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\"偉\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,312 --> 00:00:05,661\n好謝謝趙葦有請何安慧主委好有請何安慧陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:16,053 --> 00:00:43,684\n委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆了說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號\n\n3\n00:00:45,410 --> 00:01:01,626\n其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊核安會要修完執法才能評估\n\n4\n00:01:03,578 --> 00:01:15,777\n那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛\n\n5\n00:01:17,662 --> 00:01:45,927\n那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照\n\n6\n00:01:46,727 --> 00:02:13,564\n但是依據國安核安會的說法你說要踢給他他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任台電的責任還是現在像他們講的啊求在你們核安會這裡啊你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下\n\n7\n00:02:16,630 --> 00:02:30,786\n在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订\n\n8\n00:02:33,089 --> 00:02:59,667\n執法是指的核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球全國人民\n\n9\n00:03:00,828 --> 00:03:15,677\n你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長\n\n10\n00:03:22,025 --> 00:03:37,245\n這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的\n\n11\n00:03:39,122 --> 00:04:05,849\n范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛要申請戶的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做原來四個要求還要做還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好主委所以你說台電把球踢給你你把球踢給他他再踢給你你踢給我們你踢給全國人民那我想問啦我們現在把球踢給你請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛\n\n12\n00:04:06,489 --> 00:04:23,404\n什麼時候修這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的球不能一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為前面作為加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來\n\n13\n00:04:24,085 --> 00:04:38,850\n不好意思主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問再進一步問\n\n14\n00:04:39,790 --> 00:05:06,116\n不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的\n\n15\n00:05:08,536 --> 00:05:25,798\n河安河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做請主長回答\n\n16\n00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:46,252\n事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是要必須要維持住好這一點想請何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個\n\n17\n00:05:49,093 --> 00:06:13,683\n我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才\n\n18\n00:06:15,083 --> 00:06:30,670\n那我講關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年\n\n19\n00:06:41,045 --> 00:06:54,981\n則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國\n\n20\n00:06:55,982 --> 00:07:21,735\n微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大\n\n21\n00:07:22,375 --> 00:07:35,407\n那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院\n\n22\n00:07:51,120 --> 00:08:05,411\n請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算\n\n23\n00:08:07,392 --> 00:08:32,392\n我們租位來的有增加了1800萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到3600萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是4.8億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中應該我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的\n\n24\n00:08:33,372 --> 00:08:55,991\n我是說你這個單位是個位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧\n\n25\n00:08:58,467 --> 00:09:26,232\n是稍微我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立\n\n26\n00:09:27,092 --> 00:09:50,043\n現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長\n\n27\n00:09:52,936 --> 00:10:10,776\n有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說\n\n28\n00:10:13,078 --> 00:10:28,180\n我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊\n\n29\n00:10:29,642 --> 00:10:34,785\n剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的我們講的說是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們我們有去溝通這個問題就迎刃而解了\n\n30\n00:11:00,057 --> 00:11:10,605\n是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發佈一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好謝謝再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院\n\n31\n00:11:17,390 --> 00:11:30,867\n過去我跟您請教過淨零五支建沒有包含核能一次那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻\n\n32\n00:11:32,108 --> 00:11:49,144\n那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下\n\n33\n00:11:49,864 --> 00:12:11,735\n5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長\n\n34\n00:12:12,595 --> 00:12:37,264\n那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的科學是中立的核安的核工的核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待的我目前沒有核能核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入\n\n35\n00:12:38,344 --> 00:13:02,612\n而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長、更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好,院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的\n\n36\n00:13:03,772 --> 00:13:23,870\n但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是\n\n37\n00:13:24,671 --> 00:13:45,044\n這些基礎材料又不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去聘核工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在中央醫院會變成無用武之地所以中央醫院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才沒有我們沒有任何人做這方面的\n\n38\n00:13:45,902 --> 00:14:11,572\n所以現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣示他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的\n\n39\n00:14:13,433 --> 00:14:40,553\n自己研發出來可能要到哪一年呢所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制啦對啦不能講說放棄啦就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙我們一定幫忙啊那假如沒有這個需求的話那我們提供基礎研究方面中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持我只是提醒各位我們良好良善互動\n\n40\n00:14:41,454 --> 00:15:00,889\n賴清德總統有宣示了新核能可以考慮那我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家我們一起幫他準備好那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁令五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了\n\n41\n00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:18,481\n金陵五支箭變金陵五加一好不好金陵五加一這個一可以是新核能金陵五支箭的最主要的用意是中央院能夠主導核能是中央院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國園院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國園院遠比我們這個在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達\n\n42\n00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:44,078\n如果中研院的學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中研院主導\n\n43\n00:15:56,165 --> 00:16:19,779\n縱橫院不能做全國所有的事情縱橫院有縱橫院自己的定位有縱橫院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這點同意吧所以您的高度\n\n44\n00:16:20,459 --> 00:16:48,450\n有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾\n\n45\n00:16:49,130 --> 00:17:18,276\n我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間我想張偉晉站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣\n\n46\n00:17:20,397 --> 00:17:26,461\n來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好謝謝院長謝謝趙偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2312\t5661\t好 謝謝趙葦 有請何安慧主委好 有請何安慧陳主委\n16053\t43684\t委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆了說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號\n45410\t61626\t其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號 核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊 核安會要修完執法才能評估\n63578\t75777\t那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛\n77662\t105927\t那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照\n106727\t133564\t但是依據國安 核安會的說法你說要踢給他 他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的 哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任 台電的責任還是現在像他們講的啊 求在你們核安會這裡啊你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下\n136630\t150786\t在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订\n153089\t179667\t執法是指的核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思 主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球 全國人民\n180828\t195677\t你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長\n202025\t217245\t這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的\n219122\t245849\t范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛 要申請戶的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做 原來四個要求還要做 還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好 主委所以你說台電把球踢給你 你把球踢給他他再踢給你 你踢給我們 你踢給全國人民那我想問啦 我們現在把球踢給你 請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛\n246489\t263404\t什麼時候修 這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的球不能一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為 前面作為 加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來\n264085\t278850\t不好意思 主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問 再進一步問\n279790\t306116\t不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的\n308536\t325798\t河安 河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要 別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做 請主長回答\n327600\t346252\t事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是要必須要維持住好這一點想請何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個\n349093\t373683\t我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才\n375083\t390670\t那我講關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年\n401045\t414981\t則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國\n415982\t441735\t微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大\n442375\t455407\t那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院\n471120\t485411\t請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告 格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算\n487392\t512392\t我們租位來的有增加了1800萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到3600萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是4.8億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中應該我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的\n513372\t535991\t我是說你這個單位是個位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧\n538467\t566232\t是 稍微 我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式 