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{\"word\": \"探\", \"start\": 701.458, \"end\": 701.638, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 701.638, \"end\": 701.778, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 701.778, \"end\": 702.179, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 702.179, \"end\": 702.339, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.339, \"end\": 702.359, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}]}, {\"start\": 706.806, \"end\": 727.583, \"text\": \"我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 706.806, \"end\": 706.926, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 706.926, \"end\": 707.066, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 707.066, \"end\": 707.206, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 707.206, \"end\": 707.366, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 707.366, \"end\": 707.487, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"肯\", \"start\": 721.958, \"end\": 722.238, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 722.238, \"end\": 722.479, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 722.479, \"end\": 722.679, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 722.679, \"end\": 723.219, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 723.219, \"end\": 723.479, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 723.479, \"end\": 724.0, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 724.0, \"end\": 724.22, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 724.22, \"end\": 724.38, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 724.38, \"end\": 724.72, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 724.72, \"end\": 724.921, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 724.921, \"end\": 725.401, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 725.401, \"end\": 725.641, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 725.641, \"end\": 726.162, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 726.162, \"end\": 727.122, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 727.122, \"end\": 727.222, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 727.222, \"end\": 727.423, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 727.423, \"end\": 727.563, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 727.563, \"end\": 727.583, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 733.769, \"end\": 746.52, \"text\": \"因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 733.769, \"end\": 734.93, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 734.93, \"end\": 735.07, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 735.07, \"end\": 735.731, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 735.731, \"end\": 736.071, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 736.071, \"end\": 736.211, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 736.211, \"end\": 736.792, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 736.792, \"end\": 739.894, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 739.894, \"end\": 740.074, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 740.074, \"end\": 740.235, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 740.235, \"end\": 740.395, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 740.395, \"end\": 740.555, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 740.555, \"end\": 741.155, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 741.155, \"end\": 741.376, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 741.376, \"end\": 741.516, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 741.516, \"end\": 742.136, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 742.136, \"end\": 742.977, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 742.977, \"end\": 743.357, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 743.357, \"end\": 743.517, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 743.517, \"end\": 744.138, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 744.138, \"end\": 744.738, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 744.738, \"end\": 744.979, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 744.979, \"end\": 745.139, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 745.139, \"end\": 745.419, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 745.419, \"end\": 745.579, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 745.579, \"end\": 745.799, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 745.799, \"end\": 746.24, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 746.24, \"end\": 746.5, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 746.5, \"end\": 746.52, \"score\": 0.996}]}, {\"start\": 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770.075, \"end\": 770.095, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"肯\", \"start\": 770.095, \"end\": 770.195, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 770.195, \"end\": 770.255, \"score\": 0.294}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 770.255, \"end\": 770.275, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 770.275, \"end\": 770.375, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 770.375, \"end\": 770.415, \"score\": 0.449}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 770.415, \"end\": 770.615, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 770.615, \"end\": 770.835, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 770.835, \"end\": 770.