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\"start\": 794.318, \"end\": 794.599, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 794.599, \"end\": 794.94, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 794.94, \"end\": 795.221, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 795.221, \"end\": 795.442, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 795.442, \"end\": 795.643, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 795.643, \"end\": 796.405, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"壓\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 796.405, \"end\": 796.606, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 796.606, \"end\": 796.827, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 796.827, \"end\": 797.349, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 797.349, \"end\": 797.73, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 797.73, \"end\": 797.89, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 797.89, \"end\": 798.051, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 798.051, \"end\": 798.071, \"score\": 0.042}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,645 --> 00:00:13,574\n主席好主席我想请这个陈部长您也不陈部长我也好\n\n2\n00:00:20,999 --> 00:00:44,513\n部長早那我看到針對這次農業部因應美國關稅所提出的這個措施有不同的這個品項的補助金額落差相當的大那目前公告的標準如與每公斤是補助10元然後鬼頭刀是19元但是無關於只有5元請問這樣子的金額差異是依據什麼樣子的\n\n3\n00:00:49,556 --> 00:01:17,706\n這個資料來訂定的我想第一個跟委員說明就是我們在外銷獎勵的時候的一個補助的一個每公斤的價位會跟他的產品本身的價值還有他關稅現在目前的關稅的一個比例那我們現在目前估的都是以10%的關稅因為現在未來的關稅不確定性那10%的關稅也不一定是全部是我們國內自己付的他會跟\n\n4\n00:01:18,506 --> 00:01:33,467\n對方去做拆帳然後還有非常多的因素在那邊去調整所以以吳國瑜來講如果每公斤五塊以泉魚來講其實他已經超過了二分之一但是以魚片來講他是比二分之一還低啦\n\n5\n00:01:34,828 --> 00:01:52,374\n這就是本席想要跟您討論的因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部他們給我的訊息就是這樣子就是補助的比例可能是吳國瑜如果是全瑜是已經占了二分之一等等但是\n\n6\n00:01:54,595 --> 00:02:00,080\n本席仔細看了一下這整個資料我發現假設用這樣子的推論的話鱸魚鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是無過於出口價格的二至四倍才對啊但事實上完全不是這樣啊\n\n7\n00:02:13,028 --> 00:02:28,659\n我跟委員說明喔外銷獎勵它只是一個獎勵性質它不是一個實質補貼它的關稅的一個成本這個第一個觀念要說明的我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下好不好就是依據中華民國養殖漁業協會三月的統計\n\n8\n00:02:33,162 --> 00:02:45,033\n這個出口資料顯示吳國瑜的切片每公斤是363.8元然後冷凍吳國瑜整條的話每公斤是85.2元那鱸魚每公斤\n\n9\n00:02:49,637 --> 00:03:05,307\n鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元鱸魚的這個調動呢是128.3元那這樣就不合理啦所以本席強烈懷疑喔你們當初在算無鮭魚的時候是用這個無鮭魚的條\n\n10\n00:03:08,249 --> 00:03:26,347\n動去算而不是用無辜魚的魚片去算所以這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下呢我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我們所有的未來獎勵我們會來做一個滾動監討這第一個第二個部分就是\n\n11\n00:03:26,967 --> 00:03:32,269\n我還是再次說明我們在為他獎勵是一個獎勵性質不是一個你獎勵性質但你不能懲罰怎麼會鬼頭刀19元然後這個吳國瑜5元這不是獎勵耶這等於是懲罰養吳國瑜的嘛我懲罰就是我收我收到的錢才被懲罰我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢我的意思是說你如果要去訂這個獎勵的\n\n12\n00:03:52,454 --> 00:03:57,956\n這個金額你是不是要有一點依據嘛我現在這裡也有這個業者提供的出口報價單出口美國的無鮭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元那則算台幣也都是300多元那這個價格其實是跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合\n\n13\n00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:28,910\n那既然價格更高關稅的徵集損失應該更大為什麼補助卻是最少呢是不是有點不大合理呢我剛才已經說了齁相關的外交獎勵我們會去滾動檢討但是我還但是我現在就請教部長假設是算錯了假設是拿錯數據了是不是要盡快的我現在就問你假設是\n\n14\n00:04:38,197 --> 00:04:44,881\n算錯或是拿錯數據了我相信不會有算錯這件事情那你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元然後吳郭魚5元你的依據是什麼來主長你的依據是什麼\n\n15\n00:04:51,899 --> 00:05:16,493\n我代表農業部我來講你講依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧\n\n16\n00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:30,988\n吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討\n\n17\n00:05:43,737 --> 00:05:46,120\n那你就說嘛文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據你講出來你講出來你能說服我我也覺得OK但是你現在提的沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那下一個\n\n18\n00:06:00,629 --> 00:06:11,555\n所以呢你要滾動式檢討我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快不是說現在大家都傻住了傻住說我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助人家補助10元19元你補助他5元\n\n19\n00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:23,723\n我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次\n\n20\n00:06:45,652 --> 00:06:49,656\n您到雲林來跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談您記得嗎\n\n21\n00:06:52,551 --> 00:07:06,856\n我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社\n\n22\n00:07:22,242 --> 00:07:27,667\n所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢\n\n23\n00:07:41,955 --> 00:07:55,154\n我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主\n\n24\n00:07:56,721 --> 00:08:05,767\n你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段\n\n25\n00:08:22,658 --> 00:08:36,358\n漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範\n\n26\n00:08:38,621 --> 00:08:52,434\n我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範\n\n27\n00:08:56,397 --> 00:09:10,948\n要有一定的規範這樣大家有理有據可以來執行可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做你也要來申請這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說欸部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有包括\n\n28\n00:09:21,095 --> 00:09:45,117\n這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長\n\n29\n00:09:50,342 --> 00:10:10,609\n次長針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話\n\n30\n00:10:15,770 --> 00:10:35,246\n跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了\n\n31\n00:10:35,706 --> 00:10:41,751\n國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎\n\n32\n00:11:03,739 --> 00:11:18,421\n跟文報告其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎我覺得這是整個\n\n33\n00:11:19,102 --> 00:11:36,832\n國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論\n\n34\n00:11:42,995 --> 00:12:07,010\n尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎\n\n35\n00:12:11,172 --> 00:12:16,095\n其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下\n\n36\n00:12:30,865 --> 00:12:46,361\n其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果\n\n37\n00:12:48,623 --> 00:12:55,786\n發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業\n\n38\n00:13:13,334 --> 00:13:18,071\n也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7645\t13574\t主席好主席我想请这个陈部长您也不陈部长我也好\n20999\t44513\t部長早那我看到針對這次農業部因應美國關稅所提出的這個措施有不同的這個品項的補助金額落差相當的大那目前公告的標準如與每公斤是補助10元然後鬼頭刀是19元但是無關於只有5元請問這樣子的金額差異是依據什麼樣子的\n49556\t77706\t這個資料來訂定的我想第一個跟委員說明就是我們在外銷獎勵的時候的一個補助的一個每公斤的價位會跟他的產品本身的價值還有他關稅現在目前的關稅的一個比例那我們現在目前估的都是以10%的關稅因為現在未來的關稅不確定性那10%的關稅也不一定是全部是我們國內自己付的他會跟\n78506\t93467\t對方去做拆帳然後還有非常多的因素在那邊去調整所以以吳國瑜來講如果每公斤五塊以泉魚來講其實他已經超過了二分之一但是以魚片來講他是比二分之一還低啦\n94828\t112374\t這就是本席想要跟您討論的因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部他們給我的訊息就是這樣子就是補助的比例可能是吳國瑜如果是全瑜是已經占了二分之一等等但是\n114595\t120080\t本席仔細看了一下這整個資料我發現假設用這樣子的推論的話鱸魚鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是無過於出口價格的二至四倍才對啊但事實上完全不是這樣啊\n133028\t148659\t我跟委員說明喔外銷獎勵它只是一個獎勵性質它不是一個實質補貼它的關稅的一個成本這個第一個觀念要說明的我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下好不好就是依據中華民國養殖漁業協會三月的統計\n153162\t165033\t這個出口資料顯示吳國瑜的切片每公斤是363.8元然後冷凍吳國瑜整條的話每公斤是85.2元那鱸魚每公斤\n169637\t185307\t鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元鱸魚的這個調動呢是128.3元那這樣就不合理啦所以本席強烈懷疑喔你們當初在算無鮭魚的時候是用這個無鮭魚的條\n188249\t206347\t動去算而不是用無辜魚的魚片去算所以這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下呢我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我們所有的未來獎勵我們會來做一個滾動監討這第一個第二個部分就是\n206967\t212269\t我還是再次說明我們在為他獎勵是一個獎勵性質不是一個你獎勵性質但你不能懲罰怎麼會鬼頭刀19元然後這個吳國瑜5元這不是獎勵耶這等於是懲罰養吳國瑜的嘛我懲罰就是我收我收到的錢才被懲罰我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢我的意思是說你如果要去訂這個獎勵的\n232454\t237956\t這個金額你是不是要有一點依據嘛我現在這裡也有這個業者提供的出口報價單出口美國的無鮭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元那則算台幣也都是300多元那這個價格其實是跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合\n254420\t268910\t那既然價格更高關稅的徵集損失應該更大為什麼補助卻是最少呢是不是有點不大合理呢我剛才已經說了齁相關的外交獎勵我們會去滾動檢討但是我還但是我現在就請教部長假設是算錯了假設是拿錯數據了是不是要盡快的我現在就問你假設是\n278197\t284881\t算錯或是拿錯數據了我相信不會有算錯這件事情那你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元然後吳郭魚5元你的依據是什麼來 主長你的依據是什麼\n291899\t316493\t我代表農業部我來講你講 依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種 