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\"很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 494.448, \"end\": 494.708, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 494.708, \"end\": 494.908, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 494.908, \"end\": 495.108, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 495.108, \"end\": 495.308, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 495.308, \"end\": 495.749, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"儀\"}, {\"word\": \"器\", \"start\": 495.749, \"end\": 496.149, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 496.149, \"end\": 496.269, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 496.269, \"end\": 496.429, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 496.429, \"end\": 496.689, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 496.689, \"end\": 497.169, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 508.414, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 508.414, \"end\": 508.534, \"score\": 0.564}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 508.534, \"end\": 508.554, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 508.554, \"end\": 508.574, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 508.574, \"end\": 508.654, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 508.654, \"end\": 508.694, \"score\": 0.377}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 508.694, \"end\": 508.714, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 508.714, \"end\": 508.794, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 508.794, \"end\": 508.814, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 508.814, \"end\": 508.854, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 508.854, \"end\": 508.874, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 508.874, \"end\": 508.894, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 508.894, \"end\": 508.974, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 508.974, \"end\": 508.994, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 508.994, \"end\": 509.014, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 509.014, \"end\": 509.034, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 509.034, \"end\": 509.054, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 509.054, \"end\": 509.154, \"score\": 0.534}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 509.154, \"end\": 509.334, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 509.334, \"end\": 509.354, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 509.354, \"end\": 509.374, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 509.374, \"end\": 509.414, \"score\": 0.459}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 509.414, \"end\": 509.434, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 509.434, \"end\": 509.574, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 509.574, \"end\": 509.674, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 509.674, \"end\": 509.694, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 509.694, \"end\": 509.714, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 509.714, \"end\": 509.734, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 524.38, \"end\": 545.434, \"text\": \"這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 524.38, \"end\": 524.541, \"score\": 0.586}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 524.541, \"end\": 524.661, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 524.661, \"end\": 524.741, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 524.741, \"end\": 524.881, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 524.881, \"end\": 525.181, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"凍\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 525.181, \"end\": 525.481, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 525.481, 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{\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 545.414, \"end\": 545.434, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 548.236, \"end\": 554.502, \"text\": \"那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 548.236, \"end\": 548.256, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 