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"講\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:00,109\n請部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,735 --> 00:00:31,466\n林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心\n\n3\n00:00:33,968 --> 00:00:51,910\n就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績\n\n4\n00:00:53,451 --> 00:01:16,084\n做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有沒錯\n\n5\n00:01:20,585 --> 00:01:32,698\nAnyway就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測\n\n6\n00:01:37,083 --> 00:01:41,686\n然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個\n\n7\n00:01:57,901 --> 00:02:13,521\n土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署署長又不能夠來\n\n8\n00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:37,665\n署長你講這個笑死人了你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變然後你的法規要改要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎你說我繼續研議\n\n9\n00:02:39,065 --> 00:02:55,862\n口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導\n\n10\n00:02:59,475 --> 00:03:11,259\n報告委員這邊喔環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過\n\n11\n00:03:15,581 --> 00:03:34,652\n食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼\n\n12\n00:03:37,230 --> 00:03:45,559\n你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔\n\n13\n00:03:53,171 --> 00:03:58,654\n你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府這什麼食藥署署長你的專業你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規不做任何的改革你的專業不好不好署長你的專業是要來服務人民\n\n14\n00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:40,798\n現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導\n\n15\n00:04:43,240 --> 00:05:12,412\n宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡\n\n16\n00:05:15,061 --> 00:05:21,463\n毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用\n\n17\n00:05:44,433 --> 00:06:05,107\n謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下\n\n18\n00:06:07,917 --> 00:06:27,390\n這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦\n\n19\n00:06:29,484 --> 00:06:44,483\n環境污染間接進入身體食品包材包裝直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員我至少我本人也質詢過\n\n20\n00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:53,202\n沒好啊質詢過又如何沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好謝謝署長請回我現在要再問再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三\n\n21\n00:07:11,576 --> 00:07:24,714\n部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會\n\n22\n00:07:26,945 --> 00:07:47,906\n因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的\n\n23\n00:07:50,816 --> 00:08:07,067\n你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予\n\n24\n00:08:20,583 --> 00:08:40,509\n新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟\n\n25\n00:08:42,761 --> 00:08:47,864\n納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠\n\n26\n00:09:09,978 --> 00:09:23,606\n他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的\n\n27\n00:09:33,868 --> 00:10:03,055\n而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平\n\n28\n00:10:04,531 --> 00:10:19,483\n現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸\n\n29\n00:10:22,037 --> 00:10:45,692\n這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過\n\n30\n00:10:50,174 --> 00:11:11,817\n修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項\n\n31\n00:11:13,778 --> 00:11:29,568\n後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了\n\n32\n00:11:32,028 --> 00:11:42,359\n所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間\n\n33\n00:11:46,806 --> 00:12:07,583\n我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好謝謝委員謝謝這樣子幾分了\n\n34\n00:12:13,769 --> 00:12:26,520\n因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了\n\n35\n00:12:32,381 --> 00:12:50,855\n因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好謝謝委員謝謝肯定本部長但是記者會要講\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t109\t請部長\n18735\t31466\t林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心\n33968\t51910\t就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績\n53451\t76084\t做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變 是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯\n80585\t92698\tAnyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測\n97083\t101686\t然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個\n117901\t133521\t土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢 我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署 食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署 署長又不能夠來\n137159\t157665\t署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變 然後你的法規要改 要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說 欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎 你說我繼續研議\n159065\t175862\t口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導\n179475\t191259\t報告委員 這邊喔 