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\"所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 779.467, \"end\": 779.667, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 779.667, \"end\": 780.007, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 780.007, \"end\": 780.287, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 780.287, \"end\": 780.848, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 780.848, \"end\": 781.168, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 781.168, \"end\": 782.168, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 782.168, \"end\": 782.288, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 782.288, \"end\": 783.388, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 783.388, \"end\": 783.568, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 783.568, \"end\": 783.748, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 783.748, \"end\": 784.108, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 784.108, \"end\": 784.288, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 784.288, \"end\": 784.508, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 784.508, \"end\": 784.889, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"異\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 784.889, \"end\": 785.009, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 785.009, \"end\": 785.309, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 785.309, \"end\": 785.489, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 785.489, \"end\": 785.649, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 785.649, \"end\": 785.749, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 785.749, \"end\": 786.029, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"輪\"}, {\"word\": \"廓\", \"start\": 786.029, \"end\": 786.149, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 786.149, \"end\": 786.289, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 786.289, \"end\": 786.589, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 786.589, \"end\": 786.769, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 786.769, \"end\": 787.189, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 787.189, \"end\": 787.289, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 787.289, \"end\": 787.469, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 787.469, \"end\": 787.609, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 787.609, \"end\": 787.809, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 787.809, \"end\": 788.009, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 788.009, \"end\": 789.17, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 789.17, \"end\": 789.47, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 789.47, \"end\": 789.63, \"score\": 0.569}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 789.63, \"end\": 789.95, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 789.95, \"end\": 790.25, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 790.25, \"end\": 790.47, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 790.47, \"end\": 790.75, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 790.75, \"end\": 791.75, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 791.75, \"end\": 792.29, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 792.29, \"end\": 792.45, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 792.45, \"end\": 792.57, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 792.57, \"end\": 792.99, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 792.99, \"end\": 793.17, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 793.17, \"end\": 793.35, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 793.35, \"end\": 793.531, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 793.531, \"end\": 793.751, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 793.751, \"end\": 793.891, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 793.891, \"end\": 796.271, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 796.271, \"end\": 796.631, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"復\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 796.631, \"end\": 796.831, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 796.831, \"end\": 796.951, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 796.951, \"end\": 797.371, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 797.371, \"end\": 797.531, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 797.531, \"end\": 797.892, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 797.892, \"end\": 798.072, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 798.072, \"end\": 798.412, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 798.412, \"end\": 798.612, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 798.612, \"end\": 798.792, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 798.792, \"end\": 798.932, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 798.932, \"end\": 799.112, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 799.112, \"end\": 799.192, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 799.192, \"end\": 799.372, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 799.372, \"end\": 799.692, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 799.692, \"end\": 799.852, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 799.852, \"end\": 799.872, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 799.872, \"end\": 800.012, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 800.012, \"end\": 800.032, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 800.032, \"end\": 800.052, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 804.727, \"end\": 829.059, \"text\": \"我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 804.727, \"end\": 805.207, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 805.207, \"end\": 805.467, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 805.467, \"end\": 806.028, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 806.028, \"end\": 806.348, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 