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\"經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 702.126, \"end\": 702.326, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 702.326, \"end\": 702.446, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 702.446, \"end\": 702.566, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 702.566, \"end\": 702.766, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 702.766, \"end\": 703.326, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 703.326, \"end\": 704.207, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 704.207, \"end\": 704.327, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 704.327, \"end\": 704.427, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 704.427, \"end\": 704.767, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"尾\", \"start\": 704.767, \"end\": 705.627, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 722.833, \"end\": 723.113, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"禁\", \"start\": 723.113, \"end\": 723.333, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 723.333, \"end\": 723.614, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"虐\", \"start\": 723.614, \"end\": 725.294, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 725.294, \"end\": 725.514, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"耶\", \"start\": 725.514, \"end\": 726.995, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 726.995, \"end\": 727.495, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 727.495, \"end\": 727.655, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 727.655, \"end\": 728.335, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 728.335, \"end\": 728.455, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 728.455, \"end\": 728.915, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 728.915, \"end\": 729.275, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 729.275, \"end\": 729.456, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 729.456, \"end\": 729.656, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"虐\", \"start\": 729.656, \"end\": 729.676, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"殺\"}]}, {\"start\": 732.11, \"end\": 753.176, \"text\": \"結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 732.11, \"end\": 732.33, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 732.33, \"end\": 732.47, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 732.47, \"end\": 732.59, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 732.59, \"end\": 732.93, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 732.93, \"end\": 733.13, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 733.13, \"end\": 734.711, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 734.711, \"end\": 734.811, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 734.811, \"end\": 734.911, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 734.911, \"end\": 735.031, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 735.031, \"end\": 735.131, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 735.131, \"end\": 735.231, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 735.231, \"end\": 736.311, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 736.311, \"end\": 736.471, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 736.471, \"end\": 736.611, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 736.611, \"end\": 736.771, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 736.771, \"end\": 736.971, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 736.971, \"end\": 737.151, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 737.151, \"end\": 737.331, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 737.331, \"end\": 737.552, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 737.552, \"end\": 739.692, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 739.692, \"end\": 739.792, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 739.792, \"end\": 739.972, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 739.972, \"end\": 740.172, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"虐\", \"start\": 740.172, \"end\": 740.372, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 740.372, \"end\": 740.492, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 740.492, \"end\": 740.692, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 740.692, \"end\": 740.932, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 740.932, \"end\": 741.113, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 741.113, \"end\": 741.373, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 741.373, \"end\": 741.553, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 741.553, \"end\": 742.353, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", 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\"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 744.614, \"end\": 744.874, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 744.874, \"end\": 744.954, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 744.954, \"end\": 745.174, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 745.174, \"end\": 746.134, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 746.134, \"end\": 