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\"87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 41.921, \"end\": 42.622, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 42.622, \"end\": 42.882, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"蘭\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 42.882, \"end\": 43.242, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 43.242, \"end\": 43.342, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 43.342, \"end\": 43.602, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 43.602, \"end\": 44.463, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"蘭\"}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 44.463, \"end\": 44.963, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 44.963, \"end\": 45.063, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 45.063, \"end\": 45.243, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"林\", 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{\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 78.899, \"end\": 78.999, \"score\": 0.641}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 78.999, \"end\": 79.24, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 79.24, \"end\": 79.58, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"蘭\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 79.58, \"end\": 79.761, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 79.761, \"end\": 80.101, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 80.101, \"end\": 80.262, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 80.262, \"end\": 80.903, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 80.903, \"end\": 81.023, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 81.023, \"end\": 81.043, \"score\": 0.043}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 81.043, \"end\": 81.123, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 81.123, \"end\": 81.143, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 82.83, \"end\": 102.001, \"text\": 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我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講什麼辦 並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講 不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 844.933, \"end\": 844.953, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 844.953, \"end\": 845.133, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 845.133, \"end\": 845.614, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"貴\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 845.614, \"end\": 845.694, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 845.694, \"end\": 845.974, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 845.974, \"end\": 846.134, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 846.134, \"end\": 846.314, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 846.314, \"end\": 846.514, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 846.514, \"end\": 846.594, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 846.594, \"end\": 846.714, \"score\": 0.833}, 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879.482, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 879.482, \"end\": 879.622, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 879.622, \"end\": 879.803, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 879.803, \"end\": 879.823, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,707 --> 00:00:02,755\n謝謝主席那我們有請林佳龍林部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:40,080\n這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸\n\n3\n00:00:41,921 --> 00:01:09,301\n87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握\n\n4\n00:01:09,841 --> 00:01:21,143\n那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的\n\n5\n00:01:22,830 --> 00:01:42,001\n我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的\n\n6\n00:01:42,341 --> 00:02:11,396\n第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢\n\n7\n00:02:12,392 --> 00:02:27,645\n其實我們現在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人\n\n8\n00:02:39,895 --> 00:03:07,516\n那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎\n\n9\n00:03:10,472 --> 00:03:31,546\n這個細節我不瞭解一次只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度\n\n10\n00:03:32,560 --> 00:04:01,346\n所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰\n\n11\n00:04:02,625 --> 00:04:18,436\n或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上\n\n12\n00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:23,777\n那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約\n\n13\n00:04:46,863 --> 00:04:53,393\n但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎\n\n14\n00:04:55,900 --> 00:05:20,633\n這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦\n\n15\n00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:38,204\n你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個\n\n16\n00:05:46,389 --> 00:05:49,651\nPodcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說\n\n17\n00:06:01,559 --> 00:06:29,600\n中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的\n\n18\n00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:50,829\n那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件\n\n19\n00:06:53,770 --> 00:07:13,675\n這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦\n\n20\n00:07:14,435 --> 00:07:19,517\n當然啊那為什麼要講說講說並購說的人又不是我是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件這個是賴清德總統說的所以我要問的是\n\n21\n00:07:37,682 --> 00:07:44,229\n在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後\n\n22\n00:07:54,679 --> 00:08:11,417\n有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當\n\n23\n00:08:13,699 --> 00:08:22,703\n台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾\n\n24\n00:08:39,269 --> 00:09:07,388\n所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎\n\n25\n00:09:08,669 --> 00:09:24,398\n大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的\n\n26\n00:09:30,862 --> 00:09:51,655\n所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有\n\n27\n00:09:53,576 --> 00:09:57,658\n因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛\n\n28\n00:10:13,504 --> 00:10:19,370\n所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話\n\n29\n00:10:30,489 --> 00:10:57,031\n賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次第三次第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話\n\n30\n00:10:59,455 --> 00:11:02,419\n這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上在外交上來說是好還是壞\n\n31\n00:11:14,315 --> 00:11:33,421\n這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮\n\n32\n00:11:35,642 --> 00:11:52,188\n我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談\n\n33\n00:11:53,808 --> 00:12:03,232\n在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品\n\n34\n00:12:20,778 --> 00:12:23,340\n我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品\n\n35\n00:12:35,971 --> 00:12:57,962\n而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出\n\n36\n00:12:58,542 --> 00:13:24,395\n如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有\n\n37\n00:13:26,036 --> 00:13:41,503\n比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊\n\n38\n00:13:41,963 --> 00:13:47,769\n他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊\n\n39\n00:14:04,933 --> 00:14:32,211\n這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有完全沒有是你不瞭解我的立場沒有是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯所以不應該講什麼辦並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品謝謝好中華我要講不管台灣也好中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分\n\n40\n00:14:33,476 --> 00:14:39,823\n我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n707\t2755\t謝謝主席那我們有請林佳龍林部長\n12220\t40080\t這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸\n41921\t69301\t87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握\n69841\t81143\t那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的\n82830\t102001\t我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的\n102341\t131396\t第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢\n132392\t147645\t其實我們現在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人\n159895\t187516\t那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎\n190472\t211546\t這個細節我不瞭解一次 只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度\n212560\t241346\t所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰\n242625\t258436\t或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上\n258996\t263777\t那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約\n286863\t293393\t但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎\n295900\t320633\t這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦\n325436\t338204\t你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個\n346389\t349651\tPodcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說\n361559\t389600\t中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的\n390040\t410829\t那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件\n413770\t433675\t這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦\n434435\t439517\t當然啊 那為什麼要講說 講說並購說的人又不是我 是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊 我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的 但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件 這個是賴清德總統說的 所以我要問的是\n457682\t464229\t在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後\n474679\t491417\t有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當\n493699\t502703\t台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾\n519269\t547388\t所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎\n548669\t564398\t大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的\n570862\t591655\t所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有\n593576\t597658\t因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛\n613504\t619370\t所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話\n630489\t657031\t賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對 但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對 併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊 第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次 第三次 第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話\n659455\t662419\t這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上 在外交上來說是好還是壞\n674315\t693421\t這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是 我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對 我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮\n695642\t712188\t我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談\n713808\t723232\t在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品\n740778\t743340\t我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對 是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品\n755971\t777962\t而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出\n778542\t804395\t如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有\n806036\t821503\t比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊\n821963\t827769\t他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊\n844933\t872211\t這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有 完全沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有 