根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你 第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧\n319920\t330988\t吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討\n343737\t346120\t那你就說嘛 文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據 你講出來你講出來你能說服我 我也覺得OK但是你現在提的 沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那 下一個\n360629\t371555\t所以呢 你要滾動式檢討 我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快 不是說 現在大家都傻住了傻住說 我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片 比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助 人家補助10元 19元 你補助他5元\n380100\t383723\t我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命 打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次\n405652\t409656\t您到雲林來 跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談 您記得嗎\n412551\t426856\t我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社\n442242\t447667\t所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢\n461955\t475154\t我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主\n476721\t485767\t你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有 那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段\n502658\t516358\t漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範\n518621\t532434\t我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對 我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是 這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範\n536397\t550948\t要有一定的規範 這樣大家有理有據 可以來執行 可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做 你也要來申請 這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說 欸 部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去 他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有 包括\n561095\t585117\t這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長\n590342\t610609\t次長 針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話\n615770\t635246\t跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了\n635706\t641751\t國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎\n663739\t678421\t跟文報告 其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛 你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎 我覺得這是整個\n679102\t696832\t國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論\n702995\t727010\t尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎\n731172\t736095\t其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下\n750865\t766361\t其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果\n768623\t775786\t發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP 0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業\n793334\t798071\t也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝\n","txt":"主席好主席我想请这个陈部长您也不陈部长我也好\n部長早那我看到針對這次農業部因應美國關稅所提出的這個措施有不同的這個品項的補助金額落差相當的大那目前公告的標準如與每公斤是補助10元然後鬼頭刀是19元但是無關於只有5元請問這樣子的金額差異是依據什麼樣子的\n這個資料來訂定的我想第一個跟委員說明就是我們在外銷獎勵的時候的一個補助的一個每公斤的價位會跟他的產品本身的價值還有他關稅現在目前的關稅的一個比例那我們現在目前估的都是以10%的關稅因為現在未來的關稅不確定性那10%的關稅也不一定是全部是我們國內自己付的他會跟\n對方去做拆帳然後還有非常多的因素在那邊去調整所以以吳國瑜來講如果每公斤五塊以泉魚來講其實他已經超過了二分之一但是以魚片來講他是比二分之一還低啦\n這就是本席想要跟您討論的因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部他們給我的訊息就是這樣子就是補助的比例可能是吳國瑜如果是全瑜是已經占了二分之一等等但是\n本席仔細看了一下這整個資料我發現假設用這樣子的推論的話鱸魚鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是無過於出口價格的二至四倍才對啊但事實上完全不是這樣啊\n我跟委員說明喔外銷獎勵它只是一個獎勵性質它不是一個實質補貼它的關稅的一個成本這個第一個觀念要說明的我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下好不好就是依據中華民國養殖漁業協會三月的統計\n這個出口資料顯示吳國瑜的切片每公斤是363.8元然後冷凍吳國瑜整條的話每公斤是85.2元那鱸魚每公斤\n鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元鱸魚的這個調動呢是128.3元那這樣就不合理啦所以本席強烈懷疑喔你們當初在算無鮭魚的時候是用這個無鮭魚的條\n動去算而不是用無辜魚的魚片去算所以這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下呢我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我們所有的未來獎勵我們會來做一個滾動監討這第一個第二個部分就是\n我還是再次說明我們在為他獎勵是一個獎勵性質不是一個你獎勵性質但你不能懲罰怎麼會鬼頭刀19元然後這個吳國瑜5元這不是獎勵耶這等於是懲罰養吳國瑜的嘛我懲罰就是我收我收到的錢才被懲罰我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢我的意思是說你如果要去訂這個獎勵的\n這個金額你是不是要有一點依據嘛我現在這裡也有這個業者提供的出口報價單出口美國的無鮭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元那則算台幣也都是300多元那這個價格其實是跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合\n那既然價格更高關稅的徵集損失應該更大為什麼補助卻是最少呢是不是有點不大合理呢我剛才已經說了齁相關的外交獎勵我們會去滾動檢討但是我還但是我現在就請教部長假設是算錯了假設是拿錯數據了是不是要盡快的我現在就問你假設是\n算錯或是拿錯數據了我相信不會有算錯這件事情那你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元然後吳郭魚5元你的依據是什麼來 