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{\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 565.586, \"end\": 565.766, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 565.766, \"end\": 565.926, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 565.926, \"end\": 566.086, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 566.086, \"end\": 566.286, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"丢\", \"start\": 566.286, \"end\": 566.467, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"脸\", \"start\": 566.467, \"end\": 566.707, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"丢\", \"start\": 566.707, \"end\": 566.847, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 566.847, \"end\": 567.067, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"国\", \"start\": 567.067, \"end\": 567.227, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 567.227, \"end\": 567.467, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 567.467, \"end\": 567.668, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 567.668, \"end\": 567.688, \"score\": 0.949}]}, {\"start\": 568.388, \"end\": 574.582, \"text\": \"所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 568.388, \"end\": 568.509, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 568.509, \"end\": 568.589, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 568.589, \"end\": 568.749, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 568.749, \"end\": 568.869, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 568.869, \"end\": 569.17, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 569.17, \"end\": 569.31, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 569.31, \"end\": 569.511, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 569.511, \"end\": 569.671, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 569.671, \"end\": 569.852, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 569.852, \"end\": 570.052, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 570.052, \"end\": 570.393, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 570.393, \"end\": 570.633, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", 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784.798, \"end\": 784.818, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 784.818, \"end\": 785.058, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 785.058, \"end\": 785.138, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 785.138, \"end\": 785.158, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 797.162, \"end\": 824.542, \"text\": \"然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 797.162, \"end\": 797.302, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 797.302, \"end\": 797.422, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 797.422, \"end\": 797.522, \"score\": 0.633}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 797.522, \"end\": 797.682, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 797.682, \"end\": 797.983, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 797.983, \"end\": 798.263, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": 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00:00:00,910\n我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院\n\n2\n00:00:25,013 --> 00:00:43,889\n因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然\n\n3\n00:00:49,654 --> 00:00:54,075\n他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動\n\n4\n00:01:17,122 --> 00:01:29,657\n這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍\n\n5\n00:01:30,538 --> 00:01:59,946\n在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇\n\n6\n00:02:00,586 --> 00:02:09,449\n那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那麼這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過\n\n7\n00:02:16,391 --> 00:02:29,333\n他是否不再是任婦產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選\n\n8\n00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:57,267\n那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告\n\n9\n00:03:05,774 --> 00:03:22,612\n那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事\n\n10\n00:03:23,593 --> 00:03:38,979\n不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員\n\n11\n00:03:40,680 --> 00:04:09,602\n那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告\n\n12\n00:04:10,703 --> 00:04:28,760\n那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是台北市衛生局會在之後的這個議事懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒\n\n13\n00:04:30,762 --> 00:04:54,404\n好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢\n\n14\n00:04:54,744 --> 00:05:22,118\n所以也跟委員報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的但是當時的這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛跟委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做\n\n15\n00:05:22,558 --> 00:05:37,746\n但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案\n\n16\n00:05:39,306 --> 