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\"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1073.336, \"end\": 1073.356, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1073.356, \"end\": 1073.376, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1073.376, \"end\": 1073.396, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1073.396, \"end\": 1073.436, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1073.436, \"end\": 1073.456, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 1073.456, \"end\": 1073.496, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 1073.496, \"end\": 1073.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1073.516, \"end\": 1073.536, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,015 --> 00:00:27,830\n好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長法務部政部長政部長NCC主委NCC主委代理主委代理主委還有中華電信副總好\n\n2\n00:00:35,839 --> 00:00:54,124\n其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導\n\n3\n00:00:56,124 --> 00:01:24,387\n自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法\n\n4\n00:01:34,354 --> 00:01:47,516\n請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦\n\n5\n00:01:48,854 --> 00:02:16,278\n好給你看因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員這剛才不管是哪一端但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n\n6\n00:02:18,223 --> 00:02:21,805\n各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法\n\n7\n00:02:40,951 --> 00:02:50,690\n所以你現在不敢講了好你不敢講了請問一下那個法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n\n8\n00:02:52,369 --> 00:03:13,683\n這個行為有沒有這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條第十六條第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話這個如果說有人違反的話\n\n9\n00:03:16,325 --> 00:03:20,512\n這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的\n\n10\n00:03:25,082 --> 00:03:49,281\n這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說\n\n11\n00:03:50,262 --> 00:04:02,265\n如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分\n\n12\n00:04:17,189 --> 00:04:36,167\n可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法\n\n13\n00:04:36,994 --> 00:04:46,242\n好那我想請問一下因為像我是被罷免人我們很多委員是被罷免人那假使被罷免人這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊就說哎呀拜託你要出來投票要投不同意罷免請問一下\n\n14\n00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:08,332\n要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇就有事了\n\n15\n00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:29,579\n因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的\n\n16\n00:05:36,021 --> 00:05:58,017\n的問題的話那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人他是被害人嘛對民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家對不對看看有沒有成立他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊部長會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦這個\n\n17\n00:06:02,161 --> 00:06:13,844\n這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊\n\n18\n00:06:27,372 --> 00:06:53,434\n集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財\n\n19\n00:06:56,937 --> 00:07:20,408\n詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有\n\n20\n00:07:22,227 --> 00:07:46,376\n112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園\n\n21\n00:07:48,317 --> 00:08:15,893\n地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面\n\n22\n00:08:16,789 --> 00:08:36,064\n不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢\n\n23\n00:08:40,632 --> 00:09:07,097\n因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對\n\n24\n00:09:08,513 --> 00:09:19,339\n那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是林副總是\n\n25\n00:09:21,238 --> 00:09:44,010\n因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的\n\n26\n00:09:45,030 --> 00:10:06,780\n他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來\n\n27\n00:10:09,282 --> 00:10:18,727\n哪來的不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好那請問一下NCC主管機關請問一下按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒\n\n28\n00:10:30,987 --> 00:10:58,069\n我們的職權範圍措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報剛剛說有兩個層次第一個層次是用戶同意LPS第二個層次是A傳給B傳給CC是電信公司最後傳給使用者B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明他要負這個法律責任他這要怎麼取得是合法還是\n\n29\n00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:25,498\n那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查\n\n30\n00:11:29,722 --> 00:11:43,258\n反正那個有涉及到犯罪的有經過告訴高發等等的那當然我們會啟動調查那不管不用說什麼個資啦如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題\n\n31\n00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,601\n過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有\n\n32\n00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:21,392\n被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的\n\n33\n00:12:22,774 --> 00:12:42,636\n那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊\n\n34\n00:12:43,177 --> 00:12:45,519\n而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的\n\n35\n00:13:07,182 --> 00:13:12,144\n因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的\n\n36\n00:13:24,825 --> 00:13:29,430\n這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個\n\n37\n00:13:44,464 --> 00:13:54,070\n是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛\n\n38\n00:14:11,019 --> 00:14:16,062\n因為它不能海量發送海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團\n\n39\n00:14:40,658 --> 00:14:43,759\n第二個請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用\n\n40\n00:14:57,239 --> 00:15:20,428\n是不是應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是\n\n41\n00:15:21,808 --> 00:15:25,952\n關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候\n\n42\n00:15:49,689 --> 00:16:04,381\n請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了\n\n43\n00:16:04,881 --> 00:16:09,042\n所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的\n\n44\n00:16:31,668 --> 