548.256, \"end\": 548.757, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 548.757, \"end\": 549.137, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 549.137, \"end\": 549.498, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 549.498, \"end\": 549.678, \"score\": 0.612}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 549.678, \"end\": 549.838, \"score\": 0.514}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 549.838, \"end\": 549.958, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 549.958, \"end\": 550.298, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 550.298, 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\"start\": 819.577, \"end\": 819.597, \"score\": 0.014}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:07,976\n科智恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長\n\n2\n00:00:10,831 --> 00:00:32,028\n科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中大概是學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意\n\n3\n00:00:34,730 --> 00:01:00,848\n好我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗\n\n4\n00:01:01,488 --> 00:01:22,306\n这是在跟委员沟通之前是没错你觉得我们可能以我们跟中研院的默契我们会把你们这样的经费删到一块钱吗你觉得有可能吗有需要这份大动作来告诉大家我们可能会影响到中研院每一个人的生计吗我觉得有必要做这样一个声纹吗一块钱不是我们讲的\n\n5\n00:01:22,666 --> 00:01:42,813\n那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前\n\n6\n00:01:43,553 --> 00:02:01,200\n沒有道理去告訴好像是就一副我們就會把中研院影響到每一個造成非常大的一個訊息上的混淆這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中\n\n7\n00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:31,494\n提出这个很大的删减项目我们当初也立即跟三个党团的负责人召委来协商但是都不得此项我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了\n\n8\n00:02:32,074 --> 00:02:46,365\n你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來\n\n9\n00:02:55,972 --> 00:03:13,398\n好那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子还有出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的15可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看以113年跟114年来说我们就算是山减就是我们统三大概是差距是1.01%\n\n10\n00:03:21,221 --> 00:03:41,746\n但是呢你以国外的差旅费来说我们增幅是13而且你的删减率说实在差10%再往下我会让院长有机会来看一下然后呢我们所冻结的这些部分当中呢当然业务费包山包海其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的差旅费当中\n\n11\n00:03:48,268 --> 00:04:00,631\n你認為是在我們的業務費當中是佔多少嗎因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是中研院是5000多萬元\n\n12\n00:04:11,894 --> 00:04:28,548\n但是你知道吗虽然这个地方不能挪用还有一笔基金不是在我们今天讨论范围就是你114年度的你科研基金编列的差旅费是多少吗你知道比113年科研基金的里面的差旅费也是你们可以使用的告诉院长增加了7047增幅是51.44%\n\n13\n00:04:32,952 --> 00:04:53,982\n所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的车旅费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分\n\n14\n00:04:54,902 --> 00:05:16,756\n我只是告诉你院长的解方你不能告诉我你因为没有这些公务预算大家都好像不认为我们就是学术的这个研究所影响你的科研基金我告诉院长你科研基金通常来说你基金政府机关即便没有经过三读你们还是会先用了再说而且都是到年底才敢审完\n\n15\n00:05:17,336 --> 00:05:26,974\n所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行啊\n\n16\n00:05:27,927 --> 00:05:30,709\n據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎\n\n17\n00:05:50,103 --> 00:05:56,412\n你如果看到主計處所公布的這樣的一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管\n\n18\n00:06:05,686 --> 00:06:22,488\n基本上面你们只要提得出合理的方法有基金的预算我们都完全来同意我只是要告诉你中研院不是没有钱有不同的方式你可以来让我们这些科研人员都还是有办法得到非常好的一个照顾就是在教文会达到这个目标我们非常感谢\n\n19\n00:06:23,649 --> 00:06:32,596\n但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你這是你們在這次解凍來說\n\n20\n00:06:39,361 --> 00:06:54,278\n但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點\n\n21\n00:06:58,323 --> 00:07:07,650\n但是呢各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求所以這部分來怎麼樣的部分呢永遠告訴我們這個結果然後呢我們的預算中心跟我們這樣大家都還是認為你們在採購這個千萬元以上的儀器上面還是有這樣的問題需要被來做澄清的院長沒有別的方法嗎那因為這部分\n\n22\n00:07:18,197 --> 00:07:34,965\n越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的\n\n23\n00:07:47,270 --> 00:08:14,108\n那我帮你算了一下你目前为止114年超过千万的贵重仪器大概有253台其中15台已经停止运用了而过去三年当中就是111到113你贵重仪器用于发表期刊共983篇被引用的次数是7182次算起来三年平均一台发表四篇论文被引用30次你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信\n\n24\n00:08:14,448 --> 00:08:29,734\n很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事\n\n25\n00:08:44,380 --> 00:09:05,434\n這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用\n\n26\n00:09:08,236 --> 00:09:14,502\n那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留\n\n27\n00:09:32,157 --> 00:09:42,240\n那如果是有注意提升的水準的話那我們當然都會願意的支持但是你不合效益中一立體算都在做預算保留多年沒有動用到這個計劃那你這個部分裡面要嘛就緩半否則你就要用在這個部分還是一句話嘛你怎麼樣來經濟嘛這還是呈現出這樣的一個數字出來啊\n\n28\n00:09:51,944 --> 00:10:01,912\n這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研\n\n29\n00:10:08,737 --> 00:10:24,118\n永远是领先的我们预算至少是一年半因为你们流用的方式你们缓编的方式其实是太多年的所以这又是被提出来是我们希望这个立法院预算中心我们刚才解释了好几年我们希望再次能够沟通希望大家能够了解\n\n30\n00:10:24,258 --> 00:10:24,758\n好好去沟通\n\n31\n00:10:54,258 --> 00:10:54,318\n对不对\n\n32\n00:11:20,675 --> 00:11:49,856\n这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提到我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力了因为你们现在目前为止\n\n33\n00:11:50,256 --> 00:12:15,194\n我们会非常努力对啊你的精英博士班的快速入学计划里面目前来说第一波以台湾学生为主到目前为止也只有22个人申请而且最终录取11个人这些对我们来说这个比我想象的数字我会以为在这一波当中我们应该可以recruit更多的人才很显然包括所提出的条件还有报名还有我们所录取的部分可能据院长所当初所规定的计划可能还是有一段距离因为只有两个礼拜\n\n34\n00:12:15,914 --> 00:12:35,380\n因為我們在這只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去而且這裡面院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的權利配合\n\n35\n00:12:38,001 --> 00:12:42,845\n還是再一次一如我一剛才站在台上的時候中研院雖然附屬於總統下面的一個單位但是我覺得發言要本朱你所看到的一個事實不要還沒有發生的狀況你反而率先來去做這樣的一個處理我們一向如此這會就引起人大恐慌這點是本席今天一定要以正視聽我們並沒有在這個地方影響三千人的這樣的生計也沒有因為我們任何部分來影響中研院對於人才來培育或是對國外\n\n36\n00:13:03,502 --> 00:13:09,732\n所謂這個我們科研人員對台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援\n\n37\n00:13:11,286 --> 00:13:33,492\n謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你就相信我們不會在對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝\n\n38\n00:13:37,881 --> 00:13:39,597\n好謝謝柯之恩委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t7976\t科智恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長\n10831\t32028\t科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中大概是學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意\n34730\t60848\t好我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗\n61488\t82306\t这是在跟委员沟通之前是没错你觉得我们可能以我们跟中研院的默契我们会把你们这样的经费删到一块钱吗你觉得有可能吗有需要这份大动作来告诉大家我们可能会影响到中研院每一个人的生计吗我觉得有必要做这样一个声纹吗一块钱不是我们讲的\n82666\t102813\t那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前\n103553\t121200\t沒有道理去告訴好像是就一副我們就會把中研院影響到每一個造成非常大的一個訊息上的混淆這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中\n122680\t151494\t提出这个很大的删减项目我们当初也立即跟三个党团的负责人召委来协商但是都不得此项我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了\n152074\t166365\t你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來\n175972\t193398\t好 那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子还有出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的15可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看以113年跟114年来说我们就算是山减就是我们统三大概是差距是1.01%\n201221\t221746\t但是呢你以国外的差旅费来说我们增幅是13而且你的删减率说实在差10%再往下我会让院长有机会来看一下然后呢我们所冻结的这些部分当中呢当然业务费包山包海其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的差旅费当中\n228268\t240631\t你認為是在我們的業務費當中是佔多少嗎因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢 凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是中研院是5000多萬元\n251894\t268548\t但是你知道吗虽然这个地方不能挪用还有一笔基金不是在我们今天讨论范围就是你114年度的你科研基金编列的差旅费是多少吗你知道比113年科研基金的里面的差旅费也是你们可以使用的告诉院长增加了7047增幅是51.44%\n272952\t293982\t所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的车旅费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分\n294902\t316756\t我只是告诉你院长的解方你不能告诉我你因为没有这些公务预算大家都好像不认为我们就是学术的这个研究所影响你的科研基金我告诉院长你科研基金通常来说你基金政府机关即便没有经过三读你们还是会先用了再说而且都是到年底才敢审完\n317336\t326974\t所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行啊\n327927\t330709\t據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎\n350103\t356412\t你如果看到主計處所公布的這樣的一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管\n365686\t382488\t基本上面你们只要提得出合理的方法有基金的预算我们都完全来同意我只是要告诉你中研院不是没有钱有不同的方式你可以来让我们这些科研人员都还是有办法得到非常好的一个照顾就是在教文会达到这个目标我们非常感谢\n383649\t392596\t但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你這是你們在這次解凍來說\n399361\t414278\t但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點\n418323\t427650\t但是呢各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求所以這部分來怎麼樣的部分呢永遠告訴我們這個結果然後呢我們的預算中心跟我們這樣大家都還是認為你們在採購這個千萬元以上的儀器上面還是有這樣的問題需要被來做澄清的院長沒有別的方法嗎那因為這部分\n438197\t454965\t越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的\n467270\t494108\t那我帮你算了一下你目前为止114年超过千万的贵重仪器大概有253台其中15台已经停止运用了而过去三年当中就是111到113你贵重仪器用于发表期刊共983篇被引用的次数是7182次算起来三年平均一台发表四篇论文被引用30次你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信\n494448\t509734\t很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事\n524380\t545434\t這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用\n548236\t554502\t那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