00:05:43,109\n這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說但是因為邱太元部長當時就是說他們會要求競訴改選\n\n17\n00:05:56,497 --> 00:06:18,269\n這是白紙黑字講到的嘛然後他也說會把我們這個狀況以及婦產科這個理事會相關的回應隨時跟我報告但完全都沒有啊從1月到現在已經五個月啦所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案\n\n18\n00:06:18,909 --> 00:06:31,981\n你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這五個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的垂詢議事司有回一個委員齁\n\n19\n00:06:38,547 --> 00:07:07,959\n不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況之下這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理所以衛福部這邊我們在接下來的一輪大會也會來請問沒問題我們再看下一張\n\n20\n00:07:08,459 --> 00:07:34,255\n因為這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤是因為他非常的誇張這個理事長網站上依舊是他嘛那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流\n\n21\n00:07:34,975 --> 00:07:53,692\n這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的\n\n22\n00:07:58,436 --> 00:08:21,292\n但是他們是非常痛苦的而且台大醫院這邊也已經性騷這個部分也已經確定了嘛那我們點進來看到理事長還是他然後他還這個大言不慚的說要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利那請問是什麼樣的福利這個對於很多第一個這對很多的女醫師來說看了都非常的不舒服第二個\n\n23\n00:08:21,952 --> 00:08:27,037\n我們這個理事長他就講到說要到韓國跟這個婦產科醫學會來進行交流而且呢4月的時候他本來稱病喔但是呢被解聘之後說要請病假兩個月\n\n24\n00:08:38,027 --> 00:09:00,547\n那呢這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在呢還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後呢在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了嘛然後就說要去溝通了嘛\n\n25\n00:09:01,247 --> 00:09:27,688\n4月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊\n\n26\n00:09:28,388 --> 00:09:34,582\n所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢\n\n27\n00:09:35,592 --> 00:10:03,711\n還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人這是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛\n\n28\n00:10:03,991 --> 00:10:27,015\n我們剛剛講到懲戒的部分可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說要聖平三法走在前面要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分\n\n29\n00:10:27,475 --> 00:10:49,028\n所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的\n\n30\n00:10:51,292 --> 00:11:20,480\n其實因為時間的關係我直接講啦只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德表達\n\n31\n00:11:22,001 --> 00:11:42,695\n那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天的這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事情好那我們請台大醫院請回\n\n32\n00:11:47,898 --> 00:12:04,692\n那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心\n\n33\n00:12:14,980 --> 00:12:33,335\n居托中心哪一家居托中心地方卫生局这边文山卫生局文山的文山的居托嘛这十年来的督导是有特定对象的吗这十年来的督导督导指的他内部督导外部督导外聘督导\n\n34\n00:12:34,485 --> 00:12:51,653\n我說文山區居托這十年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到\n\n35\n00:12:52,813 --> 00:13:05,158\n林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的\n\n36\n00:13:17,162 --> 00:13:44,542\n然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢\n\n37\n00:13:48,693 --> 00:14:16,488\n他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是文山之托就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分喔\n\n38\n00:14:17,308 --> 00:14:33,453\n擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎\n\n39\n00:14:34,913 --> 00:14:53,935\n報告委員跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰這個淨娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務\n\n40\n00:14:55,476 --> 00:15:16,783\n我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬\n\n41\n00:15:18,163 --> 00:15:29,158\n不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題\n\n42\n00:15:33,123 --> 00:15:57,777\n透過委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作\n\n43\n00:15:58,357 --> 00:16:23,981\n是顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對\n\n44\n00:16:27,642 --> 00:16:45,935\n後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個\n\n45\n00:16:47,436 --> 00:17:12,094\n進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫\n\n46\n00:17:13,134 --> 00:17:36,298\n這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事\n\n47\n00:17:37,018 --> 00:17:51,105\n這個部分應該會是變成這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎好那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己\n\n48\n00:17:52,045 --> 00:18:07,932\n但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位還拿標案還拿筆注還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有\n\n49\n00:18:09,953 --> 00:18:17,378\n對啊我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛\n\n50\n00:18:29,225 --> 