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0.999}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 318.194, \"end\": 318.434, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 318.434, \"end\": 318.874, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 318.874, \"end\": 319.175, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 319.175, \"end\": 319.395, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 319.395, \"end\": 319.695, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 319.695, \"end\": 320.636, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"盈\", \"start\": 320.636, \"end\": 320.836, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 320.836, \"end\": 322.057, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 322.057, \"end\": 322.358, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 322.358, \"end\": 322.638, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 322.638, \"end\": 322.818, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 322.818, \"end\": 323.018, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 323.018, \"end\": 323.218, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 323.218, \"end\": 323.419, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 323.419, \"end\": 323.879, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 323.879, \"end\": 324.44, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 324.44, \"end\": 324.58, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 324.58, \"end\": 324.76, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 324.76, \"end\": 324.78, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"們\"}]}, {\"start\": 326.121, \"end\": 347.246, \"text\": \"我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 326.121, \"end\": 326.321, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 326.321, \"end\": 326.501, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 326.501, \"end\": 326.721, \"score\": 0.847}, 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沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 804.39, \"end\": 804.671, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 804.671, \"end\": 806.512, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 806.512, \"end\": 806.952, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 806.952, \"end\": 807.093, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 807.093, \"end\": 807.253, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 807.253, \"end\": 808.193, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 808.193, \"end\": 810.616, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 810.616, \"end\": 810.936, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 810.936, \"end\": 811.096, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": 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00:00:09,672\n好其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好有請陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:11,514 --> 00:00:38,445\n兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚嗎核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎\n\n3\n00:00:40,186 --> 00:00:58,040\n不是我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說你能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到\n\n4\n00:01:05,005 --> 00:01:08,468\n我覺得這件事情我現在給你一個時間我把我時間給你請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸對吧所以可不可以請\n\n5\n00:01:21,516 --> 00:01:36,077\n主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電受了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n\n6\n00:01:38,219 --> 00:02:05,258\n這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等\n\n7\n00:02:07,259 --> 00:02:26,597\n那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程\n\n8\n00:02:27,998 --> 00:02:43,171\n那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎\n\n9\n00:02:46,406 --> 00:03:08,855\n跟委員說明那照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的\n\n10\n00:03:09,355 --> 00:03:29,595\n那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧\n\n11\n00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:52,502\n這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它補回並不是申請的時候一定會讓\n\n12\n00:03:52,842 --> 00:04:21,578\n我的意思是說並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛對不對是是是所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有目前還看不到\n\n13\n00:04:22,598 --> 00:04:33,927\n所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好那接下來我先回到中研院抱歉請中研院\n\n14\n00:04:47,319 --> 00:05:04,917\n我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATUREINDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n\n15\n00:05:05,802 --> 00:05:24,780\n我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的所以我們\n\n16\n00:05:26,121 --> 