746.274, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 746.274, \"end\": 746.334, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 746.334, \"end\": 747.034, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 747.034, \"end\": 747.854, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 747.854, \"end\": 748.955, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"媽\"}, {\"word\": \"媽\"}, {\"word\": \"臨\"}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 748.955, \"end\": 749.295, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"拖\", \"start\": 749.295, \"end\": 749.535, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"旁\", \"start\": 749.535, \"end\": 749.875, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 749.875, \"end\": 749.995, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 749.995, \"end\": 750.275, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 750.275, \"end\": 750.355, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 750.355, \"end\": 750.695, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 750.695, \"end\": 751.215, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 751.215, \"end\": 751.375, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 751.375, \"end\": 751.515, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"媽\"}, {\"word\": \"媽\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 751.515, \"end\": 751.876, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 751.876, \"end\": 751.956, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 751.956, \"end\": 752.156, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 752.156, \"end\": 752.296, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 752.296, \"end\": 752.416, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 752.416, \"end\": 752.556, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 752.556, \"end\": 752.996, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 752.996, \"end\": 753.156, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 753.156, \"end\": 753.176, \"score\": 0.357}]}, {\"start\": 754.461, \"end\": 776.647, \"text\": \"我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 754.461, \"end\": 754.701, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 754.701, \"end\": 755.681, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 755.681, \"end\": 755.861, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 755.861, \"end\": 756.282, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 756.282, \"end\": 756.802, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": 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840.642, \"end\": 840.662, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,679 --> 00:00:12,182\n主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好\n\n2\n00:00:22,895 --> 00:00:42,892\n大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑且不得假釋\n\n3\n00:00:44,295 --> 00:01:07,973\n但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍\n\n4\n00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:28,114\n跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分\n\n5\n00:01:29,815 --> 00:01:54,889\n我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議\n\n6\n00:01:55,709 --> 00:02:18,319\n那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到\n\n7\n00:02:19,439 --> 00:02:34,297\n殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長\n\n8\n00:02:37,453 --> 00:03:03,987\n雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下\n\n9\n00:03:05,103 --> 00:03:19,905\n法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎是不應該的嗎不是吧\n\n10\n00:03:21,189 --> 00:03:50,008\n大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個我們就是沒有關係啊部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好\n\n11\n00:03:51,530 --> 00:04:01,702\n凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力\n\n12\n00:04:04,810 --> 00:04:23,858\n那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑\n\n13\n00:04:25,778 --> 00:04:39,396\n事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑\n\n14\n00:04:40,337 --> 00:04:53,888\n來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童\n\n15\n00:05:00,293 --> 00:05:20,884\n殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來\n\n16\n00:05:21,525 --> 00:05:38,745\n這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛\n\n17\n00:05:39,326 --> 00:06:04,517\n那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有那這個因為個案我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列陵列而至死以至到甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個\n\n18\n00:06:06,378 --> 00:06:26,178\n這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是\n\n19\n00:06:27,832 --> 00:06:51,067\n這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份\n\n20\n00:06:52,162 --> 00:07:16,987\n我們已經報給行政委行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中\n\n21\n00:07:18,067 --> 00:07:45,066\n那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦我跟你講我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就\n\n22\n00:07:46,311 --> 00:08:09,710\n就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題剛才點名主席嘛\n\n23\n00:08:10,478 --> 00:08:32,648\n我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我\n\n24\n00:08:33,268 --> 00:08:36,913\n我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛\n\n25\n00:08:50,011 --> 00:09:07,856\n因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以\n\n26\n00:09:08,536 --> 00:09:26,355\n後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠\n\n27\n00:09:28,257 --> 00:09:40,250\n思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條\n\n28\n00:09:42,711 --> 00:09:59,868\n那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑\n\n29\n00:10:00,689 --> 00:10:22,957\n所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些\n\n30\n00:10:25,779 --> 00:10:34,019\n那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是\n\n31\n00:10:34,929 --> 00:10:58,709\n我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在\n\n32\n00:10:59,509 --> 00:11:24,461\n怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講\n\n33\n00:11:28,883 --> 00:11:41,146\n部長我先謝謝你啦因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動\n\n34\n00:11:42,126 --> 00:12:09,676\n經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺\n\n35\n00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:33,176\n結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了\n\n36\n00:12:34,461 --> 00:12:56,647\n我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的\n\n37\n00:12:57,347 --> 00:13:15,907\n第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難\n\n38\n00:13:17,208 --> 00:13:37,451\n也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的\n\n39\n00:13:38,727 --> 00:14:00,662\n這一點喔是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長謝謝您\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9679\t12182\t主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好\n22895\t42892\t大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛 民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋\n44295\t67973\t但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍\n70239\t88114\t跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分\n89815\t114889\t我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議\n115709\t138319\t那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到\n139439\t154297\t殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長\n157453\t183987\t雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下\n185103\t199905\t法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎 是不應該的嗎不是吧\n201189\t230008\t大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好\n231530\t241702\t凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力\n244810\t263858\t那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑\n265778\t279396\t事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑\n280337\t293888\t來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童\n300293\t320884\t殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來\n321525\t338745\t這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛\n339326\t364517\t那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個\n366378\t386178\t這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是\n387832\t411067\t這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份\n412162\t436987\t我們已經報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中\n438067\t465066\t那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有 這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦 我跟你講 我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的 凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就\n466311\t489710\t就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛\n490478\t512648\t我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我\n513268\t516913\t我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛\n530011\t547856\t因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以\n548536\t566355\t後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠\n568257\t580250\t思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條\n582711\t599868\t那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑\n600689\t622957\t所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些\n625779\t634019\t那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是\n634929\t658709\t我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在\n659509\t684461\t怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講\n688883\t701146\t部長我先謝謝你啦 因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動\n702126\t729676\t經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺\n732110\t753176\t結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了\n754461\t776647\t我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的\n777347\t795907\t第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難\n797208\t817451\t也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的\n818727\t840662\t這一點喔 是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長 謝謝您\n","txt":"主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好\n大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛 民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋\n但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍\n跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分\n我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議\n那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到\n殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長\n雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下\n法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎 是不應該的嗎不是吧\n大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好\n凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力\n那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑\n事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑\n來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童\n殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來\n這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛\n那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個\n這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是\n這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份\n我們已經報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中\n那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有 這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦 我跟你講 我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的 凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就\n就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛\n我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我\n我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛\n因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以\n後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠\n思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條\n那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑\n所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些\n那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是\n我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在\n怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講\n部長我先謝謝你啦 因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動\n經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺\n結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了\n我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的\n第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難\n也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的\n這一點喔 是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長 謝謝您\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.679 --> 00:12.182\n主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好\n\n00:22.895 --> 00:42.892\n大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑且不得假釋\n\n00:44.295 --> 01:07.973\n但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍\n\n01:10.239 --> 01:28.114\n跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分\n\n01:29.815 --> 01:54.889\n我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議\n\n01:55.709 --> 02:18.319\n那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到\n\n02:19.439 --> 02:34.297\n殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長\n\n02:37.453 --> 03:03.987\n雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下\n\n03:05.103 --> 03:19.905\n法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎是不應該的嗎不是吧\n\n03:21.189 --> 03:50.008\n大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個我們就是沒有關係啊部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好\n\n03:51.530 --> 04:01.702\n凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力\n\n04:04.810 --> 04:23.858\n那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑\n\n04:25.778 --> 04:39.396\n事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑\n\n04:40.337 --> 04:53.888\n來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童\n\n05:00.293 --> 05:20.884\n殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來\n\n05:21.525 --> 05:38.745\n這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛\n\n05:39.326 --> 06:04.517\n那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有那這個因為個案我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列陵列而至死以至到甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個\n\n06:06.378 --> 06:26.178\n這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是\n\n06:27.832 --> 06:51.067\n這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份\n\n06:52.162 --> 07:16.987\n我們已經報給行政委行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中\n\n07:18.067 --> 07:45.066\n那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦我跟你講我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就\n\n07:46.311 --> 08:09.710\n就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題剛才點名主席嘛\n\n08:10.478 --> 08:32.648\n我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我\n\n08:33.268 --> 08:36.913\n我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛\n\n08:50.011 --> 09:07.856\n因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以\n\n09:08.536 --> 09:26.355\n後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠\n\n09:28.257 --> 09:40.250\n思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條\n\n09:42.711 --> 09:59.868\n那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑\n\n10:00.689 --> 10:22.957\n所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些\n\n10:25.779 --> 10:34.019\n那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是\n\n10:34.929 --> 10:58.709\n我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在\n\n10:59.509 --> 11:24.461\n怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講\n\n11:28.883 --> 11:41.146\n部長我先謝謝你啦因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動\n\n11:42.126 --> 12:09.676\n經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺\n\n12:12.110 --> 12:33.176\n結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了\n\n12:34.461 --> 12:56.647\n我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的\n\n12:57.347 --> 