主長你的依據是什麼\n我代表農業部我來講你講 依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種 根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你 第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧\n吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討\n那你就說嘛 文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據 你講出來你講出來你能說服我 我也覺得OK但是你現在提的 沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那 下一個\n所以呢 你要滾動式檢討 我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快 不是說 現在大家都傻住了傻住說 我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片 比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助 人家補助10元 19元 你補助他5元\n我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命 打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次\n您到雲林來 跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談 您記得嗎\n我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社\n所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢\n我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主\n你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有 那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段\n漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範\n我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對 我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是 這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範\n要有一定的規範 這樣大家有理有據 可以來執行 可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做 你也要來申請 這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說 欸 部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去 他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有 包括\n這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長\n次長 針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話\n跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了\n國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎\n跟文報告 其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛 你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎 我覺得這是整個\n國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論\n尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎\n其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下\n其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果\n發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP 0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業\n也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.645 --> 00:13.574\n主席好主席我想请这个陈部长您也不陈部长我也好\n\n00:20.999 --> 00:44.513\n部長早那我看到針對這次農業部因應美國關稅所提出的這個措施有不同的這個品項的補助金額落差相當的大那目前公告的標準如與每公斤是補助10元然後鬼頭刀是19元但是無關於只有5元請問這樣子的金額差異是依據什麼樣子的\n\n00:49.556 --> 01:17.706\n這個資料來訂定的我想第一個跟委員說明就是我們在外銷獎勵的時候的一個補助的一個每公斤的價位會跟他的產品本身的價值還有他關稅現在目前的關稅的一個比例那我們現在目前估的都是以10%的關稅因為現在未來的關稅不確定性那10%的關稅也不一定是全部是我們國內自己付的他會跟\n\n01:18.506 --> 01:33.467\n對方去做拆帳然後還有非常多的因素在那邊去調整所以以吳國瑜來講如果每公斤五塊以泉魚來講其實他已經超過了二分之一但是以魚片來講他是比二分之一還低啦\n\n01:34.828 --> 01:52.374\n這就是本席想要跟您討論的因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部他們給我的訊息就是這樣子就是補助的比例可能是吳國瑜如果是全瑜是已經占了二分之一等等但是\n\n01:54.595 --> 02:00.080\n本席仔細看了一下這整個資料我發現假設用這樣子的推論的話鱸魚鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是無過於出口價格的二至四倍才對啊但事實上完全不是這樣啊\n\n02:13.028 --> 02:28.659\n我跟委員說明喔外銷獎勵它只是一個獎勵性質它不是一個實質補貼它的關稅的一個成本這個第一個觀念要說明的我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下好不好就是依據中華民國養殖漁業協會三月的統計\n\n02:33.162 --> 02:45.033\n這個出口資料顯示吳國瑜的切片每公斤是363.8元然後冷凍吳國瑜整條的話每公斤是85.2元那鱸魚每公斤\n\n02:49.637 --> 03:05.307\n鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元鱸魚的這個調動呢是128.3元那這樣就不合理啦所以本席強烈懷疑喔你們當初在算無鮭魚的時候是用這個無鮭魚的條\n\n03:08.249 --> 03:26.347\n動去算而不是用無辜魚的魚片去算所以這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下呢我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我們所有的未來獎勵我們會來做一個滾動監討這第一個第二個部分就是\n\n03:26.967 --> 03:32.269\n我還是再次說明我們在為他獎勵是一個獎勵性質不是一個你獎勵性質但你不能懲罰怎麼會鬼頭刀19元然後這個吳國瑜5元這不是獎勵耶這等於是懲罰養吳國瑜的嘛我懲罰就是我收我收到的錢才被懲罰我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢我的意思是說你如果要去訂這個獎勵的\n\n03:52.454 --> 03:57.956\n這個金額你是不是要有一點依據嘛我現在這裡也有這個業者提供的出口報價單出口美國的無鮭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元那則算台幣也都是300多元那這個價格其實是跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合\n\n04:14.420 --> 04:28.910\n那既然價格更高關稅的徵集損失應該更大為什麼補助卻是最少呢是不是有點不大合理呢我剛才已經說了齁相關的外交獎勵我們會去滾動檢討但是我還但是我現在就請教部長假設是算錯了假設是拿錯數據了是不是要盡快的我現在就問你假設是\n\n04:38.197 --> 04:44.881\n算錯或是拿錯數據了我相信不會有算錯這件事情那你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元然後吳郭魚5元你的依據是什麼來主長你的依據是什麼\n\n04:51.899 --> 05:16.493\n我代表農業部我來講你講依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧\n\n05:19.920 --> 05:30.988\n吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討\n\n05:43.737 --> 05:46.120\n那你就說嘛文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據你講出來你講出來你能說服我我也覺得OK但是你現在提的沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那下一個\n\n06:00.629 --> 06:11.555\n所以呢你要滾動式檢討我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快不是說現在大家都傻住了傻住說我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助人家補助10元19元你補助他5元\n\n06:20.100 --> 06:23.723\n我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次\n\n06:45.652 --> 06:49.656\n您到雲林來跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談您記得嗎\n\n06:52.551 --> 07:06.856\n我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社\n\n07:22.242 --> 07:27.667\n所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢\n\n07:41.955 --> 07:55.154\n我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主\n\n07:56.721 --> 08:05.767\n你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段\n\n08:22.658 --> 08:36.358\n漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範\n\n08:38.621 --> 08:52.434\n我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範\n\n08:56.397 --> 09:10.948\n要有一定的規範這樣大家有理有據可以來執行可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做你也要來申請這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說欸部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有包括\n\n09:21.095 --> 09:45.117\n這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長\n\n09:50.342 --> 10:10.609\n次長針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話\n\n10:15.770 --> 10:35.246\n跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了\n\n10:35.706 --> 10:41.751\n國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎\n\n11:03.739 --> 11:18.421\n跟文報告其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎我覺得這是整個\n\n11:19.102 --> 11:36.832\n國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論\n\n11:42.995 --> 12:07.010\n尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎\n\n12:11.172 --> 12:16.095\n其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下\n\n12:30.865 --> 12:46.361\n其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果\n\n12:48.623 --> 12:55.786\n發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業\n\n13:13.334 --> 13:18.071\n也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.645,"end":13.574,"text":"主席好主席我想请这个陈部长您也不陈部长我也好"},{"start":20.999,"end":44.513,"text":"部長早那我看到針對這次農業部因應美國關稅所提出的這個措施有不同的這個品項的補助金額落差相當的大那目前公告的標準如與每公斤是補助10元然後鬼頭刀是19元但是無關於只有5元請問這樣子的金額差異是依據什麼樣子的"},{"start":49.556,"end":77.706,"text":"這個資料來訂定的我想第一個跟委員說明就是我們在外銷獎勵的時候的一個補助的一個每公斤的價位會跟他的產品本身的價值還有他關稅現在目前的關稅的一個比例那我們現在目前估的都是以10%的關稅因為現在未來的關稅不確定性那10%的關稅也不一定是全部是我們國內自己付的他會跟"},{"start":78.506,"end":93.467,"text":"對方去做拆帳然後還有非常多的因素在那邊去調整所以以吳國瑜來講如果每公斤五塊以泉魚來講其實他已經超過了二分之一但是以魚片來講他是比二分之一還低啦"},{"start":94.828,"end":112.374,"text":"這就是本席想要跟您討論的因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部他們給我的訊息就是這樣子就是補助的比例可能是吳國瑜如果是全瑜是已經占了二分之一等等但是"},{"start":114.595,"end":120.08,"text":"本席仔細看了一下這整個資料我發現假設用這樣子的推論的話鱸魚鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是無過於出口價格的二至四倍才對啊但事實上完全不是這樣啊"},{"start":133.028,"end":148.659,"text":"我跟委員說明喔外銷獎勵它只是一個獎勵性質它不是一個實質補貼它的關稅的一個成本這個第一個觀念要說明的我