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這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子 它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話 有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論 就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話 也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 229.115, \"end\": 229.395, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 229.395, \"end\": 229.576, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 229.576, \"end\": 229.716, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 229.716, \"end\": 229.956, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 229.956, \"end\": 230.036, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 230.036, \"end\": 230.056, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 230.056, \"end\": 230.176, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 230.176, \"end\": 230.336, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 230.336, \"end\": 230.596, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 230.596, \"end\": 230.836, \"score\": 0.832}, 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{\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 620.276, \"end\": 620.356, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 620.356, \"end\": 620.456, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 620.456, \"end\": 620.556, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 620.556, \"end\": 620.576, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,523 --> 00:00:22,121\n謝謝主席,有請局長,謝謝請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,三位很早好,局長好,這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛,我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳這個\n\n2\n00:00:25,684 --> 00:00:43,795\n數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或是說哪些在預料範圍之內的\n\n3\n00:00:45,384 --> 00:01:05,299\n對,在五二五前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。\n\n4\n00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:36,119\n那針對近期的一個比較有異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅委員說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號\n\n5\n00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:53,009\n以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢\n\n6\n00:01:55,410 --> 00:02:20,567\n那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這個騷擾等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為\n\n7\n00:02:21,658 --> 00:02:37,678\n在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了\n\n8\n00:02:38,419 --> 00:02:59,275\n他被警方羈押了對我說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源\n\n9\n00:03:00,296 --> 00:03:26,522\n那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵序的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制\n\n10\n00:03:27,282 --> 00:03:48,235\n假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對因為現在就是說在因為海巡因為在\n\n11\n00:03:49,115 --> 00:04:10,669\n國防裡面要做這件事情還有在國安裡面這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論\n\n12\n00:04:13,491 --> 00:04:36,772\n因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這一部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考\n\n13\n00:04:37,572 --> 00:04:51,981\n對,因為畢竟海巡現在是,我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中,因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個,我忘了他叫什麼山東什麼凱哥之類的,就是說\n\n14\n00:04:52,541 --> 00:05:05,189\n他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該也有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人\n\n15\n00:05:09,651 --> 00:05:36,762\n然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是任之作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下\n\n16\n00:05:37,422 --> 00:05:57,088\n這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰\n\n17\n00:05:57,728 --> 00:06:20,754\n那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊\n\n18\n00:06:21,314 --> 00:06:50,613\n那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟他是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那麼也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒\n\n19\n00:06:51,013 --> 00:07:09,106\n所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題\n\n20\n00:07:09,867 --> 00:07:23,155\n因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是InternalThreat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴\n\n21\n00:07:32,660 --> 00:07:55,571\n那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是\n\n22\n00:07:56,952 --> 00:08:24,028\n是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠疑策的行為對相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解\n\n23\n00:08:25,028 --> 00:08:47,516\n對這個中等考核的一個做法就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個人員我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做\n\n24\n00:08:48,476 --> 00:09:04,501\n但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面之別的忠誠疑策之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享\n\n25\n00:09:05,021 --> 00:09:25,022\n然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向好\n\n26\n00:09:25,222 --> 00:09:51,828\n因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關有需要我們來提供意見\n\n27\n00:09:52,988 --> 00:10:09,496\n對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後他現在已經罰辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題\n\n28\n00:10:10,305 --> 00:10:20,576\n但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這一個應該這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好我們繼續來注意這個問題好謝謝局長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n523\t22121\t謝謝主席,有請局長,謝謝請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,三位很早好,局長好,這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛,我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳這個\n25684\t43795\t數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或是說哪些在預料範圍之內的\n45384\t65299\t對,在五二五前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。