516.277,"text":"你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院"},{"start":516.917,"end":520.999,"text":"到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查"},{"start":545.549,"end":569.487,"text":"各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的"},{"start":572.369,"end":592.458,"text":"通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题"},{"start":592.978,"end":617.448,"text":"这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好"},{"start":618.428,"end":623.282,"text":"那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":168,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時50分）謝謝召委，是不是首先請數發部的葉次長？"],["主席：請葉次長備詢。謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：委員早安。"],["柯委員志恩：次長早。在進入AI基本法之前，我還是要針對你們花了7,106萬3,000元所開發的「網路詐騙通報查詢網」這個app來就教於你。為什麼要特別先講這個？因為大家對數發部有極大的期待，但是從警政署的資料來看，光是今年4月，詐騙的案件就有將近1萬6,000件，最主要是受騙金額高達76億，比3月份的70億還多了6億，前5名除了金融詐騙，交友詐騙所占的比例也很高，顯然大家既想有錢，又非常寂寞，這真的是我們的一個常態。對於你們開發的這樣一個app，次長覺得成效如何？"],["葉次長寧：雖然這不是我負責的業務，但我……"],["柯委員志恩：但這是你們數發部的業務，你們必須要知道！"],["葉次長寧：對、對、對，我們會繼續努力。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有！我先給你看一下你們數發部的努力！這個app現在已經進入第二次公共測試，之前7個月的時間大概有1萬6,000個人下載，但實際有通報紀錄的大概只有2,000人，民眾對數發部的反映就是，大家認為都已經到了AI的時代了，你們還要自己識別、自己通報，然後還要花六、七千萬！所以目前為止的成效正如我剛剛說的，每個月警政署有2萬件的詐騙案，你們數發部花了七千多萬，7個月只有2,000人進行通報，這個數字的差距是非常大的！這個數據再加上民眾的反映，重點是你們如何界定什麼叫做詐騙案件？你們的標準是什麼？有些時候你們還判定說是什麼高風險、無法判斷，如果被界定為高風險的話，基本上都不太處理的！所以你們做這樣的app到底成效如何？就算你們一發現、被認定是詐騙案件（這是最高等級）好了，你覺得通告網路平臺叫業者下架需要多久時間？多久時間是很重要的！"],["葉次長寧：我可不可以請負責的林組長來說明？"],["柯委員志恩：好，要很快，因為我要進入AI基本法。"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員的提醒，以整個開發來講，我們從公測到現在大概通報了19萬件的詐騙廣告，經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架，這是第一點要報告的。再來就是我們所有案件的判斷其實是結合各部會，包括內政部……"],["柯委員志恩：所以需要多久時間？從民眾通報到你們真的讓它下架，平均需要多久的時間？"],["林組長青嶔：平均大概1到3天。因為中間的過程是要讓這個部會去……"],["柯委員志恩：好，你現在在這個地方說是需要1到3天的時間，還有一個最重要的部分，就是所有通報平臺下架的案件有高達96.8%是來自Meta，但是你要知道，一般老人會使用Instagram或Facebook嗎？其實不太用，他們主要是用LINE，但是你們通報LINE下架的案件只占0.99%，不到1%！所以你們這個平臺根本沒有辦法抓到群眾最常用的LINE的部分，這要怎麼處理？"],["林組長青嶔：有關LINE的部分，其實我們現在跟警政署合作，包括它的帳號如果有些部分有問題……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是告訴你，現在只有1%不到，而這才是老人最容易被詐騙的！所以數發部花了七千多萬元，我們也很期待，但是如果連LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話，那麼這個app其實沒有辦法發揮應有的效果。這是我要不斷強調的，好不好？"],["林組長青嶔：好。"],["柯委員志恩：而且為什麼會是這樣子？聯合國4月份在「Inflection 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17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}}