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\"的\", \"start\": 726.592, \"end\": 726.692, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 726.692, \"end\": 726.832, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 726.832, \"end\": 726.992, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 726.992, \"end\": 727.132, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.132, \"end\": 727.152, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 727.152, \"end\": 727.272, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.272, \"end\": 727.293, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,999 --> 00:00:09,646\n現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁?\n\n2\n00:00:13,786 --> 00:00:39,958\n中華電信中華電信哇抱歉咧民營的這樣把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛那個副局長我剛針對趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊他講了一個講法\n\n3\n00:00:41,769 --> 00:00:45,194\n按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦\n\n4\n00:00:51,806 --> 00:00:56,070\n就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說哎喲國民黨快滅黨了喔你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個人家個資同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說\n\n5\n00:01:17,963 --> 00:01:23,107\n我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了\n\n6\n00:01:34,502 --> 00:01:53,698\n那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦這樣我告訴你你們國民黨抓到了嗎你們台黨抓到了嗎我告訴你\n\n7\n00:01:55,700 --> 00:02:07,389\n所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長\n\n8\n00:02:23,786 --> 00:02:36,677\n還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道\n\n9\n00:02:37,912 --> 00:03:04,902\n那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好\n\n10\n00:03:06,370 --> 00:03:28,906\n包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔\n\n11\n00:03:29,386 --> 00:03:45,804\n它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢\n\n12\n00:03:49,742 --> 00:04:10,980\n包委員就具體的個案而言中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊提委員會議來處理是啦你講這個都比較空啊我跟你講憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情你不做你去丟給公投這個其實啊\n\n13\n00:04:12,321 --> 00:04:39,230\n大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊\n\n14\n00:04:40,030 --> 00:05:06,193\n現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦\n\n15\n00:05:07,254 --> 00:05:32,896\n這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣\n\n16\n00:05:34,036 --> 00:05:35,137\n其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何\n\n17\n00:05:59,922 --> 00:06:07,289\n過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正\n\n18\n00:06:08,508 --> 00:06:30,806\n前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔\n\n19\n00:06:31,894 --> 00:06:59,766\n其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投\n\n20\n00:07:02,165 --> 00:07:26,801\n這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路實質修憲不是這樣子嗎副秘書長請教\n\n21\n00:07:28,752 --> 00:07:52,819\n因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投\n\n22\n00:07:53,319 --> 00:08:19,875\n他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185\n\n23\n00:08:22,837 --> 00:08:38,945\n還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是\n\n24\n00:08:41,286 --> 00:08:56,656\n可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦\n\n25\n00:09:00,057 --> 00:09:10,768\n所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是\n\n26\n00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:39,544\n你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的你就發現就是立委的助理啦里長啦一些調查卡站在那裡那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所你說三十公席你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊\n\n27\n00:09:40,744 --> 00:10:09,386\n這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊你說我給你寫一張你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊\n\n28\n00:10:10,186 --> 00:10:22,740\n不然會灰你知道嗎會灰啊不管是要罷免啦選舉啦要去罷免連署你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免我就說欸張署長我就說你就不錯\n\n29\n00:10:25,763 --> 00:10:29,226\n人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去\n\n30\n00:10:48,404 --> 00:11:13,494\n實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦\n\n31\n00:11:14,935 --> 00:11:36,156\n是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們\n\n32\n00:11:38,523 --> 00:12:07,293\n講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n999\t9646\t現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁?\n13786\t39958\t中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長我剛針對 趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法\n41769\t45194\t按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦\n51806\t56070\t就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說 哎喲 國民黨快滅黨了喔 你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔 你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說\n77963\t83107\t我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了\n94502\t113698\t那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你\n115700\t127389\t所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長\n143786\t156677\t還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道\n157912\t184902\t那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好\n186370\t208906\t包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是 