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\"根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 252.048, \"end\": 252.268, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 252.268, \"end\": 252.448, \"score\": 0.555}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 252.448, \"end\": 252.668, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 252.668, \"end\": 252.909, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 252.909, \"end\": 253.089, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 253.089, \"end\": 253.269, \"score\": 0.518}, {\"word\": \"穿\", \"start\": 253.269, \"end\": 253.429, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 253.429, \"end\": 253.589, \"score\": 0.51}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 253.589, \"end\": 253.729, \"score\": 0.555}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 253.729, \"end\": 253.909, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 253.909, \"end\": 254.109, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 254.109, \"end\": 254.43, \"score\": 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\"end\": 258.452, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 258.452, \"end\": 258.472, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 258.472, \"end\": 258.492, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"藥\"}, {\"word\": \"攻\", \"start\": 258.492, \"end\": 258.573, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 258.573, \"end\": 258.593, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 258.593, \"end\": 258.613, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 258.613, \"end\": 258.633, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 258.633, \"end\": 258.653, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 271.101, \"end\": 281.031, \"text\": \"那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 271.101, \"end\": 271.261, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 271.261, \"end\": 271.481, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 271.481, \"end\": 271.782, \"score\": 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337.33, \"text\": \"陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"訓\"}, {\"word\": \"練\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 320.494, \"end\": 321.415, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 321.415, \"end\": 321.535, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 321.535, \"end\": 321.776, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 321.776, \"end\": 321.896, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 321.896, \"end\": 322.076, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 322.076, \"end\": 322.376, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 322.376, \"end\": 322.897, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 322.897, \"end\": 323.017, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 323.017, \"end\": 323.157, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 323.157, \"end\": 323.297, 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410.125, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 425.916, \"end\": 427.618, \"text\": \"還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 425.916, \"end\": 425.936, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 425.936, \"end\": 425.976, \"score\": 0.472}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 425.976, \"end\": 425.996, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 425.996, \"end\": 426.016, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 426.016, \"end\": 426.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 426.036, \"end\": 426.056, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 426.056, \"end\": 426.076, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 426.076, \"end\": 426.116, \"score\": 0.461}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"銳\"}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 426.116, \"end\": 426.136, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:11,315\n謝謝主席,有請國防部副部長有請部長是,林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:12,301 --> 00:00:34,788\n部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長\n\n3\n00:00:44,471 --> 00:00:50,087\n包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少預算你都不知道\n\n4\n00:00:55,452 --> 00:00:57,254\n好那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要\n\n5\n00:01:15,496 --> 00:01:27,871\n從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想\n\n6\n00:01:34,338 --> 00:01:37,500\n這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢\n\n7\n00:01:55,314 --> 00:02:06,042\n還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛\n\n8\n00:02:12,486 --> 00:02:28,485\n到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526\n\n9\n00:02:33,208 --> 00:02:38,853\n是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶\n\n10\n00:02:57,573 --> 00:03:01,355\n如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了\n\n11\n00:03:18,763 --> 00:03:22,425\n所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約\n\n12\n00:03:43,653 --> 00:04:05,084\n美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題\n\n13\n00:04:12,048 --> 00:04:18,653\n根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性\n\n14\n00:04:31,101 --> 00:04:41,031\n那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的\n\n15\n00:04:50,720 --> 00:05:19,414\n安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的\n\n16\n00:05:20,494 --> 00:05:37,330\n陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確\n\n17\n00:05:41,554 --> 00:05:58,893\n標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長\n\n18\n00:05:59,734 --> 00:06:02,317\n你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢\n\n19\n00:06:17,258 --> 00:06:38,314\n所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm\n\n20\n00:06:44,021 --> 00:06:50,125\n主席再給我一分鐘一下好接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢\n\n21\n00:07:05,916 --> 00:07:07,618\n還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢\n\n22\n00:07:24,358 --> 00:07:27,481\n然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來\n\n23\n00:07:43,017 --> 00:07:46,641\n國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎\n\n24\n00:08:02,255 --> 00:08:26,816\n這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然\n\n25\n00:08:27,597 --> 00:08:48,967\n我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品\n\n26\n00:08:50,872 --> 00:09:16,087\n我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決\n\n27\n00:09:17,407 --> 00:09:24,170\n這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來\n\n28\n00:09:42,977 --> 00:09:47,788\n萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t11315\t謝謝主席,有請國防部副部長有請部長是,林委員好\n12301\t34788\t部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長\n44471\t50087\t包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少預算你都不知道\n55452\t57254\t好 那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要\n75496\t87871\t從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想\n94338\t97500\t這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢\n115314\t126042\t還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛\n132486\t148485\t到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526\n153208\t158853\t是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶\n177573\t181355\t如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了\n198763\t202425\t所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約\n223653\t245084\t美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題\n252048\t258653\t根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性\n271101\t281031\t那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的\n290720\t319414\t安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的\n320494\t337330\t陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確\n341554\t358893\t標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長\n359734\t362317\t你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢\n377258\t398314\t所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm\n404021\t410125\t主席再給我一分鐘一下好 接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢\n425916\t427618\t還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢\n444358\t447481\t然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來\n463017\t466641\t國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎\n482255\t506816\t這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然\n507597\t528967\t我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品\n530872\t556087\t我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決\n557407\t564170\t這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來\n582977\t587788\t萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請國防部副部長有請部長是,林委員好\n部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長\n包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少預算你都不知道\n好 那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要\n從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想\n這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢\n還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛\n到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526\n是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶\n如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了\n所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約\n美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題\n根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性\n那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的\n安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的\n陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確\n標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長\n你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢\n所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm\n主席再給我一分鐘一下好 