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\"end\": 768.545, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 768.545, \"end\": 768.565, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 768.565, \"end\": 768.585, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 768.585, \"end\": 768.605, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,534 --> 00:00:01,119\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長\n\n2\n00:00:08,923 --> 00:00:13,265\n部長早今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了\n\n3\n00:00:37,871 --> 00:00:57,281\n從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表\n\n4\n00:01:00,482 --> 00:01:18,544\n住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了\n\n5\n00:01:19,185 --> 00:01:21,047\n所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些\n\n6\n00:01:36,118 --> 00:01:42,462\n其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法\n\n7\n00:02:06,138 --> 00:02:06,158\n好\n\n8\n00:02:07,657 --> 00:02:36,900\n跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張\n\n9\n00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:58,506\n那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法\n\n10\n00:03:00,607 --> 00:03:03,688\n這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為\n\n11\n00:03:24,872 --> 00:03:34,578\n那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好\n\n12\n00:03:50,167 --> 00:04:13,628\n就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過\n\n13\n00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:41,504\n我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是\n\n14\n00:04:43,385 --> 00:04:46,306\n我們是有反制他的從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易我們對他來講是順差我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊購買或投資如果他這麼做他都不在乎連美國要處置他他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個\n\n15\n00:05:08,467 --> 00:05:18,450\n成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱\n\n16\n00:05:29,793 --> 00:05:31,954\n這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去\n\n17\n00:05:49,059 --> 00:05:53,202\n去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼\n\n18\n00:06:08,868 --> 00:06:30,305\n我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦\n\n19\n00:06:30,845 --> 00:06:35,170\n姑且不論啦因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個\n\n20\n00:06:49,346 --> 00:06:53,128\n外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎\n\n21\n00:07:14,981 --> 00:07:32,227\n跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐\n\n22\n00:07:34,028 --> 00:07:58,238\n好部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是我們區域聯訪\n\n23\n00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:05,860\n對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於\n\n24\n00:08:33,285 --> 00:08:41,212\n這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下\n\n25\n00:08:58,365 --> 00:09:27,625\n其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航\n\n26\n00:09:28,666 --> 00:09:42,846\n是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應\n\n27\n00:09:44,067 --> 00:10:11,094\n對您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果\n\n28\n00:10:11,914 --> 00:10:15,476\n我說的是職業外交官喔對因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任\n\n29\n00:10:40,868 --> 00:10:44,192\n他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的\n\n30\n00:10:56,989 --> 00:10:58,731\n整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要\n\n31\n00:11:13,227 --> 00:11:29,978\n對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告\n\n32\n00:11:37,563 --> 00:11:43,268\n因為這個案子還在作業中如果總統府正式公告因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛就是說職業外交官做不到的而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法是要等正式公告之後\n\n33\n00:11:57,580 --> 00:12:00,781\n因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐\n\n34\n00:12:17,148 --> 00:12:21,911\n在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼\n\n35\n00:12:42,722 --> 00:12:48,605\n在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n534\t1119\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長\n8923\t13265\t部長早 今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了\n37871\t57281\t從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表\n60482\t78544\t住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了\n79185\t81047\t所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些\n96118\t102462\t其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法\n126138\t126158\t好\n127657\t156900\t跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張\n158280\t178506\t那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法\n180607\t183688\t這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為\n204872\t214578\t那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好\n230167\t253628\t就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過\n257970\t281504\t我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是\n283385\t286306\t我們是有反制他的 從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易 我們對他來講是順差 我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊 購買或投資如果他這麼做 他都不在乎連美國要處置他 他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個\n308467\t318450\t成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱\n329793\t331954\t這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去\n349059\t353202\t去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼\n368868\t390305\t我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦\n390845\t395170\t姑且不論啦 