我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔\n209386\t225804\t它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢\n229742\t250980\t包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你講這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊\n252321\t279230\t大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊\n280030\t306193\t現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦\n307254\t332896\t這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣\n334036\t335137\t其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何\n359922\t367289\t過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正\n368508\t390806\t前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔\n391894\t419766\t其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投\n422165\t446801\t這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教\n448752\t472819\t因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投\n473319\t499875\t他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185\n502837\t518945\t還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是\n521286\t536656\t可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦\n540057\t550768\t所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是\n555270\t579544\t你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是 立委的助理啦 里長啦 一些調查卡站在那裡 那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公席 你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊\n580744\t609386\t這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊 你說我給你寫一張 你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買 這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊\n610186\t622740\t不然會灰你知道嗎 會灰啊不管是要罷免啦 選舉啦要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免 我就說 欸 張署長 我就說你就不錯\n625763\t629226\t人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去\n648404\t673494\t實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦\n674935\t696156\t是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們\n698523\t727293\t講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好 謝謝\n","txt":"現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁?\n中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長我剛針對 趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法\n按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦\n就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說 哎喲 國民黨快滅黨了喔 你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔 你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說\n我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了\n那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你\n所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長\n還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道\n那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好\n包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是 我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔\n它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢\n包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你講這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊\n大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊\n現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦\n這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣\n其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何\n過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正\n前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔\n其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投\n這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教\n因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投\n他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185\n還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是\n可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦\n所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是\n你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是 立委的助理啦 里長啦 一些調查卡站在那裡 那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公席 你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊\n這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊 你說我給你寫一張 你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買 這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊\n不然會灰你知道嗎 會灰啊不管是要罷免啦 選舉啦要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免 我就說 欸 張署長 我就說你就不錯\n人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去\n實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦\n是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們\n講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.999 --> 00:09.646\n現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁?\n\n00:13.786 --> 00:39.958\n中華電信中華電信哇抱歉咧民營的這樣把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛那個副局長我剛針對趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊他講了一個講法\n\n00:41.769 --> 00:45.194\n按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦\n\n00:51.806 --> 00:56.070\n就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說哎喲國民黨快滅黨了喔你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個人家個資同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說\n\n01:17.963 --> 01:23.107\n我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了\n\n01:34.502 --> 01:53.698\n那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦這樣我告訴你你們國民黨抓到了嗎你們台黨抓到了嗎我告訴你\n\n01:55.700 --> 02:07.389\n所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長\n\n02:23.786 --> 