\n66940\t96119\t那針對近期的一個比較有異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅委員說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號\n97140\t113009\t以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢\n115410\t140567\t那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這個騷擾等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為\n141658\t157678\t在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了\n158419\t179275\t他被警方羈押了對 我說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源\n180296\t206522\t那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵序的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制\n207282\t228235\t假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對 因為現在就是說在因為海巡 因為在\n229115\t250669\t國防裡面要做這件事情 還有在國安裡面 這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子 它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話 有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論 就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話 也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論\n253491\t276772\t因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這一部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考\n277572\t291981\t對,因為畢竟海巡現在是,我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中,因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個,我忘了他叫什麼山東什麼凱哥之類的,就是說\n292541\t305189\t他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該也有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人\n309651\t336762\t然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是任之作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下\n337422\t357088\t這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰\n357728\t380754\t那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊\n381314\t410613\t那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟他是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那麼也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒\n411013\t429106\t所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題\n429867\t443155\t因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是Internal Threat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴\n452660\t475571\t那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是\n476952\t504028\t是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠疑策的行為對 相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解\n505028\t527516\t對 這個中等考核的一個做法 就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢 有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的 也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個人員 我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦 我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做\n528476\t544501\t但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面之別的忠誠疑策之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享\n545021\t565022\t然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向好\n565222\t591828\t因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關有需要我們來提供意見\n592988\t609496\t對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後他現在已經罰辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題\n610305\t620576\t但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這一個應該這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好我們繼續來注意這個問題好謝謝局長\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請局長,謝謝請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,三位很早好,局長好,這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛,我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳這個\n數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或是說哪些在預料範圍之內的\n對,在五二五前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。\n那針對近期的一個比較有異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅委員說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號\n以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢\n那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這個騷擾等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為\n在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了\n他被警方羈押了對 我說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源\n那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵序的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制\n假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對 因為現在就是說在因為海巡 因為在\n國防裡面要做這件事情 還有在國安裡面 這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子 它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話 有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論 就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話 也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論\n因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這一部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考\n對,因為畢竟海巡現在是,我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中,因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個,我忘了他叫什麼山東什麼凱哥之類的,就是說\n他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該也有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人\n然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是任之作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下\n這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰\n那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊\n那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟他是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那麼也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒\n所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題\n因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是Internal Threat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴\n那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是\n是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠疑策的行為對 相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解\n對 這個中等考核的一個做法 就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢 有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的 也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個人員 我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦 我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做\n但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面之別的忠誠疑策之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享\n然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向好\n因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關有需要我們來提供意見\n對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後他現在已經罰辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題\n但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這一個應該這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好我們繼續來注意這個問題好謝謝局長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.523 --> 00:22.121\n謝謝主席,有請局長,謝謝請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,三位很早好,局長好,這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛,我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳這個\n\n00:25.684 --> 00:43.795\n數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或是說哪些在預料範圍之內的\n\n00:45.384 --> 01:05.299\n對,在五二五前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。