我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講什麼辦 並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講 不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分\n873476\t879823\t我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們有請林佳龍林部長\n這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸\n87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握\n那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的\n我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的\n第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢\n其實我們現在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人\n那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎\n這個細節我不瞭解一次 只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度\n所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰\n或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上\n那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約\n但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎\n這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦\n你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個\nPodcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說\n中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的\n那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件\n這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦\n當然啊 那為什麼要講說 講說並購說的人又不是我 是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊 我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的 但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件 這個是賴清德總統說的 所以我要問的是\n在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後\n有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當\n台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾\n所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎\n大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的\n所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有\n因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛\n所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話\n賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對 但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對 併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊 第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次 第三次 第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話\n這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上 在外交上來說是好還是壞\n這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是 我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對 我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮\n我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談\n在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品\n我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對 是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品\n而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出\n如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有\n比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊\n他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊\n這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有 完全沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有 我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講什麼辦 並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講 不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分\n我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.707 --> 00:02.755\n謝謝主席那我們有請林佳龍林部長\n\n00:12.220 --> 00:40.080\n這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸\n\n00:41.921 --> 01:09.301\n87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握\n\n01:09.841 --> 01:21.143\n那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的\n\n01:22.830 --> 01:42.001\n我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的\n\n01:42.341 --> 02:11.396\n第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢\n\n02:12.392 --> 02:27.645\n其實我們現在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人\n\n02:39.895 --> 03:07.516\n那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎\n\n03:10.472 --> 03:31.546\n這個細節我不瞭解一次只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度\n\n03:32.560 --> 04:01.346\n所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰\n\n04:02.625 --> 04:18.436\n或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上\n\n04:18.996 --> 04:23.777\n那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約\n\n04:46.863 --> 04:53.393\n但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎\n\n04:55.900 --> 05:20.633\n這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦\n\n05:25.436 --> 05:38.204\n你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個\n\n05:46.389 --> 05:49.651\nPodcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說\n\n06:01.559 --> 06:29.600\n中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的\n\n06:30.040 --> 06:50.829\n那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件\n\n06:53.770 --> 07:13.675\n這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦\n\n07:14.435 --> 07:19.517\n當然啊那為什麼要講說講說並購說的人又不是我是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件這個是賴清德總統說的所以我要問的是\n\n07:37.682 --> 07:44.229\n在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後\n\n07:54.679 --> 08:11.417\n有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當\n\n08:13.699 --> 08:22.703\n台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾\n\n08:39.269 --> 09:07.388\n所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎\n\n09:08.669 --> 09:24.398\n大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的\n\n09:30.862 --> 09:51.655\n所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有\n\n09:53.576 --> 09:57.658\n因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛\n\n10:13.504 --> 10:19.370\n所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話\n\n10:30.489 --> 10:57.031\n賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次第三次第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話\n\n10:59.455 --> 11:02.419\n這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上在外交上來說是好還是壞\n\n11:14.315 --> 11:33.421\n這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮\n\n11:35.642 --> 11:52.188\n我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談\n\n11:53.808 --> 12:03.232\n在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品\n\n12:20.778 --> 12:23.340\n我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品\n\n12:35.971 --> 12:57.962\n而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出\n\n12:58.542 --> 13:24.395\n如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有\n\n13:26.036 --> 13:41.503\n比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊\n\n13:41.963 --> 13:47.769\n他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊\n\n14:04.933 --> 14:32.211\n這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有完全沒有是你不瞭解我的立場沒有是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯所以不應該講什麼辦並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品謝謝好中華我要講不管台灣也好中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分\n\n14:33.476 --> 14:39.823\n我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.707,"end":2.755,"text":"謝謝主席那我們有請林佳龍林部長"},{"start":12.22,"end":40.08,"text":"這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸"},{"start":41.921,"end":69.301,"text":"87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通跟委員報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握"},{"start":69.841,"end":81.143,"text":"那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的"},{"start":82.83,"end":102.001,"text":"我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的"},{"start":102.341,"end":131.396,"text":"第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢"},{"start":132.392,"end":147.645,"text":"其實我們現在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人"},{"start":159.895,"end":187.516,"text":"那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎"},{"start":190.472,"end":211.546,"text":"這個細節我不瞭解一次 只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度"},{"start":212.56,"end":241.346,"text":"所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰"},{"start":242.625,"end":258.436,"text":"或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上"},{"start":258.996,"end":263.777,"text":"那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約"},{"start":286.863,"end":293.393,"text":"但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎"},{"start":295.9,"end":320.633,"text":"這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦"},{"start":325.436,"end":338.204,"text":"你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個"},{"start":346.389,"end":349.651,"text":"Podcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說"},{"start":361.559,"end":389.6,"text":"中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的"},{"start":390.04,"end":410.829,"text":"那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件"},{"start":413.77,"end":433.675,"text":"這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦"},{"start":434.435,"end":439.517,"text":"當然啊 那為什麼要講說 講說並購說的人又不是我 是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊 我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的 但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件 這個是賴清德總統說的 所以我要問的是"},{"start":457.682,"end":464.229,"text":"在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後"},{"start":474.679,"end":491.417,"text":"有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當"},{"start":493.699,"end":502.703,"text":"台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾"},{"start":519.269,"end":547.388,"text":"所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎"},{"start":548.669,"end":564.398,"text":"大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的"},{"start":570.862,"end":591.655,"text":"所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有"},{"start":593.576,"end":597.658,"text":"因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛"},{"start":613.504,"end":619.37,"text":"所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話"},{"start":630.489,"end":657.031,"text":"賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對 但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對 併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊 第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次 第三次 第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話"},{"start":659.455,"end":662.419,"text":"這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上 在外交上來說是好還是壞"},{"start":674.315,"end":693.421,"text":"這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是 我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對 我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮"},{"start":695.642,"end":712.188,"text":"我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談"},{"start":713.808,"end":723.232,"text":"在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品"},{"start":740.778,"end":743.34,"text":"我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對 是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品"},{"start":755.971,"end":777.962,"text":"而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出"},{"start":778.542,"end":804.395,"text":"如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有"},{"start":806.036,"end":821.503,"text":"比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊"},{"start":821.963,"end":827.769,"text":"他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊"},{"start":844.933,"end":872.211,"text":"這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有 完全沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有 我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講什麼辦 並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講 不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分"},{"start":873.476,"end":879.823,"text":"我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我們有請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐前委員的人事任命案，您剛剛也鬆口了，這個任命案正在辦理當中，您剛剛在其他委員的質詢當中提到了，因為林昶佐前委員過去參與過很多，比方重金屬音樂是芬蘭民眾很喜歡的文化，所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的。