13:15.907\n第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難\n\n13:17.208 --> 13:37.451\n也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的\n\n13:38.727 --> 14:00.662\n這一點喔是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長謝謝您\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.679,"end":12.182,"text":"主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好"},{"start":22.895,"end":42.892,"text":"大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛 民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋"},{"start":44.295,"end":67.973,"text":"但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍"},{"start":70.239,"end":88.114,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分"},{"start":89.815,"end":114.889,"text":"我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議"},{"start":115.709,"end":138.319,"text":"那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到"},{"start":139.439,"end":154.297,"text":"殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長"},{"start":157.453,"end":183.987,"text":"雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下"},{"start":185.103,"end":199.905,"text":"法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎 是不應該的嗎不是吧"},{"start":201.189,"end":230.008,"text":"大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好"},{"start":231.53,"end":241.702,"text":"凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力"},{"start":244.81,"end":263.858,"text":"那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑"},{"start":265.778,"end":279.396,"text":"事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑"},{"start":280.337,"end":293.888,"text":"來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童"},{"start":300.293,"end":320.884,"text":"殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":321.525,"end":338.745,"text":"這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛"},{"start":339.326,"end":364.517,"text":"那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個"},{"start":366.378,"end":386.178,"text":"這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是"},{"start":387.832,"end":411.067,"text":"這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份"},{"start":412.162,"end":436.987,"text":"我們已經報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中"},{"start":438.067,"end":465.066,"text":"那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有 這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦 我跟你講 我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的 凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就"},{"start":466.311,"end":489.71,"text":"就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛"},{"start":490.478,"end":512.648,"text":"我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我"},{"start":513.268,"end":516.913,"text":"我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛"},{"start":530.011,"end":547.856,"text":"因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以"},{"start":548.536,"end":566.355,"text":"後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠"},{"start":568.257,"end":580.25,"text":"思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條"},{"start":582.711,"end":599.868,"text":"那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑"},{"start":600.689,"end":622.957,"text":"所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些"},{"start":625.779,"end":634.019,"text":"那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是"},{"start":634.929,"end":658.709,"text":"我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在"},{"start":659.509,"end":684.461,"text":"怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講"},{"start":688.883,"end":701.146,"text":"部長我先謝謝你啦 因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動"},{"start":702.126,"end":729.676,"text":"經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺"},{"start":732.11,"end":753.176,"text":"結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了"},{"start":754.461,"end":776.647,"text":"我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的"},{"start":777.347,"end":795.907,"text":"第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難"},{"start":797.208,"end":817.451,"text":"也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的"},{"start":818.727,"end":840.662,"text":"這一點喔 是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長 謝謝您"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時3分）主席，有請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。大家知道剴剴案造成大家心非常痛，民怨也沸騰，13位網友在公共政策平臺提議要提高虐童者的刑責，希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑，且不得假釋。但是法務部卻回應不予採納，但我也看到新聞提到部長今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤、天理難容、零容忍，更周延的法律保護，法務部仍在研議中。我想請問到底是不採納，還是零容忍？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想剴剴案有關的兒少保護，我們一定要非常的落實，而且要非常完備，尤其虐殺，這種是人神共憤、天理難容，絕對是零容忍，這部分在法制上，我們現在也在檢討哪些是可以再努力的地方，因為此類讓全民痛心以及像兒童被虐殺的這些案件，我們絕對不能容許再有這樣發生，所以這部分我們在法制上會再做得更周延，請給我們一些時間，會儘快來做一個處理，目前我們是在追、在研議。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外假釋的部分，我們有提針對殺人或殺人未遂被判10年以上，這種是不得假釋。像虐童的凌虐部分，事實上，有時候有些個案可能會有單純的凌虐之加重結果犯；有些可能會到殺人的部分，殺人部分就是根據刑法第二百七十一條，處死刑、無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑，有關這部分是不是可以再更周延？我們現在也在研議中。"],["羅委員智強：好，部長，雖然你剛剛的回答，我也沒有很滿意啦！但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了。我想問法務部第一時間回應不予採納是什麼意思？