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{\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 117.712, \"end\": 117.972, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 117.972, \"end\": 118.372, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 118.372, \"end\": 118.452, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 118.452, \"end\": 118.592, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 118.592, \"end\": 118.912, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 118.912, \"end\": 119.392, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 119.392, \"end\": 119.592, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 119.592, \"end\": 119.732, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 119.732, \"end\": 119.993, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 119.993, \"end\": 120.173, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 120.173, \"end\": 120.333, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 120.333, \"end\": 120.713, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 120.713, \"end\": 121.133, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 121.133, \"end\": 121.433, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"互\", \"start\": 121.433, \"end\": 121.553, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 121.553, \"end\": 121.653, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 121.653, \"end\": 123.094, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 123.094, \"end\": 123.714, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 123.714, \"end\": 124.354, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 124.354, \"end\": 124.494, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 124.494, \"end\": 124.514, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 124.514, \"end\": 124.614, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 124.614, \"end\": 124.754, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 124.754, \"end\": 124.874, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 124.874, \"end\": 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因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 420.903, \"end\": 421.263, \"score\": 0.577}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 421.263, \"end\": 421.463, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 421.463, \"end\": 421.604, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 421.604, \"end\": 421.944, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"畢\"}, {\"word\": \"竟\", \"start\": 421.944, \"end\": 422.124, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 422.124, \"end\": 422.344, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 422.344, \"end\": 422.604, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 422.604, \"end\": 422.944, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 422.944, \"end\": 423.084, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 423.084, \"end\": 423.304, \"score\": 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00:00:45,677\n他呢從福建福州某一個地方到漁船出海然後經過台灣海峽然後呢在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢再進入高雄港然後呢再來呢這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面\n\n4\n00:01:02,020 --> 00:01:30,848\n然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的\n\n5\n00:01:31,648 --> 00:01:51,788\n作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問\n\n6\n00:01:53,490 --> 00:02:08,696\n一直以來發生這樣的事情國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有就只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞有破口的存在\n\n7\n00:02:09,136 --> 00:02:28,780\n那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,162 --> 00:02:52,716\n有有這部分的數字我們是數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我素面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊\n\n9\n00:02:56,653 --> 00:03:07,081\n喔抱歉去年是有20件那今年有13件喔所以23加13哇那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊已經可以包一台遊覽車啦一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛\n\n10\n00:03:13,826 --> 00:03:28,054\n已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧\n\n11\n00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:56,549\n你剛說前年是幾個案子今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子今年目前有13個案子你看現在才5月而已嘛就13個案子了所以很有可能到如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個國安保護的一個羞辱\n\n12\n00:04:01,411 --> 00:04:04,353\n所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有中國大陸的這個樣態\n\n13\n00:04:24,608 --> 00:04:46,427\n但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講\n\n14\n00:04:47,768 --> 00:05:11,184\n前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞\n\n15\n00:05:11,624 --> 00:05:39,105\n然後呢不是不要說我陰謀論霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢對才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的應該要用最大的惡意詳查\n\n16\n00:05:40,006 --> 00:06:05,275\n所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎\n\n17\n00:06:06,455 --> 00:06:31,075\n目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意對所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋那520的時候也不是520就是\n\n18\n00:06:32,476 --> 00:07:00,303\n我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢\n\n19\n00:07:00,903 --> 00:07:11,489\n對因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的\n\n20\n00:07:23,695 --> 00:07:27,836\n但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意因為呢這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡呢卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人民的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的\n\n21\n00:07:50,543 --> 