留\n572157\t582240\t那如果是有注意提升的水準的話那我們當然都會願意的支持但是你不合效益中一立體算都在做預算保留多年沒有動用到這個計劃那你這個部分裡面要嘛就緩半否則你就要用在這個部分還是一句話嘛你怎麼樣來經濟嘛這還是呈現出這樣的一個數字出來啊\n591944\t601912\t這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研\n608737\t624118\t永远是领先的我们预算至少是一年半因为你们流用的方式你们缓编的方式其实是太多年的所以这又是被提出来是我们希望这个立法院预算中心我们刚才解释了好几年我们希望再次能够沟通希望大家能够了解\n624258\t624758\t好好去沟通\n654258\t654318\t对不对\n680675\t709856\t这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提到我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力了因为你们现在目前为止\n710256\t735194\t我们会非常努力对啊你的精英博士班的快速入学计划里面目前来说第一波以台湾学生为主到目前为止也只有22个人申请而且最终录取11个人这些对我们来说这个比我想象的数字我会以为在这一波当中我们应该可以recruit更多的人才很显然包括所提出的条件还有报名还有我们所录取的部分可能据院长所当初所规定的计划可能还是有一段距离因为只有两个礼拜\n735914\t755380\t因為我們在這只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去而且這裡面院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的權利配合\n758001\t762845\t還是再一次一如我一剛才站在台上的時候中研院雖然附屬於總統下面的一個單位但是我覺得發言要本朱你所看到的一個事實不要還沒有發生的狀況你反而率先來去做這樣的一個處理我們一向如此這會就引起人大恐慌這點是本席今天一定要以正視聽我們並沒有在這個地方影響三千人的這樣的生計也沒有因為我們任何部分來影響中研院對於人才來培育或是對國外\n783502\t789732\t所謂這個我們科研人員對台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援\n791286\t813492\t謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你就相信我們不會在對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝\n817881\t819597\t好 謝謝柯之恩委員\n","txt":"科智恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長\n科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中大概是學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意\n好我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗\n这是在跟委员沟通之前是没错你觉得我们可能以我们跟中研院的默契我们会把你们这样的经费删到一块钱吗你觉得有可能吗有需要这份大动作来告诉大家我们可能会影响到中研院每一个人的生计吗我觉得有必要做这样一个声纹吗一块钱不是我们讲的\n那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前\n沒有道理去告訴好像是就一副我們就會把中研院影響到每一個造成非常大的一個訊息上的混淆這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中\n提出这个很大的删减项目我们当初也立即跟三个党团的负责人召委来协商但是都不得此项我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了\n你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來\n好 那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子还有出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的15可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看以113年跟114年来说我们就算是山减就是我们统三大概是差距是1.01%\n但是呢你以国外的差旅费来说我们增幅是13而且你的删减率说实在差10%再往下我会让院长有机会来看一下然后呢我们所冻结的这些部分当中呢当然业务费包山包海其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的差旅费当中\n你認為是在我們的業務費當中是佔多少嗎因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢 凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是中研院是5000多萬元\n但是你知道吗虽然这个地方不能挪用还有一笔基金不是在我们今天讨论范围就是你114年度的你科研基金编列的差旅费是多少吗你知道比113年科研基金的里面的差旅费也是你们可以使用的告诉院长增加了7047增幅是51.44%\n所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的车旅费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分\n我只是告诉你院长的解方你不能告诉我你因为没有这些公务预算大家都好像不认为我们就是学术的这个研究所影响你的科研基金我告诉院长你科研基金通常来说你基金政府机关即便没有经过三读你们还是会先用了再说而且都是到年底才敢审完\n所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行啊\n據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎\n你如果看到主計處所公布的這樣的一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管\n基本上面你们只要提得出合理的方法有基金的预算我们都完全来同意我只是要告诉你中研院不是没有钱有不同的方式你可以来让我们这些科研人员都还是有办法得到非常好的一个照顾就是在教文会达到这个目标我们非常感谢\n但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你這是你們在這次解凍來說\n但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點\n但是呢各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求所以這部分來怎麼樣的部分呢永遠告訴我們這個結果然後呢我們的預算中心跟我們這樣大家都還是認為你們在採購這個千萬元以上的儀器上面還是有這樣的問題需要被來做澄清的院長沒有別的方法嗎那因為這部分\n越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的\n那我帮你算了一下你目前为止114年超过千万的贵重仪器大概有253台其中15台已经停止运用了而过去三年当中就是111到113你贵重仪器用于发表期刊共983篇被引用的次数是7182次算起来三年平均一台发表四篇论文被引用30次你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信\n很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事\n這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用\n那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留\n那如果是有注意提升的水準的話那我們當然都會願意的支持但是你不合效益中一立體算都在做預算保留多年沒有動用到這個計劃那你這個部分裡面要嘛就緩半否則你就要用在這個部分還是一句話嘛你怎麼樣來經濟嘛這還是呈現出這樣的一個數字出來啊\n這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研\n永远是领先的我们预算至少是一年半因为你们流用的方式你们缓编的方式其实是太多年的所以这又是被提出来是我们希望这个立法院预算中心我们刚才解释了好几年我们希望再次能够沟通希望大家能够了解\n好好去沟通\n对不对\n这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提到我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力了因为你们现在目前为止\n我们会非常努力对啊你的精英博士班的快速入学计划里面目前来说第一波以台湾学生为主到目前为止也只有22个人申请而且最终录取11个人这些对我们来说这个比我想象的数字我会以为在这一波当中我们应该可以recruit更多的人才很显然包括所提出的条件还有报名还有我们所录取的部分可能据院长所当初所规定的计划可能还是有一段距离因为只有两个礼拜\n因為我們在這只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去而且這裡面院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的權利配合\n還是再一次一如我一剛才站在台上的時候中研院雖然附屬於總統下面的一個單位但是我覺得發言要本朱你所看到的一個事實不要還沒有發生的狀況你反而率先來去做這樣的一個處理我們一向如此這會就引起人大恐慌這點是本席今天一定要以正視聽我們並沒有在這個地方影響三千人的這樣的生計也沒有因為我們任何部分來影響中研院對於人才來培育或是對國外\n所謂這個我們科研人員對台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援\n謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你就相信我們不會在對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝\n好 