00:18:52,000\n過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t910\t我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院\n25013\t43889\t因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然\n49654\t54075\t他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動\n77122\t89657\t這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍\n90538\t119946\t在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇\n120586\t129449\t那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那麼這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過\n136391\t149333\t他是否不再是任婦產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選\n164036\t177267\t那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告\n185774\t202612\t那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事\n203593\t218979\t不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員\n220680\t249602\t那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告\n250703\t268760\t那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是台北市衛生局會在之後的這個議事懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒\n270762\t294404\t好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢\n294744\t322118\t所以也跟委員報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的但是當時的這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛跟委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做\n322558\t337746\t但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案\n339306\t343109\t這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說但是因為邱太元部長當時就是說他們會要求競訴改選\n356497\t378269\t這是白紙黑字講到的嘛然後他也說會把我們這個狀況以及婦產科這個理事會相關的回應隨時跟我報告但完全都沒有啊從1月到現在已經五個月啦所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案\n378909\t391981\t你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這五個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的垂詢議事司有回一個委員齁\n398547\t427959\t不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況之下這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理所以衛福部這邊我們在接下來的一輪大會也會來請問沒問題我們再看下一張\n428459\t454255\t因為這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤是因為他非常的誇張這個理事長網站上依舊是他嘛那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流\n454975\t473692\t這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的\n478436\t501292\t但是他們是非常痛苦的而且台大醫院這邊也已經性騷這個部分也已經確定了嘛那我們點進來看到理事長還是他然後他還這個大言不慚的說要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利那請問是什麼樣的福利這個對於很多第一個這對很多的女醫師來說看了都非常的不舒服第二個\n501952\t507037\t我們這個理事長他就講到說要到韓國跟這個婦產科醫學會來進行交流而且呢4月的時候他本來稱病喔但是呢被解聘之後說要請病假兩個月\n518027\t540547\t那呢這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在呢還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後呢在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了嘛然後就說要去溝通了嘛\n541247\t567688\t4月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊\n568388\t574582\t所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢\n575592\t603711\t還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人這是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛\n603991\t627015\t我們剛剛講到懲戒的部分 可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說要聖平三法走在前面 要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分\n627475\t649028\t所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的\n651292\t680480\t其實因為時間的關係我直接講啦只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德表達\n682001\t702695\t那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天的這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事情好那我們請台大醫院請回\n707898\t724692\t那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心\n734980\t753335\t居托中心哪一家居托中心地方卫生局这边文山卫生局文山的文山的居托嘛这十年来的督导是有特定对象的吗这十年来的督导督导指的他内部督导外部督导外聘督导\n754485\t771653\t我說文山區居托這十年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到\n772813\t785158\t林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的\n797162\t824542\t然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢\n828693\t856488\t他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是文山之托就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分喔\n857308\t873453\t擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎\n874913\t893935\t報告委員跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰這個淨娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢 那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務\n895476\t916783\t我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬\n918163\t929158\t不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題\n933123\t957777\t透過委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作\n958357\t983981\t是顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對\n987642\t1005935\t後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個\n1007436\t1032094\t進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫\n1033134\t1056298\t這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事\n1057018\t1071105\t這個部分應該會是變成這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎好那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己\n1072045\t1087932\t但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位還拿標案還拿筆注還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有\n1089953\t1097378\t對啊 我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有 