02:36.677\n還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道\n\n02:37.912 --> 03:04.902\n那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好\n\n03:06.370 --> 03:28.906\n包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔\n\n03:29.386 --> 03:45.804\n它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢\n\n03:49.742 --> 04:10.980\n包委員就具體的個案而言中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊提委員會議來處理是啦你講這個都比較空啊我跟你講憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情你不做你去丟給公投這個其實啊\n\n04:12.321 --> 04:39.230\n大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊\n\n04:40.030 --> 05:06.193\n現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦\n\n05:07.254 --> 05:32.896\n這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣\n\n05:34.036 --> 05:35.137\n其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何\n\n05:59.922 --> 06:07.289\n過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正\n\n06:08.508 --> 06:30.806\n前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔\n\n06:31.894 --> 06:59.766\n其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投\n\n07:02.165 --> 07:26.801\n這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路實質修憲不是這樣子嗎副秘書長請教\n\n07:28.752 --> 07:52.819\n因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投\n\n07:53.319 --> 08:19.875\n他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185\n\n08:22.837 --> 08:38.945\n還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是\n\n08:41.286 --> 08:56.656\n可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦\n\n09:00.057 --> 09:10.768\n所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是\n\n09:15.270 --> 09:39.544\n你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的你就發現就是立委的助理啦里長啦一些調查卡站在那裡那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所你說三十公席你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊\n\n09:40.744 --> 10:09.386\n這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊你說我給你寫一張你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊\n\n10:10.186 --> 10:22.740\n不然會灰你知道嗎會灰啊不管是要罷免啦選舉啦要去罷免連署你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免我就說欸張署長我就說你就不錯\n\n10:25.763 --> 10:29.226\n人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去\n\n10:48.404 --> 11:13.494\n實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦\n\n11:14.935 --> 11:36.156\n是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們\n\n11:38.523 --> 12:07.293\n講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.999,"end":9.646,"text":"現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁?"},{"start":13.786,"end":39.958,"text":"中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長我剛針對 趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法"},{"start":41.769,"end":45.194,"text":"按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦"},{"start":51.806,"end":56.07,"text":"就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說 哎喲 國民黨快滅黨了喔 你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔 你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說"},{"start":77.963,"end":83.107,"text":"我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了"},{"start":94.502,"end":113.698,"text":"那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你"},{"start":115.7,"end":127.389,"text":"所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長"},{"start":143.786,"end":156.677,"text":"還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道"},{"start":157.912,"end":184.902,"text":"那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好"},{"start":186.37,"end":208.906,"text":"包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是 我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔"},{"start":209.386,"end":225.804,"text":"它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢"},{"start":229.742,"end":250.98,"text":"包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你講這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊"},{"start":252.321,"end":279.23,"text":"大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊"},{"start":280.03,"end":306.193,"text":"現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦"},{"start":307.254,"end":332.896,"text":"這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":334.036,"end":335.137,"text":"其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何"},{"start":359.922,"end":367.289,"text":"過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正"},{"start":368.508,"end":390.806,"text":"前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔"},{"start":391.894,"end":419.766,"text":"其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投"},{"start":422.165,"end":446.801,"text":"這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教"},{"start":448.752,"end":472.819,"text":"因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投"},{"start":473.319,"end":499.875,"text":"他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185"},{"start":502.837,"end":518.945,"text":"還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是"},{"start":521.286,"end":536.656,"text":"可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦"},{"start":540.057,"end":550.768,"text":"所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是"},{"start":555.27,"end":579.544,"text":"你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是 立委的助理啦 里長啦 一些調查卡站在那裡 