謝謝柯之恩委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:07.976\n科智恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長\n\n00:10.831 --> 00:32.028\n科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中大概是學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意\n\n00:34.730 --> 01:00.848\n好我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗\n\n01:01.488 --> 01:22.306\n这是在跟委员沟通之前是没错你觉得我们可能以我们跟中研院的默契我们会把你们这样的经费删到一块钱吗你觉得有可能吗有需要这份大动作来告诉大家我们可能会影响到中研院每一个人的生计吗我觉得有必要做这样一个声纹吗一块钱不是我们讲的\n\n01:22.666 --> 01:42.813\n那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前\n\n01:43.553 --> 02:01.200\n沒有道理去告訴好像是就一副我們就會把中研院影響到每一個造成非常大的一個訊息上的混淆這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中\n\n02:02.680 --> 02:31.494\n提出这个很大的删减项目我们当初也立即跟三个党团的负责人召委来协商但是都不得此项我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了\n\n02:32.074 --> 02:46.365\n你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來\n\n02:55.972 --> 03:13.398\n好那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子还有出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的15可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看以113年跟114年来说我们就算是山减就是我们统三大概是差距是1.01%\n\n03:21.221 --> 03:41.746\n但是呢你以国外的差旅费来说我们增幅是13而且你的删减率说实在差10%再往下我会让院长有机会来看一下然后呢我们所冻结的这些部分当中呢当然业务费包山包海其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的差旅费当中\n\n03:48.268 --> 04:00.631\n你認為是在我們的業務費當中是佔多少嗎因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是中研院是5000多萬元\n\n04:11.894 --> 04:28.548\n但是你知道吗虽然这个地方不能挪用还有一笔基金不是在我们今天讨论范围就是你114年度的你科研基金编列的差旅费是多少吗你知道比113年科研基金的里面的差旅费也是你们可以使用的告诉院长增加了7047增幅是51.44%\n\n04:32.952 --> 04:53.982\n所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的车旅费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分\n\n04:54.902 --> 05:16.756\n我只是告诉你院长的解方你不能告诉我你因为没有这些公务预算大家都好像不认为我们就是学术的这个研究所影响你的科研基金我告诉院长你科研基金通常来说你基金政府机关即便没有经过三读你们还是会先用了再说而且都是到年底才敢审完\n\n05:17.336 --> 05:26.974\n所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行啊\n\n05:27.927 --> 05:30.709\n據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎\n\n05:50.103 --> 05:56.412\n你如果看到主計處所公布的這樣的一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管\n\n06:05.686 --> 06:22.488\n基本上面你们只要提得出合理的方法有基金的预算我们都完全来同意我只是要告诉你中研院不是没有钱有不同的方式你可以来让我们这些科研人员都还是有办法得到非常好的一个照顾就是在教文会达到这个目标我们非常感谢\n\n06:23.649 --> 06:32.596\n但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你這是你們在這次解凍來說\n\n06:39.361 --> 06:54.278\n但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點\n\n06:58.323 --> 07:07.650\n但是呢各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求所以這部分來怎麼樣的部分呢永遠告訴我們這個結果然後呢我們的預算中心跟我們這樣大家都還是認為你們在採購這個千萬元以上的儀器上面還是有這樣的問題需要被來做澄清的院長沒有別的方法嗎那因為這部分\n\n07:18.197 --> 07:34.965\n越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的\n\n07:47.270 --> 08:14.108\n那我帮你算了一下你目前为止114年超过千万的贵重仪器大概有253台其中15台已经停止运用了而过去三年当中就是111到113你贵重仪器用于发表期刊共983篇被引用的次数是7182次算起来三年平均一台发表四篇论文被引用30次你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信\n\n08:14.448 --> 08:29.734\n很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事\n\n08:44.380 --> 09:05.434\n這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用\n\n09:08.236 --> 09:14.502\n那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留\n\n09:32.157 --> 09:42.240\n那如果是有注意提升的水準的話那我們當然都會願意的支持但是你不合效益中一立體算都在做預算保留多年沒有動用到這個計劃那你這個部分裡面要嘛就緩半否則你就要用在這個部分還是一句話嘛你怎麼樣來經濟嘛這還是呈現出這樣的一個數字出來啊\n\n09:51.944 --> 10:01.912\n這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研\n\n10:08.737 --> 10:24.118\n永远是领先的我们预算至少是一年半因为你们流用的方式你们缓编的方式其实是太多年的所以这又是被提出来是我们希望这个立法院预算中心我们刚才解释了好几年我们希望再次能够沟通希望大家能够了解\n\n10:24.258 --> 10:24.758\n好好去沟通\n\n10:54.258 --> 10:54.318\n对不对\n\n11:20.675 --> 11:49.856\n这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提到我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力了因为你们现在目前为止\n\n11:50.256 --> 