00:16:59,446\n兒少我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員我的愛心我對同情我絕對不會輸給你的啦\n\n45\n00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:23,681\n我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童\n\n46\n00:17:25,082 --> 00:17:35,148\n這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛這個沒有過失啊這個絕對不是故意的喔好所以我們因為我們這個可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心這部分我們會用\n\n47\n00:17:47,874 --> 00:17:53,536\n以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8015\t27830\t好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長 麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好\n35839\t54124\t其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導\n56124\t84387\t自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法\n94354\t107516\t請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦\n108854\t136278\t好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n138223\t141805\t各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法\n160951\t170690\t所以你現在不敢講了好 你不敢講了 請問一下那個 法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n172369\t193683\t這個行為有沒有 這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有 那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話\n196325\t200512\t這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的\n205082\t229281\t這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說\n230262\t242265\t如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分\n257189\t276167\t可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法\n276994\t286242\t好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那 假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人 針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下\n299170\t308332\t要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了\n328436\t329579\t因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的\n336021\t358017\t的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立 他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個\n362161\t373844\t這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛 那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊\n387372\t413434\t集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財\n416937\t440408\t詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有\n442227\t466376\t112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園\n468317\t495893\t地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面\n496789\t516064\t不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢\n520632\t547097\t因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對\n548513\t559339\t那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來 我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是 林副總是\n561238\t584010\t因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的\n585030\t606780\t他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來\n609282\t618727\t哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下 按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒\n630987\t658069\t我們的職權範圍 措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是\n659610\t685498\t那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查\n689722\t703258\t反正那個有涉及到犯罪的 有經過告訴高發等等的 那當然我們會啟動調查那不管 不用說什麼個資啦 如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪 包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題\n705120\t706601\t過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有\n727290\t741392\t被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的\n742774\t762636\t那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊\n763177\t765519\t而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的\n787182\t792144\t因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的\n804825\t809430\t這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個\n824464\t834070\t是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛\n851019\t856062\t因為它不能海量發送 海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講 尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊 怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好 我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求 像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團\n880658\t883759\t第二個 請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用\n897239\t920428\t是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個 在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是\n921808\t925952\t關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候\n949689\t964381\t請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了\n964881\t969042\t所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的\n991668\t1019446\t兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員 我的愛心 我對同情 我絕對不會輸給你的啦\n1022540\t1043681\t我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以 淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童\n1045082\t1055148\t這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛 這個沒有過失啊 這個絕對不是故意的喔好 所以我們 因為我們這個 可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用\n1067874\t1073536\t以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長 麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好\n其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導\n自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法\n請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦\n好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法\n所以你現在不敢講了好 你不敢講了 請問一下那個 法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n這個行為有沒有 這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有 那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話\n這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的\n這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說\n如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分\n可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法\n好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那 假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人 