他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛\n1109225\t1132000\t過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝謝謝\n","txt":"我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院\n因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然\n他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動\n這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍\n在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇\n那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那麼這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過\n他是否不再是任婦產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選\n那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告\n那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事\n不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員\n那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告\n那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是台北市衛生局會在之後的這個議事懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒\n好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢\n所以也跟委員報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的但是當時的這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛跟委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做\n但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案\n這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說但是因為邱太元部長當時就是說他們會要求競訴改選\n這是白紙黑字講到的嘛然後他也說會把我們這個狀況以及婦產科這個理事會相關的回應隨時跟我報告但完全都沒有啊從1月到現在已經五個月啦所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案\n你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這五個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的垂詢議事司有回一個委員齁\n不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況之下這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理所以衛福部這邊我們在接下來的一輪大會也會來請問沒問題我們再看下一張\n因為這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤是因為他非常的誇張這個理事長網站上依舊是他嘛那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流\n這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的\n但是他們是非常痛苦的而且台大醫院這邊也已經性騷這個部分也已經確定了嘛那我們點進來看到理事長還是他然後他還這個大言不慚的說要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利那請問是什麼樣的福利這個對於很多第一個這對很多的女醫師來說看了都非常的不舒服第二個\n我們這個理事長他就講到說要到韓國跟這個婦產科醫學會來進行交流而且呢4月的時候他本來稱病喔但是呢被解聘之後說要請病假兩個月\n那呢這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在呢還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後呢在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了嘛然後就說要去溝通了嘛\n4月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊\n所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢\n還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人這是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛\n我們剛剛講到懲戒的部分 可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說要聖平三法走在前面 要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分\n所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的\n其實因為時間的關係我直接講啦只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德表達\n那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天的這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事情好那我們請台大醫院請回\n那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心\n居托中心哪一家居托中心地方卫生局这边文山卫生局文山的文山的居托嘛这十年来的督导是有特定对象的吗这十年来的督导督导指的他内部督导外部督导外聘督导\n我說文山區居托這十年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到\n林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的\n然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢\n他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是文山之托就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分喔\n擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎\n報告委員跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰這個淨娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢 那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務\n我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬\n不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題\n透過委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作\n是顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對\n後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個\n進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫\n這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事\n這個部分應該會是變成這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎好那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己\n但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位還拿標案還拿筆注還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有\n對啊 我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有 他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛\n過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:00.910\n我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院\n\n00:25.013 --> 00:43.889\n因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然\n\n00:49.654 --> 00:54.075\n他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動\n\n01:17.122 --> 01:29.657\n這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍\n\n01:30.538 --> 01:59.946\n在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇\n\n02:00.586 --> 02:09.449\n那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那麼這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過\n\n02:16.391 --> 02:29.333\n他是否不再是任婦產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選\n\n02:44.036 --> 02:57.267\n那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告\n\n03:05.774 --> 03:22.612\n那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事\n\n03:23.593 --> 03:38.979\n不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員\n\n03:40.680 --> 04:09.602\n那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告\n\n04:10.703 --> 04:28.760\n那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是台北市衛生局會在之後的這個議事懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒\n\n04:30.762 --> 04:54.404\n好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢\n\n04:54.744 --> 05:22.118\n所以也跟委員報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的但是當時的這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛跟委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做\n\n05:22.558 --> 05:37.746\n但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案\n\n05:39.306 --> 05:43.109\n這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說但是因為邱太元部長當時就是說他們會要求競訴改選\n\n05:56.497 --> 06:18.269\n這是白紙黑字講到的嘛然後他也說會把我們這個狀況以及婦產科這個理事會相關的回應隨時跟我報告但完全都沒有啊從1月到現在已經五個月啦所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案\n\n06:18.909 --> 06:31.981\n你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這五個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的垂詢議事司有回一個委員齁\n\n06:38.547 --> 07:07.959\n不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況之下這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理所以衛福部這邊我們在接下來的一輪大會也會來請問沒問題我們再看下一張\n\n07:08.459 --> 07:34.255\n因為這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤是因為他非常的誇張這個理事長網站上依舊是他嘛那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流\n\n07:34.975 --> 07:53.692\n這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的\n\n07:58.436 --> 08:21.292\n但是他們是非常痛苦的而且台大醫院這邊也已經性騷這個部分也已經確定了嘛那我們點進來看到理事長還是他然後他還這個大言不慚的說要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利那請問是什麼樣的福利這個對於很多第一個這對很多的女醫師來說看了都非常的不舒服第二個\n\n08:21.952 --> 08:27.037\n我們這個理事長他就講到說要到韓國跟這個婦產科醫學會來進行交流而且呢4月的時候他本來稱病喔但是呢被解聘之後說要請病假兩個月\n\n08:38.027 --> 09:00.547\n那呢這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在呢還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後呢在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了嘛然後就說要去溝通了嘛\n\n09:01.247 --> 09:27.688\n4月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊\n\n09:28.388 --> 09:34.582\n所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢\n\n09:35.592 --> 10:03.711\n還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人這是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛\n\n10:03.991 --> 10:27.015\n我們剛剛講到懲戒的部分可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說要聖平三法走在前面要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分\n\n10:27.475 --> 10:49.028\n所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的\n\n10:51.292 --> 11:20.480\n其實因為時間的關係我直接講啦只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德表達\n\n11:22.001 --> 11:42.695\n那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天的這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事情好那我們請台大醫院請回\n\n11:47.898 --> 12:04.692\n那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心\n\n12:14.980 --> 12:33.335\n居托中心哪一家居托中心地方卫生局这边文山卫生局文山的文山的居托嘛这十年来的督导是有特定对象的吗这十年来的督导督导指的他内部督导外部督导外聘督导\n\n12:34.485 --> 12:51.653\n我說文山區居托這十年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到\n\n12:52.813 --> 13:05.158\n林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的\n\n13:17.162 --> 13:44.542\n然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢\n\n13:48.693 --> 14:16.488\n他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是文山之托就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分喔\n\n14:17.308 --> 14:33.453\n擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎\n\n14:34.913 --> 14:53.935\n報告委員跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰這個淨娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務\n\n14:55.476 --> 15:16.783\n我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬\n\n15:18.163 --> 15:29.158\n不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題\n\n15:33.123 --> 15:57.777\n透過委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作\n\n15:58.357 --> 16:23.981\n是顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對\n\n16:27.642 --> 16:45.935\n後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個\n\n16:47.436 --> 17:12.094\n進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫\n\n17:13.134 --> 17:36.298\n這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事\n\n17:37.018 --> 17:51.105\n這個部分應該會是變成這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎好那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己\n\n17:52.045 --> 18:07.932\n但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位還拿標案還拿筆注還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有\n\n18:09.953 --> 18:17.378\n對啊我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛\n\n18:29.225 --> 