包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立\n567092\t590043\t現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長\n592936\t610776\t有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說\n613078\t628180\t我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊\n629642\t634785\t剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的我們講的說是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們我們有去溝通這個問題就迎刃而解了\n660057\t670605\t是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發佈一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好 謝謝再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院\n677390\t690867\t過去我跟您請教過 淨零五支建沒有包含核能一次那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻\n692108\t709144\t那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下\n709864\t731735\t5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長\n732595\t757264\t那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的 科學是中立的核安的 核工的 核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待的我目前沒有核能 核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入\n758344\t782612\t而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長、更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好,院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的\n783772\t803870\t但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是\n804671\t825044\t這些基礎材料又不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去聘核工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在中央醫院會變成無用武之地所以中央醫院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才沒有 我們沒有任何人做這方面的\n825902\t851572\t所以現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣示他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的\n853433\t880553\t自己研發出來可能要到哪一年呢所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制啦對啦 不能講說放棄啦就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙 我們一定幫忙啊那假如沒有這個需求的話那我們提供基礎研究方面中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持我只是提醒各位我們良好 良善互動\n881454\t900889\t賴清德總統有宣示了新核能可以考慮那我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家我們一起幫他準備好那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁令五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了\n902290\t918481\t金陵五支箭變金陵五加一好不好金陵五加一這個一可以是新核能金陵五支箭的最主要的用意是中央院能夠主導核能是中央院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國園院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國園院遠比我們這個在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達\n932310\t944078\t如果中研院的學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中研院主導\n956165\t979779\t縱橫院不能做全國所有的事情縱橫院有縱橫院自己的定位有縱橫院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這點同意吧所以您的高度\n980459\t1008450\t有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾\n1009130\t1038276\t我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間我想張偉晉站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣\n1040397\t1046461\t來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好 謝謝院長謝謝趙偉\n","txt":"好 謝謝趙葦 有請何安慧主委好 有請何安慧陳主委\n委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆了說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號\n其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號 核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊 核安會要修完執法才能評估\n那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛\n那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照\n但是依據國安 核安會的說法你說要踢給他 他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的 哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任 台電的責任還是現在像他們講的啊 求在你們核安會這裡啊你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下\n在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订\n執法是指的核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思 主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球 全國人民\n你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長\n這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的\n范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛 要申請戶的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做 原來四個要求還要做 還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好 主委所以你說台電把球踢給你 你把球踢給他他再踢給你 你踢給我們 你踢給全國人民那我想問啦 我們現在把球踢給你 請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛\n什麼時候修 這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的球不能一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為 前面作為 加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來\n不好意思 主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問 再進一步問\n不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的\n河安 河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要 別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做 請主長回答\n事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是要必須要維持住好這一點想請何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個\n我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才\n那我講關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年\n則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國\n微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大\n那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院\n請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告 