806.348, \"end\": 806.628, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 806.628, \"end\": 807.008, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 807.008, \"end\": 807.168, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 807.168, \"end\": 807.288, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 807.288, \"end\": 807.528, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 807.528, \"end\": 807.648, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 807.648, \"end\": 807.809, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 807.809, \"end\": 808.089, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 808.089, \"end\": 808.209, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 808.209, \"end\": 808.289, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 808.289, \"end\": 808.549, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 808.549, \"end\": 808.749, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 808.749, \"end\": 809.129, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 809.129, \"end\": 809.249, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 809.249, \"end\": 809.389, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 809.389, \"end\": 809.65, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 809.65, \"end\": 810.01, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 810.01, \"end\": 810.45, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 810.45, \"end\": 810.97, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 810.97, \"end\": 811.29, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 811.29, \"end\": 811.691, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 811.691, \"end\": 811.871, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 811.871, \"end\": 812.071, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 812.071, \"end\": 812.211, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 812.211, \"end\": 812.511, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 812.511, \"end\": 813.011, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 813.011, \"end\": 813.371, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 813.371, \"end\": 813.611, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 813.611, \"end\": 813.772, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 813.772, \"end\": 814.092, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 814.092, \"end\": 814.672, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 814.672, \"end\": 814.772, 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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 816.893, \"end\": 817.073, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 817.073, \"end\": 818.094, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 818.094, \"end\": 818.374, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 818.374, \"end\": 818.634, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 818.634, \"end\": 818.754, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 818.754, \"end\": 818.874, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 818.874, \"end\": 818.994, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 818.994, \"end\": 819.174, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 819.174, \"end\": 819.314, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 819.314, \"end\": 819.615, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"銷\"}, {\"word\": \"毀\"}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 819.615, \"end\": 820.595, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 820.595, \"end\": 821.495, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 821.495, \"end\": 821.976, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 821.976, \"end\": 822.116, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 822.116, \"end\": 822.276, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 822.276, \"end\": 822.476, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 822.476, \"end\": 822.616, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 822.616, \"end\": 822.716, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 822.716, \"end\": 822.816, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 822.816, \"end\": 822.976, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 822.976, \"end\": 823.116, \"score\": 0.598}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 823.116, \"end\": 823.416, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 823.416, \"end\": 824.057, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 824.057, \"end\": 824.237, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 824.237, \"end\": 824.377, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 824.377, \"end\": 824.557, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 824.557, \"end\": 824.657, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 824.657, \"end\": 824.757, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 824.757, \"end\": 824.877, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 824.877, \"end\": 825.097, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"堆\", \"start\": 825.097, \"end\": 825.217, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 825.217, \"end\": 825.558, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 825.558, \"end\": 826.138, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 826.138, \"end\": 826.258, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 826.258, \"end\": 826.458, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 826.458, \"end\": 826.858, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 826.858, \"end\": 827.218, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"滿\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 827.218, \"end\": 827.418, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 827.418, \"end\": 827.579, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 827.579, \"end\": 827.839, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 827.839, \"end\": 828.019, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 