接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢\n還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢\n然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來\n國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎\n這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然\n我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品\n我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決\n這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來\n萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:11.315\n謝謝主席,有請國防部副部長有請部長是,林委員好\n\n00:12.301 --> 00:34.788\n部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長\n\n00:44.471 --> 00:50.087\n包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少預算你都不知道\n\n00:55.452 --> 00:57.254\n好那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要\n\n01:15.496 --> 01:27.871\n從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想\n\n01:34.338 --> 01:37.500\n這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢\n\n01:55.314 --> 02:06.042\n還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛\n\n02:12.486 --> 02:28.485\n到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526\n\n02:33.208 --> 02:38.853\n是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶\n\n02:57.573 --> 03:01.355\n如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了\n\n03:18.763 --> 03:22.425\n所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約\n\n03:43.653 --> 04:05.084\n美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題\n\n04:12.048 --> 04:18.653\n根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性\n\n04:31.101 --> 04:41.031\n那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的\n\n04:50.720 --> 05:19.414\n安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的\n\n05:20.494 --> 05:37.330\n陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確\n\n05:41.554 --> 05:58.893\n標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長\n\n05:59.734 --> 06:02.317\n你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢\n\n06:17.258 --> 06:38.314\n所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm\n\n06:44.021 --> 06:50.125\n主席再給我一分鐘一下好接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢\n\n07:05.916 --> 07:07.618\n還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢\n\n07:24.358 --> 07:27.481\n然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來\n\n07:43.017 --> 07:46.641\n國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎\n\n08:02.255 --> 08:26.816\n這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然\n\n08:27.597 --> 08:48.967\n我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品\n\n08:50.872 --> 09:16.087\n我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決\n\n09:17.407 --> 09:24.170\n這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來\n\n09:42.977 --> 09:47.788\n萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":11.315,"text":"謝謝主席,有請國防部副部長有請部長是,林委員好"},{"start":12.301,"end":34.788,"text":"部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長"},{"start":44.471,"end":50.087,"text":"包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少預算你都不知道"},{"start":55.452,"end":57.254,"text":"好 那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要"},{"start":75.496,"end":87.871,"text":"從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想"},{"start":94.338,"end":97.5,"text":"這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢"},{"start":115.314,"end":126.042,"text":"還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛"},{"start":132.486,"end":148.485,"text":"到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526"},{"start":153.208,"end":158.853,"text":"是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶"},{"start":177.573,"end":181.355,"text":"如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了"},{"start":198.763,"end":202.425,"text":"所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約"},{"start":223.653,"end":245.084,"text":"美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題"},{"start":252.048,"end":258.653,"text":"根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性"},{"start":271.101,"end":281.031,"text":"那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的"},{"start":290.72,"end":319.414,"text":"安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的"},{"start":320.494,"end":337.33,"text":"陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確"},{"start":341.554,"end":358.893,"text":"標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長"},{"start":359.734,"end":362.317,"text":"你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢"},{"start":377.258,"end":398.314,"text":"所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm"},{"start":404.021,"end":410.125,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘一下好 接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢"},{"start":425.916,"end":427.618,"text":"還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢"},{"start":444.358,"end":447.481,"text":"然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來"},{"start":463.017,"end":466.641,"text":"國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎"},{"start":482.255,"end":506.816,"text":"這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然"},{"start":507.597,"end":528.967,"text":"我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品"},{"start":530.872,"end":556.087,"text":"我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決"},{"start":557.407,"end":564.17,"text":"這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來"},{"start":582.977,"end":587.788,"text":"萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長早。