但對一般民眾來說，我必須坦白地講，就是酬庸。87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語，請問一下，林昶佐未來擔任大使時應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界及民眾溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，芬蘭人幾乎都會講英語，都可以講，北歐的國家很國際化。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以講，但是87%……因為我去過，那邊民眾講的及官員講的都是芬蘭語，除非你必須要跟他講英文，而且林昶佐前委員的英文程度如何，我也沒有把握。請問一下，這樣子的語言是否未來是需要事務官的協助？仍然需要外交體系的事務官去協助他跟芬蘭的政府要員做溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查，如果要這樣的標準，當然就是很嚴格，基本上我們會有一些工作階層……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果是直接在芬蘭的所有外交官要往上的話，就是剛剛馬文君委員講的，如果原本派任的要往上升的話，第一個，他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的；第二個，不管是用英語或是芬蘭語，他都是能夠雙管齊下的。今天林昶佐的人事案，他未來勢必需要有翻譯或者由事務官擔任翻譯，那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任？這個是大家覺得有所質疑的地方，如果今天沒有外交的專業，只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交，那就叫他多去表演、多去唱歌就好了啊！為什麼要擔任大使呢？"],["林部長佳龍：其實現在在那邊擔任快6年的張秀禎代表即將內定回來接國傳司司長，他也不會講芬蘭語，你看他可以促成臺灣跟芬蘭的航權談判。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任？"],["林部長佳龍：英語是國際共通的語言。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務？而是用這種讓大家認為是酬庸的方法去聘用一個曾經只是在臺灣擔任立法委員的人？","我要講的是，如果這個人是非常認真工作的話，那也未嘗不可，可是部長，林昶佐前委員在2007年受邀擔任二二八事件基金會董事的時候，您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權，二二八事件基金會當然是一個重要的人權委員會，你知道在第6屆第2任期裡面基金會所開的15次董事會議林昶佐前委員參加過幾次嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個細節我不了解。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有去過1次，在您剛剛所說這麼重要的一個人權相關組織裡面開了15次會議只有1次的出席，出席率是6.7%，引發了二二八事件受難者家屬的批評，質疑他對轉型正義的認真程度。他在臺灣擔任二二八董事時的出席率都只有6.7%，如果他到芬蘭，你怎麼有能力去確認他能夠勝任這個工作呢？他在臺灣都做不好了，你覺得他到芬蘭能夠做得好？這也是讓我覺得很奇怪的事。","另外，我要請教兵役的問題，在芬蘭的兵役裡面，請問如果有逃兵、假病的情況，在芬蘭有沒有相關的法律後果？或者是您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解？他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有嘛！所以他們有分成軍事服役，最起碼要當五個月多以上。但現在要派去的林昶佐大使完全沒有當過兵，這種情況在芬蘭裡面你要大家如何自處？我們派一個閃兵的、我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家，我們自己都站不住腳啦！我們今天要去談兩岸之間的風險、要去談所謂的國防韌性、要去談所謂的相關威脅，你說芬蘭要加入北約，但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過，連中華民國的兵都沒有做過，這樣子的情況，你覺得合適嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分會由當事人來做說明，他也有所說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：當事人說明，我們在派任他的時候沒有想過這個問題嗎？因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵是大家都知道的事情，林昶佐委員擔任二二八的董事但沒有出席，這也是大家都知道的事情，我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量，就會被大家認為是酬庸，所以我希望部長也可以特別注意這一點。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是酬庸啦！他是夠資格啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：至於說任用的考量，有我們整體的考量……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有你們任命的權力，但是民眾也會有自我的公評在心中。","另外，我想要問的是有關於365天，賴清德總統上任的總體檢，昨天就公布了一個Podcast專訪，在裡面賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係，雖然今天來的是外交部，可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性，賴清德總統說，中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，如果你要併我的公司，你要提條件啊，不是臺灣來提條件。對於這樣的併購說，我本人是沒有辦法接受的，因為我覺得在任何情況之下，第一個，兩岸之間不是公司；第二個，也沒有所謂的併購。不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件，我們都不能去接受，而且我們是反對被中共單方面的併吞，要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的。","另外，當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候，大家知道川普一度說他們要併吞加拿大，加拿大的總理說什麼呢？他說加拿大是非賣品，永遠不賣。所以我想要問一下，賴清德總統把中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的併購說，甚至說大陸可以提條件，說了這個話之後，有沒有任何外館或智庫，對於這樣的說法，對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息？有沒有什麼要去做澄清的？"],["林部長佳龍：這是比喻啦，我想不管……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這個比喻合適嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我的意思是說，不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊，那為什麼要講說……"],["林部長佳龍：我們國家的主權是不能被……"],["徐委員巧芯：講併購說的人又不是我，是賴清德賴總統耶！"],["林部長佳龍：他們說臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分，就是要把我們併吞啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們是反對的啊！我們沒有認為臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分啊！"],["林部長佳龍：有另外一個國家或公司說我們是他們的一部分，我們當然都反對嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們是反對的，但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件，這個是賴清德總統說的。所以我要問的是，在這番言論出來之後，國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應或是來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思？"],["林部長佳龍：這個應該去問中國啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：不是、不是，我是說來問的，因為這是賴總統講的話，這不是習近平講的話……"],["林部長佳龍：他的立場很清楚啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要問的是說，在這番話出來以後，有沒有任何外館或是外部人員、智庫人員來詢問，為什麼賴清德總統會講出這一席話？這讓我也感到非常意外，因為他這樣的說法，我個人是完全不能接受的。"],["林部長佳龍：你不能只看這一段，你要看整個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我有看全部了，但是這一段話他確實就是……"],["林部長佳龍：這個比喻是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個比喻是否失當？"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣的主權屬於我們國民全體啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們是民主國家產生的政府……"],["徐委員巧芯：那能夠併購嗎？