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\"start\": 498.385, \"end\": 498.405, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 501.769, \"end\": 502.03, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"盧\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 502.03, \"end\": 502.15, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 502.15, \"end\": 502.371, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 502.371, \"end\": 502.391, \"score\": 0.037}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,561 --> 00:00:09,083\n主席有請次長跟吳院長\n\n2\n00:00:18,215 --> 00:00:26,379\n委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個盲腸讓我們覺得很羞愧\n\n3\n00:00:33,783 --> 00:00:51,918\n那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法\n\n4\n00:00:52,478 --> 00:01:16,431\n很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個\n\n5\n00:01:17,912 --> 00:01:25,639\n哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎\n\n6\n00:01:27,290 --> 00:01:55,832\n跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分\n\n7\n00:01:56,432 --> 00:02:14,838\n事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有可能為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體最肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最拿捏的最最要緊所以想問院長\n\n8\n00:02:15,658 --> 00:02:40,034\n那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次\n\n9\n00:02:40,874 --> 00:02:59,462\n就是全面的組織醫師而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師的所以他的課是白上了嗎這個我沒辦法回答好那我們就所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第十五第十四十五十八三十一\n\n10\n00:03:00,282 --> 00:03:16,653\n只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止那醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師啦我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子是不是沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件\n\n11\n00:03:17,493 --> 00:03:37,482\n這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很驚訝發生這樣的事情\n\n12\n00:03:38,863 --> 00:04:05,957\n發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求\n\n13\n00:04:07,038 --> 00:04:19,733\n很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情\n\n14\n00:04:21,337 --> 00:04:47,158\n甚至我們在上次吸性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊\n\n15\n00:04:48,499 --> 00:05:08,938\n是不是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像次上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法\n\n16\n00:05:09,338 --> 00:05:25,554\n那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理\n\n17\n00:05:26,615 --> 00:05:44,942\n醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉次長的態度呢\n\n18\n00:05:45,700 --> 00:06:01,766\n所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說的不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的\n\n19\n00:06:05,307 --> 00:06:27,899\n我這兩天看了一些文獻,那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到,比如說我要找一個所謂的sexharassmentcareprovidertopatient結果他那個題目自動會回到patienttocareprovider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾\n\n20\n00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:45,155\n幾乎是沒有潛力可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在繁殖這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以\n\n21\n00:06:45,615 --> 00:07:00,052\n可以去看的包括委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家\n\n22\n00:07:00,472 --> 00:07:21,810\n所以他事實上就是在信憑三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在信憑三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的要注意是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝\n\n23\n00:07:23,171 --> 00:07:52,288\n他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能去單獨值班跟看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是形同因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個\n\n24\n00:07:53,248 --> 00:08:18,405\n完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝\n\n25\n00:08:21,769 --> 00:08:22,391\n好謝謝盧委員謝謝次長院長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7561\t9083\t主席有請次長跟吳院長\n18215\t26379\t委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個盲腸讓我們覺得很羞愧\n33783\t51918\t那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法\n52478\t76431\t很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個\n77912\t85639\t哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎\n87290\t115832\t跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分\n116432\t134838\t事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有可能為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體最肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最拿捏的最最要緊所以想問院長\n135658\t160034\t那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次\n160874\t179462\t就是全面的組織醫師 而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師的所以他的課是白上了嗎這個我沒辦法回答好 那我們就所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第十五第十四十五 十八 