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00:01:01,205\n就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛\n\n4\n00:01:01,645 --> 00:01:15,403\n但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛\n\n5\n00:01:17,761 --> 00:01:45,020\n對當時是這樣但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧\n\n6\n00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,746\n都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些\n\n7\n00:02:07,463 --> 00:02:14,768\n我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以\n\n8\n00:02:24,754 --> 00:02:41,816\n過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律\n\n9\n00:02:43,117 --> 00:03:07,492\n國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了\n\n10\n00:03:09,033 --> 00:03:27,496\n那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書\n\n11\n00:03:28,778 --> 00:03:39,188\n當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書\n\n12\n00:03:41,499 --> 00:04:09,633\n對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件\n\n13\n00:04:10,633 --> 00:04:26,982\n機密絕對機密那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統\n\n14\n00:04:28,823 --> 00:04:54,348\n他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密\n\n15\n00:04:55,228 --> 00:05:15,775\n跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制\n\n16\n00:05:17,366 --> 00:05:43,203\n管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制\n\n17\n00:05:44,464 --> 00:06:09,737\n因為這部分要有一個法律的依據目前可能還有不是不是法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以我說在民主的運作OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的\n\n18\n00:06:12,561 --> 00:06:33,800\n這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁\n\n19\n00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:57,788\n沒有這兩個部分喔一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露轉述的違法法律他沒有豁免啦\n\n20\n00:07:00,709 --> 00:07:05,342\n法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦\n\n21\n00:07:08,226 --> 00:07:33,528\n你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密\n\n22\n00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:55,607\n我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制\n\n23\n00:07:56,243 --> 00:08:21,424\n沒有管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白\n\n24\n00:08:21,804 --> 00:08:36,103\n這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國\n\n25\n00:08:36,704 --> 00:09:04,164\n我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛\n\n26\n00:09:04,864 --> 00:09:20,844\n史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨\n\n27\n00:09:21,705 --> 00:09:40,762\n對這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有我不只在意這個定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛\n\n28\n00:09:45,005 --> 00:10:08,392\n參與不分區的分配領取政黨補助金我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說我會黨啊對不對台灣有很多政黨啊有賭博最大黨什麼亂七八糟很多什麼有的有沒有的我的意思是說對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來是指在國會有席次這是一種定義\n\n29\n00:10:09,452 --> 00:10:38,661\n或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛\n\n30\n00:10:39,796 --> 00:10:51,633\n大概就這兩個方向你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的\n\n31\n00:10:53,715 --> 00:11:11,021\n我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報\n\n32\n00:11:14,574 --> 00:11:36,028\n對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮\n\n33\n00:11:36,688 --> 00:11:57,130\n跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是\n\n34\n00:11:58,271 --> 00:12:25,203\n國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我\n\n35\n00:12:26,023 --> 00:12:45,720\n這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講\n\n36\n00:12:46,801 --> 00:13:07,076\n相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛\n\n37\n00:13:09,861 --> 00:13:28,563\n你不能替他宣布嘛那什麼時候會宣布府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場我認為國家是大家的我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候我個人是贊成情報共享建立制度\n\n38\n00:13:29,324 --> 00:13:49,018\n那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變\n\n39\n00:13:51,139 --> 00:14:07,084\n給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的\n\n40\n00:14:08,344 --> 00:14:25,434\n這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n632\t1335\t謝謝主席 麻煩局長請蔡局長\n8044\t29516\t好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說\n31363\t61205\t就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛\n61645\t75403\t但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛\n77761\t105020\t對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧\n105720\t110746\t都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些\n127463\t134768\t我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以\n144754\t161816\t過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律\n163117\t187492\t國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了\n189033\t207496\t那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書\n208778\t219188\t當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書\n221499\t249633\t對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件\n250633\t266982\t機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律 我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統\n268823\t294348\t他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密\n295228\t315775\t跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制\n317366\t343203\t管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制\n344464\t369737\t因為這部分要有一個法律的依據 目前可能還有不是不是 法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密 法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇 他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以 我說在民主的運作 OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的\n372561\t393800\t這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁\n394440\t417788\t沒有 這兩個部分喔 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露 轉述的違法 