12:15.194\n我们会非常努力对啊你的精英博士班的快速入学计划里面目前来说第一波以台湾学生为主到目前为止也只有22个人申请而且最终录取11个人这些对我们来说这个比我想象的数字我会以为在这一波当中我们应该可以recruit更多的人才很显然包括所提出的条件还有报名还有我们所录取的部分可能据院长所当初所规定的计划可能还是有一段距离因为只有两个礼拜\n\n12:15.914 --> 12:35.380\n因為我們在這只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去而且這裡面院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的權利配合\n\n12:38.001 --> 12:42.845\n還是再一次一如我一剛才站在台上的時候中研院雖然附屬於總統下面的一個單位但是我覺得發言要本朱你所看到的一個事實不要還沒有發生的狀況你反而率先來去做這樣的一個處理我們一向如此這會就引起人大恐慌這點是本席今天一定要以正視聽我們並沒有在這個地方影響三千人的這樣的生計也沒有因為我們任何部分來影響中研院對於人才來培育或是對國外\n\n13:03.502 --> 13:09.732\n所謂這個我們科研人員對台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援\n\n13:11.286 --> 13:33.492\n謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你就相信我們不會在對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝\n\n13:37.881 --> 13:39.597\n好謝謝柯之恩委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":7.976,"text":"科智恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長"},{"start":10.831,"end":32.028,"text":"科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中大概是學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意"},{"start":34.73,"end":60.848,"text":"好我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗"},{"start":61.488,"end":82.306,"text":"这是在跟委员沟通之前是没错你觉得我们可能以我们跟中研院的默契我们会把你们这样的经费删到一块钱吗你觉得有可能吗有需要这份大动作来告诉大家我们可能会影响到中研院每一个人的生计吗我觉得有必要做这样一个声纹吗一块钱不是我们讲的"},{"start":82.666,"end":102.813,"text":"那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前"},{"start":103.553,"end":121.2,"text":"沒有道理去告訴好像是就一副我們就會把中研院影響到每一個造成非常大的一個訊息上的混淆這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中"},{"start":122.68,"end":151.494,"text":"提出这个很大的删减项目我们当初也立即跟三个党团的负责人召委来协商但是都不得此项我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了"},{"start":152.074,"end":166.365,"text":"你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來"},{"start":175.972,"end":193.398,"text":"好 那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子还有出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的15可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看以113年跟114年来说我们就算是山减就是我们统三大概是差距是1.01%"},{"start":201.221,"end":221.746,"text":"但是呢你以国外的差旅费来说我们增幅是13而且你的删减率说实在差10%再往下我会让院长有机会来看一下然后呢我们所冻结的这些部分当中呢当然业务费包山包海其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的差旅费当中"},{"start":228.268,"end":240.631,"text":"你認為是在我們的業務費當中是佔多少嗎因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢 凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是中研院是5000多萬元"},{"start":251.894,"end":268.548,"text":"但是你知道吗虽然这个地方不能挪用还有一笔基金不是在我们今天讨论范围就是你114年度的你科研基金编列的差旅费是多少吗你知道比113年科研基金的里面的差旅费也是你们可以使用的告诉院长增加了7047增幅是51.44%"},{"start":272.952,"end":293.982,"text":"所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的车旅费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分"},{"start":294.902,"end":316.756,"text":"我只是告诉你院长的解方你不能告诉我你因为没有这些公务预算大家都好像不认为我们就是学术的这个研究所影响你的科研基金我告诉院长你科研基金通常来说你基金政府机关即便没有经过三读你们还是会先用了再说而且都是到年底才敢审完"},{"start":317.336,"end":326.974,"text":"所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行啊"},{"start":327.927,"end":330.709,"text":"據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎"},{"start":350.103,"end":356.412,"text":"你如果看到主計處所公布的這樣的一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管"},{"start":365.686,"end":382.488,"text":"基本上面你们只要提得出合理的方法有基金的预算我们都完全来同意我只是要告诉你中研院不是没有钱有不同的方式你可以来让我们这些科研人员都还是有办法得到非常好的一个照顾就是在教文会达到这个目标我们非常感谢"},{"start":383.649,"end":392.596,"text":"但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你這是你們在這次解凍來說"},{"start":399.361,"end":414.278,"text":"但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點"},{"start":418.323,"end":427.65,"text":"但是呢各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求所以這部分來怎麼樣的部分呢永遠告訴我們這個結果然後呢我們的預算中心跟我們這樣大家都還是認為你們在採購這個千萬元以上的儀器上面還是有這樣的問題需要被來做澄清的院長沒有別的方法嗎那因為這部分"},{"start":438.197,"end":454.965,"text":"越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的"},{"start":467.27,"end":494.108,"text":"那我帮你算了一下你目前为止114年超过千万的贵重仪器大概有253台其中15台已经停止运用了而过去三年当中就是111到113你贵重仪器用于发表期刊共983篇被引用的次数是7182次算起来三年平均一台发表四篇论文被引用30次你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信"},{"start":494.448,"end":509.734,"text":"很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個我完全同意我只是說寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事"},{"start":524.38,"end":545.434,"text":"這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在刀口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