\n\n01:06.940 --> 01:36.119\n那針對近期的一個比較有異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅委員說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號\n\n01:37.140 --> 01:53.009\n以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢\n\n01:55.410 --> 02:20.567\n那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這個騷擾等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為\n\n02:21.658 --> 02:37.678\n在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了\n\n02:38.419 --> 02:59.275\n他被警方羈押了對我說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源\n\n03:00.296 --> 03:26.522\n那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵序的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制\n\n03:27.282 --> 03:48.235\n假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對因為現在就是說在因為海巡因為在\n\n03:49.115 --> 04:10.669\n國防裡面要做這件事情還有在國安裡面這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論\n\n04:13.491 --> 04:36.772\n因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這一部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考\n\n04:37.572 --> 04:51.981\n對,因為畢竟海巡現在是,我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中,因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個,我忘了他叫什麼山東什麼凱哥之類的,就是說\n\n04:52.541 --> 05:05.189\n他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該也有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人\n\n05:09.651 --> 05:36.762\n然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是任之作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下\n\n05:37.422 --> 05:57.088\n這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰\n\n05:57.728 --> 06:20.754\n那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊\n\n06:21.314 --> 06:50.613\n那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟他是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那麼也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒\n\n06:51.013 --> 07:09.106\n所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題\n\n07:09.867 --> 07:23.155\n因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是InternalThreat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴\n\n07:32.660 --> 07:55.571\n那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是\n\n07:56.952 --> 08:24.028\n是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠疑策的行為對相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解\n\n08:25.028 --> 08:47.516\n對這個中等考核的一個做法就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個人員我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做\n\n08:48.476 --> 09:04.501\n但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面之別的忠誠疑策之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享\n\n09:05.021 --> 09:25.022\n然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向好\n\n09:25.222 --> 09:51.828\n因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關有需要我們來提供意見\n\n09:52.988 --> 10:09.496\n對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後他現在已經罰辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題\n\n10:10.305 --> 10:20.576\n但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這一個應該這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好我們繼續來注意這個問題好謝謝局長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.523,"end":22.121,"text":"謝謝主席,有請局長,謝謝請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,三位很早好,局長好,這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛,我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳這個"},{"start":25.684,"end":43.795,"text":"數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或是說哪些在預料範圍之內的"},{"start":45.384,"end":65.299,"text":"對,在五二五前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。"},{"start":66.94,"end":96.119,"text":"那針對近期的一個比較有異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅委員說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號"},{"start":97.14,"end":113.009,"text":"以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢"},{"start":115.41,"end":140.567,"text":"那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這個騷擾等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為"},{"start":141.658,"end":157.678,"text":"在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了"},{"start":158.419,"end":179.275,"text":"他被警方羈押了對 我說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源"},{"start":180.296,"end":206.522,"text":"那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵序的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制"},{"start":207.282,"end":228.235,"text":"假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對 因為現在就是說在因為海巡 因為在"},{"start":229.115,"end":250.669,"text":"國防裡面要做這件事情 還有在國安裡面 這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子 它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話 有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論 就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話 也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論"},{"start":253.491,"end":276.772,"text":"因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這一部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考"},{"start":277.572,"end":291.981,"text":"對,因為畢竟海巡現在是,我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中,因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個,我忘了他叫什麼山東什麼凱哥之類的,就是說"},{"start":292.541,"end":305.189,"text":"他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該也有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人"},{"start":309.651,"end":336.762,"text":"然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是任之作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下"},{"start":337.422,"end":357.088,"text":"這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰"},{"start":357.728,"end":380.754,"text":"那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊"},{"start":381.314,"end":410.613,"text":"那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟他是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那麼也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":411.013,"end":429.106,"text":"所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題"},{"start":429.867,"end":443.155,"text":"因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是Internal Threat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴"},{"start":452.66,"end":475.571,"text":"那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是"},{"start":476.952,"end":504.028,"text":"是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠疑策的行為對 相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解"},{"start":505.028,"end":527.516,"text":"對 這個中等考核的一個做法 