因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個\n409346\t413128\t外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎\n434981\t452227\t跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐\n454028\t478238\t好 部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是 我們區域聯訪\n483300\t485860\t對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於\n513285\t521212\t這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下\n538365\t567625\t其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防 全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航\n568666\t582846\t是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應\n584067\t611094\t對 您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一 這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果\n611914\t615476\t我說的是職業外交官喔對 因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任\n640868\t644192\t他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的\n656989\t658731\t整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要\n673227\t689978\t對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告\n697563\t703268\t因為這個案子還在作業中 如果總統府正式公告 因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦 心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛 就是說職業外交官做不到的 而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法 是要等正式公告之後\n717580\t720781\t因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐\n737148\t741911\t在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼\n762722\t768605\t在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長\n部長早 今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了\n從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表\n住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了\n所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些\n其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法\n好\n跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張\n那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法\n這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為\n那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好\n就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過\n我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是\n我們是有反制他的 從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易 我們對他來講是順差 我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊 購買或投資如果他這麼做 他都不在乎連美國要處置他 他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個\n成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱\n這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去\n去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼\n我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦\n姑且不論啦 因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個\n外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎\n跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐\n好 部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是 我們區域聯訪\n對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於\n這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下\n其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防 全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航\n是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應\n對 您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一 這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果\n我說的是職業外交官喔對 因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任\n他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的\n整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要\n對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告\n因為這個案子還在作業中 如果總統府正式公告 因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦 心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛 就是說職業外交官做不到的 而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法 是要等正式公告之後\n因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐\n在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼\n在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.534 --> 00:01.119\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長\n\n00:08.923 --> 00:13.265\n部長早今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了\n\n00:37.871 --> 00:57.281\n從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表\n\n01:00.482 --> 01:18.544\n住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了\n\n01:19.185 --> 01:21.047\n所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些\n\n01:36.118 --> 01:42.462\n其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法\n\n02:06.138 --> 02:06.158\n好\n\n02:07.657 --> 02:36.900\n跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張\n\n02:38.280 --> 02:58.506\n那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法\n\n03:00.607 --> 03:03.688\n這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為\n\n03:24.872 --> 03:34.578\n那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好\n\n03:50.167 --> 04:13.628\n就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過\n\n04:17.970 --> 04:41.504\n我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是\n\n04:43.385 --> 04:46.306\n我們是有反制他的從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易我們對他來講是順差我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊購買或投資如果他這麼做他都不在乎連美國要處置他他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個\n\n05:08.467 --> 05:18.450\n成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱\n\n05:29.793 --> 05:31.954\n這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去\n\n05:49.059 --> 05:53.202\n去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼\n\n06:08.868 --> 06:30.305\n我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦\n\n06:30.845 --> 06:35.170\n姑且不論啦因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個\n\n06:49.346 --> 06:53.128\n外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎\n\n07:14.981 --> 07:32.227\n跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐\n\n07:34.028 --> 07:58.238\n好部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是我們區域聯訪\n\n08:03.300 --> 08:05.860\n對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於\n\n08:33.285 --> 08:41.212\n這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下\n\n08:58.365 --> 09:27.625\n其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航\n\n09:28.666 --> 09:42.846\n是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應\n\n09:44.067 --> 10:11.094\n對您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果\n\n10:11.914 --> 10:15.476\n我說的是職業外交官喔對因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任\n\n10:40.868 --> 10:44.192\n他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的\n\n10:56.989 --> 10:58.731\n整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要\n\n11:13.227 --> 11:29.978\n對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告\n\n11:37.563 --> 11:43.268\n因為這個案子還在作業中如果總統府正式公告因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛就是說職業外交官做不到的而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法是要等正式公告之後\n\n11:57.580 --> 12:00.781\n因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐\n\n12:17.148 --> 12:21.911\n在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼\n\n12:42.722 --> 12:48.605\n在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.534,"end":1.119,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":8.923,"end":13.265,"text":"部長早 今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了"},{"start":37.871,"end":57.281,"text":"從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表"},{"start":60.482,"end":78.544,"text":"住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了"},{"start":79.185,"end":81.047,"text":"所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些"},{"start":96.118,"end":102.462,"text":"其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":126.138,"end":126.158,"text":"好"},{"start":127.657,"end":156.9,"text":"跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張"},{"start":158.28,"end":178.506,"text":"那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法"},{"start":180.607,"end":183.688,"text":"這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為"},{"start":204.872,"end":214.578,"text":"那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好"},{"start":230.167,"end":253.628,"text":"就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過"},{"start":257.97,"end":281.504,"text":"我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是"},{"start":283.385,"end":286.306,"text":"我們是有反制他的 從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易 我們對他來講是順差 我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊 購買或投資如果他這麼做 他都不在乎連美國要處置他 他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個"},{"start":308.467,"end":318.45,"text":"成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱"},{"start":329.793,"end":331.954,"text":"這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去"},{"start":349.059,"end":353.202,"text":"去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼"},{"start":368.868,"end":390.305,"text":"我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦"},{"start":390.845,"end":395.17,"text":"姑且不論啦 因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個"},{"start":409.346,"end":413.128,"text":"外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎"},{"start":434.981,"end":452.227,"text":"跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐"},{"start":454.028,"end":478.238,"text":"好 部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是 我們區域聯訪"},{"start":483.3,"end":485.86,"text":"對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於"},{"start":513.285,"end":521.212,"text":"這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下"},{"start":538.365,"end":567.625,"text":"其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防 全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航"},{"start":568.666,"end":582.846,"text":"是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應"},{"start":584.067,"end":611.094,"text":"對 您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一 這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果"},{"start":611.914,"end":615.476,"text":"我說的是職業外交官喔對 因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任"},{"start":640.868,"end":644.192,"text":"他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的"},{"start":656.989,"end":658.731,"text":"整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要"},{"start":673.227,"end":689.978,"text":"對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告"},{"start":697.563,"end":703.268,"text":"因為這個案子還在作業中 如果總統府正式公告 因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦 心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛 就是說職業外交官做不到的 而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法 是要等正式公告之後"},{"start":717.58,"end":720.781,"text":"因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐"},{"start":737.148,"end":741.911,"text":"在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼"},{"start":762.722,"end":768.605,"text":"在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：今天前面幾位委員大家關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的，我也要就教剛剛召委有提到的南非部分，因為去年10月還有今年1月、3月，南非政府其實都有動作，首先是把我們的名稱等級調降了，從臺灣代表處降級成貿易辦事處。