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\"start\": 875.821, \"end\": 875.841, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 875.841, \"end\": 876.001, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 876.001, \"end\": 876.141, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 876.141, \"end\": 876.221, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 876.221, \"end\": 876.241, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 876.241, \"end\": 876.261, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 876.261, \"end\": 876.281, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,069 --> 00:00:17,736\n在圖前舉委員質詢完畢後,我們休息8分鐘好,謝謝召委,召委辛苦了齁休息8分鐘,好來請次長,議事室今天有誰來?蛤?怎麼?\n\n2\n00:00:23,286 --> 00:00:48,715\n委員長市長早意思是為什麼是你來不是副市長來副市長有請病假請病假好不對副市長休假對不起我們是另外一個同仁休假有另外同仁受傷所以但是副市長有事請休假意思是有事請休假副市長也是\n\n3\n00:00:50,526 --> 00:00:52,688\n那副市長不用來,市長應該可以來今天這個事情\n\n4\n00:00:58,274 --> 00:01:26,269\n雖然是次長來嘛,但是真的是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員\n\n5\n00:01:26,929 --> 00:01:43,439\n我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同\n\n6\n00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:58,641\n那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統\n\n7\n00:02:00,339 --> 00:02:23,140\n那麼現在只能查詢疑似人員的職業縣市無法得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就是我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是是是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已\n\n8\n00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:47,080\n現在可以做抗拒的就是有在執政那邊這樣對啊但是你們自己有跟你們的部長跟你們的司長有說一句話醫事司林業平司長也回應現行早已握有醫事名單要不要公布都很快但應須在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的1月份1月份\n\n9\n00:02:50,670 --> 00:03:06,586\n然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講喔建設平台公布名單可嚴厲啊那市長講什麼話應需在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍\n\n10\n00:03:13,646 --> 00:03:38,262\n沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度啦就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查\n\n11\n00:03:39,062 --> 00:04:00,016\n那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們醫事室的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊\n\n12\n00:04:02,273 --> 00:04:27,524\n這不能依據嗎醫師懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會或是醫師懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的醫師公會嘛法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對判決一樣啊\n\n13\n00:04:29,964 --> 00:04:54,856\n判決一樣判決有對啊為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面\n\n14\n00:04:56,136 --> 00:05:16,907\n所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會有再委婉你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講得這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經521了這個平台沒有困難吧\n\n15\n00:05:24,189 --> 00:05:40,221\n呃一個月內可以吧一個月內跟委員報告齁我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們的報告不是給我報告不是不你要還我就早還給你的啊再跟委員報告齁就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是\n\n16\n00:05:43,851 --> 00:06:10,301\n不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦\n\n17\n00:06:11,081 --> 00:06:31,979\n而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了是接住之後還出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久\n\n18\n00:06:33,180 --> 00:06:58,223\n到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛前部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有崩潰重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居多人的名單\n\n19\n00:06:59,554 --> 00:07:23,659\n案發後凱凱死後三個月雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央中央機關次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎接受處分應該衛福部沒有\n\n20\n00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:27,262\n台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單\n\n21\n00:07:46,058 --> 00:07:59,270\n當時衛福部的回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是什麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對市長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎\n\n22\n00:08:01,336 --> 00:08:15,302\n應該這樣講齁就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或計量佔領數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成也有嘛所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對\n\n23\n00:08:15,782 --> 00:08:43,504\n他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫精進保母制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了齁7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保母計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算\n\n24\n00:08:46,566 --> 00:08:59,633\n這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先生辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單\n\n25\n00:09:01,365 --> 00:09:03,107\n所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差啦\n\n26\n00:09:19,085 --> 00:09:35,840\n對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦所以他認為他家裡還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情\n\n27\n00:09:37,059 --> 00:09:39,380\n主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟經濟事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的經濟保護制度為什麼\n\n28\n00:10:00,325 --> 00:10:10,417\n我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啦我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你的時候你不用建制名單嗎\n\n29\n00:10:15,162 --> 00:10:40,757\n我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣能夠連結起來我簡單講嘛再拐個彎回來嘛對不對特別是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛\n\n30\n00:10:43,118 --> 00:11:04,041\n我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討不需要有人負責\n\n31\n00:11:05,117 --> 00:11:23,205\n也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市\n\n32\n00:11:25,766 --> 00:11:53,901\n114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議\n\n33\n00:11:55,746 --> 00:12:05,550\n我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次\n\n34\n00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:51,802\n台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱雅案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔\n\n35\n00:12:52,723 --> 00:13:07,710\n而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?\n\n36\n00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:28,456\n還是真的你們沒有做講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛分級訪視嘛對不對沒有啊而且電影節目看這個什麼過程都不知道\n\n37\n00:13:35,257 --> 00:13:51,514\n我來澄清這不是要澄清他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔就會產生障礙一直在障礙中我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引\n\n38\n00:13:52,297 --> 00:14:13,414\n有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次對外的我覺得社長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能也不要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝睡還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清\n\n39\n00:14:13,956 --> 00:14:36,281\n然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市市府有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三市府又如何立行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1069\t17736\t在圖前舉委員質詢完畢後,我們休息8分鐘好,謝謝召委,召委辛苦了齁休息8分鐘,好來請次長,議事室今天有誰來?蛤?怎麼?\n23286\t48715\t委員長市長早意思是為什麼是你來不是副市長來副市長有請病假請病假好不對副市長休假對不起我們是另外一個同仁休假有另外同仁受傷所以但是副市長有事請休假意思是有事請休假副市長也是\n50526\t52688\t那副市長不用來,市長應該可以來今天這個事情\n58274\t86269\t雖然是次長來嘛,但是真的是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員\n86929\t103439\t我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同\n104680\t118641\t那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統\n120339\t143140\t那麼現在只能查詢疑似人員的職業縣市無法得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差 落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就是我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是 是 是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已\n143600\t167080\t現在可以做抗拒的就是有在執政那邊這樣對啊 但是你們自己有跟你們的部長跟你們的司長有說一句話醫事司林業平司長也回應現行早已握有醫事名單要不要公布都很快 但應須在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍 為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的 1月份1月份\n170670\t186586\t然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講喔建設平台公布名單可嚴厲啊那市長講什麼話應需在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍\n193646\t218262\t沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度啦就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查\n219062\t240016\t那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們醫事室的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊\n242273\t267524\t這不能依據嗎醫師懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會或是醫師懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的醫師公會嘛法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對 判決一樣啊\n269964\t294856\t判決一樣 判決有對啊 為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論 我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長 次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外 我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦 也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面\n296136\t316907\t所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會有再委婉你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講得這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經521了這個平台沒有困難吧\n324189\t340221\t呃 一個月內可以吧 一個月內 跟委員報告齁 我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們的報告 不是給我報告 不是不 你要還我就早還給你的啊再跟委員報告齁 就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是\n343851\t370301\t不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦\n371081\t391979\t而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了是接住之後還出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久\n393180\t418223\t到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢 那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛前部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有崩潰重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居多人的名單\n419554\t443659\t案發後凱凱死後三個月雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央中央機關次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎接受處分應該衛福部沒有\n444199\t447262\t台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單\n466058\t479270\t當時衛福部的回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是什麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對市長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎\n481336\t495302\t應該這樣講齁就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或計量佔領數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成也有嘛所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對\n495782\t523504\t他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫精進保母制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了齁7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保母計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算\n526566\t539633\t這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先生辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單\n541365\t543107\t所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差啦\n559085\t575840\t對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦 所以他認為他家裡還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情\n577059\t579380\t主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟經濟事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的經濟保護制度 為什麼\n600325\t610417\t我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啦我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你的時候你不用建制名單嗎\n615162\t640757\t我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣能夠連結起來我簡單講嘛再拐個彎回來嘛對不對特別是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛\n643118\t664041\t我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫 其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討 不需要有人負責\n665117\t683205\t也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市\n685766\t713901\t114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議\n715746\t725550\t我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次\n746240\t771802\t台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱雅案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔\n772723\t787710\t而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?\n788710\t808456\t還是真的你們沒有做 講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十 其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛 分級訪視嘛 對不對沒有啊 而且電影節目看這個什麼過程都不知道\n815257\t831514\t我來澄清這不是要澄清 他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市 根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔 就會產生障礙一直在障礙中我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引\n832297\t853414\t有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次對外的我覺得社長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能也不要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝睡 還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清\n853956\t876281\t然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市市府有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三市府又如何立行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"在圖前舉委員質詢完畢後,我們休息8分鐘好,謝謝召委,召委辛苦了齁休息8分鐘,好來請次長,議事室今天有誰來?蛤?怎麼?\n委員長市長早意思是為什麼是你來不是副市長來副市長有請病假請病假好不對副市長休假對不起我們是另外一個同仁休假有另外同仁受傷所以但是副市長有事請休假意思是有事請休假副市長也是\n那副市長不用來,市長應該可以來今天這個事情\n雖然是次長來嘛,但是真的是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員\n我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同\n那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統\n那麼現在只能查詢疑似人員的職業縣市無法得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差 落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就是我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是 是 是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已\n現在可以做抗拒的就是有在執政那邊這樣對啊 但是你們自己有跟你們的部長跟你們的司長有說一句話醫事司林業平司長也回應現行早已握有醫事名單要不要公布都很快 但應須在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍 為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的 1月份1月份\n然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講喔建設平台公布名單可嚴厲啊那市長講什麼話應需在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍\n沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度啦就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查\n那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們醫事室的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊\n這不能依據嗎醫師懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會或是醫師懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的醫師公會嘛法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對 判決一樣啊\n判決一樣 判決有對啊 為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論 我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長 次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外 我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦 也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面\n所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會有再委婉你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講得這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經521了這個平台沒有困難吧\n呃 一個月內可以吧 一個月內 跟委員報告齁 我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們的報告 不是給我報告 不是不 你要還我就早還給你的啊再跟委員報告齁 就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是\n不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦\n而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了是接住之後還出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久\n到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢 那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛前部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有崩潰重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居多人的名單\n案發後凱凱死後三個月雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央中央機關次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎接受處分應該衛福部沒有\n台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單\n當時衛福部的回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是什麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對市長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎\n應該這樣講齁就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或計量佔領數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成也有嘛所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對\n他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫精進保母制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了齁7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保母計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算\n這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先生辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單\n所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差啦\n對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦 所以他認為他家裡還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情\n主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟經濟事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的經濟保護制度 為什麼\n我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啦我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你的時候你不用建制名單嗎\n我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣能夠連結起來我簡單講嘛再拐個彎回來嘛對不對特別是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛\n我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫 其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討 不需要有人負責\n也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市\n114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議\n我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次\n台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱雅案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔\n而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?\n還是真的你們沒有做 講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十 其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛 分級訪視嘛 對不對沒有啊 而且電影節目看這個什麼過程都不知道\n我來澄清這不是要澄清 他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市 根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔 就會產生障礙一直在障礙中我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引\n有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次對外的我覺得社長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能也不要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝睡 還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清\n然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市市府有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三市府又如何立行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.069 --> 00:17.736\n在圖前舉委員質詢完畢後,我們休息8分鐘好,謝謝召委,召委辛苦了齁休息8分鐘,好來請次長,議事室今天有誰來?蛤?怎麼?\n\n00:23.286 --> 00:48.715\n委員長市長早意思是為什麼是你來不是副市長來副市長有請病假請病假好不對副市長休假對不起我們是另外一個同仁休假有另外同仁受傷所以但是副市長有事請休假意思是有事請休假副市長也是\n\n00:50.526 --> 00:52.688\n那副市長不用來,市長應該可以來今天這個事情\n\n00:58.274 --> 01:26.269\n雖然是次長來嘛,但是真的是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員\n\n01:26.929 --> 01:43.439\n我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同\n\n01:44.680 --> 01:58.641\n那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統\n\n02:00.339 --> 02:23.140\n那麼現在只能查詢疑似人員的職業縣市無法得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就是我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是是是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已\n\n02:23.600 --> 02:47.080\n現在可以做抗拒的就是有在執政那邊這樣對啊但是你們自己有跟你們的部長跟你們的司長有說一句話醫事司林業平司長也回應現行早已握有醫事名單要不要公布都很快但應須在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的1月份1月份\n\n02:50.670 --> 03:06.586\n然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講喔建設平台公布名單可嚴厲啊那市長講什麼話應需在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍\n\n03:13.646 --> 03:38.262\n沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度啦就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查\n\n03:39.062 --> 