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那部分，是就法律著重在一個現況的說明，我想任何法律都要做滾動式的檢視跟檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長提醒一下，法務部跟人民所謂的社會，尤其是治安跟司法保護的情感是密切相關。13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎？是不應該的嗎？不是吧！大家是對所謂虐童致死的事情感到很痛心，才會有這麼多網友來做公共政策的提案，那法務部一盆冷水潑過去，不予採納。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是……"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，部長，你剛剛的回答，已經比原來我看到的冷冷冰冰四個字要有溫度的多，所以我才說雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意，但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說「不予採納」的要好。剴剴遭保母姐妹凌虐致死，中間很多細節真的讓人髮指，連臺大醫師都嘆說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力，法官雖然認為保母姐妹倆以虐取樂、危害甚鉅，但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴，而這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛，法官也不能判死，所以一審是判保母姐妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑。事實上，本席跟國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責，來修正刑法第二百八十六條，對於虐童凌虐致死者，最高可以判處死刑，來符合罪刑相當的原則；也要來修刑法第七十七條，觸犯第二百八十六條者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋，這都是我們現在的提案，其中最重要是把所謂的死刑納為判刑的選項之一，來發揮對所謂殘暴虐童致死行為的遏止。","我想請教部長，既然部長剛剛也已經表達了同理心，你甚至也說對這種惡行要零容忍，我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法，甚至來請行政院提出院版，大概什麼時候可以提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在這個條文的部分，我們在研議中，我想委員提到，就是凌虐致死者，判處死刑這個選項，我倒是就有一個不同的思考，如果凌虐一開始就是不違反他的本意，這就是間接故意，根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛！"],["羅委員智強：那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，因為我就個案的證據，我沒辦法去做證據的蒐集跟認定，但是態樣是從一般凌虐致重傷、致死，以致到私行拘禁凌虐而致死，甚至到殺人，這些不同態樣的分布，我想當然個案會分布在幾個區塊裡面，我們在檢討，的確是剴剴命案令我們非常地痛心、非常地難過，我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生，所以在法制上，我們是希望能夠更加完備、更加充分的保護這些很可憐的人，尤其是未滿18歲及未滿7歲的兒童跟少年，這是讓我們非常地痛心，所以這部分法務部是有在研議要更能夠落實、充分保護這些兒童。剛剛委員關心的假釋部分，我們已經提殺人未遂10年以上不得假釋之重大暴力的部分，我們已經提報給行政院，行政院也開了兩次審查，如果還有再更不足的，我們會再研議、檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟部長說，做一個簡單的小結。事實上，在剴剴案發生的時候，立法院一共有15個修法提案，其中有10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中，剛剛我其實有點遺憾，你雖然提了其他一些所謂法律條文適用的問題，但本質上，你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我並沒有，如果說凌虐已經到達殺人的……有些凌虐未必故意，我想主席很清楚，單純凌虐致死現在是無期徒刑，但是我認為如果凌虐，他一開始就認為死了沒關係，這種更加可惡，這個已經進入到第二百七十一條的問題，甚至牽涉兒少法第一百十五條，加重二分之一，我們覺得這樣是不是才夠？我們也是覺得是不是可以更重？"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，我很快下一個結論，我待會也可以聽聽主席的意見沒有問題，你剛才有點名主席。我要跟你講，你剛剛跟我講法條有殺人罪可以用，所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童致死……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都可以討論。"],["羅委員智強：所以你在這部分，你的修法態度是保留的、保守的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有，委員你也要聽我講，我覺得凌虐這部分，如果真的有殺人的故意、直接殺人，我對兒童的保護，我會比現在的第兩百七十一條更重，會更重。我們對於他的選項，甚至可以考慮無期或者直接到死刑。"],["羅委員智強：我只講一個事實性的結果，事實性的結果是你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個個案，我沒有辦法討論……"],["羅委員智強：你看又回到個案。我不知道，我請我們主席開示，你剛剛點名主席，我不讓主席講講話，我覺得也對主席不好意思。"],["主席：法務部的意思我大概有看過，法務部是從立法技術面去思考，因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡，他不是殺人故意，後面的死亡有點類似是過失致死的概念，所以法務部認為凌虐是凌虐行為，然後再造成過失致死，所以他們認為不宜用殺人去認定，或是加高到死刑。但是我也請法務部能夠思考幾個點：第一個，當然現在人民有這種需求，我們其實是可以多溝通。我知道法務部的論述，在立法紀錄上面確實也有採取這樣的學說。第二個，第三百二十八條強盜致死，後面的致死也是屬於過失，但是第三百二十八條是有死刑，所以我國法制上面，不是只有殺人罪有死刑，而是我國法制本來就有加重結果犯，後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑，所以這兩個東西是一樣的，就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個，其實結構上面是類似，為什麼強盜致死我國法制上面有死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我知道。"],["主席：對、對、對，所以我就說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個立法技術的問題，但是我們認為凌虐如果有殺人，或者主席講加重結果犯，像強盜後性侵的就加重結果犯，在第二百二十一條等等，那些我們可以再來做一個……但是我想凌虐人致死，這個就是很可惡的……"],["主席：但是我們拜託法務部，不要採的就是「我不要」或是拒絕溝通，就是讓大家來溝通嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在就在溝通，而且我們是回應整個……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長銘謙：民意的意見，我想我們非常重視民眾的聲音，我想我們有共同目標，法務部是跟我們的民意站在一起的，我們是沒辦法去容忍這種剴剴命案，怎麼會有這種人神共憤的事情，我沒辦法去容忍，所以在立法上，我們是希望能夠再更重，我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的態度。"],["羅委員智強：我還是拜託部長參考一下，剛剛我們的宗憲召委也講，在別的立法例當中，一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑考量之一……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會再研議，這也是本來我們研議的選項……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，我至少聽到這句話就比較……"],["鄭部長銘謙：研議的內容。我想委員……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我先謝謝你，剛剛說納入死刑，你說再研議，你這句話基本上我接受，但是拜託腳步跟時程……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會盡快。"],["羅委員智強：因為過去我們跟法務部這麼多的互動，經常最後是有個頭沒個尾，我希望這件事情能夠順應我們臺灣人民對於所謂公平正義、司法正義的期待。","我最後還是做一點結論，今天不只是剴剴案，其實最近看了很多案子，我自己都看得很搖頭，比方說，杜承哲詐騙集團拘禁、凌虐61個人！61個人其中有3個被活活地虐殺，結果也是免死，我都不知道，到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代？怎麼跟那3個被虐死的家屬交代？其中一個媽媽的故事，我到現在看了都還很難過，他媽媽臨終前要託旁邊的人跟他兒子說：「對不起，媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了。」我要說，今天我們臺灣的司法、刑事政策，真的已經走向是在保護加害人，然後去踐踏被害人的情況，這也是為什麼今天會提出所謂的反廢死公投，當然我知道法務部也好，或是很多人主要說這是大法官的判決，我們今天不可以用公投，抱歉，這點我是不能接受的，因為公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投事項，它講的是重大政策可以做公投事項。第二個，我不認為大法官高於人民，所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八銅人陣讓判死越來越難，為什麼今天杜承哲的判死這麼難？這個詐欺集團判死這麼難？也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關，更何況還有一件事馬上被認證，就是師鐸獎女老師的案子，五度判死最後被免死定讞，就在大法官憲法判決之後，第一時間最高法院出來直接引述是按照大法官最新憲法判決意旨，所以才改判免死定讞，這一點是我自己一直放在心上，包括剴剴案的這件事，我剛剛很謝謝部長，部長說願意去做刑度上的考量，這一點總是一個好的開始。但不管怎麼樣講，今天真的不能讓我們刑事政策扭曲到這種地步，非常背離人民的情感，讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝羅委員。","下一位請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘、蔡易餘。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}}