828.019, \"end\": 828.179, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 828.179, \"end\": 828.339, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 828.339, \"end\": 828.499, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 828.499, \"end\": 828.779, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 828.779, \"end\": 828.919, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 828.919, \"end\": 828.979, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 828.979, \"end\": 828.999, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 828.999, \"end\": 829.039, \"score\": 0.472}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 829.039, \"end\": 829.059, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 830.6, \"end\": 850.335, \"text\": \"警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 830.6, \"end\": 830.76, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 830.76, \"end\": 830.9, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 830.9, \"end\": 830.98, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 830.98, \"end\": 831.241, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 831.241, \"end\": 831.401, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 831.401, \"end\": 831.741, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 831.741, \"end\": 832.221, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 832.221, \"end\": 832.782, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 832.782, \"end\": 832.942, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 832.942, \"end\": 833.262, 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\"start\": 1189.168, \"end\": 1189.248, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 1189.248, \"end\": 1189.268, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1189.268, \"end\": 1189.288, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1189.288, \"end\": 1189.308, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1189.308, \"end\": 1189.409, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 1189.409, \"end\": 1189.429, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1189.429, \"end\": 1189.449, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,420 --> 00:00:26,126\n好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委你好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發\n\n2\n00:00:39,552 --> 00:00:50,275\n這個個資外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送\n\n3\n00:00:54,059 --> 00:01:06,993\n這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是\n\n4\n00:01:09,662 --> 00:01:22,968\n除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送\n\n5\n00:01:25,096 --> 00:01:40,632\n一般是沒有技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方\n\n6\n00:01:41,684 --> 00:02:00,669\n好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎\n\n7\n00:02:01,289 --> 00:02:25,246\n對沒錯但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意\n\n8\n00:02:26,101 --> 00:02:31,442\n我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用\n\n9\n00:02:54,348 --> 00:03:22,850\n那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做\n\n10\n00:03:23,991 --> 00:03:48,359\n都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應AtoPA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括\n\n11\n00:03:49,279 --> 00:04:12,913\n剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題\n\n12\n00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:32,904\n什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告\n\n13\n00:04:34,225 --> 00:04:48,887\n就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改\n\n14\n00:04:50,388 --> 00:05:13,353\n電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的\n\n15\n00:05:14,793 --> 00:05:32,678\n那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送\n\n16\n00:05:34,045 --> 00:05:43,014\n那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎\n\n17\n00:05:57,639 --> 00:06:06,283\n資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送\n\n18\n00:06:22,544 --> 00:06:28,101\n對是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的\n\n19\n00:06:29,975 --> 00:06:57,640\n所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任\n\n20\n00:06:58,901 --> 00:07:23,716\n請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部\n\n21\n00:07:26,997 --> 00:07:41,953\n曾主委這個跟你們的業務都有關對不對這些個別的行業這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果喊轉給他們那現在看起來所以你們喊轉給哪個單位\n\n22\n00:07:45,133 --> 00:08:04,401\n經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎\n\n23\n00:08:12,281 --> 00:08:26,087\n地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動\n\n24\n00:08:27,103 --> 00:08:42,849\n因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題\n\n25\n00:08:43,789 --> 00:09:06,599\n因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了\n\n26\n00:09:08,519 --> 00:09:24,224\n這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚\n\n27\n00:09:26,457 --> 00:09:38,074\n對我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度要有動作嘛\n\n28\n00:09:40,366 --> 00:09:54,215\n好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久\n\n29\n00:09:58,648 --> 00:10:26,562\n我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商\n\n30\n00:10:28,124 --> 00:10:51,915\n我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料\n\n31\n00:10:53,089 --> 00:10:59,830\n你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料\n\n32\n00:11:01,126 --> 00:11:26,280\n基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為\n\n33\n00:11:31,043 --> 00:11:39,813\n那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們他們怎麼做商業行銷\n\n34\n00:11:40,799 --> 00:12:00,574\n去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為\n\n35\n00:12:01,636 --> 00:12:27,783\n我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料\n\n36\n00:12:28,223 --> 00:12:34,987\n好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方\n\n37\n00:12:36,841 --> 00:12:58,087\n這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了\n\n38\n00:12:59,467 --> 00:13:20,052\n所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以\n\n39\n00:13:24,727 --> 00:13:49,059\n我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼\n\n40\n00:13:50,600 --> 00:14:10,335\n警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎\n\n41\n00:14:12,686 --> 00:14:36,068\n對應今天這些討論的個案長大都沒有提供都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料\n\n42\n00:14:37,069 --> 00:15:05,462\n那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告\n\n43\n00:15:06,442 --> 00:15:09,347\n到最後不好意思我很快再問一個問題剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會\n\n44\n00:15:18,309 --> 00:15:39,243\n謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法\n\n45\n00:15:42,825 --> 00:15:55,076\n那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做\n\n46\n00:16:02,957 --> 00:16:15,024\n跟委員報告首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明\n\n47\n00:16:21,668 --> 00:16:43,803\n我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久\n\n48\n00:16:45,053 --> 00:17:08,826\n因為這個一樣是沒有規範那我們會盡快來做審查不是因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況\n\n49\n00:17:12,452 --> 00:17:37,419\n是他就是在送連署書的時候他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書是嗎是我們會盡快來審查\n\n50\n00:17:40,938 --> 00:18:02,136\n處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案\n\n51\n00:18:03,917 --> 00:18:29,989\n影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算\n\n52\n00:18:31,674 --> 00:18:49,157\n他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢\n\n53\n00:18:52,029 --> 00:19:19,088\n這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚\n\n54\n00:19:20,049 --> 00:19:27,306\n接下來一定要罷免團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎\n\n55\n00:19:29,212 --> 00:19:49,449\n可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11420\t26126\t好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委你好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發\n39552\t50275\t這個個資外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送\n54059\t66993\t這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是\n69662\t82968\t除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送\n85096\t100632\t一般是沒有 技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方\n101684\t120669\t好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎\n121289\t145246\t對 沒錯 但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司 百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意\n146101\t151442\t我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用\n174348\t202850\t那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做\n203991\t228359\t都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括\n229279\t252913\t剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題\n257316\t272904\t什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告\n274225\t288887\t就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改\n290388\t313353\t電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的\n314793\t332678\t那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送\n334045\t343014\t那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎\n357639\t366283\t資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送\n382544\t388101\t對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的\n389975\t417640\t所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任\n418901\t443716\t請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部\n446997\t461953\t曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關 對不對這些個別的行業 這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果 喊轉給他們那現在看起來 所以你們喊轉給哪個單位\n465133\t484401\t經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎\n492281\t506087\t地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動\n507103\t522849\t因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題\n523789\t546599\t因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了\n548519\t564224\t這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚\n566457\t578074\t對 我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查 檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度 要有動作嘛\n580366\t594215\t好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久\n598648\t626562\t我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商\n628124\t651915\t我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料\n653089\t659830\t你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料\n661126\t686280\t基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為\n691043\t699813\t那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們 他們怎麼做商業行銷\n700799\t720574\t去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為\n721636\t747783\t我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料\n748223\t754987\t好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方\n756841\t778087\t這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了\n779467\t800052\t所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以\n804727\t829059\t我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼\n830600\t850335\t警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎\n852686\t876068\t對應今天這些討論的個案 長大都沒有提供 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說 你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料\n877069\t905462\t那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告\n906442\t909347\t到最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會\n918309\t939243\t謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法\n942825\t955076\t那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做\n962957\t975024\t跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理 已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明\n981668\t1003803\t我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久\n1005053\t1028826\t因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況\n1032452\t1057419\t是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查\n1060938\t1082136\t處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案\n1083917\t1109989\t影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算\n1111674\t1129157\t他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢\n1132029\t1159088\t這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚\n1160049\t1167306\t接下來一定要罷免 