04:00.016\n那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們醫事室的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊\n\n04:02.273 --> 04:27.524\n這不能依據嗎醫師懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會或是醫師懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的醫師公會嘛法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對判決一樣啊\n\n04:29.964 --> 04:54.856\n判決一樣判決有對啊為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面\n\n04:56.136 --> 05:16.907\n所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會有再委婉你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講得這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經521了這個平台沒有困難吧\n\n05:24.189 --> 05:40.221\n呃一個月內可以吧一個月內跟委員報告齁我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們的報告不是給我報告不是不你要還我就早還給你的啊再跟委員報告齁就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是這是\n\n05:43.851 --> 06:10.301\n不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦\n\n06:11.081 --> 06:31.979\n而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了是接住之後還出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久\n\n06:33.180 --> 06:58.223\n到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛前部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有崩潰重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居多人的名單\n\n06:59.554 --> 07:23.659\n案發後凱凱死後三個月雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央中央機關次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎接受處分應該衛福部沒有\n\n07:24.199 --> 07:27.262\n台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單\n\n07:46.058 --> 07:59.270\n當時衛福部的回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是什麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對市長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎\n\n08:01.336 --> 08:15.302\n應該這樣講齁就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或計量佔領數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成也有嘛所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對\n\n08:15.782 --> 08:43.504\n他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫精進保母制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了齁7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保母計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算\n\n08:46.566 --> 08:59.633\n這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先生辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單\n\n09:01.365 --> 09:03.107\n所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差啦\n\n09:19.085 --> 09:35.840\n對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦所以他認為他家裡還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情\n\n09:37.059 --> 09:39.380\n主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟經濟事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的經濟保護制度為什麼\n\n10:00.325 --> 10:10.417\n我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啦我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你的時候你不用建制名單嗎\n\n10:15.162 --> 10:40.757\n我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣能夠連結起來我簡單講嘛再拐個彎回來嘛對不對特別是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛\n\n10:43.118 --> 11:04.041\n我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討不需要有人負責\n\n11:05.117 --> 11:23.205\n也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市\n\n11:25.766 --> 11:53.901\n114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議\n\n11:55.746 --> 12:05.550\n我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次\n\n12:26.240 --> 12:51.802\n台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱雅案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔\n\n12:52.723 --> 13:07.710\n而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?\n\n13:08.710 --> 13:28.456\n還是真的你們沒有做講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛分級訪視嘛對不對沒有啊而且電影節目看這個什麼過程都不知道\n\n13:35.257 --> 13:51.514\n我來澄清這不是要澄清他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔就會產生障礙一直在障礙中我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引\n\n13:52.297 --> 14:13.414\n有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次對外的我覺得社長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能也不要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝睡還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清\n\n14:13.956 --> 14:36.281\n然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市市府有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三市府又如何立行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.069,"end":17.736,"text":"在圖前舉委員質詢完畢後,我們休息8分鐘好,謝謝召委,召委辛苦了齁休息8分鐘,好來請次長,議事室今天有誰來?蛤?怎麼?"