能讓對岸提條件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：只有我們臺灣人民能決定我們自己的未來啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：連提條件都不應該嘛！你就不應該說大陸可以來提條件啊！"],["林部長佳龍：委員！您……"],["徐委員巧芯：這句話如果由我來講，請問會受到多少抨擊？為什麼賴清德總統……"],["林部長佳龍：中國根本就不提條件，所以這個就是有點用子之矛攻子之盾嘛！因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：哇，所以你覺得這樣的說法很好，可以繼續講！"],["林部長佳龍：因為他就說我們是他的，根本不帶任何條件啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們反對啊！我們反對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們反對啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以他說你要提條件啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們反對被統嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們當然反對被統啊！所以……"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！那好啊，要支持賴總統啊……"],["徐委員巧芯：那哪有什麼大公司、小公司的差別啊？我沒有覺得中國大陸是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，而且還可以併購、還可以提條件，我沒有這樣覺得啊！"],["林部長佳龍：不是大小就可以併人或被併啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：那可以提條件嗎？大陸今天要跟臺灣提條件，可以提條件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個意思是說，中共現在說我們是他的，他連條件都不提，他說我們不是，他就要打我們耶……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有喔！沒有喔！他沒有這樣講！他說你要提條件啊，上面寫得清清楚楚的，大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情……"],["林部長佳龍：和平的方式，他提什麼我們都可以聽聽，但武力併臺我們不可以接受。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們的總統提到說要不要提條件，這個是我們的總統自己講的，所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸可以提條件的時候，對於中華民國，包含我們的民眾來說，是會有一些緊張的，而且以我來說，我是不能認同的。"],["林部長佳龍：其實賴總統的立場大家都很清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我想要問的是，最後我要問的是，所有的外館跟智庫都沒有針對這番話對外交部或是任何相關單位提出詢問？沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：因為中共連提條件都不要，這就呈現這個問題，他就是併吞臺灣不擇手段啊！文攻武嚇啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們反對這件事情嘛，那為什麼要談公司併購的事情呢？他們講是他們的事情，可是我們的總統自己去談併購說，這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛！所以我的意思是說，要嘛外交部可以解釋、可以澄清，我給你們一個機會；要嘛我要詢問的是，有沒有人在看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪，然後來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話？"],["林部長佳龍：賴總統的立場很清楚，我每天都很清楚，他不管是四個堅持或四個所謂和平的支柱，他所有的……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是併購說是第一次講，併購說是第一次講，對吧？"],["林部長佳龍：這是舉例啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：併購說的舉例是第一次，對吧？過去沒有舉過這個例子，這是第一次。"],["林部長佳龍：我想正式的媒體的訪問嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，第一次嘛，所以我想要說這個是第一次，那會不會有第二次、第三次、第四次？如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話。"],["林部長佳龍：這是個比喻，賴總統的立場非常清楚……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛，我們說這個比喻如果很好，以後就可以經常地去做這個比喻，您認為接下來繼續用這樣一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係，在國際上、在外交上來說是好還是壞？"],["林部長佳龍：這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛，他就是認為我們是他的，這是前提啊！一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛！所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這凸顯在國際上和平解決爭議才是前提啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：和平解決爭議才是前提，那對方要提條件……"],["林部長佳龍：他要以武力併吞臺灣嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：他提條件來的話，我們也可以考慮？"],["林部長佳龍：欸……"],["徐委員巧芯：我覺得我們不能考慮啦，有什麼好考慮的！"],["林部長佳龍：要坐下來……"],["徐委員巧芯：中華民國就是我們不能退讓的底線，沒有大公司跟小公司的差別，也沒有併購的可能性，這是我的立場跟主張，我想應該外交部也要有同樣的主張！"],["林部長佳龍：基於對等、尊嚴，還有互惠，這些原則我們都可以坐下來談。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們覺得可以坐下來談？"],["林部長佳龍：在國際政治上，以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談，所有的……"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼加拿大的總理可以直接說：我們是非賣品，永遠不賣。結果在臺灣，我們的總統說我們可以互相來看併購，你來提條件啊！為什麼兩國差異這麼大？"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣的主權屬於國民全體，我們是民主產生的……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是不是非賣品？你覺得臺灣、中華民國是不是非賣品？"],["林部長佳龍：我不用這個字眼，因為你到時候又講說要不要賣、要不要賣？"],["徐委員巧芯：是不是非賣品嘛？這個同樣是被講說可能會被併購啊，可能會被併吞等等的，為什麼加拿大總理可以講得這麼清楚，就是非賣品，而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購？因為時間的關係，我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明，這一番話已經引起臺灣很多輿論的討論，即使你在這裡澄清、即使你說賴總統的外交政策及兩岸政策一向非常清楚，但是我也必須講，所謂的併購說是他第一次提出，如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話，他未來會繼續提啊，如果覺得不合適的話，請……"],["林部長佳龍：你可不可以讓我講一句話？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，可以，那請修正。請說。"],["林部長佳龍：其實賴總統這個談話要成立的前提就是臺灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分，才有辦法談啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：中華民國當然不是中華人民共和國的一部分……"],["林部長佳龍：如果我們是對方的一部分，我們怎麼談呢？"],["徐委員巧芯：我們沒有認為中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分，沒有，從來就沒有！"],["林部長佳龍：我想這一個立場很清楚，臺灣不是中國的一部分，因為他說我們是他的一部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：中華民國當然不是中華人民共和國的一部分啊！他說是，我們認為不是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：他為什麼說我們是他的一部分？我們說不是啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：他想要武力統一，但我們認為不是啊，這跟併購有什麼關係啊？"],["林部長佳龍：他不是只有武力統一，他說我們是他的啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼講要提條件？為什麼講中共要提條件？無論他提什麼樣的條件，我們都應該要反對……"],["林部長佳龍：中共現在不提條件，他就是要我們啊……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為臺灣是非賣品！他提了什麼條件？他沒有提條件……"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然不能被他欺壓！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件，我們站在中華民國的主權立場上，我們都要反對的啦！"],["林部長佳龍：這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有！完全沒有！是你不了解我們的立場。"],["林部長佳龍：你們是比較統派的啊！應該是主張要談的啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，是你不了解我的立場，並沒有！我認為中華民國就是非賣品！我認為中華民國就是非賣品！"],["林部長佳龍：國民的主權本來就不能夠被……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒錯！所以就不應該講什麼併不併購這樣的比喻……"],["林部長佳龍：所以臺灣人民可以決定臺灣的未來啊……"],["徐委員巧芯：併不併購這樣的比喻我認為是不恰當的，因為中華民國是非賣品！謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我要講，不管臺灣也好、中華民國也好，都不是中華人民共和國的一部分啦。"],["徐委員巧芯：我必須說，我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分，中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}}