為刀口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭大家都可以用"},{"start":548.236,"end":554.502,"text":"那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚,能夠來說服我們立法院院政卿,來說服我們的審計部然後呢,特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢,也還是被點出來了,預算值許率偏低,以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留"},{"start":572.157,"end":582.24,"text":"那如果是有注意提升的水準的話那我們當然都會願意的支持但是你不合效益中一立體算都在做預算保留多年沒有動用到這個計劃那你這個部分裡面要嘛就緩半否則你就要用在這個部分還是一句話嘛你怎麼樣來經濟嘛這還是呈現出這樣的一個數字出來啊"},{"start":591.944,"end":601.912,"text":"這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研"},{"start":608.737,"end":624.118,"text":"永远是领先的我们预算至少是一年半因为你们流用的方式你们缓编的方式其实是太多年的所以这又是被提出来是我们希望这个立法院预算中心我们刚才解释了好几年我们希望再次能够沟通希望大家能够了解"},{"start":624.258,"end":624.758,"text":"好好去沟通"},{"start":654.258,"end":654.318,"text":"对不对"},{"start":680.675,"end":709.856,"text":"这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提到我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力了因为你们现在目前为止"},{"start":710.256,"end":735.194,"text":"我们会非常努力对啊你的精英博士班的快速入学计划里面目前来说第一波以台湾学生为主到目前为止也只有22个人申请而且最终录取11个人这些对我们来说这个比我想象的数字我会以为在这一波当中我们应该可以recruit更多的人才很显然包括所提出的条件还有报名还有我们所录取的部分可能据院长所当初所规定的计划可能还是有一段距离因为只有两个礼拜"},{"start":735.914,"end":755.38,"text":"因為我們在這只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去而且這裡面院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的權利配合"},{"start":758.001,"end":762.845,"text":"還是再一次一如我一剛才站在台上的時候中研院雖然附屬於總統下面的一個單位但是我覺得發言要本朱你所看到的一個事實不要還沒有發生的狀況你反而率先來去做這樣的一個處理我們一向如此這會就引起人大恐慌這點是本席今天一定要以正視聽我們並沒有在這個地方影響三千人的這樣的生計也沒有因為我們任何部分來影響中研院對於人才來培育或是對國外"},{"start":783.502,"end":789.732,"text":"所謂這個我們科研人員對台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援"},{"start":791.286,"end":813.492,"text":"謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你就相信我們不會在對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝"},{"start":817.881,"end":819.597,"text":"好 謝謝柯之恩委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":141,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時21分）謝謝召委，我們是不是請廖院長？"],["主席：請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：院長早。我想今天在場的不管是核安會或是中研院，大概是本院當中學歷最高的，所以每個人都應該用證據來說話。這個解凍案不僅要看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準，其實也要做一些訊息的釐清，這點院長應該同意？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我們就先來看，今年初我們在處理預算的時候，還沒有定論之前就有非常多人告訴我們，很多的業務費會被刪減到只剩下1塊錢，而且中研院也發布了，為了全國科學研究跟人才培育來請命，有3,000位約聘助理的薪資可能會因為遭到刪減或凍結將影響到同仁的生計。請問院長，這件事情有發生嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這是在跟委員溝通之前，沒錯，那溝通之後……"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得以我們跟中研院的默契，我們會把你們這樣的經費刪到1塊錢嗎？你覺得有可能嗎？有需要這麼大動作來告訴大家，我們可能會影響到中研院每一個人的生計嗎？有必要做這樣的聲明嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：1塊錢不是我們講的！"],["柯委員志恩：那有必要做這樣的聲明嗎？你看媒體的報導這麼多，或許不是你講，但是有非常多的媒體這樣處理，中研院還是做這樣聲明……"],["廖院長俊智：因為我們當初……"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我只能告訴你，本委員會對中研院是非常的支持。"],["廖院長俊智：我們非常感謝。"],["柯委員志恩：而且這樣的訊息以你們的判斷，在沒有得到實際的數字之前，好像一副我們會影響到中研院每一個人，造成非常大的訊息上混淆，這點是本席要強烈提出來抗議的！"],["廖院長俊智：報告委員，當初我們非常感謝教文會的大力協助，可是在院會當中提出很大的刪減項目。我們當初也立即跟3個黨團的負責人、召委來協商，但是都……"],["柯委員志恩：我們就一一來看，我現在先表明，恐付不出3,000人的薪水不應該是由中研院來指出，而且也不可能會發生！事實證明到現在為止也沒有發生，這是我一定要提到的！"],["廖院長俊智：後來我們溝通之後確實是可以了。"],["柯委員志恩：你沒有溝通，到最後的協商、最後的結果也會是這樣子，沒有人會去對中研院的預算……你應該從過去、長期以來就要對我們有信心！這是我第一個要提到的。"],["廖院長俊智：非常感謝委員指正。"],["柯委員志恩：你們發這樣的訊息讓大家都傻眼，以我們跟你們的默契，不應該有這樣的狀況。"],["廖院長俊智：這不是跟教委會，這是因為……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那我們就一一來看到底影響有多少？業務費被凍結了12億元，我們就舉個例子，包括出差費之類的，你告訴我們被砍了15%，可能會影響到國際社會認為臺灣不重視科研，我們就一一來看，以113年跟114年來說，我們就算是刪減、統刪，差距大概是1.01%，但是以國外的差旅費來說，增幅是13%，而且刪減率，說實在差10%。我會讓院長有機會來看一下，我們所凍結的這些部分當中，當然業務費包山包海，其中國外旅費，大陸大概刪了30%，國外大概刪了15%。院長，你認為國外的差旅費在業務費當中占多少？"],["廖院長俊智：因為主要是不得流用這一項讓我們非常……"],["柯委員志恩：我們再來看，我們試圖來找出解方。事實上，國外差旅費占整體業務費的1.71%，凍結的部分我幫你算出來了，金額是3,635萬，如果加上預算統刪，中研院大概是五千多萬元，但是你知道嗎？雖然這個地方不能挪用，但還有一筆基金不在我們今天討論的範圍，你知道114年度的科研基金編列多少差旅費嗎？科研基金裡面的差旅費也是你們可以使用的，本席告訴院長，增加了7,047萬，增幅是51.4%，所以不管是國外的旅費或是大陸的旅費都大幅地增加，其中國外的差旅費甚至超過六成，大陸已經超過5倍，完全超過這一次公務預算刪凍的部分，院長，你有沒有看到這個？"],["廖院長俊智：這是因為今年起，由於COVID-19已經全面解除，所以我們從今年開始突然間增加很多，各所都有需要、各個計畫都有需要……"],["柯委員志恩：你可以來做這個部分，我只是告訴院長這個解方，你不能告訴我你沒有這些公務預算導致大家好像都認為我們不重視，讓學術研究受到影響。我告訴院長，通常來說，你的科研基金即便沒有經過三讀，你們都還是先用了再說，而且都是到年底才審完，即使我們在一般公務預算有刪減，這個基金還是可以來做這樣的使用，你何來告訴我中研院沒有錢讓這些學術單位出國去旅行呢？"],["廖院長俊智：據我了解，這分兩個部分，因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫、各所中心，不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用，所以每一個人……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是告訴你，當然……"],["廖院長俊智：我們事後都有做各項的調節……"],["柯委員志恩：但是這個部分裡面，你還是可以透過不同的方法，而且我還要直指院長，你們中研院的編法其實有違反原則，你知道嗎？