法律他沒有豁免啦\n420709\t425342\t法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦\n428226\t453528\t你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密\n455356\t475607\t我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制\n476243\t501424\t沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白\n501804\t516103\t這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國\n516704\t544164\t我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛\n544864\t560844\t史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨\n561705\t580762\t對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛\n585005\t608392\t參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義\n609452\t638661\t或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對 跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對 我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛\n639796\t651633\t大概就這兩個方向 你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布 那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的\n653715\t671021\t我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報\n674574\t696028\t對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮\n696688\t717130\t跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是\n718271\t745203\t國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我\n746023\t765720\t這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講\n766801\t787076\t相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛\n789861\t808563\t你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度\n809324\t829018\t那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變\n831139\t847084\t給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的\n848344\t865434\t這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩局長請蔡局長\n好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說\n就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛\n但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛\n對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧\n都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些\n我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以\n過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律\n國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了\n那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書\n當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書\n對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件\n機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律 我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統\n他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密\n跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制\n管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制\n因為這部分要有一個法律的依據 目前可能還有不是不是 法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密 法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇 他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以 我說在民主的運作 OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的\n這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁\n沒有 這兩個部分喔 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露 轉述的違法 法律他沒有豁免啦\n法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦\n你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密\n我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制\n沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白\n這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國\n我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛\n史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨\n對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛\n參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義\n或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對 跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對 我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛\n大概就這兩個方向 你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布 那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的\n我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報\n對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮\n跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是\n國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我\n這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講\n相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛\n你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度\n那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變\n給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的\n這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.632 --> 00:01.335\n謝謝主席麻煩局長請蔡局長\n\n00:08.044 --> 00:29.516\n好謝謝主席萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說\n\n00:31.363 --> 01:01.205\n就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛\n\n01:01.645 --> 01:15.403\n但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛\n\n01:17.761 --> 01:45.020\n對當時是這樣但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧\n\n01:45.720 --> 01:50.746\n都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些\n\n02:07.463 --> 02:14.768\n我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以\n\n02:24.754 --> 02:41.816\n過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律\n\n02:43.117 --> 03:07.492\n國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了\n\n03:09.033 --> 03:27.496\n那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書\n\n03:28.778 --> 03:39.188\n當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書\n\n03:41.499 --> 04:09.633\n對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件\n\n04:10.633 --> 04:26.982\n機密絕對機密那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統\n\n04:28.823 --> 04:54.348\n他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密\n\n04:55.228 --> 05:15.775\n跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制\n\n05:17.366 --> 05:43.203\n管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制\n\n05:44.464 --> 06:09.737\n因為這部分要有一個法律的依據目前可能還有不是不是法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以我說在民主的運作OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的\n\n06:12.561 --> 06:33.800\n這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁\n\n06:34.440 --> 06:57.788\n沒有這兩個部分喔一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露轉述的違法法律他沒有豁免啦\n\n07:00.709 --> 07:05.342\n法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦\n\n07:08.226 --> 07:33.528\n你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密\n\n07:35.356 --> 07:55.607\n我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制\n\n07:56.243 --> 08:21.424\n沒有管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白\n\n08:21.804 --> 08:36.103\n這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國\n\n08:36.704 --> 09:04.164\n我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛\n\n09:04.864 --> 09:20.844\n史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨\n\n09:21.705 --> 09:40.762\n對這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有我不只在意這個定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛\n\n09:45.005 --> 10:08.392\n參與不分區的分配領取政黨補助金我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說我會黨啊對不對台灣有很多政黨啊有賭博最大黨什麼亂七八糟很多什麼有的有沒有的我的意思是說對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來是指在國會有席次這是一種定義\n\n10:09.452 --> 10:38.661\n或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛\n\n10:39.796 --> 10:51.633\n大概就這兩個方向你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的\n\n10:53.715 --> 11:11.021\n我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報\n\n11:14.574 --> 11:36.028\n對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮\n\n11:36.688 --> 11:57.130\n跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是\n\n11:58.271 --> 12:25.203\n國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我\n\n12:26.023 --> 12:45.720\n這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講\n\n12:46.801 --> 13:07.076\n相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛\n\n13:09.861 --> 13:28.563\n你不能替他宣布嘛那什麼時候會宣布府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場我認為國家是大家的我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候我個人是贊成情報共享建立制度\n\n13:29.324 --> 13:49.018\n那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變\n\n13:51.139 --> 14:07.084\n給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的\n\n14:08.344 --> 14:25.434\n這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.632,"end":1.335,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8.044,"end":29.516,"text":"好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說"},{"start":31.363,"end":61.205,"text":"就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛"},{"start":61.645,"end":75.403,"text":"但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛"},{"start":77.761,"end":105.02,"text":"對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧"},{"start":105.72,"end":110.746,"text":"都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些"},{"start":127.463,"end":134.768,"text":"我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以"},{"start":144.754,"end":161.816,"text":"過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律"},{"start":163.117,"end":187.492,"text":"國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了"},{"start":189.033,"end":207.496,"text":"那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書"},{"start":208.778,"end":219.188,"text":"當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書"},{"start":221.499,"end":249.633,"text":"對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件"},{"start":250.633,"end":266.982,"text":"機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律 我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統"},{"start":268.823,"end":294.348,"text":"他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密"},{"start":295.228,"end":315.775,"text":"跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制"},{"start":317.366,"end":343.203,"text":"管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制"},{"start":344.464,"end":369.737,"text":"因為這部分要有一個法律的依據 目前可能還有不是不是 法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密 法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇 他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以 我說在民主的運作 OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的"},{"start":372.561,"end":393.8,"text":"這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁"},{"start":394.44,"end":417.788,"text":"沒有 這兩個部分喔 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露 轉述的違法 法律他沒有豁免啦"},{"start":420.709,"end":425.342,"text":"法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦"},{"start":428.226,"end":453.528,"text":"你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密"},{"start":455.356,"end":475.607,"text":"我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制"},{"start":476.243,"end":501.424,"text":"沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白"},{"start":501.804,"end":516.103,"text":"這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國"},{"start":516.704,"end":544.164,"text":"我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛"},{"start":544.864,"end":560.844,"text":"史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨"},{"start":561.705,"end":580.762,"text":"對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":585.005,"end":608.392,"text":"參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義"},{"start":609.452,"end":638.661,"text":"或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對 跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對 我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛"},{"start":639.796,"end":651.633,"text":"大概就這兩個方向 你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布 那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的"},{"start":653.715,"end":671.021,"text":"我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報"},{"start":674.574,"end":696.028,"text":"對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮"},{"start":696.688,"end":717.13,"text":"跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是"},{"start":718.271,"end":745.203,"text":"國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我"},{"start":746.023,"end":765.72,"text":"這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講"},{"start":766.801,"end":787.076,"text":"相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛"},{"start":789.861,"end":808.563,"text":"你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度"},{"start":809.324,"end":829.018,"text":"那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變"},{"start":831.139,"end":847.084,"text":"給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的"},{"start":848.344,"end":865.434,"text":"這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長，辛苦了。