},{"start":23.286,"end":48.715,"text":"委員長市長早意思是為什麼是你來不是副市長來副市長有請病假請病假好不對副市長休假對不起我們是另外一個同仁休假有另外同仁受傷所以但是副市長有事請休假意思是有事請休假副市長也是"},{"start":50.526,"end":52.688,"text":"那副市長不用來,市長應該可以來今天這個事情"},{"start":58.274,"end":86.269,"text":"雖然是次長來嘛,但是真的是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員"},{"start":86.929,"end":103.439,"text":"我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同"},{"start":104.68,"end":118.641,"text":"那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統"},{"start":120.339,"end":143.14,"text":"那麼現在只能查詢疑似人員的職業縣市無法得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差 落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就是我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是 是 是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已"},{"start":143.6,"end":167.08,"text":"現在可以做抗拒的就是有在執政那邊這樣對啊 但是你們自己有跟你們的部長跟你們的司長有說一句話醫事司林業平司長也回應現行早已握有醫事名單要不要公布都很快 但應須在法律之下討論公布到什麼範圍 為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的 1月份1月份"},{"start":170.67,"end":186.586,"text":"然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講喔建設平台公布名單可嚴厲啊那市長講什麼話應需在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍"},{"start":193.646,"end":218.262,"text":"沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度啦就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查"},{"start":219.062,"end":240.016,"text":"那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們醫事室的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊"},{"start":242.273,"end":267.524,"text":"這不能依據嗎醫師懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會或是醫師懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的醫師公會嘛法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對 判決一樣啊"},{"start":269.964,"end":294.856,"text":"判決一樣 判決有對啊 為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論 我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長 次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外 我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦 也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面"},{"start":296.136,"end":316.907,"text":"所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會有再委婉你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講得這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經521了這個平台沒有困難吧"},{"start":324.189,"end":340.221,"text":"呃 一個月內可以吧 一個月內 跟委員報告齁 我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們的報告 不是給我報告 不是不 你要還我就早還給你的啊再跟委員報告齁 就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是"},{"start":343.851,"end":370.301,"text":"不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦"},{"start":371.081,"end":391.979,"text":"而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了是接住之後還出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久"},{"start":393.18,"end":418.223,"text":"到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢 那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛前部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有崩潰重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居多人的名單"},{"start":419.554,"end":443.659,"text":"案發後凱凱死後三個月雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央中央機關次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎接受處分應該衛福部沒有"},{"start":444.199,"end":447.262,"text":"台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單"},{"start":466.058,"end":479.27,"text":"當時衛福部的回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是什麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對市長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎"},{"start":481.336,"end":495.302,"text":"應該這樣講齁就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或計量佔領數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成也有嘛所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對"},{"start":495.782,"end":523.504,"text":"他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫精進保母制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了齁7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保母計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算"},{"start":526.566,"end":539.633,"text":"這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先生辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單"},{"start":541.365,"end":543.107,"text":"所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差啦"},{"start":559.085,"end":575.84,"text":"對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦 所以他認為他家裡還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情"},{"start":577.059,"end":579.38,"text":"主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟經濟事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的經濟保護制度 為什麼"},{"start":600.325,"end":610.417,"text":"我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啦我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你的時候你不用建制名單嗎"},{"start":615.162,"end":640.757,"text":"我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣能夠連結起來我簡單講嘛再拐個彎回來嘛對不對特別是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛"},{"start":643.118,"end":664.041,"text":"我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫 其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討 不需要有人負責"},{"start":665.117,"end":683.205,"text":"也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市"},{"start":685.766,"end":713.901,"text":"114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議"},{"start":715.746,"end":725.55,"text":"我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次"},{"start":746.24,"end":771.802,"text":"台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱雅案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔"},{"start":772.723,"end":787.71,"text":"而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?"