針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中，有一些紅隼火箭彈委製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下。首先我當然要先強調我們是百分之百支持國防自主，請問陸軍今年編了多少預算，要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅隼火箭彈呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我請陸軍參謀長說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個我下去再了解一下。"],["林委員憶君：你連編了多少預算都不知道？"],["陳參謀長建義：今年……"],["林委員憶君：沒關係，我先問下一個問題好了。部長，你知道中科院國造的紅隼火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼嗎？是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能？我覺得它被質疑的最大問題是穿透力不足的問題。在今天國防部預算解凍案的書面報告當中，我有看到在中科院的書面報告上提到紅隼火箭彈的穿透力測試是參照美軍MILSTD-2105D以及北約AOP-4526對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：是……"],["顧部長立雄：這部分請中科院先說明。"],["李院長世強：報告委員，是的，沒有錯。"],["林委員憶君：既然是的話，以你們送來的解凍正式關係文書書面報告來看，你們參照的標準究竟是AOP-4256還是AOP-4526呢？還是連報告都寫錯？如果你們連最基本的書面報告都寫錯的話，我們怎麼能信任國防自主的能力能夠保衛國家安全呢？你們看一下螢幕，到底是4526還是4256呢？整個報告是不是完全錯誤？這部分請中科院做一個解釋。"],["李院長世強：應該是4256，陸軍的報告可能有誤植。"],["林委員憶君：你說應該是4256，但是這個圖寫的明明是4526，應該是4526吧！但是你們整個報告從頭到尾都是寫4256，你們自己是不是要先看清楚？為什麼連報告都會寫錯？"],["李院長世強：這個資料是我們給陸軍，可能後來我們沒有再幫陸軍檢查。"],["林委員憶君：這個是蠻大的問題耶！麻煩之後再給我一個答案。如果是按照北約AOP-4526的標準進行穿透力測試，從這份報告我發現了兩個問題：第一個問題，如果你們是採用2018年發行的第一版，但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了，也就是說，北約根據威脅型態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準，結果國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版測試，到底是一開始就用錯了標準，還是整個版本是錯誤的呢？第二個問題才是最大的問題，我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份美軍跟北約的技術文件，到底我們在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢？我看完全是安全性測試的標準和指引吧！中科院現在已經自行研發國造紅隼火箭彈，現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題，而你們送來的解凍案報告裡面的說明，這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題，根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準。我們再看一下簡報，上面顯示中科院所採取的是AOP-4526的標準，這個文件的內容也寫得非常非常清楚，就是要解決彈藥和裝備受到成形裝藥攻擊的安全性。我們再來看美軍這方面的文件，上面也是彈藥安全指引的文件。從剛才看到現在，我們可以下一個結論，這個根本跟穿透力測試都無關，我覺得這兩個彈藥安全性的測試與紅隼火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係。如果要測試穿透力的話，是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準？平常好像是採用這種標準比較多，這樣是不是會比較適合呢？想請中科院說明一下。"],["李院長世強：我先跟您報告一下，關於火箭彈的軍規標準，它用的就是安全測試標準，剛剛委員有講到美軍的ATP，那是他們的陸軍訓練準則標準，但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試。關於我們的穿透力測試，我們做的測試就是能完成多少穿透力，這方面我們有實際的證據，同時我們也在報告裡面顯示穿透力的數字。在我們給陸軍的專案報告裡面，的確標準後來有被誤植，我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來，這是中科院的錯，我們會承認。"],["林委員憶君：所以你們有穿透力的數值嘛！"],["李院長世強：是。"],["林委員憶君：到時候再送到本席辦公室來讓我看一下。"],["李院長世強：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員憶君：剛才我不斷的提問都是跟穿透力有關，現在我再回歸最基本的安全性。請問部長，為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命安全，紅隼火箭彈到底有沒有一些安全性的相關測試？我們看一下螢幕上面的這些測試，你們是不是都已經完整的做完了？還是只有做一部分？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，所有事關弟兄安全的部分，我們講的標準就是安全測試標準，針對這個安全測試標準，我們當然是一定要完成才能讓部隊去使用，我想一直使用到現在……"],["林委員憶君：所以現在整個都已經完成了對不對？"],["李院長世強：是。另外再補充一下，我們現在對均質鋼板的穿透力有很明確的測試到300mm。"],["林委員憶君：麻煩主席再給我1分鐘。接下來我要問的是，在國造無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件，請教部長，我們說要國防自主，為什麼我們自己的國造無人機上面會有中國製造零件的裝置呢？難道臺灣沒有能力生產這種零件嗎？還是零件只有中國才有呢？另外我還發現中科院研發的銳鳶二型上面也有中國製零件，目前清查的情況是怎麼樣呢？依照合約對於零件供應廠商要如何處置呢？是罰款還是解約？因為時間不夠，我就一起講一講，銳鳶二型的中國製零件有兩個，一個是通信模組，另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置，而且這些通信模組都是用在無人機的主鏈路上面。如果主鏈路上面有中國製的零件，會不會對未來國軍實際操作的演練構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害？會不會以後無人機飛上去，不管偵測到什麼、看到什麼，在資料還沒有回傳臺灣之前都已經回傳到對岸了呢？這部分可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎？"],["李院長世強：這部分由中科院來回答。第一個，這兩型無人機都還沒有量產，目前還在試研製的階段，在試研製階段的話，這些東西是從國外進口的，我們在進口檢驗的時候，發現裡面的SD卡的確是中國製的，所以我們就要求原廠要能更換，然後我們在臺灣自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西，協助他來更換。我們從國外進口很多東西，雖然我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定，但是對於製作的過程，因為我不可能到國外去做製程的查核，所以都是在進口後我們最後檢驗的時候發現，然後我們就協助他更換，也同時協助這個廠商在我們臺灣建立非紅的供應鏈，這是我們可以做的，也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品。"],["顧部長立雄：我跟委員報告，我想做最後的總結，國防部的立場就是我們希望所有相關產品能夠在臺灣有一個完全的製程，這樣我們就能夠避免，那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換。關於量產，我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的生產供應鏈？就是因為這樣才能夠真正有效杜絕中國製的產品進口。"],["林委員憶君：好，我們希望不要再發生這種事情，我想請國防部會後在一個月內遞交一個書面報告給本席，說明勁蜂一型還有銳鳶二型這兩款無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件、針對這些缺失還有供應商你們會採取什麼樣的措施、在未來投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時31分）","繼續開會（10時41分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來有請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}}