那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公席 你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊"},{"start":580.744,"end":609.386,"text":"這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊 你說我給你寫一張 你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買 這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊"},{"start":610.186,"end":622.74,"text":"不然會灰你知道嗎 會灰啊不管是要罷免啦 選舉啦要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免 我就說 欸 張署長 我就說你就不錯"},{"start":625.763,"end":629.226,"text":"人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去"},{"start":648.404,"end":673.494,"text":"實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦"},{"start":674.935,"end":696.156,"text":"是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們"},{"start":698.523,"end":727.293,"text":"講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時4分）謝謝主席，我現在也不知道要叫誰，我叫調查局好嗎？"],["主席：副局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副局長有來，中華電信也有來。"],["主席：中華電信。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不好意思，民營的還叫你們來，但是也剛好來做一個釐清。副局長，我針對剛剛吳宗憲召委所提出來的問題，我是很有興趣，他提到簡訊的發送涉及到整個選罷法第九十八條第二項的問題，我非常支持他這樣的一個講法，按照吳宗憲委員這個講法，我跟你說，你們國民黨就被抓光光了。臺東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我檢舉，一直接收到中國國民黨寄送的一些資料說國民黨快滅黨了，你們要趕快出來聯署、來罷免陳瑩。國民黨要滅黨跟陳瑩有什麼關係？好啦，如果簡訊是違法的，你蒐集人家個資，同樣都等同個資，不是只有簡訊才叫個資，副局長，不是這樣嗎？","本來在選罷法的修訂裡面，罷免不得宣傳這個部分，我們早就已經刪除、把它廢掉了，現在已經可以宣傳了，如果是可以宣傳的話，應該說這個簡訊或者個資在第一階段的取得、處理跟利用，你要去判斷到底哪一個階段是違法才對，不是你發送簡訊就是違法，不是你去寄送都是違法。好啦，我跟你說，這樣你們國民黨就被抓光光，臺東你們就被抓光光。所以我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張，我都深表敬佩，但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人。副局長，不是這樣嗎？你光是笑而已，我也不好意思為難你，你不想說就請回吧！","我請司法院副秘書長、中選會，因為副秘和中選會都是很專業的，在這個地方就不能胡說八道，我想請教幾位的就是，像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了憲判裡面死刑判決是一致性的，就是所謂的死刑公投這樣一個案件，我想請教的就是，這個到底屬不屬於、符不符合公投法？到底是屬於重大政策的創制還是複決？是不是請中選會針對這個地方先表達一下看法，好不好？"],["蔡處長金誥：報告委員，所謂的創制跟複決，簡單來講，創制就是從無到有，複決就是從有到無。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["蔡處長金誥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我會不知道嗎？我現在是跟你說，將具體個案涵攝進去之後，你看這個案子到底算什麼？"],["蔡處長金誥：具體個案，目前中選會是還沒有收到立法院交付的公民投票提案，如果收到以後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實這個案子不會是重大政策的複決，按照113年憲判第8號要求的是，這個修法都還沒有啟動，當然不涉及到整個修正的具體法規範，至於到底算不算政策的創制，你認為呢？"],["蔡處長金誥：報告委員，就具體的個案而言，中選會收到立法院交付的公民投票提案以後，會依照組織法的規定，提委員會議來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，你們說的都比較空泛，我跟你說，憲判第8號裡面講的就是該你立法院去做的事情，你不做，你丟給公投，其實大法官的微言大義就是在講說你是憲政機關且身為立法院，這叫做怠惰啦！探究整個過去公投法立法的目的，我都覺得這次有點背道而馳，公投法本是規範老百姓提出公投的議題，中選會再來審查，對不對？照理說，其實是在審查老百姓提案的公投，可是現在問題來了，現在是立法院所提出來、通過交付公投的，中選會到底有沒有辦法審查？連我自己都畫上一個問號。但是前中選會主委倒是指出了兩條路，第一個，中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟，或者立法委員自己來提出，可是又碰到一個麻煩，這個就可能要請教副秘，以憲法法庭目前停擺來講，現行有8位大法官，根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡第三十條第二項所定的評議門檻10位，可能這個判決到最後會難產，中選會向法院提出確認訴訟可能反而會比較快，不曉得副秘書長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員指教，因為委員所問的還是屬於大法官怎麼去認定的核心範圍，這部分司法行政機關比較不方便回答。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦！過去有很多憲判，或者以前叫做大法官會議解釋，除非後面的大法官會議解釋或憲判去修正前面的大法官會議或憲法法庭的解釋，否則憲法法庭做出來的效力就等同憲法，不是嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以就等同憲法啦！不管是從釋字第185號或者釋字第405號，這一些涉及到整個大法官會議的解釋，我來看其實都講得非常清楚了，連2018年公投案就算通過了，司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候，法律位階還是不得牴觸憲法。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就覺得在野黨……其實我在這個地方也必須指出來，大法官憲判出來以後，要求的是立法院來做立法的工作，立法院不做，它就說它也沒辦法做，然後就丟給民眾公投，要解這個真正要推翻大法官會議解釋的議題，本席認為只有一條路──實質修憲，因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法，你要把大法官會議解釋推翻掉的話，除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外，就剩下一條路──實質修憲，不是這樣嗎？請教副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：就如剛剛委員所提到釋字第185號以及後來的憲訴法第三十八條第一項，都明文規定憲法法庭的判決有拘束各機關跟人民的效力，所以各機關有實現判決內容的義務。當然立法院對於重大政策爭議是可以交付公民公投，這部分我想是屬於民主原則，這個沒有問題……"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然沒有問題啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：只是如果是全民公投之後所創制出來的決定，最後還是要經過相關機關做必要的處置，這個部分如果是依照剛剛所說的釋字第185號及憲訴法第三十八條的規定，都還是要遵循憲法法庭判決的內容。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，當然沒有錯啦！所以講到最後就是大家都混在一起，大家都認為公投是可以取代立法院的，其實也未必啦！除非立法院怠惰，公投到最後畢竟只是一個補充，不然每天都來公投就好了。","副秘書長請回，最後我要請教警政署署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，在這次罷免連署當中發現有很多干擾連署的狀況，你們應該也都很清楚，比如監控、盯梢或是到現場去，大家看到的差不多都是這樣，你看這次大家在反映的就是臺中在罷免連署時，發現立委的助理、里長或是一些樁腳站在那邊，那個很明顯就是實質的監控。可是這有一個很為難的地方，這跟選罷法又比較不一樣，選罷法規定在投票所四周30公尺就不能靠近，問題就是在連署的時候，你也不可能要求連署在哪一個點啊！這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的投票，這部分選罷法就有規定，現在這只是罷免連署而已，我也有可能到菜市場自己設一個點，你說我自己去設一個點，然後要求30公尺之內都不能有人進來，這也很奇怪。但重點就是針對罷免連署有監控跟盯梢的情況，警政署有沒有可能通令各地方警察局，你們要有一個指引，不然會亂掉你知道嗎？不管是要罷免或選舉，如果要去罷免連署，你說我還要有勇氣把它連署下去，這個國家就不正常了。說到罷免，我覺得張署長人不錯，但人家要去罷免你，我就說：不要啦！這個我也可以公開講啊！如果我覺得你很差，我就是要罷免你，怎麼還需要勇氣？如果講到勇氣的話，除非是基於人情，那個沒話講，也就是道德勸說同庄頭的人不要去，這是基於人情。但如果是黑衣人、民意代表、立委助理、議員助理站在那個地方看你是不是真的要簽下去，實質上會產生威嚇。警政署或者基層警察人員，面對有人去舉報這些狀況的時候，你們是不是應該有一個指引？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，連署現場有各種樣態，如果有牽涉到違法，我們當然就會依法偵辦。如果還沒有進入到違法的狀況，我們大概都是勸導和勸離。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，這有一個基本前提是我們去投票時，我們是自由行使我們的投票權；我們去罷免，那也是自由去行使。其實在整個憲法的設計裡面，選舉跟罷免的權利是一樣大的，只是後面遇到罷免還要多好幾個階段，在這種情況下，你說行政部門每一樣……講到最後又是立法院的怠惰，我們沒有辦法把它弄得更細緻，但因為目前法律在這方面還沒有規範的時候，你總是要執法嘛！"],["張署長榮興：對，我們會排除現場會干擾或影響的狀況，讓連署或是罷免的過程當中，只要是符合規定的話，讓他可以順利來進行，就是不要受到現場的干擾。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是警政部門該做的事情，好不好？謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}}