18:52.000\n過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.91,"text":"我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院"},{"start":25.013,"end":43.889,"text":"因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然"},{"start":49.654,"end":54.075,"text":"他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動"},{"start":77.122,"end":89.657,"text":"這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍"},{"start":90.538,"end":119.946,"text":"在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇"},{"start":120.586,"end":129.449,"text":"那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那麼這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過"},{"start":136.391,"end":149.333,"text":"他是否不再是任婦產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選"},{"start":164.036,"end":177.267,"text":"那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告"},{"start":185.774,"end":202.612,"text":"那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事"},{"start":203.593,"end":218.979,"text":"不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員"},{"start":220.68,"end":249.602,"text":"那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告"},{"start":250.703,"end":268.76,"text":"那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是台北市衛生局會在之後的這個議事懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒"},{"start":270.762,"end":294.404,"text":"好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢"},{"start":294.744,"end":322.118,"text":"所以也跟委員報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的但是當時的這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛跟委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做"},{"start":322.558,"end":337.746,"text":"但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案"},{"start":339.306,"end":343.109,"text":"這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說但是因為邱太元部長當時就是說他們會要求競訴改選"},{"start":356.497,"end":378.269,"text":"這是白紙黑字講到的嘛然後他也說會把我們這個狀況以及婦產科這個理事會相關的回應隨時跟我報告但完全都沒有啊從1月到現在已經五個月啦所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案"},{"start":378.909,"end":391.981,"text":"你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這五個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的垂詢議事司有回一個委員齁"},{"start":398.547,"end":427.959,"text":"不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況之下這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理所以衛福部這邊我們在接下來的一輪大會也會來請問沒問題我們再看下一張"},{"start":428.459,"end":454.255,"text":"因為這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤是因為他非常的誇張這個理事長網站上依舊是他嘛那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流"},{"start":454.975,"end":473.692,"text":"這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的"},{"start":478.436,"end":501.292,"text":"但是他們是非常痛苦的而且台大醫院這邊也已經性騷這個部分也已經確定了嘛那我們點進來看到理事長還是他然後他還這個大言不慚的說要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利那請問是什麼樣的福利這個對於很多第一個這對很多的女醫師來說看了都非常的不舒服第二個"},{"start":501.952,"end":507.037,"text":"我們這個理事長他就講到說要到韓國跟這個婦產科醫學會來進行交流而且呢4月的時候他本來稱病喔但是呢被解聘之後說要請病假兩個月"},{"start":518.027,"end":540.547,"text":"那呢這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在呢還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後呢在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了嘛然後就說要去溝通了嘛"},{"start":541.247,"end":567.688,"text":"4月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊"},{"start":568.388,"end":574.582,"text":"所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢"},{"start":575.592,"end":603.711,"text":"還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人這是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛"},{"start":603.991,"end":627.015,"text":"我們剛剛講到懲戒的部分 可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說要聖平三法走在前面 要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分"},{"start":627.475,"end":649.028,"text":"所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的"},{"start":651.292,"end":680.48,"text":"其實因為時間的關係我直接講啦只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德表達"},{"start":682.001,"end":702.695,"text":"那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天的這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事情好那我們請台大醫院請回"},{"start":707.898,"end":724.692,"text":"那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心"},{"start":734.98,"end":753.335,"text":"居托中心哪一家居托中心地方卫生局这边文山卫生局文山的文山的居托嘛这十年来的督导是有特定对象的吗这十年来的督导督导指的他内部督导外部督导外聘督导"},{"start":754.485,"end":771.653,"text":"我說文山區居托這十年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到"},{"start":772.813,"end":785.158,"text":"林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的"},{"start":797.162,"end":824.542,"text":"然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是我國的立法委員還自詡了關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢"},{"start":828.693,"end":856.488,"text":"他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是文山之托就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分喔"},{"start":857.308,"end":873.453,"text":"擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎"},{"start":874.913,"end":893.935,"text":"報告委員跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰這個淨娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢 那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務"},{"start":895.476,"end":916.783,"text":"我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬"},{"start":918.163,"end":929.158,"text":"不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題"},{"start":933.123,"end":957.777,"text":"透過委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作"},{"start":958.357,"end":983.981,"text":"是顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對"},{"start":987.642,"end":1005.935,"text":"後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個"},{"start":1007.436,"end":1032.094,"text":"進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫"},{"start":1033.134,"end":1056.298,"text":"這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事"},{"start":1057.018,"end":1071.105,"text":"這個部分應該會是變成這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎好那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己"},{"start":1072.045,"end":1087.932,"text":"但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位還拿標案還拿筆注還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有"},{"start":1089.953,"end":1097.378,"text":"對啊 我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有 他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛"},{"start":1109.225,"end":1132,"text":"過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時50分）謝謝召委，我們請衛福部次長，還有臺大醫院。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：次長好。今天部長不在，但是上一次我來的時候，針對臺大醫院的性騷案，我們是跟部長之間互動，當時我們就提到了臺大醫師他有涉嫌到……也不是涉嫌而已，已經被臺大醫院確定說他有性騷的行為，這也引發外界譁然，他現在的職位依舊是婦產科醫學會的理事長。上一次我在衛環委員會跟部長討論這件事情的時候，我就談到他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長，所以當時有一個狀況是，比如他們召開婦產科理事會的相關活動，這個當事人陳醫師人在現場，他是理事長，當下就有很多受害者，他們也不方便公布他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說，到現在都在不斷隱忍，那個時候他們到底該敬酒還是不該敬酒，該合照還是不該合照？那時候，我們都接到很多匿名的陳情，女性有很大很大的壓力，他們因為工作的關係必須在這個理事會裡面，但這個理事長過去曾經對他們有性騷的行為，所以這無疑是第二次讓這些女性的醫師們感受到加害，以及不舒服、不公平的待遇。","因為今天不是部長來，所以我必須重新跟您說一下當時情況：臺大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷，被記過，他針對是否不再適任婦產科學會的理事長，邱泰源部長說他現在在衛福部執登已經沒有了；我說他還是理事長；他說這是民間團體，我們會……我說那他是民間團體，你覺得應該怎麼辦呢？邱泰源部長當時的回應是「我們會要求他們儘速改選」。我們又講了一些內容，後面他就再強調一次：「我們會勸他儘速改選」。再來，我談到請給我一個期限，你們需要多久時間辦理完成，因為我怕離開這個質詢臺以後又說沒有這件事，現在就是這樣；邱部長說不會，我會把告訴他們的情況，以及婦產科的回應，隨時跟委員報告。上一次是在1月2號所做相關的質詢，到現在5月21號，過去5個月，現在衛福部跟我們辦公室聯繫此事，不管是回報進度，或是聯繫本案，都沒有，是零次。次長，您覺得這個是不是衛福部的疏忽？"],["林次長靜儀：我跟委員報告這個案子的進度，因為其實很誠實地說，我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員，我認為學會除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的精進之外，在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件，學會應該要有一定程度的態度，也應該表現給民眾看，因為在前一段時間，臺北市相關的職業工會。其實也提到這件事情，這是整個醫事人員很重要的形象，以及跟病人之間醫學倫理應該有的行為，這件事情先跟委員報告。","在進度上面，目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局，針對現在性平已經確定或甚至判刑確定的幾個個案，其實應該要進行相關的懲戒，就我們剛所提到的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那以這案來說呢？"],["林次長靜儀：這案就我們的了解，應該是臺北市衛生局會在之後的醫師懲戒委員會開啟懲戒。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那懲戒歸懲戒，但是他作為民間團體理事長這部分，我們從1月就開始追這個議題，但到現在已經5月了，他們說9月就要改選了，所以現在來不及。可是問題是針對我們的質詢，以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或是去溝通這件事情，是1月就應該開始做了，為什麼到5月的時候，現在還是沒有相關進度呢？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，醫學會本身不是衛福部……它自己內部的理事長是內部的民主、他們內部選舉選出來的。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啦，但是當時邱泰源部長就說了：我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關溝通。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷地提醒，請學會要有積極的作為，法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做，但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件，也是全臺矚目的案件……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問衛福部在這個事件上面，有幾次針對本案跟理事會聯絡，溝通希望他們要來改選？"],["林次長靜儀：這個我可能沒有辦法明確地告訴委員幾次……"],["徐委員巧芯：那有人能夠回復嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：因為在法規上面，醫學會跟衛福部的關係，衛福部並沒有法源說要怎麼做改選。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，但邱泰源部長當時就說他們會要求儘速改選，這是白紙黑字講到的嘛，然後他也說會把我們的狀況及婦產科理事會相關的回應，隨時跟我報告，但完全都沒有啊！從1月到現在，已經5個月了。我今天既然在質詢臺上面，你應該要現在告訴我們，從1月到5月，目前為止針對本案你們去跟理事會做了幾次溝通，然後他們的回復是什麼？既然這5個月以來，你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告，現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，應該是4月25日的時候，醫事司有回給委員相關的垂詢，不過對於婦產科醫學會這樣的……跟委員還有所有在場委員報告，這個案子不只是這個部分，因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或是性騷擾防治相關事件上面……當然法律是道德的最低底線，那在法律沒有明定的事情的情況底下，這件事情牽涉到重大的醫學倫理，所以衛福部這邊，我們在接下來的醫倫大會也會來檢討這個行為。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒問題，我們再看下一張。這個事情為什麼要持續追蹤？是因為他非常誇張，網站上依舊是這個理事長，如果有任何關心這個議題的人，點到臺灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長的簡介的話，你會看到他說，他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利，還繼續講說他要去跟國外進行學術交流，這些話都無疑讓很多被性騷……因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角，所以這些女醫師沒辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因，就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構，所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候，女醫師是沒有證據的，但是他們是非常痛苦的，而且臺大醫院就性騷這個部分也已經確定了。","我們點進來看到理事長還是他，他還大言不慚地說，要對婦女和婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利，請問是什麼樣的福利？第一個，這對很多的女醫師來說，看了都非常不舒服。第二個，這個理事長要到韓國跟婦產科醫學會來進行交流，而且4月的時候他本來稱病，但是被解聘之後，說要請病假2個月，這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題？還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督？我想大家心知肚明，答案昭然若揭，現在還是以這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置。","我們1月就在談這個事情了，然後就說要去溝通了，4月的時候，他說他病好了，這禮拜要率團赴日跟日本的婦產科醫學會交流，請問日本的婦產科醫學會會怎麼想？他們不是不會看新聞，他們看到的新聞就是臺灣派來他們這裡，跟他們婦產科醫學會交流的是一個性騷犯，大家遮家醜都來不及了，還讓他代表臺灣去交流，這根本就是丟臉丟到國外去啊！所以我想要問一下，到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有法源的情況之下，請他們包含懲戒等等，但是懲戒這件事情，可能不包含到醫學會。