00:08:09,459\n那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的\n\n22\n00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,484\n所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來提出相關的案情目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有寧津天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊\n\n23\n00:08:38,080 --> 00:09:04,835\n那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說\n\n24\n00:09:06,775 --> 00:09:10,699\n有關於這個520這個賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為\n\n25\n00:09:27,216 --> 00:09:54,274\n過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到\n\n26\n00:09:56,996 --> 00:10:11,461\n這個部分我想就國安局長的立場跟身份我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容該講什麼不該講什麼但是在國安體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案國安會再宣示兩岸的政策\n\n27\n00:10:13,261 --> 00:10:37,806\n這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的\n\n28\n00:10:39,487 --> 00:11:08,509\n這部分總統的談話搞的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子的情況\n\n29\n00:11:08,829 --> 00:11:36,344\n兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的資安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點\n\n30\n00:11:36,985 --> 00:11:47,800\n那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n110\t1339\t主席我們請局長請蔡局長\n8376\t36635\t好 謝謝主席 薛委員早早安那其實這一陣子以來我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸這邊有一些人他可能橡皮艇或者是說他可能各式各樣的方式然後就可以隨隨便便的進到台灣裡面了甚至我今天舉個例子來給大家看那就是去年九月的時候有一個理性的男子經過一個中國籍綽號叫做小陳的男子介紹\n37335\t45677\t他呢 從福建 福州某一個地方到漁船出海 然後經過台灣海峽然後呢 在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢 再進入高雄港然後呢 再來呢 這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢 就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面\n62020\t90848\t然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的\n91648\t111788\t作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問\n113490\t128696\t一直以來發生這樣的事情 國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有 就 只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞 有破口的存在\n129136\t148780\t那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎\n156162\t172716\t有有這部分的數字我們是數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我素面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊\n176653\t187081\t喔 抱歉 去年是有20件 那今年有13件喔 所以23加13 哇 那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊 已經可以包一台遊覽車啦一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛\n193826\t208054\t已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧\n215879\t236549\t你剛說前年是幾個案子 今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子 今年目前有13個案子你看 現在才5月而已嘛 就13個案子了所以很有可能到 如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候 我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要 因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個 國安保護的一個羞辱\n241411\t244353\t所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有中國大陸的這個樣態\n264608\t286427\t但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講\n287768\t311184\t前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞\n311624\t339105\t然後呢 不是不要說我陰謀論 霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢 放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢 對 才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的應該要用最大的惡意詳查\n340006\t365275\t所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛 但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎\n366455\t391075\t目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意對 所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋那520的時候 也不是520 就是\n392476\t420303\t我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢\n420903\t431489\t對 因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的\n443695\t447836\t但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意因為呢這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡呢卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人民的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的\n470543\t489459\t那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的\n490160\t495484\t所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來提出相關的案情目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有寧津天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊\n518080\t544835\t那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說\n546775\t550699\t有關於這個520這個賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為\n567216\t594274\t過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到\n596996\t611461\t這個部分我想就國安局長的立場跟身份我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容該講什麼不該講什麼但是在國安體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案國安會再宣示兩岸的政策\n613261\t637806\t這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的\n639487\t668509\t這部分總統的談話搞的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子的情況\n668829\t696344\t兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的資安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點\n696985\t707800\t那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝\n","txt":"主席我們請局長請蔡局長\n好 謝謝主席 薛委員早早安那其實這一陣子以來我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸這邊有一些人他可能橡皮艇或者是說他可能各式各樣的方式然後就可以隨隨便便的進到台灣裡面了甚至我今天舉個例子來給大家看那就是去年九月的時候有一個理性的男子經過一個中國籍綽號叫做小陳的男子介紹\n他呢 從福建 福州某一個地方到漁船出海 然後經過台灣海峽然後呢 在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢 再進入高雄港然後呢 再來呢 這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢 就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面\n然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的\n作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問\n一直以來發生這樣的事情 國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有 就 只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞 有破口的存在\n那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎\n有有這部分的數字我們是數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我素面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊\n喔 抱歉 去年是有20件 那今年有13件喔 所以23加13 哇 那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊 已經可以包一台遊覽車啦一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛\n已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧\n你剛說前年是幾個案子 今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子 今年目前有13個案子你看 現在才5月而已嘛 就13個案子了所以很有可能到 如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候 我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要 因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個 國安保護的一個羞辱\n所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有中國大陸的這個樣態\n但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講\n前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞\n然後呢 不是不要說我陰謀論 霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢 放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢 對 才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的應該要用最大的惡意詳查\n所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛 但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎\n目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意對 所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋那520的時候 也不是520 就是\n我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢\n對 因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的\n但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意因為呢這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡呢卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人民的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的\n那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的\n所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來提出相關的案情目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有寧津天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊\n那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說\n有關於這個520這個賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為\n過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到\n這個部分我想就國安局長的立場跟身份我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容該講什麼不該講什麼但是在國安體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案國安會再宣示兩岸的政策\n這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的\n這部分總統的談話搞的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子的情況\n兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的資安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點\n那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.110 --> 00:01.339\n主席我們請局長請蔡局長\n\n00:08.376 --> 00:36.635\n好謝謝主席薛委員早早安那其實這一陣子以來我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸這邊有一些人他可能橡皮艇或者是說他可能各式各樣的方式然後就可以隨隨便便的進到台灣裡面了甚至我今天舉個例子來給大家看那就是去年九月的時候有一個理性的男子經過一個中國籍綽號叫做小陳的男子介紹\n\n00:37.335 --> 00:45.677\n他呢從福建福州某一個地方到漁船出海然後經過台灣海峽然後呢在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢再進入高雄港然後呢再來呢這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面\n\n01:02.020 --> 01:30.848\n然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的\n\n01:31.648 --> 01:51.788\n作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問\n\n01:53.490 --> 02:08.696\n一直以來發生這樣的事情國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有就只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞有破口的存在\n\n02:09.136 --> 02:28.780\n那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎\n\n02:36.162 --> 02:52.716\n有有這部分的數字我們是數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我素面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊\n\n02:56.653 --> 03:07.081\n喔抱歉去年是有20件那今年有13件喔所以23加13哇那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊已經可以包一台遊覽車啦一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛\n\n03:13.826 --> 03:28.054\n已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧\n\n03:35.879 --> 03:56.549\n你剛說前年是幾個案子今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子今年目前有13個案子你看現在才5月而已嘛就13個案子了所以很有可能到如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個國安保護的一個羞辱\n\n04:01.411 --> 04:04.353\n所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有中國大陸的這個樣態\n\n04:24.608 --> 04:46.427\n但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講\n\n04:47.768 --> 05:11.184\n前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞\n\n05:11.624 --> 05:39.105\n然後呢不是不要說我陰謀論霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢對才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的應該要用最大的惡意詳查\n\n05:40.006 --> 06:05.275\n所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎\n\n06:06.455 --> 06:31.075\n目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意對所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋那520的時候也不是520就是\n\n06:32.476 --> 07:00.303\n我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢\n\n07:00.903 --> 07:11.489\n對因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的\n\n07:23.695 --> 07:27.836\n但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意因為呢這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡呢卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人民的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的\n\n07:50.543 --> 08:09.459\n那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的\n\n08:10.160 --> 08:15.484\n所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來提出相關的案情目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有寧津天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊\n\n08:38.080 --> 09:04.835\n那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說\n\n09:06.775 --> 09:10.699\n有關於這個520這個賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為\n\n09:27.216 --> 09:54.274\n過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到\n\n09:56.996 --> 10:11.461\n這個部分我想就國安局長的立場跟身份我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容該講什麼不該講什麼但是在國安體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案國安會再宣示兩岸的政策\n\n10:13.261 --> 10:37.806\n這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的\n\n10:39.487 --> 11:08.509\n這部分總統的談話搞的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子的情況\n\n11:08.829 --> 