格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算\n我們租位來的有增加了1800萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到3600萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是4.8億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中應該我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的\n我是說你這個單位是個位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧\n是 稍微 我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式 包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立\n現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長\n有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說\n我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊\n剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的我們講的說是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們我們有去溝通這個問題就迎刃而解了\n是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發佈一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好 謝謝再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院\n過去我跟您請教過 淨零五支建沒有包含核能一次那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻\n那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下\n5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長\n那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的 科學是中立的核安的 核工的 核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待的我目前沒有核能 核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入\n而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長、更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好,院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的\n但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是\n這些基礎材料又不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去聘核工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在中央醫院會變成無用武之地所以中央醫院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才沒有 我們沒有任何人做這方面的\n所以現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣示他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的\n自己研發出來可能要到哪一年呢所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制啦對啦 不能講說放棄啦就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙 我們一定幫忙啊那假如沒有這個需求的話那我們提供基礎研究方面中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持我只是提醒各位我們良好 良善互動\n賴清德總統有宣示了新核能可以考慮那我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家我們一起幫他準備好那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁令五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了\n金陵五支箭變金陵五加一好不好金陵五加一這個一可以是新核能金陵五支箭的最主要的用意是中央院能夠主導核能是中央院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國園院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國園院遠比我們這個在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達\n如果中研院的學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中研院主導\n縱橫院不能做全國所有的事情縱橫院有縱橫院自己的定位有縱橫院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這點同意吧所以您的高度\n有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾\n我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間我想張偉晉站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣\n來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好 謝謝院長謝謝趙偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.312 --> 00:05.661\n好謝謝趙葦有請何安慧主委好有請何安慧陳主委\n\n00:16.053 --> 00:43.684\n委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆了說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號\n\n00:45.410 --> 01:01.626\n其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊核安會要修完執法才能評估\n\n01:03.578 --> 01:15.777\n那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛\n\n01:17.662 --> 01:45.927\n那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照\n\n01:46.727 --> 02:13.564\n但是依據國安核安會的說法你說要踢給他他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任台電的責任還是現在像他們講的啊求在你們核安會這裡啊你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下\n\n02:16.630 --> 02:30.786\n在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订\n\n02:33.089 --> 02:59.667\n執法是指的核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球全國人民\n\n03:00.828 --> 03:15.677\n你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長\n\n03:22.025 --> 03:37.245\n這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的\n\n03:39.122 --> 04:05.849\n范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛要申請戶的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做原來四個要求還要做還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好主委所以你說台電把球踢給你你把球踢給他他再踢給你你踢給我們你踢給全國人民那我想問啦我們現在把球踢給你請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛\n\n04:06.489 --> 04:23.404\n什麼時候修這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的球不能一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為前面作為加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來\n\n04:24.085 --> 04:38.850\n不好意思主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問再進一步問\n\n04:39.790 --> 05:06.116\n不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的\n\n05:08.536 --> 05:25.798\n河安河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做請主長回答\n\n05:27.600 --> 05:46.252\n事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是要必須要維持住好這一點想請何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個\n\n05:49.093 --> 06:13.683\n我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才\n\n06:15.083 --> 06:30.670\n那我講關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年\n\n06:41.045 --> 06:54.981\n則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國\n\n06:55.982 --> 07:21.735\n微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大\n\n07:22.375 --> 07:35.407\n那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院\n\n07:51.120 --> 08:05.411\n請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算\n\n08:07.392 --> 08:32.392\n我們租位來的有增加了1800萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到3600萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是4.8億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中應該我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的\n\n08:33.372 --> 08:55.991\n我是說你這個單位是個位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧\n\n08:58.467 --> 09:26.232\n是稍微我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立\n\n09:27.092 --> 09:50.043\n現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長\n\n09:52.936 --> 10:10.776\n有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說\n\n10:13.078 --> 10:28.180\n我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊\n\n10:29.642 --> 10:34.785\n剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的我們講的說是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們我們有去溝通這個問題就迎刃而解了\n\n11:00.057 --> 11:10.605\n是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發佈一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好謝謝再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院\n\n11:17.390 --> 11:30.867\n過去我跟您請教過淨零五支建沒有包含核能一次那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻\n\n11:32.108 --> 11:49.144\n那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下\n\n11:49.864 --> 12:11.735\n5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長\n\n12:12.595 --> 12:37.264\n那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的科學是中立的核安的核工的核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待的我目前沒有核能核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入\n\n12:38.344 --> 13:02.612\n而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長、更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好,院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的\n\n13:03.772 --> 13:23.870\n但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是\n\n13:24.671 --> 13:45.044\n這些基礎材料又不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去聘核工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在中央醫院會變成無用武之地所以中央醫院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才沒有我們沒有任何人做這方面的\n\n13:45.902 --> 14:11.572\n所以現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣示他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的\n\n14:13.433 --> 14:40.553\n自己研發出來可能要到哪一年呢所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制啦對啦不能講說放棄啦就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙我們一定幫忙啊那假如沒有這個需求的話那我們提供基礎研究方面中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持我只是提醒各位我們良好良善互動\n\n14:41.454 --> 15:00.889\n賴清德總統有宣示了新核能可以考慮那我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家我們一起幫他準備好那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁令五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了\n\n15:02.290 --> 15:18.481\n金陵五支箭變金陵五加一好不好金陵五加一這個一可以是新核能金陵五支箭的最主要的用意是中央院能夠主導核能是中央院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國園院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國園院遠比我們這個在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達\n\n15:32.310 --> 15:44.078\n如果中研院的學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中研院主導\n\n15:56.165 --> 16:19.779\n縱橫院不能做全國所有的事情縱橫院有縱橫院自己的定位有縱橫院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這點同意吧所以您的高度\n\n16:20.459 --> 16:48.450\n有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾\n\n16:49.130 --> 17:18.276\n我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間我想張偉晉站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣\n\n17:20.397 --> 17:26.461\n來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好謝謝院長謝謝趙偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.312,"end":5.661,"text":"好 謝謝趙葦 有請何安慧主委好 有請何安慧陳主委"},{"start":16.053,"end":43.684,"text":"委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆了說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號"},{"start":45.41,"end":61.626,"text":"其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號 核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊 核安會要修完執法才能評估"},{"start":63.578,"end":75.777,"text":"那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛"},{"start":77.662,"end":105.927,"text":"那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照"},{"start":106.727,"end":133.564,"text":"但是依據國安 核安會的說法你說要踢給他 他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的 哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任 台電的責任還是現在像他們講的啊 求在你們核安會這裡啊你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下"},{"start":136.63,"end":150.786,"text":"在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订"},{"start":153.089,"end":179.667,"text":"執法是指的核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思 主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球 全國人民"},{"start":180.828,"end":195.677,"text":"你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長"},{"start":202.025,"end":217.245,"text":"這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的"},{"start":219.122,"end":245.849,"text":"范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛 要申請戶的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做 原來四個要求還要做 還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好 主委所以你說台電把球踢給你 你把球踢給他他再踢給你 你踢給我們 你踢給全國人民那我想問啦 我們現在把球踢給你 請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛"},{"start":246.489,"end":263.404,"text":"什麼時候修 這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的球不能一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為 前面作為 加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來"},{"start":264.085,"end":278.85,"text":"不好意思 主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問 再進一步問"},{"start":279.79,"end":306.116,"text":"不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的"},{"start":308.536,"end":325.798,"text":"河安 河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要 別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做 請主長回答"},{"start":327.6,"end":346.252,"text":"事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是要必須要維持住好這一點想請何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個"},{"start":349.093,"end":373.683,"text":"我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才"},{"start":375.083,"end":390.67,"text":"那我講關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年"},{"start":401.045,"end":414.981,"text":"則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國"},{"start":415.982,"end":441.735,"text":"微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大"},{"start":442.375,"end":455.407,"text":"那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院"},{"start":471.12,"end":485.411,"text":"請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告 格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算"},{"start":487.392,"end":512.392,"text":"我們租位來的有增加了1800萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到3600萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是4.8億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中應該我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的"},{"start":513.372,"end":535.991,"text":"我是說你這個單位是個位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧"},{"start":538.467,"end":566.232,"text":"是 稍微 我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式 包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立"},{"start":567.092,"end":590.043,"text":"現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長"},{"start":592.936,"end":610.776,"text":"有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說"},{"start":613.078,"end":628.18,"text":"我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊"},{"start":629.642,"end":634.785,"text":"剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的我們講的說是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們我們有去溝通這個問題就迎刃而解了"},{"start":660.057,"end":670.605,"text":"是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發佈一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好 謝謝再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院"},{"start":677.39,"end":690.867,"text":"過去我跟您請教過 淨零五支建沒有包含核能一次那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻"},{"start":692.108,"end":709.144,"text":"那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下"},{"start":709.864,"end":731.735,"text":"5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長"},{"start":732.595,"end":757.264,"text":"那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的 科學是中立的核安的 核工的 核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待的我目前沒有核能 核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入"},{"start":758.344,"end":782.612,"text":"而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長、更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好,院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的"},{"start":783.772,"end":803.87,"text":"但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是"},{"start":804.671,"end":825.044,"text":"這些基礎材料又不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去聘核工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在中央醫院會變成無用武之地所以中央醫院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才沒有 