所以還是再次強調這件事情：第一，我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理；第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例，所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人，這是整個醫療界都應該要一起面對的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我了解，您剛剛講到懲戒的部分，可是我們翻了一下，去年底部長的說法是，要性平三法走在前面，要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法第二十五條移付懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：醫師法第二十五條懲戒的條件裡面，在第四款就有相關醫學倫理的部分，內部其實有好幾款，甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以當時我們在詢問的時候意思是，如果能夠做相關的援引的話，這個事件的處理進度就能夠比較快。再來，我們要講到，您剛剛說違反醫學倫理可以送懲戒，那我想問這15年來總共有幾個案子是因為違反醫學倫理送到懲戒的？因為時間的關係，我直接講，只有12案而已。"],["林次長靜儀：因為在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法，懲戒辦法有好幾款，當然其中有一些是犯法了、有些是倫理的問題，或有些是職務上面的問題，我們當然還是再一次強調，懲戒是由地方衛生局召開，我們也期待地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德標準的要求。"],["徐委員巧芯：一定啊！這個部分是不是還要請衛福部再去跟相關的理事會溝通，就像當時邱泰源部長講的那樣，就是希望建議他們可以再儘快改選，不要讓大家都覺得……"],["林次長靜儀：我相信今天我們在委員會這樣的關切，相關的學會，當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會，應該都要注意到這件事。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺大醫院請回。最後我要問一個問題，就是關於剛才大家都很在乎、很關心的剴剴案的事情，我想要請問一下，訪視員是公務員嗎？不是吧？這個所謂的訪視是由協會來承辦，是嗎？剴剴案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦？"],["林次長靜儀：剴剴案的訪視員應該是居托中心。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一家居托中心？"],["林次長靜儀：地方衛生局、文山的。"],["徐委員巧芯：文山的居托嘛！這10年來的督導是有特定對象嗎？"],["張副署長美美：督導指的是它內部……"],["徐委員巧芯：外部督導、外聘督導，文山居托這10年來都有外聘督導，都是同一個人，都是林月琴委員，從107年到112年都是，到113年以後才改人。我們可以看到，當時林月琴委員他身為外部督導，應該有機會比我們早知道剴剴案的發生，因為他如果以他外聘督導的身分去詢問的話是可以的，可是2024年3月18號我們排了剴剴案相關檢討的質詢時，包含林月琴委員，是不讓薛瑞元部長上臺被質詢的，然後他拿著這個手板批判他人只會逃避，但現在很多社工機構看不下去，所以我們才知道原來真正在逃避、沒有道歉、隱藏自己身分的人是我國的立法委員，還自詡為關心兒少的……"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，當天應該不是不讓部長上臺，因為當天就我的了解應該是委員會內部因為某個委員跟兒福聯盟的關係，所以在整個委員會……"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問林月琴委員跟剴剴案的關係呢？"],["張副署長美美：他……"],["徐委員巧芯：他就是本案的外聘督導，沒有錯啊！他今天攻擊其他的委員，說對方是兒福聯盟的董事，結果自己呢？他本身也是文山居托，就是這個案子的外聘委員，然後他要別人不要逃避的時候，其他所有的人，包含臺北市的市長，也都對剴剴案道歉了，但是……這樣的情形不是非常地荒唐嗎？","再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分，擔任立委的時候接政府的標案，這是一件合理的事嗎？這是一件能被接受的事情嗎？這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎？你擔任立委，同時是基金會的董事長，然後你再接政府的標案，這是可以的嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，跟我們申請標案的是這些團體……"],["徐委員巧芯：這些團體的董事長是誰？"],["林次長靜儀：但是這些團體……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個靖娟兒童文教基金會當時在申請及標這個案子時的董事長，我想請問一下是哪一位？"],["張副署長美美：董事長是林志嘉。"],["徐委員巧芯：那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務？"],["張副署長美美：就我們的了解，他擔任的是董事。"],["徐委員巧芯：董事嘛！所以在他是董事的情況之下，能夠來做這個標案，標案一共標出了多少呢？3個案子，共479萬元，裡面的董事有我們的立法委員；再來，取得的補助也高達330萬元，兩者加起來一共800萬。不過兩年的時間而已，就透過基金會董事兼立委的身分拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢，你們也知道他有立委的身分，但是卻將標案給了這個基金會，甚至給予補助款，這有沒有圖利的認定？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我們內部相關的補助案，我們都會要求來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商，要依據利衝法聲明它自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身分。"],["徐委員巧芯：那這3案是怎麼回事？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣的一個動作。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為這顯然有利益迴避的認定。"],["林次長靜儀：因為部內有這樣的要求，就是他們要來跟我們申請標案，團體要澄清，但如果團體勾「否」，這樣就是團體當時沒有做這樣的一個宣告，我們可能要調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果它勾的是「否」，但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人，那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步？"],["林次長靜儀：這個是在利衝相關的部分，等於是團體他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們陳報的資訊來取得標案。"],["徐委員巧芯：那相關的懲處內容呢？"],["林次長靜儀：後續我們要進行調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：後面的懲處內容會是什麼？"],["林次長靜儀：後續的話就是一樣，這個團體跟我們說的怎麼可以不是事實……"],["徐委員巧芯：怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛！對不對？那補助的部分也是一樣嗎？我剛剛講的是標案，另外是補助，補助的部分我們可以看到……"],["林次長靜儀：一樣都是利衝法，團體都要提出他們的說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們看到他在靖娟基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助清單，包含很多，2024年跟2025年都有，我剛剛也把數字念出來了，申請補助，但是自己本身是立委，這個也有利益迴避的問題吧？"],["林次長靜儀：再次跟委員說明，有關利衝法的部分，我們衛福部內的同仁都很注意這件事情，所以本來團體來跟我們申請，不論補助或標案，他們都應該要填寫這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的陳報，他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情，有沒有這樣的關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我的意思是說，這3個標案以及這兩年的補助，如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在衛環委員會的立法委員擔任董事或董事長的情況之下，仍然取得標案、取得補助，那麼後續你們衛福部要來追究此事？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分應該會是變成，第一個是團體這裡的問題；第二，我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：還有監察院的部分，這樣我們知道了。委員們都說要用最高的標準檢視自己，但是如果說同時之間他自己沒有請辭基金會相關的職位，還拿標案、還拿補助、還騙衛福部，我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況。"],["林次長靜儀：我想不是特定的……應該是說這些團體來跟我們申請的時候，團體並沒有跟我們告知這件事。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！我就說這是某種程度地隱瞞了衛福部嘛！因為它應該要告訴你們裡面有誰。你說它可能沒有勾選，所以你們給了標案跟補助。那某種程度來說它就是隱瞞相關資訊，所以會有利益衝突迴避法還有監察院相關的問題，過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職，甚至可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的標案或是補助，也都辭職了。那我們現在就要看這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己，以及後續會不會有任何一些法律追溯問題。時間有限，非常感謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}