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00:01:06,827\n這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候\n\n4\n00:01:13,010 --> 00:01:30,624\n其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道\n\n5\n00:01:31,565 --> 00:01:34,348\n我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天\n\n6\n00:01:51,145 --> 00:01:55,429\n我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎\n\n7\n00:02:15,823 --> 00:02:34,278\n包委員那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了\n\n8\n00:02:34,861 --> 00:02:53,252\n好我覺得這個案子這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面\n\n9\n00:02:55,854 --> 00:03:18,582\n好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案\n\n10\n00:03:19,602 --> 00:03:34,525\n它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的\n\n11\n00:03:47,745 --> 00:04:05,356\n但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查\n\n12\n00:04:06,016 --> 00:04:09,921\n那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好\n\n13\n00:04:21,253 --> 00:04:41,108\n這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署\n\n14\n00:04:42,549 --> 00:05:09,383\n經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山\n\n15\n00:05:10,564 --> 00:05:17,968\n你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫我必須這樣子講違反自然環境破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少大家來看一下\n\n16\n00:05:29,548 --> 00:05:44,577\n他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少\n\n17\n00:05:48,048 --> 00:05:54,092\n368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的\n\n18\n00:06:06,713 --> 00:06:11,079\n為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢\n\n19\n00:06:21,533 --> 00:06:25,858\n其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫\n\n20\n00:06:39,654 --> 00:06:44,616\n如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他\n\n21\n00:06:56,641 --> 00:07:20,857\n其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受\n\n22\n00:07:21,567 --> 00:07:25,549\n但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返\n\n23\n00:07:43,352 --> 00:08:03,667\n這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好那能源署趕快上來這一個案子\n\n24\n00:08:12,096 --> 00:08:15,349\n我看錯我以為今天是產業發展署來能源署上來\n\n25\n00:08:19,525 --> 00:08:42,780\n這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎\n\n26\n00:08:44,656 --> 00:09:05,571\n謝謝委員的意見因為這個案子我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠它其實可以研議這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量二號街發電量多少來你說你知不知道\n\n27\n00:09:11,988 --> 00:09:32,595\n951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項\n\n28\n00:09:33,795 --> 00:09:59,813\n你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標\n\n29\n00:10:01,236 --> 00:10:14,658\n謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估\n\n30\n00:10:15,339 --> 00:10:38,966\n好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的\n\n31\n00:10:39,666 --> 00:10:54,197\n這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長\n\n32\n00:11:08,788 --> 00:11:14,398\n你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8219\t11060\t謝謝主席 我們有請部長請彭部長部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題這個台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案\n25868\t42947\t這一個案子請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山\n44415\t66827\t這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候\n73010\t90624\t其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道\n91565\t94348\t我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天\n111145\t115429\t我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎\n135823\t154278\t包委員 那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了\n154861\t173252\t好 我覺得這個案子 這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢 坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面\n175854\t198582\t好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案\n199602\t214525\t它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的\n227745\t245356\t但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查\n246016\t249921\t那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好\n261253\t281108\t這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署\n282549\t309383\t經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電 這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山\n310564\t317968\t你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下\n329548\t344577\t他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少\n348048\t354092\t368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的\n366713\t371079\t為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見 從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢\n381533\t385858\t其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫\n399654\t404616\t如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他\n416641\t440857\t其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受\n441567\t445549\t但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返\n463352\t483667\t這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子\n492096\t495349\t我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來\n499525\t522780\t這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎\n524656\t545571\t謝謝委員的意見 