我們沒有任何人做這方面的"},{"start":825.902,"end":851.572,"text":"所以現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣示他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的"},{"start":853.433,"end":880.553,"text":"自己研發出來可能要到哪一年呢所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制啦對啦 不能講說放棄啦就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙 我們一定幫忙啊那假如沒有這個需求的話那我們提供基礎研究方面中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持我只是提醒各位我們良好 良善互動"},{"start":881.454,"end":900.889,"text":"賴清德總統有宣示了新核能可以考慮那我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家我們一起幫他準備好那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁令五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了"},{"start":902.29,"end":918.481,"text":"金陵五支箭變金陵五加一好不好金陵五加一這個一可以是新核能金陵五支箭的最主要的用意是中央院能夠主導核能是中央院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國園院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國園院遠比我們這個在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達"},{"start":932.31,"end":944.078,"text":"如果中研院的學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中研院主導"},{"start":956.165,"end":979.779,"text":"縱橫院不能做全國所有的事情縱橫院有縱橫院自己的定位有縱橫院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這點同意吧所以您的高度"},{"start":980.459,"end":1008.45,"text":"有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾"},{"start":1009.13,"end":1038.276,"text":"我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間我想張偉晉站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣"},{"start":1040.397,"end":1046.461,"text":"來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好 謝謝院長謝謝趙偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時35分）謝謝召委。有請核安會主委。"],["主席：有請核安會陳主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。我們負責任的在野黨說到做到，您來我的辦公室拜會的時候，我們也有提到希望理性的看待核能的議題，您也不小心回復說核能議題是政治議題。我想今天我們有機會回歸理性，上個禮拜二、5月13日核管法修法三讀通過，然而至今已過了幾天？在今天5月21日還沒看到相關的動作。","5月17日核三廠2號機停機，台電到目前為止還沒有提出延役的申請，經濟部對這件事情發出新聞稿表示核安會要修完子法才能評估。我想修法的內容主委應該看過，就是如果需要核電就由台電提出，核安會進行相關後續處理。台電說是核安會沒修子法，馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了，我想核安會也很負責，我在此肯定，你們也發了相關新聞稿說明，其實現行規定就可以評估並且決定提出換照的申請。","這一顆球你踢給它就是踢得對、踢得好，因為在法規上確實是它要主動提出申請的，沒錯，要提出換照，但是依據核安會的說法，就是你要踢給他，他又踢給你，我想確認一下，外界的民眾可能會看不懂，說政府在互踢皮球，雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的、哪一顆是錯的，但是不是請主委來評估一下，到底核三廠2號機有沒有順利延役是經濟部的責任？台電的責任？還是現在像他們講的，球在核安會這裡，你們都不修子法？可不可請你回答一下？"],["陳主任委員明真：在收到大院三讀通過的修正條文後，已經著手研議相關子法的修訂，子法指的是核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法，因為停機後再啟動會有新的要求，關於子法，我們已經在研議中，很快就會提出來公布在網站。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，主委，你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全國人民，你剛提到的相關辦法我們都幫你看過了，第十六條裡面就已經有了，還幫你劃紅字，有換照，本來就是換發嘛！申請換發執照檢附的4個報告辦法都有了啊！你到底還要改什麼子法？你要改哪裡？"],["陳主任委員明真：關於核電廠停機後的衝擊，核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態，包組織、人力訓練、程序、設備復原等，以符合繼續安全運轉之要求，當然原來的換照程序還是繼續要做……"],["葛委員如鈞：換照辦法不是已經都有了？申請要檢附的東西都有了。"],["陳主任委員明真：原來的4個要求還是繼續要做，再加上要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，所以台電把球踢給你，你把球踢給它，它再踢給你，你踢給我們，你踢給全國人民，我們現在再把球踢給你，請問什麼時候會研議完畢？我說的研議就是研究。什麼時候修？子法什麼時候弄完？你的球不能一直抱在手上嘛！"],["陳主任委員明真：OK。我們估計4個月。"],["葛委員如鈞：4個月，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，因為按照行政程序有2個月公布期間，在網路上公布，前面作業加後面作業，4個月應該可以做出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，主委，4個月的話AI可能都不知道進步幾番了？我希望能加速，但是還是以安全為前提，希望核安會主動積極儘速修正子法。","我還是要進一步問，不管是4個月，還是有人說要1年來研議其他的事情，或者院長甚至拉長說3年半，先不管是4個月、1年，還是3年半，我想問這段時間這些本來在維護運轉的核能工程專業人員，都是臺灣最寶貴的人才，我們不留住他們怎麼辦？我想問一下這段時間你4個月、他4個月，到最後加起來這批寶貴的核安、核工的專業人才要去哪裡？因為不需要運轉啊！到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們，萬一他們流失掉了，被人家搶走了，我們不要別人要，這可不可以快速回應一下？"],["陳主任委員明真：還是有工作做。請組長回應。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明。事實上在這段期間設備跟管制人力的專業必須要持續維持住，如果台電公司在未來提出申請，還是要有相關的技術人力來審查這一塊，所以人力還是必須要維持。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這一點請核安會因應。現在請國原院院長，謝謝。","我想人才非常重要，在能源政策上不管在轉換或升級方面，尤其賴總統已講過我們要有新核能，所以這些核工的人才務必留住。主委、核安會人員請回座，我一併告知各位。","另外，請教國原院院長，新核能也是需要核工的專業人才，國原院關於SMR有計畫要爭取4.8億的計畫經費，這部分本席給予肯定及支持，但是我們看了一下國原院過去4年對SMR的計畫，110、111、113年都沒有相關的計畫，112年編列100萬元新臺幣，各位沒有看錯，100萬新臺幣，今年則是編了1,500萬。其實我去年上任的時候就不斷的說SMR很重要，我們應該要早一點開始編列，當時聽到的金額都非常少。現在已經2025年了，我們看到美國的微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能，微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新臺幣的補助，亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新臺幣，那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計畫經費一千六百多萬，即便明年起增加到1年1.2億，雖然我們是支持的，但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大。賴總統喊著新核能，美國及各個國家也都非常關注我們的能源安全，可是這個落差很大啊！賴總統昨天又說要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫，預計到2030年要投入1兆元，而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆，相比起來1年1億是不是不太夠啊？可不可以請國原院跟行政院爭取補助，不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭？"],["高院長梓木：報告葛召委，事實上主委來了之後，預算有增加了1,800萬，原子能方面有跟國科會爭取到3,600萬，另外在上個月有到國科會報告，也爭取了第1年1億、4年總共4.8億的預算，目前這個公文在行政院審查中，應該……"],["葛委員如鈞：我剛剛都講了啦！