三十一\n180282\t196653\t只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止那醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師啦我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子是不是沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件\n197493\t217482\t這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很驚訝發生這樣的事情\n218863\t245957\t發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求\n247038\t259733\t很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情\n261337\t287158\t甚至我們在上次吸性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊\n288499\t308938\t是不是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像次上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法\n309338\t325554\t那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理\n326615\t344942\t醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對 所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉 次長的態度呢\n345700\t361766\t所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說的不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的\n365307\t387899\t我這兩天看了一些文獻,那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到,比如說我要找一個所謂的sex harassment care provider to patient結果他那個題目自動會回到patient to care provider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾\n389700\t405155\t幾乎是沒有潛力可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在繁殖這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以\n405615\t420052\t可以去看的包括委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家\n420472\t441810\t所以他事實上就是在信憑三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在信憑三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的要注意是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝\n443171\t472288\t他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能去單獨值班跟看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是形同因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個\n473248\t498405\t完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝\n501769\t502391\t好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝次長 院長\n","txt":"主席有請次長跟吳院長\n委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個盲腸讓我們覺得很羞愧\n那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法\n很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個\n哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎\n跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分\n事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有可能為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體最肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最拿捏的最最要緊所以想問院長\n那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次\n就是全面的組織醫師 而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師的所以他的課是白上了嗎這個我沒辦法回答好 那我們就所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第十五第十四十五 十八 三十一\n只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止那醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師啦我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子是不是沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件\n這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很驚訝發生這樣的事情\n發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求\n很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情\n甚至我們在上次吸性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊\n是不是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像次上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法\n那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理\n醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對 所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉 次長的態度呢\n所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說的不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的\n我這兩天看了一些文獻,那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到,比如說我要找一個所謂的sex harassment care provider to patient結果他那個題目自動會回到patient to care provider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾\n幾乎是沒有潛力可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在繁殖這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以\n可以去看的包括委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家\n所以他事實上就是在信憑三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在信憑三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的要注意是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝\n他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能去單獨值班跟看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是形同因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個\n完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝\n好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝次長 院長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.561 --> 00:09.083\n主席有請次長跟吳院長\n\n00:18.215 --> 00:26.379\n委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個盲腸讓我們覺得很羞愧\n\n00:33.783 --> 00:51.918\n那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法\n\n00:52.478 --> 01:16.431\n很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個\n\n01:17.912 --> 01:25.639\n哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎\n\n01:27.290 --> 01:55.832\n跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分\n\n01:56.432 --> 02:14.838\n事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有可能為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體最肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最拿捏的最最要緊所以想問院長\n\n02:15.658 --> 02:40.034\n那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次\n\n02:40.874 --> 02:59.462\n就是全面的組織醫師而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師的所以他的課是白上了嗎這個我沒辦法回答好那我們就所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第十五第十四十五十八三十一\n\n03:00.282 --> 03:16.653\n只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止那醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師啦我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子是不是沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件\n\n03:17.493 --> 03:37.482\n這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很驚訝發生這樣的事情\n\n03:38.863 --> 04:05.957\n發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求\n\n04:07.038 --> 04:19.733\n很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情\n\n04:21.337 --> 04:47.158\n甚至我們在上次吸性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊\n\n04:48.499 --> 05:08.938\n是不是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像次上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法\n\n05:09.338 --> 05:25.554\n那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理\n\n05:26.615 --> 05:44.942\n醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉次長的態度呢\n\n05:45.700 --> 06:01.766\n所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說的不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的\n\n06:05.307 --> 06:27.899\n我這兩天看了一些文獻,那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到,比如說我要找一個所謂的sexharassmentcareprovidertopatient結果他那個題目自動會回到patienttocareprovider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾\n\n06:29.700 --> 06:45.155\n幾乎是沒有潛力可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在繁殖這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以\n\n06:45.615 --> 07:00.052\n可以去看的包括委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家\n\n07:00.472 --> 07:21.810\n所以他事實上就是在信憑三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在信憑三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的要注意是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝\n\n07:23.171 --> 07:52.288\n他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能去單獨值班跟看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是形同因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個\n\n07:53.248 --> 08:18.405\n完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝\n\n08:21.769 --> 08:22.391\n好謝謝盧委員謝謝次長院長\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.561,"end":9.083,"text":"主席有請次長跟吳院長"},{"start":18.215,"end":26.379,"text":"委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個盲腸讓我們覺得很羞愧"},{"start":33.783,"end":51.918,"text":"那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法"},{"start":52.478,"end":76.431,"text":"很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個"},{"start":77.912,"end":85.639,"text":"哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎"},{"start":87.29,"end":115.832,"text":"跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分"},{"start":116.432,"end":134.838,"text":"事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有可能為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體最肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最拿捏的最最要緊所以想問院長"},{"start":135.658,"end":160.034,"text":"那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次"},{"start":160.874,"end":179.462,"text":"就是全面的組織醫師 而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師的所以他的課是白上了嗎這個我沒辦法回答好 那我們就所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第十五第十四十五 十八 三十一"},{"start":180.282,"end":196.653,"text":"只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止那醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師啦我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子是不是沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件"},{"start":197.493,"end":217.482,"text":"這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很驚訝發生這樣的事情"},{"start":218.863,"end":245.957,"text":"發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求"},{"start":247.038,"end":259.733,"text":"很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情"},{"start":261.337,"end":287.158,"text":"甚至我們在上次吸性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊"},{"start":288.499,"end":308.938,"text":"是不是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像次上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法"},{"start":309.338,"end":325.554,"text":"那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理"},{"start":326.615,"end":344.942,"text":"醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對 所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉 次長的態度呢"},{"start":345.7,"end":361.766,"text":"所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說的不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的"},{"start":365.307,"end":387.899,"text":"我這兩天看了一些文獻,那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到,比如說我要找一個所謂的sex