00:05:47,246\n我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向\n\n17\n00:05:47,506 --> 00:06:02,778\n好那這個時候我們就時間來討論好不好因為這也不是我今天最主要的題目最主要的題目其實是說我其實也有發現我們中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的一些論文而且其實都是在很不錯的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我們的行星科學家葉勇\n\n18\n00:06:03,599 --> 00:06:05,359\n中研院一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流\n\n19\n00:06:29,246 --> 00:06:50,761\n也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%\n\n20\n00:06:52,842 --> 00:07:12,552\n那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下\n\n21\n00:07:15,078 --> 00:07:39,076\n對這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響\n\n22\n00:07:40,868 --> 00:07:50,882\n會去喊咖了嗎沒有喊咖但是我們會把經費下修那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目\n\n23\n00:07:52,512 --> 00:08:11,654\n但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后\n\n24\n00:08:12,334 --> 00:08:33,431\n那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是\n\n25\n00:08:34,332 --> 00:09:02,811\n但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億\n\n26\n00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:15,030\n兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢\n\n27\n00:09:17,017 --> 00:09:36,946\n那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響\n\n28\n00:09:37,866 --> 00:10:05,340\n但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對那不可因為我們現在走到五月對那請一些\n\n29\n00:10:06,761 --> 00:10:17,630\n委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續\n\n30\n00:10:19,736 --> 00:10:38,529\nOK好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢\n\n31\n00:10:39,469 --> 00:10:50,873\n電子的儀器包括像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎\n\n32\n00:10:53,797 --> 00:11:03,648\n目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了\n\n33\n00:11:12,418 --> 00:11:31,224\n所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應對不對是的高階儀器我們都會事先優先的能夠保持住\n\n34\n00:11:33,605 --> 00:11:47,834\n好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說\n\n35\n00:11:51,156 --> 00:12:10,870\n我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界\n\n36\n00:12:12,751 --> 00:12:40,737\n那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說\n\n37\n00:12:41,917 --> 00:13:02,674\n我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來\n\n38\n00:13:03,835 --> 00:13:23,101\n做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答\n\n39\n00:13:24,390 --> 00:13:47,590\n委員好針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關是沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果\n\n40\n00:13:48,170 --> 00:14:17,290\n所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家\n\n41\n00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:42,247\n自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上\n\n42\n00:14:51,232 --> 00:15:08,620\n我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有\n\n43\n00:15:12,682 --> 00:15:20,794\n一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子\n\n44\n00:15:25,767 --> 00:15:54,369\n環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝\n\n45\n00:15:55,930 --> 00:16:01,544\n好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n245\t9672\t好 其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好 有請陳主委\n11514\t38445\t兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚嗎核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎\n40186\t58040\t不是我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說你能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到\n65005\t68468\t我覺得這件事情我現在給你一個時間我把我時間給你 請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸 對吧所以可不可以請\n81516\t96077\t主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電受了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n98219\t125258\t這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等\n127259\t146597\t那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程\n147998\t163171\t那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎\n166406\t188855\t跟委員說明那照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的\n189355\t209595\t那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧\n211356\t232502\t這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對 所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它補回並不是申請的時候一定會讓\n232842\t261578\t我的意思是說 並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛 對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛 對不對是是是 所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛 對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有 目前還看不到\n262598\t273927\t所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好那接下來我先回到中研院抱歉請中研院\n287319\t304917\t我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATURE INDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n305802\t324780\t我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的所以我們\n326121\t347246\t我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向\n347506\t362778\t好那這個時候我們就時間來討論好不好因為這也不是我今天最主要的題目最主要的題目其實是說我其實也有發現我們中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的一些論文而且其實都是在很不錯的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我們的行星科學家葉勇\n363599\t365359\t中研院一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流\n389246\t410761\t也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%\n412842\t432552\t那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下\n435078\t459076\t對 這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員 國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響\n460868\t470882\t會去喊咖了嗎沒有喊咖但是我們會把經費下修那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目\n472512\t491654\t但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后\n492334\t513431\t那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是\n514332\t542811\t但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億\n546716\t555030\t兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢\n557017\t576946\t那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響\n577866\t605340\t但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對 那不可因為我們現在走到五月對 那請一些\n606761\t617630\t委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續\n619736\t638529\tOK 好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢\n639469\t650873\t電子的儀器包括像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎\n653797\t663648\t目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了\n672418\t691224\t所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應對不對是的 高階儀器我們都會事先 優先的能夠保持住\n693605\t707834\t好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說\n711156\t730870\t我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界\n732751\t760737\t那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說\n761917\t782674\t我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來\n783835\t803101\t做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答\n804390\t827590\t委員好 針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關是 沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果\n828170\t857290\t所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家\n858090\t882247\t自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上\n891232\t908620\t我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有\n912682\t920794\t一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子\n925767\t954369\t環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝\n955930\t961544\t好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華\n","txt":"好 其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好 有請陳主委\n兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚嗎核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎\n不是我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說你能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到\n我覺得這件事情我現在給你一個時間我把我時間給你 請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸 對吧所以可不可以請\n主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電受了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等\n那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程\n那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎\n跟委員說明那照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的\n那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧\n這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對 所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它補回並不是申請的時候一定會讓\n我的意思是說 並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛 對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛 對不對是是是 所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛 對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有 目前還看不到\n所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好那接下來我先回到中研院抱歉請中研院\n我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATURE INDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的所以我們\n我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向\n好那這個時候我們就時間來討論好不好因為這也不是我今天最主要的題目最主要的題目其實是說我其實也有發現我們中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的一些論文而且其實都是在很不錯的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我們的行星科學家葉勇\n中研院一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流\n也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%\n那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下\n對 這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員 國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響\n會去喊咖了嗎沒有喊咖但是我們會把經費下修那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目\n但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后\n那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是\n但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億\n兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢\n那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響\n但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對 