團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎\n1169212\t1189449\t可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要\n","txt":"好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委你好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發\n這個個資外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送\n這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是\n除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送\n一般是沒有 技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方\n好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎\n對 沒錯 但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司 百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意\n我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用\n那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做\n都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括\n剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題\n什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告\n就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改\n電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的\n那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送\n那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎\n資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送\n對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的\n所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任\n請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部\n曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關 對不對這些個別的行業 這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果 喊轉給他們那現在看起來 所以你們喊轉給哪個單位\n經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎\n地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動\n因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題\n因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了\n這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚\n對 我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查 檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度 要有動作嘛\n好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久\n我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商\n我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料\n你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料\n基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為\n那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們 他們怎麼做商業行銷\n去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為\n我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料\n好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方\n這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了\n所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以\n我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼\n警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎\n對應今天這些討論的個案 長大都沒有提供 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說 你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料\n那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告\n到最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會\n謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法\n那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做\n跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理 已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明\n我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久\n因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況\n是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查\n處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案\n影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算\n他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢\n這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚\n接下來一定要罷免 團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎\n可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.420 --> 00:26.126\n好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委你好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發\n\n00:39.552 --> 00:50.275\n這個個資外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送\n\n00:54.059 --> 01:06.993\n這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是\n\n01:09.662 --> 01:22.968\n除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送\n\n01:25.096 --> 01:40.632\n一般是沒有技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方\n\n01:41.684 --> 02:00.669\n好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎\n\n02:01.289 --> 02:25.246\n對沒錯但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意\n\n02:26.101 --> 02:31.442\n我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用\n\n02:54.348 --> 03:22.850\n那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做\n\n03:23.991 --> 03:48.359\n都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應AtoPA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括\n\n03:49.279 --> 04:12.913\n剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題\n\n04:17.316 --> 04:32.904\n什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告\n\n04:34.225 --> 04:48.887\n就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改\n\n04:50.388 --> 05:13.353\n電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的\n\n05:14.793 --> 05:32.678\n那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送\n\n05:34.045 --> 05:43.014\n那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎\n\n05:57.639 --> 06:06.283\n資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送\n\n06:22.544 --> 06:28.101\n對是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的\n\n06:29.975 --> 06:57.640\n所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任\n\n06:58.901 --> 07:23.716\n請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部\n\n07:26.997 --> 07:41.953\n曾主委這個跟你們的業務都有關對不對這些個別的行業這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果喊轉給他們那現在看起來所以你們喊轉給哪個單位\n\n07:45.133 --> 08:04.401\n經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎\n\n08:12.281 --> 08:26.087\n地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動\n\n08:27.103 --> 08:42.849\n因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題\n\n08:43.789 --> 09:06.599\n因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了\n\n09:08.519 --> 09:24.224\n這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚\n\n09:26.457 --> 09:38.074\n對我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度要有動作嘛\n\n09:40.366 --> 09:54.215\n好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久\n\n09:58.648 --> 