因為這個案子 我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦 如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠 它其實可以研議 這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量 二號街發電量多少 來你說你知不知道\n551988\t572595\t951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項\n573795\t599813\t你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標\n601236\t614658\t謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估\n615339\t638966\t好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的\n639666\t654197\t這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長\n668788\t674398\t你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長請彭部長部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題這個台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案\n這一個案子請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山\n這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候\n其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道\n我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天\n我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎\n包委員 那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了\n好 我覺得這個案子 這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢 坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面\n好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案\n它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的\n但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查\n那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好\n這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署\n經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電 這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山\n你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下\n他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少\n368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的\n為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見 從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢\n其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫\n如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他\n其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受\n但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返\n這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子\n我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來\n這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎\n謝謝委員的意見 因為這個案子 我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦 如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠 它其實可以研議 這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量 二號街發電量多少 來你說你知不知道\n951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項\n你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標\n謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估\n好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的\n這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長\n你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.219 --> 00:11.060\n謝謝主席我們有請部長請彭部長部長好部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題這個台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫抽蓄水利的開發案\n\n00:25.868 --> 00:42.947\n這一個案子請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是大家可以看一下他這一個案子呢他是要透過炸山\n\n00:44.415 --> 01:06.827\n這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候\n\n01:13.010 --> 01:30.624\n其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道\n\n01:31.565 --> 01:34.348\n我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天\n\n01:51.145 --> 01:55.429\n我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎\n\n02:15.823 --> 02:34.278\n包委員那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了\n\n02:34.861 --> 02:53.252\n好我覺得這個案子這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面\n\n02:55.854 --> 03:18.582\n好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案\n\n03:19.602 --> 03:34.525\n它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的\n\n03:47.745 --> 04:05.356\n但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查\n\n04:06.016 --> 04:09.921\n那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好\n\n04:21.253 --> 04:41.108\n這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署\n\n04:42.549 --> 05:09.383\n經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山\n\n05:10.564 --> 05:17.968\n你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫我必須這樣子講違反自然環境破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少大家來看一下\n\n05:29.548 --> 05:44.577\n他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少\n\n05:48.048 --> 05:54.092\n368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的\n\n06:06.713 --> 06:11.079\n為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢\n\n06:21.533 --> 06:25.858\n其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫\n\n06:39.654 --> 06:44.616\n如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他\n\n06:56.641 --> 07:20.857\n其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受\n\n07:21.567 --> 07:25.549\n但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返\n\n07:43.352 --> 08:03.667\n這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好那能源署趕快上來這一個案子\n\n08:12.096 --> 08:15.349\n我看錯我以為今天是產業發展署來能源署上來\n\n08:19.525 --> 08:42.780\n這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎\n\n08:44.656 --> 09:05.571\n謝謝委員的意見因為這個案子我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠它其實可以研議這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量二號街發電量多少來你說你知不知道\n\n09:11.988 --> 09:32.595\n951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項\n\n09:33.795 --> 09:59.813\n你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標\n\n10:01.236 --> 10:14.658\n謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估\n\n10:15.339 --> 10:38.966\n好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的\n\n10:39.666 --> 10:54.197\n這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長\n\n11:08.788 --> 11:14.398\n你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.219,"end":11.06,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長請彭部長部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題這個台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案"},{"start":25.868,"end":42.947,"text":"這一個案子請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山"},{"start":44.415,"end":66.827,"text":"這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候"},{"start":73.01,"end":90.624,"text":"其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道"},{"start":91.565,"end":94.348,"text":"我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天"},{"start":111.145,"end":115.429,"text":"我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎"},{"start":135.823,"end":154.278,"text":"包委員 那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了"},{"start":154.861,"end":173.252,"text":"好 我覺得這個案子 這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢 坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面"},{"start":175.854,"end":198.582,"text":"好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案"},{"start":199.602,"end":214.525,"text":"它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的"},{"start":227.745,"end":245.356,"text":"但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查"},{"start":246.016,"end":249.921,"text":"那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好"},{"start":261.253,"end":281.108,"text":"這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署"},{"start":282.549,"end":309.383,"text":"經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電 這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山"},{"start":310.564,"end":317.968,"text":"你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下"},{"start":329.548,"end":344.577,"text":"他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少"},{"start":348.048,"end":354.092,"text":"368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的"},{"start":366.713,"end":371.079,"text":"為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見 從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢"},{"start":381.533,"end":385.858,"text":"其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫"},{"start":399.654,"end":404.616,"text":"如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他"},{"start":416.641,"end":440.857,"text":"其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受"},{"start":441.567,"end":445.549,"text":"但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返"},{"start":463.352,"end":483.667,"text":"這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子"},{"start":492.096,"end":495.349,"text":"我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來"},{"start":499.525,"end":522.78,"text":"這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎"},{"start":524.656,"end":545.571,"text":"謝謝委員的意見 因為這個案子 我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦 如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠 它其實可以研議 這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量 二號街發電量多少 來你說你知不知道"},{"start":551.988,"end":572.595,"text":"951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項"},{"start":573.795,"end":599.813,"text":"你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標"},{"start":601.236,"end":614.658,"text":"謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估"},{"start":615.339,"end":638.966,"text":"好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的"},{"start":639.666,"end":654.197,"text":"這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長"},{"start":668.788,"end":674.398,"text":"你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我今天要跟你討論環評的議題，台電有一個大甲溪光明抽蓄水力計畫的開發案，請問部長這個案子你有所了解嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道，它現在是補正再審。"],["王委員育敏：補正再審嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：這個案子環團已經站出來抗議，大家可以看一下，這一個案子是要透炸山開挖隧道長達10公里，然後貫穿德基、谷關兩座水庫，而且它位處於地震帶。