環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過\n195581\t214652\t食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼\n217230\t225559\t你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔\n233171\t238654\t你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民\n255396\t280798\t現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導\n283240\t312412\t宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡\n315061\t321463\t毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用\n344433\t365107\t謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下\n367917\t387390\t這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦\n389484\t404483\t環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過\n406636\t413202\t沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三\n431576\t444714\t部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會\n446945\t467906\t因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的\n470816\t487067\t你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予\n500583\t520509\t新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟\n522761\t527864\t納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠\n549978\t563606\t他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的\n573868\t603055\t而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平\n604531\t619483\t現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸\n622037\t645692\t這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過\n650174\t671817\t修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項\n673778\t689568\t後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了\n692028\t702359\t所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間\n706806\t727583\t我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了\n733769\t746520\t因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了\n752381\t770855\t因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好 謝謝委員 謝謝肯定本部長但是記者會要講\n","txt":"請部長\n林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心\n就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績\n做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變 是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯\nAnyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測\n然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個\n土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢 我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署 食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署 署長又不能夠來\n署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變 然後你的法規要改 要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說 欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎 你說我繼續研議\n口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導\n報告委員 這邊喔 環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過\n食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼\n你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔\n你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民\n現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導\n宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡\n毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用\n謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下\n這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦\n環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過\n沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三\n部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會\n因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的\n你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予\n新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟\n納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠\n他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的\n而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平\n現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸\n這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過\n修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項\n後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了\n所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間\n我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了\n因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了\n因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好 謝謝委員 謝謝肯定本部長但是記者會要講\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.109\n請部長\n\n00:18.735 --> 00:31.466\n林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心\n\n00:33.968 --> 00:51.910\n就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績\n\n00:53.451 --> 01:16.084\n做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有沒錯\n\n01:20.585 --> 01:32.698\nAnyway就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測\n\n01:37.083 --> 01:41.686\n然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個\n\n01:57.901 --> 02:13.521\n土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署署長又不能夠來\n\n02:17.159 --> 02:37.665\n署長你講這個笑死人了你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變然後你的法規要改要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎你說我繼續研議\n\n02:39.065 --> 02:55.862\n口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導\n\n02:59.475 --> 03:11.259\n報告委員這邊喔環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過\n\n03:15.581 --> 03:34.652\n食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼\n\n03:37.230 --> 03:45.559\n你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔\n\n03:53.171 --> 03:58.654\n你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府這什麼食藥署署長你的專業你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規不做任何的改革你的專業不好不好署長你的專業是要來服務人民\n\n04:15.396 --> 04:40.798\n現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導\n\n04:43.240 --> 05:12.412\n宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡\n\n05:15.061 --> 05:21.463\n毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用\n\n05:44.433 --> 06:05.107\n謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下\n\n06:07.917 --> 06:27.390\n這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦\n\n06:29.484 --> 06:44.483\n環境污染間接進入身體食品包材包裝直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員我至少我本人也質詢過\n\n06:46.636 --> 06:53.202\n沒好啊質詢過又如何沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好謝謝署長請回我現在要再問再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三\n\n07:11.576 --> 07:24.714\n部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會\n\n07:26.945 --> 07:47.906\n因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的\n\n07:50.816 --> 08:07.067\n你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予\n\n08:20.583 --> 08:40.509\n新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟\n\n08:42.761 --> 08:47.864\n納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠\n\n09:09.978 --> 09:23.606\n他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的\n\n09:33.868 --> 10:03.055\n而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平\n\n10:04.531 --> 10:19.483\n現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸\n\n10:22.037 --> 10:45.692\n這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過\n\n10:50.174 --> 11:11.817\n修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項\n\n11:13.778 --> 11:29.568\n後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了\n\n11:32.028 --> 11:42.359\n所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間\n\n11:46.806 --> 12:07.583\n我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好謝謝委員謝謝這樣子幾分了\n\n12:13.769 --> 12:26.520\n因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了\n\n12:32.381 --> 12:50.855\n因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好謝謝委員謝謝肯定本部長但是記者會要講\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.109,"text":"請部長"},{"start":18.735,"end":31.466,"text":"林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心"},{"start":33.968,"end":51.91,"text":"就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績"},{"start":53.451,"end":76.084,"text":"做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變 是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯"},{"start":80.585,"end":92.698,"text":"Anyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測"},{"start":97.083,"end":101.686,"text":"然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個"},{"start":117.901,"end":133.521,"text":"土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢 我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署 食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署 署長又不能夠來"},{"start":137.159,"end":157.665,"text":"署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變 然後你的法規要改 要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說 欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎 你說我繼續研議"},{"start":159.065,"end":175.862,"text":"口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導"},{"start":179.475,"end":191.259,"text":"報告委員 這邊喔 環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過"},{"start":195.581,"end":214.652,"text":"食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼"},{"start":217.23,"end":225.559,"text":"你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔"},{"start":233.171,"end":238.654,"text":"你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民"},{"start":255.396,"end":280.798,"text":"現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導"},{"start":283.24,"end":312.412,"text":"宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡"},{"start":315.061,"end":321.463,"text":"毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用"},{"start":344.433,"end":365.107,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下"},{"start":367.917,"end":387.39,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦"},{"start":389.484,"end":404.483,"text":"環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過"},{"start":406.636,"end":413.202,"text":"沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三"},{"start":431.576,"end":444.714,"text":"部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會"},{"start":446.945,"end":467.906,"text":"因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的"},{"start":470.816,"end":487.067,"text":"你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予"},{"start":500.583,"end":520.509,"text":"新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟"},{"start":522.761,"end":527.864,"text":"納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠"},{"start":549.978,"end":563.606,"text":"他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的"},{"start":573.868,"end":603.055,"text":"而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平"},{"start":604.531,"end":619.483,"text":"現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸"},{"start":622.037,"end":645.692,"text":"這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過"},{"start":650.174,"end":671.817,"text":"修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項"},{"start":673.778,"end":689.568,"text":"後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了"},{"start":692.028,"end":702.359,"text":"所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間"},{"start":706.806,"end":727.583,"text":"我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了"},{"start":733.769,"end":746.52,"text":"因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了"},{"start":752.381,"end":770.855,"text":"因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好 謝謝委員 謝謝肯定本部長但是記者會要講"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":832,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時5分）謝謝召委。