11:36.344\n兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的資安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點\n\n11:36.985 --> 11:47.800\n那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.11,"end":1.339,"text":"主席我們請局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8.376,"end":36.635,"text":"好 謝謝主席 薛委員早早安那其實這一陣子以來我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸這邊有一些人他可能橡皮艇或者是說他可能各式各樣的方式然後就可以隨隨便便的進到台灣裡面了甚至我今天舉個例子來給大家看那就是去年九月的時候有一個理性的男子經過一個中國籍綽號叫做小陳的男子介紹"},{"start":37.335,"end":45.677,"text":"他呢 從福建 福州某一個地方到漁船出海 然後經過台灣海峽然後呢 在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢 再進入高雄港然後呢 再來呢 這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢 就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面"},{"start":62.02,"end":90.848,"text":"然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的"},{"start":91.648,"end":111.788,"text":"作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問"},{"start":113.49,"end":128.696,"text":"一直以來發生這樣的事情 國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有 就 只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞 有破口的存在"},{"start":129.136,"end":148.78,"text":"那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎"},{"start":156.162,"end":172.716,"text":"有有這部分的數字我們是數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我素面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊"},{"start":176.653,"end":187.081,"text":"喔 抱歉 去年是有20件 那今年有13件喔 所以23加13 哇 那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊 已經可以包一台遊覽車啦一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛"},{"start":193.826,"end":208.054,"text":"已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧"},{"start":215.879,"end":236.549,"text":"你剛說前年是幾個案子 今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子 今年目前有13個案子你看 現在才5月而已嘛 就13個案子了所以很有可能到 如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候 我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要 因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個 國安保護的一個羞辱"},{"start":241.411,"end":244.353,"text":"所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有中國大陸的這個樣態"},{"start":264.608,"end":286.427,"text":"但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講"},{"start":287.768,"end":311.184,"text":"前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞"},{"start":311.624,"end":339.105,"text":"然後呢 不是不要說我陰謀論 霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢 放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢 對 才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的應該要用最大的惡意詳查"},{"start":340.006,"end":365.275,"text":"所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛 但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎"},{"start":366.455,"end":391.075,"text":"目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意對 所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋那520的時候 也不是520 就是"},{"start":392.476,"end":420.303,"text":"我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢"},{"start":420.903,"end":431.489,"text":"對 因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到講這樣子的內容蠻集中的我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的"},{"start":443.695,"end":447.836,"text":"但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意因為呢這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡呢卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人民的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的"},{"start":470.543,"end":489.459,"text":"那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的"},{"start":490.16,"end":495.484,"text":"所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來提出相關的案情目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有寧津天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊"},{"start":518.08,"end":544.835,"text":"那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說"},{"start":546.775,"end":550.699,"text":"有關於這個520這個賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為"},{"start":567.216,"end":594.274,"text":"過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到"},{"start":596.996,"end":611.461,"text":"這個部分我想就國安局長的立場跟身份我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容該講什麼不該講什麼但是在國安體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案國安會再宣示兩岸的政策"},{"start":613.261,"end":637.806,"text":"這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的"},{"start":639.487,"end":668.509,"text":"這部分總統的談話搞的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子的情況"},{"start":668.829,"end":696.344,"text":"兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的資安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點"},{"start":696.985,"end":707.8,"text":"那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時34分）謝謝主席，請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安。其實這一陣子以來，我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸有一些人，他可能是開橡皮艇或者是用各式各樣的方式就可以隨隨便便進到臺灣裡面，甚至我今天舉一個例子來給大家看，去年9月的時候，有一名中國籍李姓男子，他經過綽號叫做「小陳」的中國籍男子介紹，從福建福州某一個地方搭漁船出海，經過臺灣海峽，然後在臺灣海峽某個地方進到坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面，然後再進入高雄港。再來這名李姓男子與綽號威廉的我國黃姓男子（另案偵辦中）接洽，他下船之後就到旗津某一家民宿裡面住宿，玩了老半天，在11月13號玩了兩個月以後，他主動前往內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首。類似的情況很多，而且他們都是自首以後才被發現的，我想請問局長，這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞？也代表不論是移民署也好，或是海巡也好，我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足，作為國安局局長，你覺得應該要怎麼樣彌補這個漏洞？因為類似的案子已經發生很多次了，都不是我們發現的，都是他們上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的，這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已，這根本就是對我們在海巡、在邊界相關單位的羞辱，請問一直以來發生這樣的事情，國安局有沒有任何舉措能夠去防止這樣的行為？或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，只要有任何一個這樣的案例發生，都代表我們有漏洞、有破口的存在，當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣，大概會涉及到的除了有海防、岸巡以及移民、入境或是港口的管理以外，國安團隊也會針對不同個案通報各個單位，看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較全盤通案的檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！