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下好不好就是依據中華民國養殖漁業協會三月的統計"},{"start":153.162,"end":165.033,"text":"這個出口資料顯示吳國瑜的切片每公斤是363.8元然後冷凍吳國瑜整條的話每公斤是85.2元那鱸魚每公斤"},{"start":169.637,"end":185.307,"text":"鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元鱸魚的這個調動呢是128.3元那這樣就不合理啦所以本席強烈懷疑喔你們當初在算無鮭魚的時候是用這個無鮭魚的條"},{"start":188.249,"end":206.347,"text":"動去算而不是用無辜魚的魚片去算所以這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下呢我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我們所有的未來獎勵我們會來做一個滾動監討這第一個第二個部分就是"},{"start":206.967,"end":212.269,"text":"我還是再次說明我們在為他獎勵是一個獎勵性質不是一個你獎勵性質但你不能懲罰怎麼會鬼頭刀19元然後這個吳國瑜5元這不是獎勵耶這等於是懲罰養吳國瑜的嘛我懲罰就是我收我收到的錢才被懲罰我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢我的意思是說你如果要去訂這個獎勵的"},{"start":232.454,"end":237.956,"text":"這個金額你是不是要有一點依據嘛我現在這裡也有這個業者提供的出口報價單出口美國的無鮭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元那則算台幣也都是300多元那這個價格其實是跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合"},{"start":254.42,"end":268.91,"text":"那既然價格更高關稅的徵集損失應該更大為什麼補助卻是最少呢是不是有點不大合理呢我剛才已經說了齁相關的外交獎勵我們會去滾動檢討但是我還但是我現在就請教部長假設是算錯了假設是拿錯數據了是不是要盡快的我現在就問你假設是"},{"start":278.197,"end":284.881,"text":"算錯或是拿錯數據了我相信不會有算錯這件事情那你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元然後吳郭魚5元你的依據是什麼來 主長你的依據是什麼"},{"start":291.899,"end":316.493,"text":"我代表農業部我來講你講 依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種 根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你 第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧"},{"start":319.92,"end":330.988,"text":"吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討"},{"start":343.737,"end":346.12,"text":"那你就說嘛 文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據 你講出來你講出來你能說服我 我也覺得OK但是你現在提的 沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那 下一個"},{"start":360.629,"end":371.555,"text":"所以呢 你要滾動式檢討 我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快 不是說 現在大家都傻住了傻住說 我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片 比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助 人家補助10元 19元 你補助他5元"},{"start":380.1,"end":383.723,"text":"我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命 打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次"},{"start":405.652,"end":409.656,"text":"您到雲林來 跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談 您記得嗎"},{"start":412.551,"end":426.856,"text":"我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社"},{"start":442.242,"end":447.667,"text":"所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢"},{"start":461.955,"end":475.154,"text":"我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主"},{"start":476.721,"end":485.767,"text":"你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有 那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段"},{"start":502.658,"end":516.358,"text":"漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範"},{"start":518.621,"end":532.434,"text":"我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對 我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是 這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範"},{"start":536.397,"end":550.948,"text":"要有一定的規範 這樣大家有理有據 可以來執行 可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做 你也要來申請 這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說 欸 部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去 他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有 包括"},{"start":561.095,"end":585.117,"text":"這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長"},{"start":590.342,"end":610.609,"text":"次長 針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話"},{"start":615.77,"end":635.246,"text":"跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了"},{"start":635.706,"end":641.751,"text":"國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":663.739,"end":678.421,"text":"跟文報告 其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛 你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎 我覺得這是整個"},{"start":679.102,"end":696.832,"text":"國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論"},{"start":702.995,"end":727.01,"text":"尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎"},{"start":731.172,"end":736.095,"text":"其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下"},{"start":750.865,"end":766.361,"text":"其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果"},{"start":768.623,"end":775.786,"text":"發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP 0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業"},{"start":793.334,"end":798.071,"text":"也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時38分）主席好。主席，我想請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早。我看到農業部這一次因應美國關稅所提出的措施，不同品項的補助金額落差相當大，目前公告的標準，鱸魚每公斤是補助10元，鬼頭刀是19元，但是吳郭魚只有5元，請問這樣的金額差異是依據什麼資料來訂定的？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員說明，我們外銷獎勵的補助，每公斤的價位會跟產品本身的價值還有目前關稅的比率，我們目前估的都是10%的關稅，因為未來的關稅是不確定性，而10%的關稅也不一定全部是我們國內自己付，它會跟對方去拆帳……"],["張委員嘉郡：可能拆帳會不……"],["陳部長駿季：然後還有非常多的因素在調整，所以以吳郭魚來講，如果全魚是每公斤5塊，其實是已經超過二分之一，但是以魚片來講，是比二分之一還低，所以我們是用……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要跟您討論的，因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部，他們給我的訊息就是這樣的補助比率，以吳郭魚為例，如果是全魚就已經占了二分之一等等，但是本席仔細看了一下這整個資料，發現假設用這樣來推論的話，鱸魚、鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是吳郭魚出口價格的2至4倍才對，但事實上完全不是這樣啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，外銷獎勵只是獎勵性質，不是實質補貼它的關稅成本，這是第一個觀念要說明的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下，依據中華民國養殖漁業協會3月的出口統計資料顯示，吳郭魚切片每公斤是363.8元，冷凍吳郭魚整條每公斤是85.2元，鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元，鱸魚的條凍是128.3元，這樣就不合理啦！所以本席強烈懷疑，你們當初在算吳郭魚的時候是用吳郭魚的條凍去算，而不是用吳郭魚的魚片去算，這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在，是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我們所有的外銷獎勵會做滾動檢討，這第一個。第二個，我還是再次說明，我們的外銷獎勵是一個獎勵性質，而不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：是獎勵性質，但你不能懲罰啊！怎麼會鬼頭刀19元，然後吳郭魚5元，這不是獎勵……"],["陳部長駿季：只要是獎勵的就不是懲罰。"],["張委員嘉郡：這不是獎勵耶，這等於是懲罰養吳郭魚的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：懲罰是我收他的錢才叫懲罰，我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢？"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是說，如果要訂獎勵金額，是不是要有一點依據？我這裡也有業者提供的出口報價單，出口美國的吳郭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元，折算臺幣也都是三百多元，這個價格其實跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合，既然價格更高，關稅的衝擊損失應該更大，為什麼補助卻是最少呢？是不是有點不大合理呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才已經說了，相關的外銷獎勵，我們會滾動檢討，但是我……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是我現在就請教部長……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：假設是算錯了、假設是拿錯數據了，是不是要儘快地……我現在就問你，假設是算錯或是拿錯數據，你是不是……"],["陳部長駿季：我相信不會有算錯這件事情，因為委員你……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元，然後吳郭魚5元？"],["陳部長駿季：委員你講的是說一個產品本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的依據是什麼？署長，你的依據是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我代表農業部，我來講。"],["張委員嘉郡：你講，依據是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：所有的外銷獎勵，我們會根據魚種、根據它的外銷量，有非常多複雜因素去算的，而不是用單純的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那你在這裡跟我解釋一下嘛！你的因素是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，第一個，吳郭魚整體的外銷量跟鬼頭刀的外銷量，它在美國占的比率也要計算……"],["張委員嘉郡：那鬼頭刀的美國占比是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：鬼頭刀的美國占比是70%。"],["張委員嘉郡：然後咧？"],["陳部長駿季：吳郭魚是79%，然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳郭魚的單價還有外銷形式、外銷數量……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就把單價給你看啊！他們是70跟79，有差那麼多嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員講……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就告訴你，如果有算錯，你要認、你要好好地調整、你要滾動式地調整，我今天是提醒你，我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討，但是委員不能用一部分的那個……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你就說嘛！滾動檢討是怎麼檢討？如果你把真的依據講出來，能說服我我也覺得OK，但是你現在提的沒有一項能夠說服我嘛！你說要滾動式檢討，我是贊成的，但也許要趕快，而不是像現在大家都傻住了，因為吳郭魚的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片、鱸魚的魚片貴，結果你給他的補助，人家是10元、19元，你只補助他5元，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不能用這樣算法……"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須要講政府的補助很重要，對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣，但強心針不能亂打，打對的是救命，打錯了反而出事，所以我希望農業部不要輕忽這個訊號，務必要儘快地修正。