},{"start":788.71,"end":808.456,"text":"還是真的你們沒有做 講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十 其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛 分級訪視嘛 對不對沒有啊 而且電影節目看這個什麼過程都不知道"},{"start":815.257,"end":831.514,"text":"我來澄清這不是要澄清 他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市 根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔 就會產生障礙一直在障礙中我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引"},{"start":832.297,"end":853.414,"text":"有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次對外的我覺得社長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能也不要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝睡 還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清"},{"start":853.956,"end":876.281,"text":"然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市市府有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三市府又如何立行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時34分）謝謝召委，召委辛苦了，請次長。醫事司今天有誰來？"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["劉委員建國：次長早。醫事司為什麼是你來，不是副司長來？"],["林次長靜儀：副司長請病假。"],["劉委員建國：請病假，好。"],["林次長靜儀：不對，副司長休假，對不起，我們另外一個同仁受傷，所以……"],["呂簡任技正念慈：副司長是因為有事，所以請休假。"],["劉委員建國：醫事司有事請休假？"],["呂簡任技正念慈：副司長有事。"],["劉委員建國：副司長不能來，那司長應該可以來，今天這個事情雖然是次長來……"],["林次長靜儀：沒問題，我來，可以。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果真的是次長有休假，應該司長可以來吧！不一定說次長來就一定要副司長來啊，因為副司長不能來嘛，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：我們回去了解。"],["劉委員建國：因為部長剛好去參加世衛嘛！對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：為國爭光。"],["劉委員建國：對，次長等同是部長，所以應該次長來，司長應該就可以來才對，而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：是，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：我想這樣，近期醫界紛擾很多，您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛！不只有性騷、性侵案，還有霸凌等等狀況，所以醫院的白色巨塔裡面還真的有很多改善的地方，我想次長應該可以認同。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們如果比照英國、美國，都有建置醫師公開平臺，除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態，還能查詢醫師有無處分紀錄，讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的醫師看診，所以目前醫事司的查詢系統只能查詢醫事人員的執業縣市，無法得知這個執業資格是否有效、懲處與判決的紀錄，這其實落差是很大。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，如果他有辦法在執業登記上面，就是執業紀錄有找到他現在是執業中的話，那就是他現在的執照是允許可以執業的狀態。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！但是我是說可以查到的大致上就這個樣子而已。"],["林次長靜儀：就是現在可以工作的就是有執登的那一張。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！但是你們部長及司長有說過一句話，醫事司劉越萍司長也回應：現行早已握有醫師名單，要不要公布很快，但因須在法律之下討論，公布到什麼範圍，衛福部會維護民眾就醫權益下儘快完成。這是在什麼時候講的？1月份，然後說3個月內將研議揭露平臺公布不良醫師、醫院名單，這是你們司長的回應，所以他今天沒來，次長，你怎麼有辦法代替他答復？但你們部長也是有講，建置平臺公布名單可研議，那司長講了什麼話？「因須在法律之下來討論公布到什麼範圍」，沒有法律依據嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們在法源上面必須要去確……也跟委員報告現在的幾個進度，就是說這幾個個案其實在後來修正過的性平三法，不論是醫院本身，它是依性平工作法；如果是學校附設的話，也有教育部的性別平等教育法；再來是性騷擾防治法。其實在這三個法源之下，應該都有權力要求相關當事人停職或後續的性平調查，那調查之後如果屬實，其實我們也非常期待接下來他能夠更主動地跟地方衛生局通報之後啟動醫師懲戒的行為。"],["劉委員建國：沒有、沒有，要揭露這個平臺基本上是你們醫事司司長所講的，而且會儘快，然後他講的那句話「要依據相關法律的討論之下」，現在就有了，這不能依據嗎？醫師懲戒辦法第二十二條規定，主管機關執行醫師懲戒委員會、醫師懲戒覆審委員會之懲戒決議，應將執行命令及決議書刊登公報，副本並分送其所屬醫師公會。"],["林次長靜儀：是，他如果完成懲戒。"],["劉委員建國：依法院組織法第八十三條規定，針對判決後與懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開之資訊。你還要有什麼法律的依據？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來。"],["劉委員建國：對，判決一樣啊！"],["林次長靜儀：判決一樣，判決有。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！為什麼你們建置這個平臺要這麼久？為什麼你們建置這個平臺還需要依據什麼樣的法律討論？我不曉得，然後你們1月份，包含部長、次長都講了，現在已經521了。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，其實除了醫師之外，我們也考慮到一件事情，不只是醫師，也還有其他醫事人員，散在各個法裡面，所以我們現在正在研議是不是把我們講的專技人員，就是專業職業技術人員，一旦是相關特定大家所關切的這些犯法事項，能夠有一個比較明確的作法。"],["劉委員建國：次長，我沒有在為難你，這個是你們部長跟司長，尤其司長講得這麼斬釘截鐵嘛！對不對？會儘快嘛？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["劉委員建國：那你的儘快是1月講的，到現在已經521了，這個平臺沒有困難吧？1個月內可以嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，我們1個月內給委員報告，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：不是給我們報告。"],["林次長靜儀：進度……"],["劉委員建國：不是給我們報告，不是給我報告，不是！你要法源，我就找法源給你了呀。"],["林次長靜儀：再跟委員報告，我們接下來醫事司……"],["劉委員建國：次長，這是衛福部部長還有醫事司長自己講的事情，對不對？不是我去要求吧，我是提醒，那你們就要去落實你們部長跟司長所講的。落實部長講的有道理，但是你去落實司長講的，我覺得很不好意思，所以他今天應該要來才對啊，他怎麼會沒有來？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分我會跟部長儘速來做處理。"],["劉委員建國：好啦，一個月內，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：您是說……"],["劉委員建國：這有相關的法律，你們找不到，我找給你了。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，關於全國關注的剴剴案，我想次長應該不僅有掌握，而且也憤怒、也難過嘛。