那不可因為我們現在走到五月對 那請一些\n委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續\nOK 好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢\n電子的儀器包括像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎\n目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了\n所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應對不對是的 高階儀器我們都會事先 優先的能夠保持住\n好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說\n我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界\n那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說\n我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來\n做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答\n委員好 針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關是 沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果\n所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家\n自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上\n我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有\n一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子\n環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝\n好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.245 --> 00:09.672\n好其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好有請陳主委\n\n00:11.514 --> 00:38.445\n兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚嗎核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎\n\n00:40.186 --> 00:58.040\n不是我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說你能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到\n\n01:05.005 --> 01:08.468\n我覺得這件事情我現在給你一個時間我把我時間給你請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸對吧所以可不可以請\n\n01:21.516 --> 01:36.077\n主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電受了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n\n01:38.219 --> 02:05.258\n這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等\n\n02:07.259 --> 02:26.597\n那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程\n\n02:27.998 --> 02:43.171\n那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎\n\n02:46.406 --> 03:08.855\n跟委員說明那照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的\n\n03:09.355 --> 03:29.595\n那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧\n\n03:31.356 --> 03:52.502\n這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它補回並不是申請的時候一定會讓\n\n03:52.842 --> 04:21.578\n我的意思是說並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛對不對是是是所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有目前還看不到\n\n04:22.598 --> 04:33.927\n所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好那接下來我先回到中研院抱歉請中研院\n\n04:47.319 --> 05:04.917\n我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATUREINDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下\n\n05:05.802 --> 05:24.780\n我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的所以我們\n\n05:26.121 --> 05:47.246\n我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向\n\n05:47.506 --> 06:02.778\n好那這個時候我們就時間來討論好不好因為這也不是我今天最主要的題目最主要的題目其實是說我其實也有發現我們中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的一些論文而且其實都是在很不錯的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我們的行星科學家葉勇\n\n06:03.599 --> 06:05.359\n中研院一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流\n\n06:29.246 --> 06:50.761\n也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%\n\n06:52.842 --> 07:12.552\n那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下\n\n07:15.078 --> 07:39.076\n對這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響\n\n07:40.868 --> 07:50.882\n會去喊咖了嗎沒有喊咖但是我們會把經費下修那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目\n\n07:52.512 --> 08:11.654\n但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后\n\n08:12.334 --> 08:33.431\n那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是\n\n08:34.332 --> 09:02.811\n但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億\n\n09:06.716 --> 09:15.030\n兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢\n\n09:17.017 --> 09:36.946\n那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響\n\n09:37.866 --> 10:05.340\n但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對那不可因為我們現在走到五月對那請一些\n\n10:06.761 --> 10:17.630\n委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續\n\n10:19.736 --> 10:38.529\nOK好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢\n\n10:39.469 --> 10:50.873\n電子的儀器包括像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎\n\n10:53.797 --> 11:03.648\n目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了\n\n11:12.418 --> 11:31.224\n所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應對不對是的高階儀器我們都會事先優先的能夠保持住\n\n11:33.605 --> 11:47.834\n好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說\n\n11:51.156 --> 12:10.870\n我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界\n\n12:12.751 --> 12:40.737\n那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說\n\n12:41.917 --> 13:02.674\n我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來\n\n13:03.835 --> 13:23.101\n做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答\n\n13:24.390 --> 13:47.590\n委員好針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關是沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果\n\n13:48.170 --> 14:17.290\n所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家\n\n14:18.090 --> 14:42.247\n自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上\n\n14:51.232 --> 15:08.620\n我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有\n\n15:12.682 --> 15:20.794\n一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子\n\n15:25.767 --> 15:54.369\n環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝\n\n15:55.930 --> 16:01.544\n好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.245,"end":9.672,"text":"好 其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好 有請陳主委"},{"start":11.514,"end":38.445,"text":"兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚嗎核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎"},{"start":40.186,"end":58.04,"text":"不是我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說你能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到"},{"start":65.005,"end":68.468,"text":"我覺得這件事情我現在給你一個時間我把我時間給你 請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸 對吧所以可不可以請"},{"start":81.516,"end":96.077,"text":"主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電受了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":98.219,"end":125.258,"text":"這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等"},{"start":127.259,"end":146.597,"text":"那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程"},{"start":147.998,"end":163.171,"text":"那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎"},{"start":166.406,"end":188.855,"text":"跟委員說明那照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的"},{"start":189.355,"end":209.595,"text":"那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧"},{"start":211.356,"end":232.502,"text":"這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對 所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它補回並不是申請的時候一定會讓"},{"start":232.842,"end":261.578,"text":"我的意思是說 並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛 對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛 對不對是是是 所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛 對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有 目前還看不到"},{"start":262.598,"end":273.927,"text":"所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好那接下來我先回到中研院抱歉請中研院"},{"start":287.319,"end":304.917,"text":"我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATURE INDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":305.802,"end":324.78,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的所以我們"},{"start":326.121,"end":347.246,"text":"我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看他用什麼樣的這個原則還有他的來解所以這個有很多的面向"},{"start":347.506,"end":362.778,"text":"好那這個時候我們就時間來討論好不好因為這也不是我今天最主要的題目最主要的題目其實是說我其實也有發現我們中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的一些論文而且其實都是在很不錯的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我們的行星科學家葉勇"},{"start":363.599,"end":365.359,"text":"中研院一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流"},{"start":389.246,"end":410.761,"text":"也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%"},{"start":412.842,"end":432.552,"text":"那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下"},{"start":435.078,"end":459.076,"text":"對 這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員 國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響"},{"start":460.868,"end":470.882,"text":"會去喊咖了嗎沒有喊咖但是我們會把經費下修那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目"},{"start":472.512,"end":491.654,"text":"但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后"},{"start":492.334,"end":513.431,"text":"那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是"},{"start":514.332,"end":542.811,"text":"但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億"},{"start":546.716,"end":555.03,"text":"兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢"},{"start":557.017,"end":576.946,"text":"那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響"},{"start":577.866,"end":605.34,"text":"但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對 那不可因為我們現在走到五月對 那請一些"},{"start":606.761,"end":617.63,"text":"委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續"},{"start":619.736,"end":638.529,"text":"OK 好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢"},{"start":639.469,"end":650.873,"text":"電子的儀器包括像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎"},{"start":653.797,"end":663.648,"text":"目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了"},{"start":672.418,"end":691.224,"text":"所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應對不對是的 