你們有沒有算過從賴總統上任以來，有幾件類似這樣子的樣態嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分的……"],["徐委員巧芯：幾件？"],["蔡局長明彥：數字我們是有……"],["徐委員巧芯：數字可不可以現在告訴我？就是中國大陸的人民用任何的方式就自己跑到臺灣來了。"],["蔡局長明彥：同仁剛剛提供給我的書面資料跟委員報告一下，去年的類案大概有23件……"],["徐委員巧芯：23件！23個人啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：抱歉，去年是有20件，今年有13件，到目前……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是23加13，那就是有36個人哦！那已經可以包一台遊覽車了。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該是20加13。"],["徐委員巧芯：20加13，那也差不多啊！已經可以包一台遊覽車了，一台遊覽車大概40個人左右，人數已經多到可以包一台遊覽車了，結果我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生，而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了，什麼橡皮艇的、自拍的，然後沒留下紀錄的，好像從大陸過來隨隨便便的就上岸了，而且到現在還持續增加當中對吧？你剛剛說前年是幾個案子？今年是幾個案子？"],["蔡局長明彥：去年有20個案子，今年到目前有13個案子。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看現在才5月而已，就已經有13個案子了，如果我們沒有做任何修正的話，很有可能到年底的時候，今年的數量還會超過去年，我希望不要有這種情況出現，因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題，甚至是對中華民國相關國安保護的羞辱。所以我希望在這一點上面，國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進，而且要有很具體的作法，然後要很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍，我們經常在國安局的報告裡面看到認知作戰，其實認知作戰有好幾種，可能有中國大陸的樣態，但是在臺灣方面，如果我們臺灣自己人針對重大事件進行認知作戰或是傳遞假訊息的話，其實這也會演變成一個國安危機，就是說國安危機不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰，在臺灣裡面釋放假訊息的時候，其實也跟國安有關係。","我舉個例子來講，針對前幾天的車禍，你可以看到在很多地方就這樣寫：連續好幾天有人開車暴衝人群跟店家，小心是中國內應在搞事，因為520就職一週年在即，所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子暴衝都很詭異，覺得是中國在搞，不要說我陰謀論，罷團帳號事件、五月天跟世壯運的木馬進來的敵人有多少，放學時間已經被中國人直播得一清二楚，然後就有汽車衝撞，對！才在學區直播，結果馬上出事，說懷疑其實不為過，可能就是共產黨的隔空操作，解放軍可能真的滲入了，搞事在進行中，中國沒有什麼不敢做的，應該用最大的惡意詳查。","所以有非常多在Threads裡面寫說，三峽的車禍案件是中國內應在搞事。就國安體系所掌握的情資，這個三峽車禍跟中國或共諜是有關係的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前案子還在偵辦，因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救，所以可能要再……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但是由你們目前的瞭解，它跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前還要再調查，才知道實際的動機。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查喔？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前沒有通報到這個層面來……"],["徐委員巧芯：是嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：網路上有這樣的討論，我們會來注意。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。所以我的意思是，如果它本身並不是這個樣子，但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話，其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任及敵意的螺旋。其實賴清德總統也講說兩岸之間的和平很重要，當然，有關於中國大陸如果對臺灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話，我們一定是反對到底的，可是另一方面來說，如果有人（他甚至也有可能是反串的，我不知道）開始在網路上傳遞類似的仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候，是不是也是某種程度的認知作戰，應該也要被做相對應的管理及查核呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案子畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注，所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論，我們會再注意一下各種討論有沒有涉及到……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，因為講這樣子的內容滿集中的，我今天只是舉幾個案例而已，但是滿集中做這個討論，然後引導一個風向，說這個三峽的車禍是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的，但是如果事實不是這樣的話，讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳，其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意，因為中國大陸也會看，它會覺得這件事情跟它沒有關係，為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息？我們這裡卻不斷地傳這個假訊息，也讓我們的民眾誤認或被誤導，誤以為涉及這麼多人命的命案竟然是中國大陸發動的，這個對於我國來說，坦白講，如果真的像他們講的，是中共的內應撞傷、撞死我們臺灣人民的話，那就是非常、非常天大、大條的事情，但是目前就您來說，還有就目前看到的情況，是沒有的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以目前看起來並沒有發生這樣的事？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，還是要由警方跟檢調來進行相關的案情……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，可是目前我們在官方上面，不管是新聞媒體的報導，還是包含交通部、教育部、衛福部，還有今天的國安局，都沒有提到目前這個三峽開車撞人的肇事者是中國人或是他不是。我跟你講，網路上一大堆的人問他是不是中國駕駛，或者他是因為被滲透了，所以要故意撞人，但是不管是官方或新聞都沒有這樣的評論，或是沒有這樣的討論，可是網路上面卻有非常多的假消息。我覺得假消息不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰，在臺灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併討論及一併處理，而不是單方面的。","最後我要問一個問題，520賴清德總統的談話全篇共提及臺灣38次、美國7次，也有談到菲律賓、印度、越南、泰國、加拿大等其他國家，卻完全沒有提到中國或是中共，也沒有提到中華民國。我想請問一下局長，兩岸關係對於臺灣來說其實非常重要，過去在520的演說裡面，總統們大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法，不管是正面的或負面的都會有，請問一下，在國安的部分，他這次沒有提到中國或中共，國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向，你覺得有什麼樣的原因，所以賴總統沒有提到這個部分？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想就國安局局長的立場跟身分，我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容、該講什麼、不該講什麼……"],["徐委員巧芯：我的問題是說……"],["蔡局長明彥：但是在國安體系裡面，因為總統在今年的2月跟3月都有召開專案國安會議在宣示兩岸的政策，這部分我們會依照總統的指示來做。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，這個我知道，我的意思只是在520這一天，就國安局所掌握的情況，是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險，以至於總統在談話裡面可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的部分，以及中國、中共相關宣示的部分？因為就像你剛剛講的，之前的說法跟520正式的演說，兩者的層級及高度其實是不一樣的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，總統談話稿的內容、該講什麼、不該講什麼、在什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息，我想還是要尊重府方相關的判斷跟做法。"],["徐委員巧芯：我說尊重府方，這個跟你沒有關係，但是我要問的是，就我們國安所掌握的情況，是否有兩岸情勢愈演愈烈，或者美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來，導致我們不希望引起衝突，所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意地不提到中國跟中共的情況？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩岸情勢的部分，我剛剛有跟其他委員說明，因為在520之前國安局確實有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態、灰帶的、資安的跟假訊息的操作，目前來講看到這段的時間點，主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在金門周邊海域的活動，以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作，看起來比較像是這一波主要的操作重點。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好。未來偷渡案件再麻煩國安局協同其他單位去做改善。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，應該的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的。謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":42,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-16","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","林憶君","陳培瑜","陳永康"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案","agenda_id":"1145201_00001"}}}