10:26.562\n我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商\n\n10:28.124 --> 10:51.915\n我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料\n\n10:53.089 --> 10:59.830\n你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料\n\n11:01.126 --> 11:26.280\n基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為\n\n11:31.043 --> 11:39.813\n那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們他們怎麼做商業行銷\n\n11:40.799 --> 12:00.574\n去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為\n\n12:01.636 --> 12:27.783\n我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料\n\n12:28.223 --> 12:34.987\n好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方\n\n12:36.841 --> 12:58.087\n這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了\n\n12:59.467 --> 13:20.052\n所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以\n\n13:24.727 --> 13:49.059\n我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼\n\n13:50.600 --> 14:10.335\n警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎\n\n14:12.686 --> 14:36.068\n對應今天這些討論的個案長大都沒有提供都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料\n\n14:37.069 --> 15:05.462\n那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告\n\n15:06.442 --> 15:09.347\n到最後不好意思我很快再問一個問題剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會\n\n15:18.309 --> 15:39.243\n謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法\n\n15:42.825 --> 15:55.076\n那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做\n\n16:02.957 --> 16:15.024\n跟委員報告首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明\n\n16:21.668 --> 16:43.803\n我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久\n\n16:45.053 --> 17:08.826\n因為這個一樣是沒有規範那我們會盡快來做審查不是因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況\n\n17:12.452 --> 17:37.419\n是他就是在送連署書的時候他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書是嗎是我們會盡快來審查\n\n17:40.938 --> 18:02.136\n處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案\n\n18:03.917 --> 18:29.989\n影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算\n\n18:31.674 --> 18:49.157\n他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢\n\n18:52.029 --> 19:19.088\n這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚\n\n19:20.049 --> 19:27.306\n接下來一定要罷免團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎\n\n19:29.212 --> 19:49.449\n可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.42,"end":26.126,"text":"好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委你好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發"},{"start":39.552,"end":50.275,"text":"這個個資外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送"},{"start":54.059,"end":66.993,"text":"這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是"},{"start":69.662,"end":82.968,"text":"除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送"},{"start":85.096,"end":100.632,"text":"一般是沒有 技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方"},{"start":101.684,"end":120.669,"text":"好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎"},{"start":121.289,"end":145.246,"text":"對 沒錯 但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司 百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意"},{"start":146.101,"end":151.442,"text":"我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用"},{"start":174.348,"end":202.85,"text":"那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做"},{"start":203.991,"end":228.359,"text":"都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括"},{"start":229.279,"end":252.913,"text":"剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題"},{"start":257.316,"end":272.904,"text":"什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告"},{"start":274.225,"end":288.887,"text":"就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改"},{"start":290.388,"end":313.353,"text":"電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的"},{"start":314.793,"end":332.678,"text":"那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送"},{"start":334.045,"end":343.014,"text":"那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎"},{"start":357.639,"end":366.283,"text":"資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送"},{"start":382.544,"end":388.101,"text":"對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的"},{"start":389.975,"end":417.64,"text":"所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任"},{"start":418.901,"end":443.716,"text":"請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部"},{"start":446.997,"end":461.953,"text":"曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關 對不對這些個別的行業 這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果 喊轉給他們那現在看起來 所以你們喊轉給哪個單位"},{"start":465.133,"end":484.401,"text":"經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎"},{"start":492.281,"end":506.087,"text":"地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動"},{"start":507.103,"end":522.849,"text":"因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題"},{"start":523.789,"end":546.599,"text":"因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了"},{"start":548.519,"end":564.224,"text":"這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚"},{"start":566.457,"end":578.074,"text":"對 我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查 檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度 要有動作嘛"},{"start":580.366,"end":594.215,"text":"好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久"},{"start":598.648,"end":626.562,"text":"我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商"},{"start":628.124,"end":651.915,"text":"我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料"},{"start":653.089,"end":659.83,"text":"你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料"},{"start":661.126,"end":686.28,"text":"基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為"},{"start":691.043,"end":699.813,"text":"那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們 