高階儀器我們都會事先 優先的能夠保持住"},{"start":693.605,"end":707.834,"text":"好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說"},{"start":711.156,"end":730.87,"text":"我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界"},{"start":732.751,"end":760.737,"text":"那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說"},{"start":761.917,"end":782.674,"text":"我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來"},{"start":783.835,"end":803.101,"text":"做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答"},{"start":804.39,"end":827.59,"text":"委員好 針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關是 沒錯那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果"},{"start":828.17,"end":857.29,"text":"所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家"},{"start":858.09,"end":882.247,"text":"自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上"},{"start":891.232,"end":908.62,"text":"我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有"},{"start":912.682,"end":920.794,"text":"一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子"},{"start":925.767,"end":954.369,"text":"環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝"},{"start":955.93,"end":961.544,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時32分）其實我今天本來沒有打算要先問核安會，但我剛剛聽完前面一位委員的答詢，我現在需要請核安會主委上來。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["張委員雅琳：兩件事情，我剛剛聽到前面謝龍介委員問你能不能確保安全，核安會能不能做得到？我先請問，今天拆開核電廠，因為今天核管法做的是核一、核二、核三，對吧？主委清楚嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我知道。"],["張委員雅琳：非常清楚嘛！核一、核二、核三現在你們都沒有打開來看，怎麼知道到底是不是能做到安全的部分呢？你們能夠隔空抓藥嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：不是，我剛剛回答的意思是，如果要重啟，一定要得到安全……"],["張委員雅琳：他有問你能不能確保喔！"],["陳主任委員明真：而且我們沒有說它一定可以合乎我們的要求，也不保證申請就會通過，我們就是……"],["張委員雅琳：剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證它申請一定會通過這句話，我坐在這邊聽，我是真的沒聽到。"],["陳主任委員明真：他只是說如果……"],["張委員雅琳：這件事情我現在給你一點時間，我把我的時間給你，請你說清楚現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間？而且據我所知，我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測核安，不是只有核安會自己說了就算，對吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：所以可不可以請主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程，台電送了申請之後，大概需要多少時間，然後流程是什麼？可不可以說明清楚，讓所有人知道，現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情，可不可以簡單說明？"],["陳主任委員明真：首先台電要先提出申請，台電要做很多準備工作，包括老化評估等等，這部分請高組長詳細說明。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，首先大院所通過的核管法修正條文，核安會要配合修訂子法，子法修訂的時候，要參考國內情境跟國外作法，然後納入子法去研訂相關的管制要求跟安全的技術規範。這個子法訂完之後，台電公司本身就要依照子法的相關規定去盤點重啟所需要的工作項目、安全條件……"],["張委員雅琳：完全與否大概需要多久的時間可以評估得出來？"],["高組長斌：如果是現場的部分，要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程，現在確實很難去了解對這部分他到底要花多少時間，因為目前國際的狀況也不太一樣。"],["張委員雅琳：我記得國際的時間是5到15年，對不對？今天台電有人來嗎？可以補充說明嗎？我記得我看的資料是5到15年，對吧？還是核安會可以說明？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，照之前的法規規定是5年前要提出來，主要是核安會審查的時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["高組長斌：那目前的情境確實不一樣，因為機組都進到除役，而除役的狀態跟運轉的狀態完全都不一樣，但是要做的老化評估、設備檢查等等是不可以少的。因為狀況不一樣，所以他需要做更多的事情。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["高組長斌：那這部分也要參考國際的經驗，然後回饋進來，再進一步……"],["張委員雅琳：而且我們在做這個安全評估，也不是我們自己說了算，還是要有國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛，對不對？"],["高組長斌：是。"],["張委員雅琳：然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題，所以對這件事情我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字，對吧？這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話，請主委一定要清楚地對整件事情完整的說明，不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了，事實上根本不是。"],["陳主任委員明真：這完全不是我們的意思。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以我的意思是說……"],["陳主任委員明真：在申請的時候我們可以把關，如果我們認為有安全疑慮，我們也可以把它駁回，並不是申請就一定會讓它通過。"],["張委員雅琳：我的意思是說並不是只有核安會自己說了算，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，還有國際同僚……"],["張委員雅琳：所以你還要跟國際，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有錯，還有國際同僚的審查。"],["張委員雅琳：是，所以你不能說只有核安會自己就做得到，其實還要跟別人一起來合作，對吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分要講清楚。然後我也要再澄清一點，其實我在5月初有去了美國，那時候我們有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以，那美國對我的回答是說目前還看不到，所以我覺得這一點要清楚的說明，請國民黨不要再一直講美國說可以，絕對沒有這件事情，這個是我有親口跟商務部確認的。","接下來我先回到中研院，請中研院。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：我想先請教一下中研院，中研院其實是臺灣最重要的一個學術研究機構，但是我們從nature index上面可以看到，在2019年我們是209名，到2024年變成341名，我想知道這是發生了什麼事情，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["周副院長美吟：我想跟委員報告一下，像這種排名的事情，世界上有很多很多種，所以我們不能單看一種，而且這些排名都是那種營利機構為主的公司排出來的，我們事後可以給委員一個比較詳細的報告，在不同的這種……"],["張委員雅琳：簡單來說，聽起來是我們在其他的排名上面還是有占據不錯的位置，是嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：這要看是採什麼樣的指標，然後看他用什麼樣的原則，還有他的解釋，這個有很多的面向。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那這個問題事後我們再約時間來討論好不好？