第二個是要求我們要遷離首都，這個部分也有很多次的機會在這裡跟部長都曾經有過詢答，現在他們變本加厲，直接在南非官網上面刪除我們駐處代表廖文哲的資訊，現在僅剩下3個比較低階的助理名稱，再來是直接把臺灣駐處郵件地址的相關資訊改到約翰尼斯堡。就這個部分，部長也一直提到目前我們的駐處運作是正常的，可是我們也擔心，因為過去我們有一些邦交國或者有一些相關的駐處或代表處其實都有過一些往例，第一，接下來可能被斷水、斷電或者會驅逐代表，甚至沒收我們的館產，外交部是不是有更積極的作為？因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做。剛剛部長也提到，現在好像是他們在拖，可是在拖的過程當中是他們有動作，而我們看不到我們有任何的動作，部長，請問現在是什麼樣的作法？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們的外交處境很困難，實質上，我們駐南非代表處還是正常在運作，不過它不斷的有這些動作，不管是片面的改名或者是降級，我們也是不斷在交涉當中。因為今年很特別，今年南非要召開G20，還有它跟中國的關係，但同樣地我們看到它跟美國的關係也是很緊張，南非的總統最近也去訪美，之前川普總統還有盧比歐國務卿也都對於南非，甚至驅逐它駐美國的大使，國內也一樣，不管是在野黨，連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對。它要片面的行動，如果它違反協議或違法，這是有責任的，所以為什麼它今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼，我們當然要審慎因應，因為隨時有可能會有一些行動。"],["馬委員文君：部長剛剛說的，像美國有一些作法或者他們國內有一些作法，那個倒是其次，我們比較在乎的是我們的作法，還有我們現在的處境，因為不管怎麼樣它已經做了，而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生，外交部要怎麼因應？如果等到被斷水、斷電、代表被驅逐或是我們所有的相關人員被驅逐，甚至我們的館產被沒收，走到這一步的時候，我們要怎麼辦？這個部分是外交部應該要做的。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們都做好應變計畫。"],["馬委員文君：舉個例子，好不好？要怎麼應變？"],["林部長佳龍：它如果採取一些非法行為，我們應該怎麼因應，包括實際上確保我們領務人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的權利，我們都有因應的對策，也有相對等的反應，我想先前也談過我們還是有一些可以反制的作為，包括在經貿，還有其他方面，只是我們現在也不好先講。"],["馬委員文君：現在都還不動？"],["林部長佳龍：因為它現在沒有實質上的……"],["馬委員文君：給我們書面資料好不好？因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體有效的應對作法。"],["林部長佳龍：有一些策略必須要先準備好，不能夠先講出來，但是我們是有反制它的作法，比如從雙邊的貿易……"],["馬委員文君：我們的看法有些不太一樣。"],["林部長佳龍：雙邊貿易對他來講是順差，我們是逆差，這裡面有很多的項目我們可以轉移、購買或投資。"],["馬委員文君：如果這麼做它都不在乎，連美國要處置它，它也不在乎，可見其實我們的處置方式……"],["林部長佳龍：就是非洲成長暨機會法案（AGOA）。"],["馬委員文君：所以連它自己都不在乎的情況之下，我們可以有什麼樣有效的具體作法？現在這樣看起來是還沒有，所以請部長提供給我們書面資料。"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！只是我們不希望不斷地升高……"],["馬委員文君：那個不是升高，因為我們一直挨打，我們已經被羞辱了，如果我們連一個作法都沒有做……"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經表達嚴正的抗議。"],["馬委員文君：我們聽不到嚴正的抗議，給我們書面資料，因為目前還看不到，書面資料請會後提供。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，最近有一個人事安排，就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭担任大使，我想要請教以他的資歷，剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人都可以勝任，可是我想要請教的是，現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：在我們的總合外交之下，一方面是價值外交，不管是人權、文化，這方面在北歐五國是特別重視，以他在NGO，包括在國際特赦組織的背景，還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件，事實上，每個國會議員包括委員，都足以勝任我們的大使。"],["馬委員文君：姑且不論他過去在NGO的背景，還有在立法委員任內的表現等等，可是現在大家可能會提到，不管是他逃避兵役，甚至是他沒有具備外交專業，其實我覺得外交專業反而是比較重要的，剛剛部長提到的這些，我想要請教的是，目前在職業外交官裡面，我們找不到這樣的人才嗎？可以具備這樣的條件，然後又有經驗、又是經過考試進部服務的外交人員，難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們現在做區域聯防來推動總合外交，關於北歐五國我是有整體布局的，芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等，所以這個整體的布局會交叉活化，以產生最大的綜合效應，是基於這個區域，就像中東歐……"],["馬委員文君：好，部長說到聯防這個部分，因為我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會由林昶佐來擔任代表，我們專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說的區域聯防？因為現在包括美國，其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出，所以我們現在要參與聯防是我們要出錢的意思？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我們區域聯防啦！"],["馬委員文君：對，區域聯防會不會距離我們太遠？"],["林部長佳龍：譬如說芬蘭……"],["馬委員文君：因為從過去到現在，你說這北歐五國，我們用現實面來看，過去包括芬蘭，他們很多代表其實都很直接，講話都非常直白，他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐，大家在很多場合上面，可能就是這樣子的關係而已，他們講得非常直接。","今天如果我們對於北歐五國有特別的安排，顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法，你們認為沒有辦法去做，可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢，才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務？今天在這裡，部長是不是可以簡要地說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：其實芬蘭在俄烏戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約……"],["馬委員文君：對，2024年就加入了。"],["林部長佳龍：芬蘭的民防，全社會防衛韌性是跟臺灣在交流，包括像海纜被破壞的事件，這都是臺灣現在跟歐洲這一些、北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國，他們跟海洋國家的關係很緊密，我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權，就是今年2月，所以未來也會直航，所以這樣的一個戰略要地牽動了北歐、波羅的海甚至中東歐，我們具有外交及國防委員會專長的人到那邊去，我覺得會進一步來加乘總合外交的效應。"],["馬委員文君：您剛剛一直提到他有在外交及國防這樣子的一個背景，可是我要再次提醒，因為好像沒有辦法提出我們專業外交官為什麼做不到，第一，這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣，因為本來就有很多資歷足夠資深的職業外交官，其實他是可以派任的，我們最重要的是用人唯才還有能力，今天如果……"],["林部長佳龍：現在都是啊！"],["馬委員文君：我說的是職業外交官喔！"],["林部長佳龍：對！北歐這五個國家其他都是。"],["馬委員文君：今天人家是一步一步的往上爬，現在你把這些專業的外交官排除，第二個是這些駐外的單位，包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等，其實我們有很多外館的人力是不足的，今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的一個外交人員，用特任這樣的方式去派任，他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊？他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績？我覺得這個都是存疑的。","所以在這裡，我們還是希望我們在用人方面，尤其現在面對整個國際處境其實是比較兇險的狀況之下，像歐盟現在其實也急著要跟中國大陸有更密切的往來，所以在這個部分，我們還是希望不要對專業外交官……在這段時間裡，其實很明顯地看得出來，他們在升遷上面都受到很嚴重的打壓，如果都是派這些特任的，我們為這些外交官抱屈，我們還是要提醒，如果他可以特別為我們做什麼，是不是會後也請外交部提供一個書面報告？他可以比其他的……"],["林部長佳龍：好，因為這個案子還在作業中，如果總統府正式公告……因為委員關心，我也是很坦然的說明……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係！部長，你至少做一個比較，就是職業外交官做得到的，而他可以做得到的，請給我們一個說法或者一個……"],["林部長佳龍：是不是等正式公告之後？現在都是外面的報導，因為已經都報導了，當然我作為一個政務官，我也是比較能夠給資訊的部分，我儘量都給了……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，因為總統會不會公告，他不會因為我們提出這樣的比較或者說法而有所改變，剛剛提到的海纜，其實海纜在我們臺灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的，我們現在面對大陸的，不管漁船或者其他鐵殼船或者其他使這些海纜受到攻擊或者破壞的，跟北歐五國是不可同日而語，所以我們現在已經要改……"],["林部長佳龍：不過有一艘中國的漁船就是……"],["馬委員文君：我們現在已經漸漸不要用海纜了，所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼？從我現在的理解來看，好像我們必須要付出更多的資源，這是我的理解。"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["馬委員文君：如果不會，我們希望能給我們一些好的說法跟條件，好不好？謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，都在作業中，再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君的質詢。","接下來由林楚茵上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}}