你如果看到主計處所公布附屬機關裡面的特別基金，特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費，不能夠超過前一年的預算數，中研院這次編的還是有超過，雖然我們都可以不用管，基本上，你們只要提得出合理的方法，基金預算我們都會完全同意，我只是要告訴你，中研院不是沒有錢，你有不同的方式可以讓這些科研人員都還是有辦法得到非常好的照顧。"],["廖院長俊智：是，在教文會達到這個目標，我們非常感謝。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你的科研基金就是比過去多了54%，你還是可以來使用，不要告訴我中研院沒有錢，這是我沒辦法接受的。","接下來，我們再看凍結這個部分。關於儀器方面，以你們在這次的解凍來說，我還是要請教院長，每一次有關貴重儀器，特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器，常常被審計部跟立法院預算中心認為使用不佳，你們今天告訴我們的方式是什麼呢？發函給全國大專院校，請大家踴躍來使用，然後說預算會便宜一點，但是各校並沒有像中研院一樣有這麼高強度的研究能量或是需求，告訴我們這樣的結果，預算中心跟大家都還是認為你們在採購千萬元以上的儀器方面有這樣的問題需要來澄清，院長沒有別的方法嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：因為越高階的儀器使用的人當然越來越少，要漸漸普及，但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器，因為全國、全世界只有少數人在用，但為了要跟全世界競爭，我們也必須要……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意，但是院長要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面所寫的，儀器的價值不該單以使用率來呈現，我都很仔細看你們寫的報告，要讓儀器的價值反映在期刊發表跟論文引用的次數上面，這是你們告訴我們的。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我幫你算了一下，到目前為止，114年超過千萬的貴重儀器大概有253臺，其中15臺已經停止運用了，而過去三年當中，就是111年到113年，貴重儀器用於發表期刊共983篇，被引用的次數是7,182次，算起來三年平均一臺發表4篇論文，被引用30次，你覺得這樣子的引用價值符合院長的期待嗎？符合你所說的價值嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我相信很多人用這些儀器，並沒有完全把每一臺儀器都引用在論文……"],["柯委員志恩：你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上，我只根據你的解凍報告來請教院長。"],["廖院長俊智：因為解凍報告可能寫得沒有完全符合實際的狀況，大家真正做研究的時候沒有辦法以寫立法院報告的心態來寫論文……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意，我只是說這是你的……"],["廖院長俊智：寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事。"],["柯委員志恩：這就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們，我只是告訴院長，這個報告的說法其實很難說服我們，然後再加上過去預算中心認為使用的頻率不佳，很希望預算能夠用在刀口上，讓所謂的研究更具有成效……"],["廖院長俊智：就是因為刀口，所以非常尖，只有少數人可以用……"],["柯委員志恩：那你就讓報告裡面的……"],["廖院長俊智：不是個榔頭，大家都可以敲得到……"],["柯委員志恩：那就請院長在報告裡面可以陳述得更清楚，能夠來說服立法院、來說服審計部。"],["廖院長俊智：好，感謝，這個我們一定改進。"],["柯委員志恩：然後還有特別提到中研院編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產，你要建構實驗跟研究用的儀器，但也還是被點出來預算的執行率偏低，以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留。如果是有助於提升水準，我們當然都會願意支持，但是你不合效率，都在做預算保留，多年沒有動用到這個計畫，這個部分要嘛就緩辦，否則就要用在這個部分，還是一句話，你要怎麼樣來精進嘛？因為還是呈現出這樣的數字出來啊！"],["廖院長俊智：好，這部分我們會想辦法改進，但原因是很多儀器等到我們編到預算的時候，儀器已經又精進了，我們就必須要重新再……"],["柯委員志恩：那這部分你們要怎麼解決？因為你在數字上永遠會呈現這個樣子。"],["廖院長俊智：是，這個是比較麻煩的，因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度，全世界的科研永遠是領先的，但我們的預算至少一年半前就要編……"],["柯委員志恩：因為你們流用的方式、你們緩編的方式其實太多年了，所以又被提出來，因為我時間的關係……"],["廖院長俊智：我們跟立法院預算中心解釋了好幾年，我們希望能夠再次溝通，希望大家能夠了解。"],["柯委員志恩：好好去溝通，否則你的數字永遠印在這個地方，永遠沒有辦法說服。"],["廖院長俊智：好，感謝。"],["柯委員志恩：最後提到關於人才培育凍結30%的部分，到底是重質還是重量？你們看一下，為了提高國際的傑出人才有意願到臺灣來，你們提出了國際研究生的學程，好像每一年都有持續增加，但是2022年錄取率是12.2%，現在下降到4.6%，你們給我的研究報告是說因為你們都要找其中的佼佼者，院長，這個我就有意見了。如果你今天告訴我同樣是錄取20位好了，這是一個基本的底數，第一年是200個人來報考，你告訴我比例多少？然後第二年有四百多人報考，還是錄取20個人，所以你可以告訴我，你選擇其中的佼佼者，可是並不是這樣子啊！這裡面所透露的一個訊息、在數字背後可能是所來的人都不是你們要的人，你們找不到你們要的人，這也可能是這樣子，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：這有很多種解釋方法，當然有一些不是我們要的人，但是有很多也確實是不錯的，所以我們的錄取水準確實是有提高……"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得我們還是要誠實面對臺灣整個研究的team、研究的環境……"],["廖院長俊智：這個我同意。"],["柯委員志恩：事實上很困難，川普已經把很多人才外放到不同的國家，臺灣就要利用這一波，要能夠吸引國際的人才，我覺得這還是需要非常大的努力啦！因為你們目前為止……"],["廖院長俊智：是，我們會非常努力……"],["柯委員志恩：對，菁英博士班的快速入學計畫，目前第一波以臺灣學生為主，到目前為止只有22個人申請，最終錄取11個人，這些對我們來說，這個比我想像的數字……我會以為在這一波當中，我們應該可以recruit更多的人才，很顯然的，包括我們所提出的條件、報名，還有所錄取的部分，可能跟院長當初所制定的計畫還有一段距離。"],["廖院長俊智：因為只有兩個禮拜，我們現在就只有兩個禮拜而已，從我們宣布到截止，只有兩個禮拜。"],["柯委員志恩：那你就下次……"],["廖院長俊智：因為我們必須要有一個時程，不能夠永遠無限期的下去，而且這裡面……"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我只是提出來，人才是臺灣最大的資產，中研院要負起這樣的角色，所有需要的預算我們會全力配合。"],["廖院長俊智：好，感謝。"],["柯委員志恩：但我還是再一次，一如我一開始站在臺上說的，中研院雖然附屬於總統府下面的單位，但是我覺得發言要本著你所看到的事實，不要還沒有發生的狀況，你反而率先來去做這樣的處理……"],["廖院長俊智：我們一向如此……"],["柯委員志恩：這就會引起很大的恐慌，這點本席今天一定要以正視聽，我們並沒有在這個地方影響3,000人的生計，也沒有因為我們而影響中研院對於人才的培育或是國外科研人員被臺灣看到，本席在這個地方要強力聲援。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝，我們再次強調那個聲明確實在協商之前是有這樣的狀況，協商之後就沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，協商只是過程，結果才是最重要的。在協商的過程中，你卻用這樣的方式，我覺得這個才是最大的問題。"],["廖院長俊智：當初我們想要協商被……"],["柯委員志恩：即使沒有做這樣的協商，請相信我們不會對中研院在這個層面上這樣做。"],["廖院長俊智：非常感謝！"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：謝謝柯志恩委員。院長請回座。","接下來請葛如鈞召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}}