針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下\n要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了\n因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的\n的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立 他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個\n這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛 那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊\n集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財\n詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有\n112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園\n地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面\n不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢\n因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對\n那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來 我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是 林副總是\n因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的\n他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來\n哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下 按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒\n我們的職權範圍 措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是\n那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查\n反正那個有涉及到犯罪的 有經過告訴高發等等的 那當然我們會啟動調查那不管 不用說什麼個資啦 如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪 包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題\n過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有\n被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的\n那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊\n而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的\n因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的\n這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個\n是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛\n因為它不能海量發送 海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講 尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊 怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好 我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求 像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團\n第二個 請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用\n是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個 在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是\n關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候\n請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了\n所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的\n兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員 我的愛心 我對同情 我絕對不會輸給你的啦\n我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以 淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童\n這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛 這個沒有過失啊 這個絕對不是故意的喔好 所以我們 因為我們這個 可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用\n以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.015 --> 00:27.830\n好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長法務部政部長政部長NCC主委NCC主委代理主委代理主委還有中華電信副總好\n\n00:35.839 --> 00:54.124\n其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導\n\n00:56.124 --> 01:24.387\n自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法\n\n01:34.354 --> 01:47.516\n請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦\n\n01:48.854 --> 02:16.278\n好給你看因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員這剛才不管是哪一端但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n\n02:18.223 --> 02:21.805\n各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法\n\n02:40.951 --> 02:50.690\n所以你現在不敢講了好你不敢講了請問一下那個法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法\n\n02:52.369 --> 03:13.683\n這個行為有沒有這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條第十六條第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話這個如果說有人違反的話\n\n03:16.325 --> 03:20.512\n這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的\n\n03:25.082 --> 03:49.281\n這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說\n\n03:50.262 --> 04:02.265\n如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分\n\n04:17.189 --> 04:36.167\n可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法\n\n04:36.994 --> 04:46.242\n好那我想請問一下因為像我是被罷免人我們很多委員是被罷免人那假使被罷免人這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊就說哎呀拜託你要出來投票要投不同意罷免請問一下\n\n04:59.170 --> 05:08.332\n要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇就有事了\n\n05:28.436 --> 05:29.579\n因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的\n\n05:36.021 --> 05:58.017\n的問題的話那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人他是被害人嘛對民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家對不對看看有沒有成立他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊部長會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦這個\n\n06:02.161 --> 06:13.844\n這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊\n\n06:27.372 --> 06:53.434\n集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財\n\n06:56.937 --> 07:20.408\n詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有\n\n07:22.227 --> 07:46.376\n112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園\n\n07:48.317 --> 08:15.893\n地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面\n\n08:16.789 --> 08:36.064\n不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢\n\n08:40.632 --> 09:07.097\n因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對\n\n09:08.513 --> 09:19.339\n那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是林副總是\n\n09:21.238 --> 09:44.010\n因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的\n\n09:45.030 --> 10:06.780\n他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來\n\n10:09.282 --> 10:18.727\n哪來的不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好那請問一下NCC主管機關請問一下按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒\n\n10:30.987 --> 10:58.069\n我們的職權範圍措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報剛剛說有兩個層次第一個層次是用戶同意LPS第二個層次是A傳給B傳給CC是電信公司最後傳給使用者B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明他要負這個法律責任他這要怎麼取得是合法還是\n\n10:59.610 --> 11:25.498\n那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查\n\n11:29.722 --> 11:43.258\n反正那個有涉及到犯罪的有經過告訴高發等等的那當然我們會啟動調查那不管不用說什麼個資啦如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題\n\n11:45.120 --> 11:46.601\n過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有\n\n12:07.290 --> 12:21.392\n被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的\n\n12:22.774 --> 12:42.636\n那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊\n\n12:43.177 --> 12:45.519\n而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的\n\n13:07.182 --> 13:12.144\n因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的\n\n13:24.825 --> 13:29.430\n這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個\n\n13:44.464 --> 13:54.070\n是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛\n\n14:11.019 --> 14:16.062\n因為它不能海量發送海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團\n\n14:40.658 --> 14:43.759\n第二個請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用\n\n14:57.239 --> 15:20.428\n是不是應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是\n\n15:21.808 --> 15:25.952\n關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候\n\n15:49.689 --> 16:04.381\n請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了\n\n16:04.881 --> 16:09.042\n所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的\n\n16:31.668 --> 16:59.446\n兒少我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員我的愛心我對同情我絕對不會輸給你的啦\n\n17:02.540 --> 17:23.681\n我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童\n\n17:25.082 --> 17:35.148\n這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛這個沒有過失啊這個絕對不是故意的喔好所以我們因為我們這個可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心這部分我們會用\n\n17:47.874 --> 17:53.536\n以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.015,"end":27.83,"text":"好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長 麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好"},{"start":35.839,"end":54.124,"text":"其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導"},{"start":56.124,"end":84.387,"text":"自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":94.354,"end":107.516,"text":"請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦"},{"start":108.854,"end":136.278,"text":"好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":138.223,"end":141.805,"text":"各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法"},{"start":160.951,"end":170.69,"text":"所以你現在不敢講了好 你不敢講了 請問一下那個 法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":172.369,"end":193.683,"text":"這個行為有沒有 這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有 那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話"},{"start":196.325,"end":200.512,"text":"這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的"},{"start":205.082,"end":229.281,"text":"這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說"},{"start":230.262,"end":242.265,"text":"如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分"},{"start":257.189,"end":276.167,"text":"可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法"},{"start":276.994,"end":286.242,"text":"好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那 假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人 針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下"},{"start":299.17,"end":308.332,"text":"要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了"},{"start":328.436,"end":329.579,"text":"因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的"},{"start":336.021,"end":358.017,"text":"的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立 他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個"},{"start":362.161,"end":373.844,"text":"這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛 那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊"},{"start":387.372,"end":413.434,"text":"集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財"},{"start":416.937,"end":440.408,"text":"詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有"},{"start":442.227,"end":466.376,"text":"112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園"},{"start":468.317,"end":495.893,"text":"地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面"},{"start":496.789,"end":516.064,"text":"不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢"},{"start":520.632,"end":547.097,"text":"因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對"},{"start":548.513,"end":559.339,"text":"那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來 我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是 林副總是"},{"start":561.238,"end":584.01,"text":"因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的"},{"start":585.03,"end":606.78,"text":"他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來"},{"start":609.282,"end":618.727,"text":"哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下 按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒"},{"start":630.987,"end":658.069,"text":"我們的職權範圍 措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是"},{"start":659.61,"end":685.498,"text":"那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查"},{"start":689.722,"end":703.258,"text":"反正那個有涉及到犯罪的 有經過告訴高發等等的 那當然我們會啟動調查那不管 不用說什麼個資啦 如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪 包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題"},{"start":705.12,"end":706.601,"text":"過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有"},{"start":727.29,"end":741.392,"text":"被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的"},{"start":742.774,"end":762.636,"text":"那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊"},{"start":763.177,"end":765.519,"text":"而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的"},{"start":787.182,"end":792.144,"text":"因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的"},{"start":804.825,"end":809.43,"text":"這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個"},{"start":824.464,"end":834.07,"text":"是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛"},{"start":851.019,"end":856.062,"text":"因為它不能海量發送 