他們怎麼做商業行銷"},{"start":700.799,"end":720.574,"text":"去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為"},{"start":721.636,"end":747.783,"text":"我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料"},{"start":748.223,"end":754.987,"text":"好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方"},{"start":756.841,"end":778.087,"text":"這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了"},{"start":779.467,"end":800.052,"text":"所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以"},{"start":804.727,"end":829.059,"text":"我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼"},{"start":830.6,"end":850.335,"text":"警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎"},{"start":852.686,"end":876.068,"text":"對應今天這些討論的個案 長大都沒有提供 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說 你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料"},{"start":877.069,"end":905.462,"text":"那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告"},{"start":906.442,"end":909.347,"text":"到最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會"},{"start":918.309,"end":939.243,"text":"謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法"},{"start":942.825,"end":955.076,"text":"那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做"},{"start":962.957,"end":975.024,"text":"跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理 已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明"},{"start":981.668,"end":1003.803,"text":"我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久"},{"start":1005.053,"end":1028.826,"text":"因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況"},{"start":1032.452,"end":1057.419,"text":"是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查"},{"start":1060.938,"end":1082.136,"text":"處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案"},{"start":1083.917,"end":1109.989,"text":"影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算"},{"start":1111.674,"end":1129.157,"text":"他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢"},{"start":1132.029,"end":1159.088,"text":"這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚"},{"start":1160.049,"end":1167.306,"text":"接下來一定要罷免 團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎"},{"start":1169.212,"end":1189.449,"text":"可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時42分）主席好。首先先請NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：代理主委。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有中華電信林副總。"],["主席：中華電信。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委你好。我想這次因為滿多民眾有收到罷團的簡訊，引發個資外洩的爭議，我當然知道其實NCC督導的是電信業者，所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事LBS服務的簡訊發送，經過NCC的調查，看起來現在並不是由中華電信或三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送。我想請教一個問題，除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的簡訊發送之外，一般來說，簡訊代理商他們可不可以做LBS的簡訊發送？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一般是沒有，技術上一定是電信公司發送，因為基地台的資訊在電信公司，所以簡訊代發業者是沒有辦法發送LBS，他只是委託三大電信公司去發送，他是發送方。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，也就是說，簡訊代理商原則上是沒有這樣的權限、技術可以直接去做LBS的發送，就算是有這個需求，他也必須透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯，但是從另外的層面來看，電信公司推出這個LBS服務，他必須取得用戶的同意，同意之後，電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作，你到百貨公司，百貨公司知道你的地點所在，他就發給你，但前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做目的外的利用，用戶要同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。其實我有準備，麻煩先跳到下一個PPT。我們就以中華電信的例子來講，中華電信服務契約第三十七條裡面就有規定，中華電信對於用戶的個人資料，如果有經過用戶事先同意的話，它才可以做蒐集目的以外的利用。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：這也是今天在討論的，但是中華電信的服務契約看起來其實並沒有寫得那麼清楚，到底所謂的可以同意做蒐集目的以外的利用，這個利用的範圍到哪裡？這也是今天很多委員都有在問的，它到底是只能做商業的行銷？還是包含連政治行銷也可以在內？又或是日後有很多所謂的活動行銷，是不是都可以被認定為屬於蒐集目的以外的利用？請問NCC對這個看法是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，商業使用（LBS）其實都是屬於一種目的外的使用，我們講商業簡訊，商業其實是一個通稱，它的英文是對應A2P，A是advertisement，就是廣告，廣告係指包括商業用途，也包括早上有提到的選罷法宣傳也算是一種另類的廣告，這邊應該是還在範圍內。至於詳細的個別公司在真正操作上，目的外的使用情境，我們是不是可以請中華電信來補充一下？"],["翁委員曉玲：主委，我這邊要提醒，如果你認為發這個廣告是屬於一個選舉廣告的話，這可能會涉及選罷法的問題，什麼時候可以發、什麼時候不能發在我們的選罷法裡面有清楚的規定。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為所謂廣告的使用不能做這麼廣義的解釋，而且如果以之前我們所看到的很多案例，基本上都是奠定在商業行銷的廣告，就是純商業的廣告，而不是涵蓋到其他各類行銷活動的廣告。如果是這樣的話，變成你們可能從相關的辦法，或是接下來要要求三大電信業者都要修改電信服務契約，不能夠這麼空泛。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員報告，回到母法電信管理法第四條，電信的效果由發送人負起責任，如果今天發送方是簡訊代發業者的企客，它發送的政治宣導廣告，法律上的責任是他要負責，這跟電信公司無關，電信公司在這方面是免責的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以以這個案例來講，你們認為這完全是簡訊代理商自己輸入用戶的門號？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發，簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信發送，三大電信公司這一段是沒問題的。"],["翁委員曉玲：再透過三大電信來發送？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有，它才有辦法發送，但是發送源頭端是簡訊代發業者的企客提供的。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是如果這樣的話，對於三大電信業者而言，它仍然是發送端，最後讓簡訊出去的還是三大電信業者，不是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：資訊來源是最源頭端，一般民眾其實是可以選擇不要接受商業簡訊的權利，隨時都可以可以向三大電信公司申請退出或加入。"],["翁委員曉玲：我聽不太懂主委說的意思。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是說一般民眾……"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上，現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡提供了一份名單，交給中華電信去發送，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，是這樣沒錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是這樣子嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：但你又說發送人不是中華電信，明明中華電信就是實際發送的啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所有東西一定是經過電信網路發送出去，但是我們說發送人是最源頭端，今天我以個人對個人，發送給某甲，但我為什麼知道某甲的行動電話號碼，那是我要負責任，是我偷拿到的還是怎麼樣，是我要負責任！今天這個案子的源頭端是簡訊代發業者的客戶，就是某行銷公司所掌握的，而他怎麼掌握，他要負相關的法律責任，他的個資是怎麼取得的？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請問現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡訊代理商目前是資訊服務業，資訊服務業有相關的主管機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：哪一個主管機關？主管機關是數發部嗎？還是經濟部？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以前是經濟部，現在應該是……分工方面我還要再確認，早期是工業局，現在可能是數位部。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委，這個跟你們業務都有關。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，我……"],["翁委員曉玲：這些跟電信業者有關的個別行業的主管機關，你們也要了解清楚嘛！不能東推西推。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：上禮拜五已經把我們的調查結果函轉給他們了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們函轉給哪個單位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡訊代發業者的部分函轉給數位部，然後行銷工作的部分函轉給經濟部。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以這兩個單位基本上應該要落實、調查嘛！到底個資是從哪裡掌握的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，它可以調查，一般民眾也可以依據個資法自行維護權益來告發。"],["翁委員曉玲：來告發？請問法務部鄭部長，現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎？地檢署有收到了嗎？