harassment care provider to patient結果他那個題目自動會回到patient to care provider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾"},{"start":389.7,"end":405.155,"text":"幾乎是沒有潛力可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在繁殖這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以"},{"start":405.615,"end":420.052,"text":"可以去看的包括委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家"},{"start":420.472,"end":441.81,"text":"所以他事實上就是在信憑三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在信憑三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的要注意是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝"},{"start":443.171,"end":472.288,"text":"他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能去單獨值班跟看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是形同因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個"},{"start":473.248,"end":498.405,"text":"完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝"},{"start":501.769,"end":502.391,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝次長 院長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時9分）有請次長跟吳院長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：次長好、吳院長好。臺上目前這個位置，我們4個醫生來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題，我覺得這個問題讓我們醫護人員很大的蒙塵，讓我們覺得很羞愧，像剛剛幾個委員講的，懲處的部分動作太慢。我們看一下，我們的性平三法制定到現在大概還不到兩年的時間，我們再看這個名稱：「性騷擾防治法」、「性別平等工作法」、「性別平等教育法」，但這些法裡面沒有提到醫護人員，所以感覺最認真的是教育單位，我們每次看到被懲處或者是動作最迅速的都是老師。其實那麼多的案件，我看加加減減，成立的案件大概也有1,677案，然後勞動部在去年有做了一個職場調查，調查哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾的，結果醫療、社福業是前三大。次長，你有什麼看法嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，就像我們剛剛說的，醫事人員在國家是領有相關證照的，在繼續教育裡面都有提到性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分，理論上來說，我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識，而且要遵守法律。也跟委員報告，這也是在性平三法之後，各自都有一定的責任，尤其在勞動部可以去提到的部分，事實上就是依照性平三法，而性平三法中的性別平等工作法，事實上在內部就有要求……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾的問題？可能因為我們是肢體接觸最多的行業，所以這個分際可能要拿捏得最要緊。所以想問院長，那位性騷擾的醫師，也是婦產科主任，他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎？你怎麼去做勾稽跟確定？"],["吳院長明賢：事實上我們每年都有辦，在職工……"],["盧委員縣一：可是他到底有沒有去上課？因為主任、部長或者是教授，是不是因為他們有這樣的職稱，所以都沒有去上課，他都不管所謂的性別平等教育的這些東西？"],["吳院長明賢：在醫師方面，我們全院的主治醫師一年有兩次，而且那個都要刷卡，我們有主治醫師的……"],["盧委員縣一：所以他的課是白上了嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：這個我沒辦法回答。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，那我們就針對沒有停職的部分，你看教師法第十四條、第十五條、第十八條、第三十一條，只要有一個案情確立的話，他就會被停職。醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了？不要講醫師啦！我們醫護人員，包括牙醫師、復健師等等，會不會因為沒有相關的法規而造成沒有辦法符合馬上停職的條件？"],["吳院長明賢：這一點我是同意委員的看法，法律只是道德的最低標準，所以在醫師的懲戒裡面，有一些不是違法，而是違反醫學倫理，也可以送懲戒。事實上特別是醫師這個團體，對自己的倫理要求是滿高的，我也很遺憾發生這樣的事情……"],["盧委員縣一：所以婦產部發生這樣的事情，你們有沒有檢討以後要如何防範，或者有沒有更高的標準來面對婦產部之後的檢討、改善？"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝委員，事實上我們有做了很多防範，包括在事件發生以後，我們有全科的教育，要求所有不管是男性、女性醫師在做內診的時候，一定要有護理師在場，這個是最基本的要求。"],["盧委員縣一：怎麼很像回到好幾十年前的教育，我的意思是，已經到這個年代了，已經都在上性別平等教育了，為什麼還是沒有辦法防範？我的意思是，有沒有更好的想法來防範這樣的事情？"],["吳院長明賢：甚至上次發生C姓醫師事件的時候，雖然性平三法沒有規定要通知，但是在還沒有修法之前，我們在陳昭姿委員的建議下，也是主動移送衛生局跟醫師公會，所以事實上我們可以再更積極，雖然法律沒有明文規定……"],["盧委員縣一：所以醫師法是不是需要改進？次長這邊可以回答嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒。另外再補充，事實上醫事人員同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身分，以臺大為例，在臺大醫院工作本身就符合性別平等工作法；而如果他在學校是有教職的，他也符合性別平等教育法；另外，所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的範圍之內。"],["盧委員縣一：像老師的部分有所謂的解聘以及終身不得再聘任，所以醫師的部分是不是應該比照辦理？"],["林次長靜儀：醫師的部分如果走進醫師懲戒辦法內部，也會有吊照或者是取消執照的部分。"],["盧委員縣一：但我們看到他還可以大剌剌地代表臺灣去參加日本的交流，而且是以理事長的身分，就像之前的委員講的，讓我們覺得真的是丟了我們國家的臉，次長的態度呢？"],["林次長靜儀：所以我剛剛也一再強調，事實上這些事件的發生，我認為大家都是專技人員，也都受過我剛剛說的性別平等相關課程的高級知識分子，大家對於自己的行為跟倫理，以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範，應該要更加嚴格才行。"],["盧委員縣一：我這兩天看了一些文獻，我一直想試圖去找，比如說，我要找一個所謂的sexual harassment、care provider to patient，結果那個題目自動會回到「patient to care provider」，也就是說，常常是病人對醫護人員性騷擾，可是在臺灣發生的卻是醫護人員對病人性騷擾，所以幾乎是沒有前例可循，以後臺灣可能會變成在防治這樣作為上的一個指標。所以次長應該要多做努力，才不會讓人覺得怎麼臺灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情，因為在引用文獻上，是沒有資料可以看的。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，沒有錯，誠如委員所說的，在國外很多研究都是針對病人對醫療人員，不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員，事實上過去有一些護理師是被病患騷擾……"],["盧委員縣一：當然啦！所以我就說像這樣的態樣，是不是應該就要公布給大家知道？"],["林次長靜儀：所以這也是為什麼在前年修法的時候會去做一些補強，就是在性平三法內部，我們讓行為人可以立刻進行調查，或者是在這個過程中調離他原來的職務等這些相關的規則。"],["盧委員縣一：那個住院醫師可以被訓練三年半，然後都沒有做任何的處置，台大這邊有沒有解釋？"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝。他發生的時候是在110年，那時候還沒有修法，我們當時其實也把他調離原來的職務，不讓他去單獨值班跟看急診的病患，而且我們有特別找了主治醫師給他輔導。其實他雖然沒有被停職，但也是形同停職，因為他發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部，所以在完成調查以後，我們也給他記了兩個過，可是那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職，因為要免職這個職權，我雖然是院長，但是免職也是要根據性平委員會……"],["盧委員縣一：還是希望次長跟院長能夠在法規上面多去精進，或者是看看有沒有最快的方式可以來處理這件事情，不要一直讓人覺得臺灣是一個性騷擾的天堂，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員，謝謝次長、院長。","繼續請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}