另外，針對補助對象的問題，上一次您到雲林來跟我們所有漁業業者進行座談，您記得嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我當然記得。"],["張委員嘉郡：那個時候就有漁民跟你反映，補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍。現場部長就直接答應合作社會納入補助範圍，但是在公告內容當中，你可以自己看你的公告內容，你的公告內容對象僅限於雲、嘉、南、高、屏、宜、東地區的漁會，排除合作社，我很難理解當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實？為什麼漁業署沒有落實部長的指示？這個是當場喔！當時有這麼多人在現場，這是部長親自指示的，是哪一個環節出了問題呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們對於合作社的協助，包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外銷獎勵都會有，除了冷鏈設施的補助，現階段是以漁會為主……"],["張委員嘉郡：你在現場怎麼不這樣講？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，那是細節，但是以我們公告……"],["張委員嘉郡：當時全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在是要告訴我你在現場講錯了，冷鏈沒有在裡面？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有講錯，在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業支持，但是我也跟委員講，我們會再考慮合作社的冷鏈是不是可以協助，我們第一階段是用漁會，然後第二階段漁會……"],["張委員嘉郡：漁會很好、很認真、很照顧漁民，我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的，但是合作社呢？"],["陳部長駿季：對！合作社的部分，我們也會考慮，但是合作社一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契作、合作的，有一些沒有，所以委員，我們會有規範……"],["張委員嘉郡：當然啊！你如果有一些規劃、有一些規範、有一些規定，這都合理，但是你不能完全把它排除在外。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會先跟漁業署講，針對合作社的冷鏈設施不是一律都不行，一定是要有嚴謹的規範，包括它跟前端的漁民有合作。"],["張委員嘉郡：是！這個我完全贊成、完全認同，你要有嚴格的規範、要有一定的規範，這樣大家有理有據，可以來執行、可以來落實，不要說你完全沒在做，也要來申請，這是不合理的。請部長跟署長要儘快，因為這些合作社也質疑，當天部長來講得好好的，怎麼回去後漁業署也不理部長，冷鏈設備也沒有包括他們。這會令業者產生懷疑，所有漁業的漁民都會懷疑為什麼部長說話不算話？"],["陳部長駿季：不會！我們持續跟漁民溝通，他們應該了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然這一點，我也希望部長儘快地了解，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：沒問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我還要再問經濟部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：何次長。"],["張委員嘉郡：次長，針對美國關稅的風波，行政院本來提出要挹注880億給企業應急，不過行政院後來又宣布這一次的特別條例要調漲為4,100億，可以請次長說明一下，這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎？還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的擘劃？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其中930億的部分是用在支持產業，還有勞工安定就業的部分及農業發展的部分，其他的部分，我想都是分別在各個部會裡面……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，其他的部分我幫你講好了，國土安全韌性1,500億，包括興建巡防艦艇等；照顧民生1,670億，其中撥補台電1,000億，然後老屋修繕50億，實際上產業界可以受惠的部分，只有占全部的23%左右。請問次長，這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義，卻撥出不到四分之一給產業，您認為這樣合理嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超徵的部分，除了面對美國關稅問題以外……"],["張委員嘉郡：我就問你合不合理？身為經濟部次長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我覺得這是整個國家的政策，我們是要強化國家的產業韌性、社會韌性跟國防韌性。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，你就只有撥23%，怎麼增加產業韌性？行政院提的方案，在挹注產業的部分，我們一定大力支持，但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議，而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論，尤其這些包山包海的項目，全部都由經濟部來主管，經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙、角色錯置嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，條例裡有寫到一個條文，相關的預算編列還是要回到各個部會，相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會，所以我想利用這四個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以就是用你來包裝而已啊！你這樣一講，不就是用你來包裝嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：其實特別條例是為了要因應整個經濟、社會跟國土安全韌性的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，這樣的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎？我在這裡補充一點給今天所有列席的各部會聽一下。日本在面對美國關稅衝擊、國內物價高漲壓力的時候，自民黨跟公明黨所組成的執政聯盟也提出普發現金政策，一個人5萬日幣，試算下來，可以抬高日本GDP 0.25%，證明普發現金不是特例，而是在面對經濟壓力時，很多國家都會採取的可行政策，因此本席在這裡呼籲，不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金，讓這個預算不只是救產業，也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。","主席順便作以下宣告：陳亭妃委員質詢完，休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王正旭","陳玉珍","邱鎮軍","顏寬恒","翁曉玲","蘇清泉","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、\n本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委\n員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院\n委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144901_00002"}}}