因為這個不是我今天最主要的題目，我最主要的題目就是我其實有發現中研院在國際學術的期刊裡面發表非常大量的論文，而且都是很不錯的期刊，像Nature跟Science，我們的行星科學家葉永烜院士所發表的論文有五百多篇，其中60篇就是刊登在這種頂尖的期刊；生物學家李文雄院士則以數理方法來研究分子演化，那也都在國際期刊上面發表了很多重要的成果。同時我們也知道其實中研院一直在跟世界一些頂尖的機構做很多的交流，也有簽署一些合作的協議來推動雙方互訪，並且支持我國的這些學會加入國際的科學協會，促進臺灣學者參與全球社群，讓臺灣被看見，讓臺灣的影響力被世界所重視。但是你們今年的業務費凍結了30%，差旅費刪減了15%，那我就很想要知道，因為我仔細再看下去，你們的國外旅費大概是刪減了2,138萬，教育訓練費大概是557萬，國內旅費505萬，總計是3,200萬。所以我想要知道，這樣子到底影響了你們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行，可不可以說明一下？"],["周副院長美吟：對，這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動，看哪些可能要被減少一些。"],["張委員雅琳：那實際的影響是什麼？"],["周副院長美吟：我們請國際處的處長回答。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["孟處長子青：張委員，國際處處長報告，關於對我們最主要的影響，尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流計畫的確是有受到一些影響。"],["張委員雅琳：會不會喊卡？喊卡了嗎？"],["孟處長子青：沒有喊卡，但是我們會把經費下修，這樣子所造成的影響就是會讓我們原本要派去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法如預期的這個數目。"],["張委員雅琳：那我想再仔細地請教一下，就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去，那現在人變少了，我還是要一直強調，中研院就是臺灣的大腦，這樣到底會有什麼實質的影響，可不可以再說明清楚一點？"],["孟處長子青：最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這些學生或者是博後，本來我們會希望儘量送這一些年輕人出去，那在經費限縮的情況之下，假設我們想要在今年送10個人出去，可能現在就只能送5個人，大概這個會是比較大的影響。"],["張委員雅琳：所以等於是我們本來是想要送年輕學子去打開眼界，對不對？"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["張委員雅琳：然後透過這些國際的交流也可以串聯他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈，對不對？"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了，對不對？"],["孟處長子青：會下修，這個必須要下修。"],["張委員雅琳：會下修，就是大幅減半，剛剛聽起來是這樣子。"],["孟處長子青：可能沒有到減半，但是大概會有20%的影響。"],["張委員雅琳：有20%左右的影響，那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續產出一些更優秀的研究。"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["張委員雅琳：那我也想問一下，因為我看了整個預算分布，在生物科學門，也就是我剛剛講的李文雄院士的部分，總共是被凍結了2億5,843萬，他是一個這麼重要的學者，那這個會不會也影響到他的一些研究進度呢？是不是也可以說明一下？"],["周副院長美吟：那個應該是在生命科學的工作計畫下各所中心整體來說的，在目前凍結的狀況下，我們也跟各所中心有做一些溝通，我們希望能夠儘量減少這些後面的影響，但是對一些計畫大家心理上也會有一點趨於保守，那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，我們如果今天可以順利解凍，這件事情有沒有已經造成哪一些不可逆的影響了？因為我想還是需要說明來讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大。"],["孟處長子青：委員，我想會有不可逆影響的主要還是國外旅費，因為國外旅費是通刪15%，縱使最後解凍了，這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是沒有辦法運用，這個影響應該還是會持續。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，我了解了。其實我有看了一下，從剛剛講的聽起來，有一些研究都比較保守，然後規模可能也會縮小，我想更清楚地問一下，因為連水電費也有受影響，那一些電子儀器的部分呢？電子的儀器包括像我們的實驗室要恆溫，對不對？還有我們的一些量子電腦，在水電費已經受到影響之後，現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響，你們有統計資料嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：到目前為止我們還沒有統計資料，這些高階儀器如果沒電就無法運轉，這樣會很麻煩。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["周副院長美吟：雖然現在是凍結，但是我們儘量在這個時候還是維持讓這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷，如果受到損傷，後續就很難處理了。"],["張委員雅琳：所以聽起來是先保持了高階儀器，但是可能有一些其他的就會先犧牲了，對不對？"],["周副院長美吟：就是先拿掉。"],["張委員雅琳：因為必須調整經費，可能要等到今天解凍之後才有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應，對不對？"],["周副院長美吟：是的，高階儀器都會優先的保持住。"],["張委員雅琳：好，中研院真的也是非常辛苦。接下來我想要再請教一下有關AI基本法的問題，大家最近都在討論AI基本法，那我想要跟副院長請教一下，我們從國外看到了非常多的案例，像在2024年10月有一個有一點憂鬱、焦慮的年輕人在跟AI機器人──Character.AI聊天的時候，他傾訴了自己的這些狀況，他還表達他想要自殺，AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情，最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界。這就變成對於這些生成式AI，我們在科技發展、產業發展、倫理以及兒少保護的界線到底要劃在哪裡？我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加AI基本法的公聽會，我想要瞭解這條界線在哪裡，包含我們在修法的時候應該如何來修，我想請教中研院的意見。因為除了這件事情之外，有人被AI誤植是性騷擾犯，還有人的資歷被不實記錄在ChatGPT裡面，或是大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就做這些訓練，其實這都是一些倫理的問題，我不曉得是不是可以請處長給我們一些建議，讓我們在修這個法的時候可以儘量去兼顧？"],["周副院長美吟：請邱文聰處長，謝謝委員提這個非常重要的問題，我們請法律專家來回答。"],["邱處長文聰：委員好。針對您剛剛提到的幾個問題，因為中研院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關。"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒錯。"],["邱處長文聰：我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些想法及建議，其實最主要的問題應該是基本法本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域的規制效果，所以如您剛剛提到的一些應用，包括兒少的使用情境，或者是針對有自殺傾向的人的相關應用，其實比較難在基本法這個層次上面去規範，而需要落實到不同領域的作用法上面，把不同應用情境可能產生的風險加以定義之後，才能夠予以規制。因為每個國家對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣，比如，像歐盟AI Act雖然訂有分級，但是那是在歐洲情境下，他們對於AI使用風險的認知以及可以承受的程度，就臺灣而言，我們可能需要就臺灣自己的文化、社會價值來出發，去找到一個適當的風險分級標準，以上。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝處長，不好意思，我看到召委好像要站起來了，所以我可不可以跟你事後約個時間，我們在這一點上面來仔細地請教？"],["邱處長文聰：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我最後再講一件事情，我看到中研院也有發表相關研究，關於幫助兒童避免熱傷害，其實我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到，希望中研院針對熱傷害的預防指引，能夠有一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫，做一些初探性研究，我不曉得目前有沒有一些相關的進度，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["陳主任兼執行秘書于高：環境中心主任陳于高簡單回應一下，這件事情跟我們研究的成果有關係，因為我們是研究機關，所以我們已經把我們的東西陳報到衛福部，後續衛福部如果要採取進一步措施的時候，若還需要一些研究的成果，我們可以再繼續幫他們做一些內容。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我們待會會後聊好了，好不好？我就不占用時間了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，官員請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢，伍麗華委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}}