海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講 尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊 怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好 我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求 像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團"},{"start":880.658,"end":883.759,"text":"第二個 請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用"},{"start":897.239,"end":920.428,"text":"是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個 在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是"},{"start":921.808,"end":925.952,"text":"關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候"},{"start":949.689,"end":964.381,"text":"請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了"},{"start":964.881,"end":969.042,"text":"所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的"},{"start":991.668,"end":1019.446,"text":"兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員 我的愛心 我對同情 我絕對不會輸給你的啦"},{"start":1022.54,"end":1043.681,"text":"我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以 淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童"},{"start":1045.082,"end":1055.148,"text":"這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛 這個沒有過失啊 這個絕對不是故意的喔好 所以我們 因為我們這個 可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用"},{"start":1067.874,"end":1073.536,"text":"以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時17分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：NCC主委。"],["主席：NCC代理主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有中華電信。"],["主席：副總。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實今天我們主要是談簡訊，罷團組織顯然已經很精準地針對地區發了相關的簡訊，這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法，根據自由時報的報導，自由時報報導引述司法院說：「有違法可提起救濟。」司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案，目前尚處於選罷法規定的提議或連署階段，民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反個資法，我想請問副秘書長，到底有沒有違反個資法？請說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們剛在報告中有說，還是要看它的整個程序，因為司法最後事實上是在尾端，所以要看個案所呈現的狀況才能夠做判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：我簡訊內容給你看了，因為這個是有鎖定區域，它不會到臺北來讓我去平鎮簽聯署書，也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書，它的發送是有鎖定在他的選區，這樣有沒有違反個資法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管是哪一端，最後這個行為有沒有違反個資法？個資有受到保護嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才主管機關對這個部分也有非常多的說明，司法必須要有個案出來的時候，在最後的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：那自由時報是假新聞嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：他說罷團簡訊可能涉嫌違法，所以你現在不敢講了。請問法務部鄭部長，像這個行為有沒有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個行為有沒有違反個資法要就個案的認定，但是個資法處罰是看違反第六條、第十五條、第十六條、第十九條跟第二十條，因為個資蒐集、處理、利用都有法定嚴格的標準，如果有人違反的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思就是他可以很精準地在這個區域裡面，發送簡訊給這個區域的受眾，這沒有個資外洩的問題嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們看個人資料保護法個人資料的定義……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，部長，我要問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是指自然人，還有比如出生年月日、身分證號碼、電話號碼等等，得以直接或間接識別該個人的資料，也就是說，如果單純的一個電話號碼，我們沒辦法知道這個是誰的，如果簡訊說：王某某，麻煩你來支持。這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣才有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是很明確的個人資料，所以如果只用一個單純電話，無法辨識這到底是誰的電話。"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要往前……"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識啦！無法辨識他有沒有違反個資。"],["鄭部長銘謙：無法辨識這是誰的電話，這部分可能要再往前去推，是不是有提供這些……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，請問像這個案例，因為民眾都很緊張，我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來調查嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人來告訴、告發，依據訴訟法第二百二十八條，我們就來查到底有沒有違反個資法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，像我是被罷免人，我們很多委員是被罷免人，因為這個簡訊是罷團發送的，假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊：拜託你要出來投票、要投不同意罷免。請問一下，要不要辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人……我想這個都是按照證據來認定跟調查。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠，所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣都沒問題，司法院也說看個案，法務部也說看個案，然後等到被罷免人也同樣去買簡訊的時候，可能不一樣的內容，不是讓你去連署，就是拜託你投票、請你投票不同意罷免，哇！就有事了！因為你們的雙標是很厲害的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過跟委員解釋，那個不是雙標，如果接到簡訊，有個資法問題的話，那是屬於接到簡訊的人是被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，民眾就告發啦！民眾怎麼沒有告發呢？你看他還提供簡訊給大家，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果告發我們就會辦，我們就依法來調查、釐清，看看有沒有成立個人資料外洩的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，會不會雙標？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會雙標啦！辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實，沒有證據……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們雙標很厲害啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，委員，不能直接貼雙標的標籤，我們要維持一個純淨的辦案空間，有證據就辦，我們會……"],["王委員鴻薇：辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛！","我想請問NCC，有關簡訊集中在特殊條件，簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍，其實一般商業用得更廣，比如有些建商做一個建案，就是要有些特殊條件，鎖定在這個區域的，或比如一些投資理財，當然投資理財詐騙簡訊最多，所以我知道你們有一個防止詐騙，有關簡訊這些電信資料管理的指引，有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：有嘛？當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙，因為詐騙行為太多，你們這個指引，請問上路了沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：112年就上路了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，上路了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：持續在修正當中，商業簡訊如果有網址連結、電話號碼、短碼部分，我們都會封阻，除非他經過驗證，符合正當使用會列入白名單。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問在指引裡面，他如果去限定他的特殊條件，比如限定在桃園地區、限定在臺北市或臺北市的哪幾個區域，或限定有過投資行為，類似這種商業化的簡訊……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：兩個層次……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，如果這些幫企業去投放簡訊，這個在不在你們指引管理的範圍裡面？