院長，我跟你是站在一起的，我是說你這個單位是個位數，人家是從150億、600億起跳的。主委，我們是不是一起跟行政院多爭取一點？好歹要加個零吧！好歹要從單位數的億變成兩位數的億吧！有沒有機會啊？我們一起來為臺灣的新核能啦！總統都講了，你們是不是想要讓總統難看？不會吧？"],["高院長梓木：我們還是會積極，因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年，所以我們利用這4年先做一些研究，研究包括三種不同的反應器，包括熔鹽式、鈉冷式還有傳統的壓水式，所以我們先把這些有系統的整合，然後再做出建議。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長。現在臺灣的AI發展就是有點落後，就是因為我們看人家成功了，我們才走啦！所以現在我們要早一點投入，接下來是能源大戰，核工的人才、核工相關的預算一定要足夠，新型態的核能，現在總統已經開口了，大家要跟上，好不好？"],["高院長梓木：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，請回座。接下來有請中研院院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長好，還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來。"],["廖院長俊智：應該的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的，未來我們在溝通的過程裡面，希望可以信任委員會對中研院的支持。"],["廖院長俊智：我們對委員會是非常信任的。"],["葛委員如鈞：您讓我講完，就是在溝通上，您大可以說三千位研究人員、人才，一定要保住，我們一定幫助你保護、捍衛你們的預算，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：不要用這種負面的訴求，說你們可能會沒有工作，好不好？這樣我覺得……"],["廖院長俊智：我們沒有這樣說。"],["葛委員如鈞：剛剛那個新聞稿上面是說「中研院：」。"],["廖院長俊智：No，那是媒體講的，我們講的是假如照這個的話，會產生什麼結果，因為那個時候我們不得其門而入，沒有辦法跟黨團溝通，所以只好大聲疾呼，假如沒有溝通，下去會很麻煩，事後確實各黨團有接見我們，我們有去溝通，這個問題就迎刃而解了，是這樣子的狀況。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想溝通過程中的訊息，如果有錯誤要澄清，第二、如果有好的結果，是不是也應該要多發布一些相關的聲明？我想我們予以期待。"],["廖院長俊智：是，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：再爭取一點時間，我請教一下中研院，過去我跟您請教過淨零五支箭沒有包含核能一事。"],["廖院長俊智：那是因為我們認為核能不是中研院的專長，淨零五支箭裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分，核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻。"],["葛委員如鈞：陳主委也在台下，其實我4月24號跟主委互動的時候，主委有說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制，未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作。我也在這裡跟院長同步一下，5月19號世界要改變了，德國放棄反對核能立場，而且請注意一下，我們幫您畫紅線，法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源，也就是核能的低碳特性其實是逐漸在AI世代被重視。"],["廖院長俊智：這我們同意。"],["葛委員如鈞：既然同意的話，我想請教一下院長，接下來有沒有跟核安會在核能方面……我再重申一次，不管大家的政治立場，我相信研究是中立的，科學是中立的。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：核安的、核工的、核能的人才，拜託！一定要留住，所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待？"],["廖院長俊智：我們目前沒有核能、核安方面的人才，但是核能部分，假如牽涉到很多基礎性的研究，我們願意投入，而不是直接用在核能的設計、核能的安全、核能的運轉，這方面有其他單位比我們更有專長，所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入，這方面實際運作的要看其他單位一起來配合。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，院長，還是請您回去研議，我這樣聽起來還是會覺得中研院未來的研究可能還是不太會有以核能為主題的，我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位，希望大家可以一起努力來滿足賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性。他說還沒準備好，我們要幫他準備好，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：因為新的核能可能需要新的材料，那新的材料就牽涉到很多基礎研究，這方面是中研院可以研究的，但這些基礎材料不見得是專門為核能而做，很多會有這種情形，所以我們大概不會專門去聘核工的人才，可能在其他單位更適合，否則，他在中研院會變成無用武之地。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以中研院目前是沒有聘核工專業人才？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有，我們沒有任何人做這方面的。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在不會再重新考慮？現在我們非常需要這一塊，賴總統宣示了，他要投入一兆啊！"],["廖院長俊智：是啊，中研院主要的任務是做基礎研究。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以核能是應用研究？"],["廖院長俊智：現在核能比較是應用型的研究，基礎都已經解決，所以這就是為什麼大概2030年左右我們就可以購置新的核能，是用購置的，而不是我們自己研發出來的，自己研發出來可能要到不知道哪一年了。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以，院長，您現在已經確定了，就是中研院的主旨放棄核能相關的……"],["廖院長俊智：不能說……"],["葛委員如鈞：因為你剛剛已經說要購置了啊！"],["廖院長俊智：不能說放棄，只是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙，我們一定幫忙，假如沒有這個需求的話……中研院一向是提供基礎研究方面的支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有，我只是提醒各位，我們良善互動，賴清德總統有宣示了，新核能可以考慮，他說新核能沒有準備好，我真的是鼓勵大家一起幫他準備好，所以我最後希望院長可以承諾，過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來，但各國都已經轉換立場了，我們有沒有機會考慮把淨零五支箭變成淨零五加一，好不好？這個「一」可以是新核能，可不可以？"],["廖院長俊智：淨零五支箭的最主要用意是中研院能夠主導，但核能是中研院不能主導的，否則，核安會做什麼？國原院做什麼？其他單位做什麼？國原院遠比我們在這方面的實力強太多了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這是一個合作。"],["廖院長俊智：合作當然很願意，合作我們絕對展開雙臂。"],["葛委員如鈞：我跟院長表達，如果中研院的學術立場、科研立場沒有理性的去把各國都在重視的核能放進來……"],["廖院長俊智：我們有放進來啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：我想全臺灣的研究員、研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出路的，我覺得這不是一個好的訊息。"],["廖院長俊智：我們有放進來，但是不是由中研院主導，中研院不能做全國所有的事情，中研院有中研院自己的定位、有中研院自己的強項，我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻，其他還有很多單位，包括大學、很多法人都比我們更適合，大家分工合作。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，院長，您是臺灣在科研方面的最高機關，這點同意吧？所以您的高度有非常重大的影響力，所以您沒有辦法承諾把淨零五支箭變成五加一？"],["廖院長俊智：沒辦法，因為這淨零五支箭，我再講一次，是中研院自己能夠做的，其他我們可以大力鼓吹、我們可以coordinate、我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議，假如臺灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西，這個我們可以做，但是要由我們自己主導，這個我覺得我沒有辦法承諾。"],["葛委員如鈞：我還是希望院長重新考慮，我覺得剛剛您在答復上反而弱化了、矮化了中研院在話語權上、在科學上的領導地位，本席希望給您再多一點時間。召委已經站起來了，希望給院長多一點時間，內部研議一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：我想跟委員解釋一下，假如核能裡面有真正的基礎研究部分，我們非常樂意投入，但假如只有後端的怎麼樣來deploy這部分的話，那有更多、更好的、更適合的單位來做這件事情，我只是要強調這一點。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝院長，謝謝召委。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞召委，院長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}}