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以今天我還是要針對這件事情跟你討論。我特別提到，很多人說是社會安全網出了問題，沒有啦！這個小朋友是社安網已經接住了，是接住之後還出問題，如果要討論問題的本質，應該是在這個地方。然後這件事情隔了這麼久，到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處，沒有耶！那有沒有缺失？當時我跟薛前部長在這個委員會對話，薛部長認為：新北市在處理問題上沒有放對重點；新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料；臺北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單；案發後剴剴死後3個月，雙北政府沒有任何作為。這是事實嘛。"],["林次長靜儀：薛前部長的這4個評論我們都認同。"],["劉委員建國：總結，我想不只兒福，雙北都有缺失，但是到今天為止，怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分？身為中央主管機關，次長，你怎麼看待這件事情，你能接受嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：接受處分應該不是衛福部對他們……"],["劉委員建國：所以你怎麼看待這件事情，你能接受嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：在衛福部這邊，我們能做的權責其實是去強化跟補強這中間的漏洞，讓地方主管機關有相關的……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，你不好意思回應，那我就再下一題。","臺北市為什麼不依據衛福部的處理原則，建立適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單？當時衛福部的回應是說，臺北市政府認為轄內安置的資源足夠，所以未建立保母名單，對不對？當時是這麼回應、當時是這樣，對不對？次長，請教一下，臺北市現在建立這個名單了嗎？"],["張副署長美美：應該這樣講，各縣市政府會運用保母當成安置資源，大部分是這些縣市的安置機構數量或寄養家庭數量不夠，那臺北市沒有用保母來當成安置……"],["劉委員建國：沒有嘛？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以它到現在還沒有建置，對不對？"],["張副署長美美：它認為它不需要。"],["劉委員建國：對，它不需要嘛。"],["張副署長美美：對，因為它的寄養家庭跟兒少安置機構……"],["劉委員建國：所以之前不需要、現在也不需要，對不對？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是你再看一下，雖然臺北市到現在沒有建立這個名單，但去年剴剴案發生之後，北市府馬上推動「七加一」守護計畫、精進保母制度，內容怎麼樣？大致上講其中一項就好了，「七加一」改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推薦優質保母計畫，這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎？算不算？這樣算不算？"],["張副署長美美：它這個是優質的保母，不見得是安置的資源……"],["劉委員建國：其中有一項是新增辦理家長推薦優質保母計畫，下面這一個，你不要看大標、你看下標，算不算在建立一個名單？"],["張副署長美美：應該這樣講，這個是一般家長的孩子都會收托的部分，它其實應該是告訴一般家長哪些保母是比較優質的，那跟我們所謂的一些孩子沒有辦法在家庭成長而放到保母家做安置是不一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：所以你意思是，程度上還是有些落差？"],["張副署長美美：是。"],["林次長靜儀：對於脆家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童，在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，它認為轄內還有很多的安置資源，所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示辦理居家托育保母建置名單，那為什麼還要再做這個事情？"],["張副署長美美：應該這樣講，我們……"],["劉委員建國：你又要再替他說，好，你說、你說，來，我聽你說，你這麼會說，讓你說！"],["林次長靜儀：就是剛剛我們講的，尤其是剴剴案的檢討跟精進，事實上我們希望針對尤其是脆弱家庭……"],["劉委員建國：我是說它在拐一個彎，如果它不需要、它說它的安置資源足夠，它為什麼還在推動這個「七加一」守護計畫的精進保母制度？"],["林次長靜儀：我懂委員的意思，這是邏輯的問題。"],["劉委員建國：然後先辦理家長推薦優質保母計畫，如果家長推薦保母計畫，你不用建置名單嗎？不然我推薦去哪裡，難道我推薦給中央、我推薦給你嗎？我推薦給你之後，你不用建置名單嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：事實上，家長推薦優質保母計畫並不夠達到我們所要求的，尤其是對於脆家或者是相關的督導，或者是在這個過程中去把中間的環環相扣連結起來……"],["劉委員建國：我簡單講，再拐個彎回來，對不對？臺北市現在做這個事情，它做這個事情之後，還會像之前就丟給兒福聯盟自己去隨便找一找嗎？不可能，就會依照這樣來做處理，應該是這樣。"],["林次長靜儀：我們其實希望它在整個制度內部能夠檢討，然後不要有遺漏。"],["劉委員建國：所以我才會講說，如果臺北市真的認為它們有這個缺失，為什麼要這個精進計畫？其一。其二，同樣地，要在兒福聯盟隨便找一個保母安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討、不需要有人負責？"],["林次長靜儀：也跟委員報告，尤其是在脆弱家庭或者是特殊處遇兒童的部分，在保母的挑選上面可能跟一般的家長推薦優質保母是不同的。"],["劉委員建國：我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有相關單位了解。不只這樣，次長，你再看一下，臺北市114年5月13號的新聞稿表示，臺北市長去年宣布「七加一」改革守護計畫，每一項都確實推動落實且114年度持續精進辦理，包含保母訓練強化並增加回流訓練（113年底辦理10場次）、無依兒童增加出養前訪視頻率、三方共訪機制、全日托一年六訪。下面紅字請次長再看一下，目前中央尚未將一年六訪、三方共訪入法或決議。你們糟糕了，你們都沒在做事情，你們到現在還不入法，發生這麼久了，你們還不決議！"],["林次長靜儀：我們去年……有啦……報告委員，謝謝委員給我們機會澄清，我們去年4月30號跟5月1號都有實施相關的工作指引，這個指引裡面我們也強調，居家托育要有分級的訪視跟輔導，而且以不預約制度、安排不同的時段訪視，而且針對特殊需求孩童的訪視次數應該增加，而且是至少6次！"],["劉委員建國：臺北市政府說沒有啊、沒有入法、沒有決議！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員讓我們有機會說。"],["劉委員建國：你們相關單位都沒有在掌握，剴剴案造成全國這麼大的關注，讓人這麼憤慨！然後他們發這個新聞稿說，你們到現在都還沒有將六訪、三方共訪入法或決議，決議喔，你們都沒有做！"],["林次長靜儀：我們去年就有……"],["劉委員建國：而且是5月13號發布的新聞，你們有處理嗎？你們有因應嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：一年前……"],["劉委員建國：誰處理、誰因應嘛？"],["林次長靜儀：一年前我們就給了指引，這個部分如果這樣的話，是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明？"],["劉委員建國：所以這個你覺得是臺北市故意為之還是你們真的沒有做？講清楚啊！"],["林次長靜儀：再跟委員報告，我們去年4月跟5月都有特別針對這樣的個案做居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引，有明確地給。"],["劉委員建國：去年4月30日其實你們就已經有函文「直轄市、縣（市）政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引」，在第五點裡面講得很明確，是分級訪視，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼地方政府發這個新聞稿你們都不知道？"],["林次長靜儀：他們發這樣，我來澄清，我再來說明一次。"],["劉委員建國：這不是只要澄清而已，它是故意的？還是還有其他縣市真的根本不曉得？還是你們上令沒辦法下達就會產生障礙，一直在障礙中？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，我們這個函頒之後，全臺灣的各縣市政府就都會收到我們的這個指引。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，有人收到的話，為什麼發這種新聞稿？發了這個新聞稿，為什麼你們都不因應、你們都不回應？"],["林次長靜儀：好，我們再來做一次對外的說明。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得次長你趁部長現在不在，你可能內部要整頓一下，是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的，還是要裝睡、還是裝瞎，不然為什麼這種事情會發生？"],["林次長靜儀：好，我們會積極地再做一次澄清。"],["劉委員建國：然後我在這邊具體三個要求，剛剛那個要求是一個月，請衛福部一個月內要建置完成醫師資訊揭露平臺。另外，一個月內針對整個家外安置訪視狀況實施一年後進行總檢討，包含：第一，了解各縣市是否有落實一年六訪；第二，縣市間的訪視量能夠不夠；第三，是否又淪為例行公事，而且無法在第一時間發現狀況，尤其新北市。可以吧？"],["林次長靜儀：好，我們來推動，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：謝謝劉建國委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}