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不在，但是原來我們定期化契約有要求，還有個資法本身也有要求，你要提供LBS服務，必須要用戶同意才可以提供。"],["王委員鴻薇：才可以提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，就是經過合法或使用者同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，因為這個事件，你們說調查了解三家行動通訊業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者，就是我們三大電信業者都沒有提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問這些簡訊代發業者的資料哪來的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料，行銷公司是如何提供資料給他？"],["王委員鴻薇：他可以把他歸類，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就行銷公司的資訊來源這部分再去談……"],["王委員鴻薇：就不知道怎麼來源？我請中華電信，因為他們是你的客戶，請林副總。"],["林執行副總經理文智：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們是上游，中游是這些簡訊代發業者，你們沒有給他們，那他們資料哪來的？怎麼生出來的？"],["林執行副總經理文智：其實他們的資料，我們大概無從去了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：無從要求、無從理解？不知道他怎麼來的，他自己可以生成出來。"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，每一家公司在經營相關的業務……"],["王委員鴻薇：都有他的神通廣大？"],["林執行副總經理文智：他應該都要依照個資保護法來做相關的處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：這當然啊，我就問你，既然他是你的客戶，你沒有給他這個資料，那他資料哪來的？從天上掉下來，還是從地底下竄上來？哪來的，不知道？"],["林執行副總經理文智：電信公司在這個案子裡面就是純粹網路通訊傳送的角色。"],["王委員鴻薇：都不知道？NCC主管機關，請問按照電信業者說沒有給他們，但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料，你們查過沒？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們作用法的職權範圍內，就電信業者這部分，我們有兩次行政調查過。簡單再跟委員回報，剛剛有兩個層次：第一個層次是用戶同意LBS，第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C，C是電信公司最後傳給使用者，B是簡訊代發業者，A最上游端的行銷公司，他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明，他要負這個法律責任，他資料怎麼取得？是合法還是違法？"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是。"],["王委員鴻薇：不在NCC，在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在他對應的相關主管機關。"],["王委員鴻薇：他對應主管機關是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他是行銷公司，目前初步應該是經濟部。"],["王委員鴻薇：經濟部？經濟部應該包山包海？因為他違法個資法的問題，最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題，請問法務部部長，這該不該你們查？NCC說不干他的事。"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是有涉及到犯罪，經過告訴、告發等等，當然我們會啟動調查，不只是個資，如果還有其他的犯罪，包括像這種可能涉及妨礙秘密的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去有查過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有統計的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會沒有查過？這麼多詐騙，很多詐騙就是透過簡訊在詐騙。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個本來就是個資……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講簡訊的問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個詐騙詐欺本來就有個資法，他有查到違反個資法，檢方會起訴，但沒有這部分的統計數據。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講這些所發的簡訊有被設定特殊條件，並不是在選舉。我直接說，常常有很多政治人物，到了中秋節、過年，他也會發送簡訊給你拜年之類的，在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多，最氾濫的確實就是詐騙，因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛！所以照理說，因為防詐騙，你們應該早就要針對這一些啟動相關的調查，怎麼會到現在都告訴我，好像沒有人在管，而且也不知道他們的資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所關心詐欺的詐團，本來就有個資法的一些起訴案例，那個是有嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，因為我剛剛提到詐騙最多，根據你們過去的調查，這一些簡訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件，他們的資料哪裡來的？因為NCC說他們只查電信業者，電信業者說：「我們沒有，我們沒有提供啊！」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是屬於犯罪前端的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題？當他們變成詐騙行為這麼多的時候，他們已經不是個案是變通案了，請問他們資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪的情況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你也不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪類型都不一樣，他怎麼來的……"],["王委員鴻薇：一問都三不知？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是一問都三不知，我沒辦法跟你講：到底是哪個案件？是從哪裡來的？所以是有些廣告投放商，有些是託播的人給的，有些是怎麼蒐集的，就是最原始的前端所蒐集，而他們就把這些蒐集及處理後的個人資料賣掉，有些是賣他的……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長不要著急，我要講的是不要為了cover這件事情，這事實上在簡訊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在cover。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常的這些資料，就是常常是用特殊條件，因為他們要精準行銷嘛！他們不能海量發送，海量發送實在太貴了，他們要精準行銷，所以照理講，尤其我們詐騙這麼多，你們早就應該去整理出他們的樣態，怎麼到現在什麼都不知道，我這邊只有兩個要求，第一個，如果像這樣情況，你們確定他們是有違反個資法之嫌，該調查就要調查，不要為了去cover哪些集團。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不會去cover，警政署長在這裡，我們打詐團隊不會去cover什麼集團，這是我們需要做澄清的。"],["王委員鴻薇：第二個，請你不要辦藍不辦綠，罷團可以用，到時候被罷免的人也同樣可以用，是不是？應該是這樣的一個標準。所以我要講的就是該調查就要調查，另外在調查的時候，就請你不要再雙標了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有雙標，只要犯罪有告訴、告發的話，我們就按照證據來證明犯罪行為，我們沒有雙標啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道你們今天下午要開記者會，我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的施政記者會？是要告訴大家，你們這一年司法來得豐功偉業，就是關了一個在野黨的主席，對不對？然後抄了8個在野黨的黨部，關了多少的人家的黨部主委？逃掉多少的重要經濟要犯？我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不同意委員這些的講法，這樣對我們戰戰兢兢及那麼辛苦的這些辦案人員，包含法官、檢察官、警察等辦案人員是很不公平的說法。"],["王委員鴻薇：當民意對於司法的公信力及滿意度這麼低的時候，請你們拿出真正民眾關心的證物，而不是在繼續的為政治服務。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們關心所有的被害人，委員是關心幾個案件，我們是關心所有的被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不是關心幾個案件，我們是關心可多了，因為現在時間的關係，像剛剛羅智強委員所提的，反正我們黨團也已經提出相關法案的修正，也希望法務部能夠採納，能夠回應十三萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員放心，這部分我們已經在修法了，我們會更完整的情況，能夠更加保護這些的兒少，我們絕對不能允許這些的……剛才主席也有講，包括是不是真的要到殺人或者致死的是不是可以再加重，我們都在研議。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，如果凌虐7歲以下兒童致死，是不是應該可以處以死刑或者無期徒刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是我們在研議，是開放的一個選項。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才也有講，凌虐這麼小的小孩，你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我的愛心及同情心絕對不會輸給你的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們現在講法，你不是在跟我選舉啊！部長不需要有這麼多的政治語言，所以我剛才講說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是政治語言，因為對這些兒童的殘害，真的是天理難容，所以我們一直在努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以凌虐幼童，就是7歲以下的凌虐幼童，這個其實不是叫過失，這就是故意了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是過失，絕對是故意的，委員可能不知道起訴的法條。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，召委會召開公聽會、排公聽會，到時候也會審查相關法案，希望法務部拿出最大、最大的誠意來支持，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員請放心，這部分我們會以最周全的保護方式，我想這是人神共憤。"],["王委員鴻薇：回應民意啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們一定會回應民意，請委員放心，對兒童、少年的保護，我們一定會不遺餘力，也謝謝委員，一起來推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：請你有具體的行為，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請葉元之委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}}