就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢 有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的 也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個人員 我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦 我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做"},{"start":528.476,"end":544.501,"text":"但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面之別的忠誠疑策之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享"},{"start":545.021,"end":565.022,"text":"然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向好"},{"start":565.222,"end":591.828,"text":"因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關有需要我們來提供意見"},{"start":592.988,"end":609.496,"text":"對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後他現在已經罰辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題"},{"start":610.305,"end":620.576,"text":"但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這一個應該這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好我們繼續來注意這個問題好謝謝局長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":142,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時49分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。沈委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好，大家今天應該都很關心三無船，剛剛前面應該也有提到最近三無船舶特別多，剛剛局長應該也有提到澎湖漁民的通報，說三無船的數量多到讓人吃驚。在這個騷擾之前，我想問第一件事情，因為昨天是520，520之前本來局裡面對於對方會做什麼樣的行動會有一定的預判，這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的，或者哪些是在預料範圍之內的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在520前夕國安局確實有組成專案小組，針對中共對臺灣的一些侵擾做一些重點式的觀察跟研判，包括軍事的活動、海上灰帶的襲擾、治安的侵害，以及認知作戰、爭議訊息的操作，所以我們有一個完整的通報應處機制。針對近期比較違異常的動態，海上灰帶襲擾應該是主要的重點。剛剛跟羅委員也說明到，在5月15號、16號，中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域，另外又有一些偷渡案件傳出，在海峽中線以西水域，中共三無漁船有近30艘在周邊活動，所以海上灰帶襲擾看起來是這一次主要的操作重點。","軍事上，一方面是5月11號以及5月18號有聯合戰備警巡，配合他們兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋活動，做一些軍事上的布置，所以整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢。"],["沈委員伯洋：我這邊追問兩個問題，在禁限制水域的騷擾等等之類的，我想應該是他們從去年開始一直進行到現在，也是他們重要的法律戰的範圍。第一點，他們對於這個的騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係，因為最近剛好也爆出海巡內部有滲透的問題、共諜的問題。今天海巡不在，我們當然不直接問這個內容，但是我想問的是，在我了解的狀況之下，這個內部的威脅、內部的滲透現在在調查當中，但因為他也還沒有起訴等等之類的，他可能就是調離原來的職位，調離原來的職位之後其實人還是在裡面工作……"],["蔡局長明彥：他已經被警方羈押了。"],["沈委員伯洋：我是說在這個之前，在調查的過程當中。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：在國安的這個法制裡面，我們那時候有在問人事總處，在他還沒有被調查跟羈押前，前面有一段在調查的時間，而在收網的這個過程當中，有時候必須決定什麼時候要收網，因為為了要溯源，為了溯源而延長偵訊時間的時候，我們對於他在單位上面繼續服務應該有什麼樣的處置？因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理，那我們應該如何是好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分在實務上，假如真的有相關的勤訓，在政府機關，特別是國安單位裡面，有同仁涉及資訊外洩或共諜案的時候，我們會有一個通報機制，假如在國防部部分，我們會讓政戰局或軍安總隊查處相關的個案，一方面也許還沒有繫檢來做法律的偵辦，但相關人員的行為動態就會進入蒐報跟掌握的範圍，海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式處理。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，在國防還有在國安裡面要做這件事算是簡單的，但因為這個發生在海巡，而最近的騷擾又是針對海巡為主，海巡內部的這個案子在前面的那一段時間它應該要怎麼做？它的機制要直接比照國安的話，有可能需要做相關法制的修正，所以我們現在是在討論，如果我們這邊提出修正的話，也希望局裡面能夠針對這個法制討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，在這部分我們局應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位，也配合儀測，也就是測謊的設計，不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸進行情報的滲透。這部分保防作業的經驗，我們很樂意提供給大院的委員，作為討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，畢竟現在我認為海巡已經完全被針對了，所以才會有這樣的情事發生。","第二個我想要再問的是，在這一個過程當中，剛剛前面也有提到什麼山東凱哥，說他有插旗什麼等等之類的，這個剛剛有問過，我問另外一個案子，這個我相信局裡面應該也有掌握。在社群上面越來越多人分享，說他身邊出現有異常狀態的中國人，可能他身上持有人民幣等等之類。第一個，如果這件事情是真的，那我們當然要嚴防，但它有可能是假的，也就是說，它從頭到尾有可能是認知作戰的一環，所以對我們來講，我們要怎麼……因為對於國人來講，他要去判斷這件事情不容易，但是對局裡面來講，這應該比較能夠有判斷的依據。針對這樣的事情，你們要怎麼跟國人說明？這個是不是請局長跟大家講一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這大概涉及到兩個部分：一個部分是網路相關的資訊我們都有在注意，有相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到可能有共諜的活動，這部分我們只要蒐報到相關的情資，我們會儘可能地查證這個人到底是誰，以及他有沒有涉及對岸在臺灣的情工活動，這大概是第一部分。","第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期關注中共相關情工滲透的問題，我們透過這樣公開的討論，也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識，注意一下是不是有類似的狀況、案例發生在周邊，透過這樣網路的揭露，我剛剛有提到我們會去注意。假如不是真實的案例，經過我們的過濾，也可以比較釐清大概的案況。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，如果這個是真實的話，國安單位絕對必須要啟動。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：但如果不是真實的，也更應該要啟動，畢竟它是大量地在網路上被散播，一般人可能會因為這樣而引起恐懼，我們也不排除這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的，所以不管是哪一個結果，都可能要請國安局到時候要跟國人說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：當然520這段時間會面臨比較多的軍事演習，剛剛有提到跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾，還有內部的滲透及爭議的訊息，所以基本上來講，這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題。","最後我想再問一下有關內部人員竊取機密的問題，這個不是真的有發生，只是說在處理解凍案的時候，我們那時候當然有特別提到，internal threat現在變得越來越嚴重，內部竊取機密變得比駭客攻擊更多，2020年到2022年增長了44%。也就是說，對解放軍來講，它今天直接去購買一個零日攻擊，這可能很昂貴，但它收買一個人，在裡面插一個USB把資料竊取出來，可能容易許多，所以我們當時有特別針對這一點。但因為在這一次的報告裡面只有特別提到，就是在右邊紅線畫起來的部分，說會定期辦理安全查核與忠誠儀測作為，可有效因應防範內部威脅的事況發生。我知道當然在這個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細，但是除了本來局裡面的一些忠誠儀測的行為，是不是還有更多更進一步的措施，去防範這些內部的威脅？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，相關的反情報跟保防的作為，我們內部有一套機制，假如委員想要了解的話，我們很願意派專人跟委員說明，因為我們做太詳細的揭露，它又會變成讓中共找到相關漏洞跟管道，對我們進行情報滲透，所以這部分也希望委員可以理解。"],["沈委員伯洋：有關忠誠考核的作法，除了國安還有調查單位之外，其實我們現在也面臨一個狀況，有時候我們自己在立院工作，假設我們的助理什麼等等之類的也是被滲透的對象，這一個人員我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員來直接考核，大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事，我們是民主國家，沒有辦法這樣做，但他又變成一個漏洞，所以他變成是一個滲透的對象。","所以我覺得有時候還有另外一個層面，除了局裡面自己的忠誠儀測之外，某種程度比較一般性的、比較簡單的，就是比較可以揭露於眾的，可能也要跟立法院分享，然後由立法院本身自己去做這樣的事情，我覺得這可能也是重要的。當然，對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤，就是局裡面自己本來做的，尤其是比較特殊的忠誠考核的一些作法，但另外一種就是比較一般性的，是不是能夠跟立法院分享？這個可能也是以後我們修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，政府機關相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局，但是我剛剛也跟委員說明過，局裡面這邊確實有一套機制，假如大院也要建立相關的規範或作業流程的話，我們很樂意提供我們的經驗給大院做分享。"],["沈委員伯洋：我的想法是，我們應該自己要建立另外一套法制，它是有別於本來公務人員的忠誠查核，因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有需要的話，我們來提供意見。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。後面這個新聞剛剛已經問過了，就是我們還是很希望……這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論，因為就我所知，這個案件應該也是調查一陣子才收網，收網之後，現在已經法辦，但是在那一段時間，就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安問題，但是因為他是公務員，你又還沒有做相關考績的時候，他可能人就在那邊，那到底該如何是好？我覺得這也會是一個漏洞，這個對我們來講非常的重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們繼續來注意這個問題，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝沈委員的質詢。","請馬文君委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":42,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-16","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","林憶君","陳培瑜","陳永康"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案","agenda_id":"1145201_00001"}}}