你們有依職權調查了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是還沒有收到，如果有告訴、告發，我們就依法來處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以沒有告訴、告發的話，你們完全都不動？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個有很多專業的問題，很明顯的要我們……因為告訴、告發，或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑，檢察官就會依據第二百二十八條……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎？這就很明顯是有個資外洩的問題，剛剛陳主委這邊講了嘛，基本上簡訊代理商擁有的用戶資料，按照中華電信的說法，你們都要去識別化，不能有任何辨認的可能，可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面，所以很明顯的就一定是簡訊代理商，要不然就是企業用戶，他們掌握了個資，而且是很清楚的個資，才有辦法交由簡訊代理商，然後再交由中華電信來發送，我覺得這個看起來犯罪嫌疑、犯罪事實，比去抓偽造連署還要清楚！我希望法務部能夠扛起責任，好不好？該調查就去調查，檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度、要有動作嘛！謝謝部長，我想你們應該是還沒動作，我提醒你們，希望你們回去能趕快依職權啟動調查，謝謝，請部長先回座。","另外我想要請教中華電信，一般來說，你們跟簡訊代理商簽約時間是多久？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們跟簡訊代理商簽約大概是一到兩年，我們也會隨時看簡訊代理商有沒有依照合約履行相關義務。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商，時間到了之後，你們會把這些資料全部收回、全部銷毀嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們不會提供資料？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商。"],["翁委員曉玲：我聽不太懂，可是你們的LBS服務不就是提供所謂去識別化的個資，然後把這些訊息提供給企業用戶？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們行政調查的結果，三大電信沒有針對這類案子提供LBS服務，沒有！那是媒體報導。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果三大電信現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後，這些資料你們是怎樣提供給相關廠商、企業用戶？因為有很多行銷公司需要這些資料啊！"],["林執行副總經理文智：基本上先跟委員報告，去識別化的資料就是一個資訊，它不會再涉及個資。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在問很簡單的問題，就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約，一次是簽幾年？契約期間屆滿之後，你們會把所有資料再收回嗎？還是不會收回？還是這些廠商就擁有這些所有資料？"],["林執行副總經理文智：還是要跟委員報告，我們沒有交付資料的行為。"],["翁委員曉玲：這些去識別化的資料不就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷、商業廣告嗎？你不提供資料給他們，他們怎麼做商業行銷？"],["林執行副總經理文智：去識別化之後的資料是屬於資訊資料的處理應用，這個部分的處理應用，我們也會跟委託方就這個部分做相關的對應處理，但是在中華電信公司本身，不會有任何交付個資資料的行為。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料，我沒有說你交付個資，剛剛副總也講了，對不對？"],["林執行副總經理文智：去識別化的資料在我們的系統裡面，這個部分的處理是屬於輪廓性資料的分析，所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話，那都是屬於輪廓性的資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，現在就講交付輪廓性的資料，你們跟委託方一次簽約是幾年？"],["林執行副總經理文智：這個可能跟個別廠商有不同情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：可能一到兩年或兩到三年，不管！"],["林執行副總經理文智：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：契約屆滿之後，你們交出去的輪廓性資料，你們會收回嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方委託之後所得到的結果，我們不會再去收回，因為他本身就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我覺得這也是一個問題，因為現在科技技術日新月異，你們現在交出去的輪廓性資料，他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原，或是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性這樣的作用、服務。所以我認為中華電信，還有NCC可能也要注意，就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者，在提供這些去識別化的資料，是不是期間到了之後，這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀，否則現在講難聽一點，這些簡訊代理商可能拿到了資料，他手上有了一大堆的資料，然後期間屆滿了之後，他也不需要再跟代理商有什麼……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，其實代理商手上不會有中三大電信公司提供的個人資料，去識別化的部分，基本上也不會提供他，因為111年憲判字第13號的解釋上，它是要從嚴來認定的，這個部分我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之，所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎。對應今天這些討論的個案，三大電信都沒有把資料提供給發送端，不管是行銷公司或什麼都沒有提供，至於LBS是不會涉及到個資的。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委，我們現在這邊講的問題好像不在同一個層次上面。你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料，我這裡不是談你們交付個資，我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料，剛剛按照副總的說法，所謂輪廓性的資料，既然是輪廓性的資料的話，對於廠商來講，他還是有利可圖，他才會去做相關的行銷服務，這部分資料，你們後續怎麼處理？我希望你們能夠再提供更精簡的一份報告讓我知道。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們給書面報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後不好意思，我很快再問一個問題，再讓我講2分鐘。","接下來請中選會。"],["蔡處長金誥：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝主委跟副總，可以先回座。我想請教有關最近有罷團團體提出領銜人的更換作業，因為現在中選會回答選罷法沒有授權可定辦法，所以就不去制定相關遞補領銜人的作業辦法，當然，你們如果從依法的角度來講，你們是沒有授權明確，所以你們不定辦法。可是事實上中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定，也定了很多的規則，事實上你們可以針對遞補領銜人發布一個SOP的規則，為什麼你們不做？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：跟委員報告，首先說明一下，我們在選罷法確實沒有這樣的授權，但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理，已經有發函跟罷團這邊做說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚，因為你們回函裡面其實並不清楚，接下來我要問的就是，如果候補領銜人遞補為領銜人的這個程序，基本上中選會預估審查要幾天？也就是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的同意書，送到中選會，中選會要審查多久？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：因為這個也一樣是沒有規範，我們會儘快來做審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是，你們這個要定得很清楚。否則按照現在你們公文的說法，也就是如果以罷免吳思瑤的這個案子為例，6月7號之前，所有的二階連署書要送達，那麼同時更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成，這可能會有互相衝突的情況。"],["陳副處長宗蔚：他就是在送連署書的時候，必須要完成更換，因為現在認定的還是……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果6月6日之前他送更換同意書，你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：這個部分我們會儘快來做審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：所謂儘快，24小時之內要完成，這樣的話，人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二階的連署書，是嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：是，我們會儘快來審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：處長，你講清楚，麻煩您可以確定一下，你所謂儘快是24小時之內嘛，這樣的話才能夠確保大家在6月7號之前，把二階的連署書可以送達，因為你們要查核，查核要完成，到底能不能通過？因為現在這個問題，就在於如果是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定，會不會影響到後續的罷免案、影響到後續二階連署人的名冊？還是你們分開處理？反正我先送更換同意書，然後二階的連署書，我達標了，我也先送。如果領銜人萬一審查不過的話，當然可能後面就不論；但是如果領銜人的部分通過的話，就是全部都照算。"],["陳副處長宗蔚：他必須在送連署書的時候，已經完成程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，這就是問題點，6月7號是他的deadline，你並沒有講這罷免更換領銜人的同意書是什麼時候要送達，所以我就講一個極端的例子，他6月6號送呢？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：這部分我們就是儘快來審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：按照你們公文的意思，他6月6號送都可以喔！所以你們要儘速24小時之內就要審查完成。這個部分，我希望中選會是不是今天可以給我一個清楚的答復，好不好？因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項，如果是你們沒有講清楚，接下來人家罷免團體不知道怎麼做，可以今天下班之前給我一個回復嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：可以再一點時間嗎？可不可以明天再來？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就明天，明天要給我一個清楚的回復，好不好？這真的是影響到這麼多罷免人，還有連署人的權益，這行政行為必須內容要明確，好不好？那麼希望處長，明天中午12點之前給我一個回復，好，謝謝。"],["主席：那就麻煩要照時間回復。中選會在法制上面設計是獨立機關，不是執政黨的啦啦隊，所以要麻煩秉公處理，因為我知道翁委員在問什麼問題。另外剛剛翁委員有麻煩中華電信要補資料，就麻煩中華電信幾天內補給你？"],["翁委員曉玲：星期五。"],["主席：好，中華電信就麻煩星期五的時候補一下資料。另外因為剛剛翁委員有提到什麼叫做輪廓性資料，請說明一下這個部分，我想翁委員應該是在問這個問題，輪廓性資料的定義是什麼？我剛剛在那邊聽很久也聽不懂，所以可能要麻煩中華電信能夠跟翁委員說明這一塊，謝謝。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}}