請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你今天的PFAS管理行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙管理計畫，大概我都問過了、我也要求了，你今天應該是很開心，就我個人所質詢過的，我也要來肯定你。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：今天等於是做球給你。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢、不敢，因為我記得5月21號委員質詢我花了半個小時，之後我就很努力地跟同仁在談，我們也努力想辦法做出一些成績。"],["林委員淑芬：做出成績最重要，我們質詢的目的不是為了上報、列為紀錄，質詢的目的是為了改變。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變，譬如你們於今年5月13號公告修正列管毒性化學物質及其運作管理事項，擴大列管更多項目進去。在飲用水上面，你們也訂出水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法，在排放水的時候要監測；在廢水的部分有監測；在飲用水就一些本來納管的，再做更多的監測；在環境監測上面，你們去年年底就已經完成國內15條河流底泥和魚體的採樣分析，並完成淨水廠的檢測，掌握土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度趨勢，這都是我當初要求的。","我的意思是說，我們要的就是具體的改變在那裡，不要像食藥署，食藥署署長本人今天又來了，笑死人了，署長，你聽聽看，你自己聽得下去嗎？人家質詢完是要你做改變，你的法規要改、要納管，今天有委員質詢說：你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎？你說：我繼續研議。口頭上你這樣講，而你的書面報告說什麼？「對環境部公告禁用之百項PFAS物質，本部會宣導食品包裝容器具業者不得使用」，宣導？"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。報告委員，環境部公告的508項不能用，其實就是禁止使用，我們再按照食安法，使用的話會按照裁罰……"],["林委員淑芬：你的部分，我也質詢過了；就衛福部，我們也質詢過。食品包裝、包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡？PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡？在食品監測計畫裡面，食品受到這些污染，或因為包裝、包材受到污染，你的監測計畫是什麼？你不可以說PFAS是你的專業，會全力以赴，然後你到立法院來，我質詢過了，你們業務單位都知道，你到立法院來說：我們會宣導。你到這裡來只有一種宣導功能喔？你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導，你是跟人家做什麼政府、做什麼食藥署署長，你的專業又如何？當你的專業不能成為政策、不能成為法規、不做任何的改革，你的專業沒用，署長，你的專業是要來服務人民，現在是在這裡……"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員指導，我們就……"],["林委員淑芬：我同樣地質詢過兩個部門，質詢完之後環境部部長就他們該改的法規、該納管的物質、該訂的期程、該做的監測，人家在報告裡面寫幾年幾月幾日做了什麼、改了什麼法規，反觀今天食藥署的書面報告，只說了一句「本部會繼續宣導」，其他講的都是廢話，這是立委也會講的廢話，這個叫政府喔！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，我們的508項，因為昨天環境部特別有公告357項，所有的508項在食物包材的部分，我們全面禁止使用，如果使用就是違反食安法第十六條我們會予以裁罰。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你食品包材禁止使用的公告在哪裡？毒性化學物質以外的，現在已經在使用的會怎麼樣？你有去抽測、有去監測，那些業者都知道嗎？有抽測過便當盒，看他們是不是還在用，你知道嗎？每天買早餐的炸薯條、炸薯餅，當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講，連大的麥當勞、連其他的通通都不標準，都還繼續在用，你說禁用，但他們還繼續在用耶！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提醒，其實今年度我們特別也針對食品跟食品器材包裝容器的部分，做了PFAS的相關調查，我們也會一併調查攝食風險評估，儘速的把這項業務完成。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你，什麼時候告訴我們？食藥署公告禁止使用，公告在哪裡？把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規，你念給我聽一下。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，我們會帶回去積極地研議，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：還在研議？"],["姜署長至剛：一定會積極辦理。"],["林委員淑芬：研議！你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦！在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說，然後有公告禁止使用的，有沒有用？不知道啦！環境污染間接進入身體，食品包材、包裝直接吃下肚，哪個比較嚴重？當然是衛福部、當然是食藥署，管理的是重中之重，而委員、我至少我本人也質詢過，沒有用啊！質詢過又如何？沒有效！所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門，我是拿環境部來給你看，人家的書面報告是怎麼寫，你的書面報告是怎麼寫，一看就知道不當一回事，好，謝謝，署長請回。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要再問部長另外一個問題，核一、核二、核三，部長，你今天有接受採訪，核一、核二、核三昨天修法了，要重啟、可以重啟，重啟要不要做環評？我再給你一個回答的機會。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準第二十九條第一項，所以目前法規來說，如果是興建、添加機組工程或其核子反應器設施的除役要環評，但是目前的規定，既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延，其實是不需要的。"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道既有執照到期換發或展延，這個在最高行政法院判決過，這個當然是需要，這個不是舊權利的延伸，因為它這一張執照就是40年，40年以後你還要再繼續給它，這個叫新權利的賦予，新權利的賦予當然要重啟環評，更何況它過去40年一次都沒有做過。所以你現在應該要做什麼，知道嗎？如果是根據最高行政法院的判決，你應該要把重啟納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準，為什麼當初沒有做？因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿老舊不堪的核電廠，還來開玩笑說可以重啟，大家做夢都沒想過，你知道國際在評估一個核電廠，他用的風險評估是U型理論，它最容易發生核災就是在U的剛開始，還有使用期限後半段的最後，運轉的中間是最穩定的，所以不管三哩島、福島、車諾比核電廠事故，就是這個理論，最危險的部份，而今天不是什麼抽換零件更新、不是保養就可以解決，很多是沒有辦法再更新的，而他們要開玩笑也沒關係，他們要拿核災來開玩笑，但你不可以在這裡隨便說不用環評，憑什麼不用環評？它的執照40年，它的權利已經到期了，40年沒有做過任何環評，現在大家都以為要除役，他說要重啟，關於重啟，我現在再跟你溝通一個概念，再講一遍，這個是新權利的賦予，絕對不是舊權利的延伸！這樣你聽得懂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：聽得懂。委員，其實……"],["林委員淑芬：在法理上是這樣子。"],["彭部長啓明：其實過去這一年，我也跟同仁探討過這個問題，我的確也覺得滿奇怪的，因為以前沒有環評，如果重啟，按照現有環評法規，竟然不用環評？所以委員，這個部分，我回去之後再跟同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友……"],["林委員淑芬：這個爭執，在我們修礦業法的時候就談過。修礦業法的時候有說，我國家特許權給你20年，20年後重新審核，這到底是舊權利直接延伸繼續核定，只能允許、只能繼續延長，還是說這是一個新權利的賦予？我可以准駁，通通都可以，不是只有准許一個選項，後來就是明定在新修的礦業法裡面，這在法理上的論辯已經很久，絕對不是第一次，所以我才告訴你最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫。你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的、免環評的，我要告訴你，這是胡說八道。好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，給我一點時間，我會探討研究。"],["林委員淑芬：我希望你今天的採訪，回去應該要再想一下，是不是應該重新再思考一下，絕對不是舊權利的延伸，因為是新權利的賦予，所以一切都要重跑一遍，如果要重啟的話，一定、肯定是要環評的！沒有不用環評的。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣子發言幾分鐘了？因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始，他說我時間超過，我下一次再來好了。剛才那兩個問題很重要，雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標，今天的題目我已經都講過、問過，部長做了一些改進，也做了一些改革，所以我就提一下；但是環評的事情，老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：肯定彭部長，但是記者會講話要小心一點；然後FDA更要小心，你要注意一點。","接下來請王正旭王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}}