大家都知道整個中橫的地質非常敏感且脆弱，2004年還曾發生過七二水災，當時水災發生的時候，其實大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀，德基、天輪、谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入，更不用說現在的中橫都還沒有雙向通車，都是便道。我曾經擔任過臺中市副市長，也曾經到和平去，沿路這樣子上去，坦白講，我看到是有點覺得怵目驚心，就是那一帶的地質狀況，的確是像環團所講的敏感而且脆弱。但是今天我們竟然號稱綠電要在那個地方炸山，這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山，然後標榜我們發展出來的是綠電！我要請教部長，作為環境部，這樣子的開發案你真的認為適當嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那天的環評會議不是我主持的，不過據我了解目前還在初審當中，環評委員有提出斷層、地質及生態的問題，所以不是只有環保團體有意見，其實環評委員也有意見，要他們補正說明再審，所以這其實已經很清楚了。"],["王委員育敏：針對這一個案子，環境部要做好把關的角色，其實在第一次的環評意見裡面就已經很充分的說明了，就是要強化地質調查及安全評估作業，但是在第二次的環評審查裡面，針對這個部分並沒有太多的著墨跟說明，好像就直接忘記這件事情，然後談的都是土石方管理、放置的問題，但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估才是重中之重！站在環境部的角度，如果今天有一個開發案是破壞環境而且難以回復，這個問題本質才是最嚴重的，土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題。所以我要就教部長的就是，關於第一階段環評的結論，為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了？"],["彭部長啓明：有啊，現在進入二階的時候，它就要加強地質調查的結果，所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的。"],["王委員育敏：但是它沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以到二階呢？這個部分有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估報告出來嗎？因為一階的時候要求這個部分是重點。"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，因為這個在地質敏感區，所以依照地質法，它本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查，這個有放在它的附錄裡面，除了委員有去審視附錄的完整地質調查報告以外，我們環境部也會要求，就是我們會委託一個專業的地質技師公會提供第三方意見供委員做參考。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分我覺得非常重要，而且是環境部應該去把關的地方，因為就這個案子來講，它曾經在很早年提出來，但是後來其實就已經停辦，到2016年的時候是因為缺電了，坦白講是因為缺電，今天經濟部也有代表，但是是產業署、不是能源署，經濟部、行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫，那也就代表是在缺電的情況底下才啟動的，但是我覺得這個跟我們所標榜、號稱的綠電差太遠，所謂的水力發電應該是運用自然的地形，它可以達到這樣的條件，你去發電我都非常贊成，但你今天明明達不到這個條件，你還要去炸山，你覺得人定勝天、還要炸山，而且在地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件，我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫！我必須這樣子講，違反自然環境、破壞自然環境。","更重要的是，它的發電量才多少？大家來看一下，它這樣子大費周章去開發、花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫，以為可以弄得人定勝天，結果它的發電量原本規劃的才多少？368MW，其實也才這樣而已。那我覺得更離譜的是，怎麼會有環評大會開完之後說，你要擴大你的開發規模，從原來的368MW要增加到740MW，有這種環評大會嗎？是怎麼開的？為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張？過去很罕見、從來沒有看過，一般開發量體是越小越好，結果有環評大會開完之後要求加大它的開發規模，怎麼會這樣子呢？"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，因為這個案子依法要進行二階的環評，而二階環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議，範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外，還有一個很重要的就是要討論替代方案，所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候，有委員提出針對這樣子的一個開發計畫如果要進行開發，要不要考慮做規模的替代，因為如果要一次施工的話，他希望可以就庫容的範圍去做一個最高規模的評估，但這只是委員的建議，台電也說它會回去評估，所以它其實是依照範疇界定委員的建議去評估。","就我們的了解，像剛剛委員關心的炸山問題，因為它要新設一個頭水隧道10公里，不管是368MW或者是610MW，都要蓋那一條隧道，既然都要蓋那條隧道，因此委員說這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高，請他們去評估，但是並沒有一定要他們接受。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在好像這個就變成結論了，而且也一直這樣子講。我要講的是，你現在又破壞環境，然後又是這樣的經費，其實換來的大概最多也是610MW發電量，但是會造成生態上面的浩劫、一去不復返。這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部省省吧，不要用破壞環境……一方面告訴大家不缺電、一方面又想要破壞環境來換得這樣的發電量。事實上，經濟部你有很多的選擇，今天經濟部有代表來，雖然不是能源署，是不是也上來？回去一定要轉達。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：是能源署。"],["王委員育敏：是能源署，是不是？"],["主席：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，那能源署趕快上來！這一個案子……"],["主席：趕快上來。"],["王委員育敏：我看錯，我以為今天是產業發展署來，能源署上來。這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的，而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的、是行政院的定調。能源署的代表，這個案子剛剛環境部的態度也很清楚，覺得你們這個對於生態的影響其實非常大、恐怕會造成生態的浩劫，你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎？"],["鄭副組長如閔：謝謝委員的意見，這個案子我想委員的建議我們會整體納入考量，因為……"],["王委員育敏：我在這邊給你一個具體的建議，如果你真的缺電的話，昨天立法院才剛通過核三廠可以延役，這個也是你的選項，核三廠2號機的發電量多少，你知不知道？"],["鄭副組長如閔：九百多MW。"],["王委員育敏：對，951MW，我要讓各位看到的就是，核三廠2號機的延役、951MW，不必炸山、不必破壞、也不會造成生態的浩劫，而且立法院昨天已經通過了，讓你們經濟部可以審慎評估，在安全的情況底下讓它可以發電，這個就是你其中一個選項。你現在因為缺電，特別是夜間缺電，所以你想辦法要去大甲溪、又要去炸山，然後要來弄這個光明抽蓄水力發電，你這個又耗時、又破壞生態、發電量又小，經濟部真的回去好好思考一下，當你有選擇權的時候，有沒有要一意孤行、一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的發電目標？"],["鄭副組長如閔：謝謝委員的意見，我們在做整體電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量，不管是對生態或是法規的規定，還是謝謝委員，委員的意見我們會做整體的評估。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望今天可以把我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去，我覺得整個政府的能源政策要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討，特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題，我們絕對不接受你用破壞生態、炸山、在地質敏感地區，然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的新水力發電計畫，這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神、也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神。所以我要求部長，如果經濟部執意要繼續往下開發，我想在二階環評的時候，你們就是真正可以為民眾守護住整個環境永續的一個很重要單位，這個部分我希望部長把你的專業拿出來，好好的、嚴格的審議，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝王委員。","委員會這邊宣告：蘇清泉召委質詢詢答結束，我們休息10分鐘。","接下來請黃秀芳委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}}