我先就國安簡報這件事情請教你們國安局，當然，這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務，裡面要報告的內容，不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的蒐集，我想你們業務上應該有相關。我第一個請教的是，就過去的案例來講，有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第10任陳水扁總統開始，當時他是以美國有類似的制度……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：他是參考美國的制度，對於總統候選人，因為他們可能即將成為國家元首，不管是開的政見、甚至於維安保護也提升到總統規格，所以僅限總統候選人，在我的印象中，那時候副總統候選人也沒有嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來。"],["王委員定宇：對，我們邀請的對象……第10屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人進行所謂國安情勢的簡報，沒有錯嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當時是這樣，但是我們去年在執行的過程當中，有的候選人是有帶副總統候選人過來的。"],["王委員定宇：對，後續我們就變成建立起來一個慣例，就是成為總統、副總統候選人之後，在總統競選期間，會邀請候選人的團隊、總統及副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報，對國家的方向有一個瞭解，我認為這個是不分黨派，是為了穩定該做的，所以馬政府的時候也有做吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有。"],["王委員定宇：都有做嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：歷來都有。"],["王委員定宇：所以以往的慣例是這個。根據的法律依據是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這個部分，我知道委員比較關切的重點是，簡報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦……"],["王委員定宇：該怎麼管理。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，大概知道是這樣。"],["王委員定宇：我看到國家機密保護法第十四條規定「……上級機關有核定權責人員以書面授權或核准者為限」。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統、副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報，簡報內容應該有牽涉機密，所以過去總統、副總統候選人在執行的時候，是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個簡報？"],["蔡局長明彥：就我們國安局負責的部分，是針對總統、副總統候選人的簡報設計，也是依照相關的法律，必須要由我本人批核。"],["王委員定宇：什麼法律？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家機密保護法，或是我們相關的揭密作業原則，由我本人來確定簡報的內容，要核密。"],["王委員定宇：等於是核密的這個單位是針對特定對象予以解密，聽取機密的人員，他原來沒有這個機密等級，因為核密單位可能是總統、可能是國安局長，因為核密單位予以解密，所以他就可以來聽取這個機密了，那接下來涉密內容的保護以及人員管制，你們怎麼處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一般在核密之後，在簡報過程當中，一開始就會提醒聽取簡報的人要注意，接下來聽到的簡報內容有涉密，也提醒他們相關的涉密內容在會外……"],["王委員定宇：他們要不要簽切結書？"],["蔡局長明彥：我記得當時並沒有特別簽切結書，但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒。"],["王委員定宇：我知道，會宣示嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們在外交及國防委員會，立委進來要聽取機密，我們要簽一張切結書。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：切結書的根據來源也是國家機密保護法。"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明，當時總統候選人的簡報，我們當時核密的等級是密等，一般公務的密等……"],["王委員定宇：沒有到絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有到絕對機密、極機密……"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以內容是到密……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，到密而已。"],["王委員定宇：沒有到極機密跟絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，在我們的作業，當時沒有涉及到國家等級的機密。"],["王委員定宇：未來會不會牽涉到這個？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要看到時候的內容……"],["王委員定宇：坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：就是普通件、機密、絕對機密跟極機密，所以以往的作業是到密，但那還是機密嘛，我的意思是，根據法律而告訴他這些內容，我覺得這是一個民主社會的特殊狀態，我可以接受，也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統、副總統，他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣，我們都是老百姓，每個人都一樣，但因為他即將要選總統，而且登記成為候選人……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是正式登記之後。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護，因為他是候選人，不管他會不會當選，我都要假設他會當選，所以縱使他是一般平民百姓，沒有揭密的等級，我還是要對他揭露，這點是保密跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點，可是我現在要請教你的就是，經由核密單位，解除機密並對他揭露了，哪怕只是密等，他也有保密的義務及權利嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會進行告知。"],["王委員定宇：你剛才講以往是沒有簽切結書，但是有告知他法律的責任，接下來他要不要接受管制？"],["蔡局長明彥：管制的部分，委員指的是出境還是指的是……"],["王委員定宇：根據這個機密，如果是某甲接觸到公務人員，他要接受什麼管制？現在只是因為他成為總統候選人而看到了，需不需要接受一樣的管制？好像沒有喔？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般沒有，跟委員說明一下，假如委員談的是出境管制的話，目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員出境要受到管制。"],["王委員定宇：他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制，根據什麼法律？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分要有法律的依據，目前可能還沒有……"],["王委員定宇：不是、不是，法律的依據是要管制，我摸到這個機密，法律的依據是要管制，不能因為他的地位尊崇、他選過總統，但沒選上就是一般老百姓。我說這是民主的運作，OK、可以，但我現在為什麼一直要跟你研究這一塊？因為接下來是政黨領袖，其實對一般人來講，他就是尋常百姓，因為民主活動的狀態，我尊重你代表的是主要政黨，我尊重你是總統、副總統候選人，我可以接受，但一旦核密單位對他揭露機密了，他碰到了、他看到了、他知道了，對於機密的保護、對機密的管制、人員的管制應該要有一套作法，因為那沒有禮遇也沒有豁免，可是過去好像就豁免了？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這分為兩個部分：一個是我剛剛跟委員說明的，是出境管制的部分，依照機保法或兩岸人民關係條例，涉密的公務員是被管制的，委員剛剛所提到的，這個類型，一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治地位而來聽的話，這部分並沒有出境管制，但是他在我們提醒告知了這是一般涉密的內容，他假如有揭露……"],["王委員定宇：揭露還是違法啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他是違法的。"],["王委員定宇：法律沒有豁免這部分嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分沒有。"],["王委員定宇：法律沒有豁免，但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免，有啦，你們沒有管制。"],["蔡局長明彥：就是沒有法律的依據做確實的管制。"],["王委員定宇：好，我們現在就進到現在的主題，賴清德總統指示國安團隊，你在裡面嘛，賴總統指示國安團隊向在野黨的主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，一樣只到密嗎？不會到極機密或絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：到時候要看各部會提報的內容是什麼。"],["王委員定宇：不一定。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要看內容。"],["王委員定宇：因為不一定，一旦他碰到絕對機密、一旦他碰到極機密，我可以接受在民主的運作當中，對於總統、副總統候選人、對於主要在野黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密，這是民主社會的常態，但民主社會還有另外一個常態，就是法律的規範應該一視同仁，他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權。請問接下來要不要對他們進行相關的管制？"],["蔡局長明彥：管制的部分，我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據，才有辦法進行相關出入境的管制。"],["王委員定宇：他接觸機密、絕對機密或極機密，他接觸了嘛，針對這樣的機密，我們本來就有一些管制作為。"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊，他假如違反我們的管制的話，那就違法了，但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話，目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他的出入境。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在這一塊是空白？"],["蔡局長明彥：這一塊沒有法律依據。"],["王委員定宇：所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去？"],["蔡局長明彥：但是違法的話，一來我們可以透過新法的……"],["王委員定宇：我現在只是要把狀態弄清楚，我弄清楚，也避免在野黨的主席聽完機密兩、三年都不能出國，我們要把它弄清楚。我現在是詢問的角度，因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的，像總統、副總統候選人，經過陳水扁總統、馬英九總統，這就變成一個慣例，就算沒有法制化，也變成一個慣例，反而以後哪一任總統不對總統、副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話，他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做，這就是慣例，在法律上這是有一定的意義；可是現在是在野黨主席，這是第一次、史上首次嘛，所以我們就要請教了，所謂向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，你怎麼去define、定義在野黨主席？我們在野黨很多，是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分可能要由府方做相關的規劃跟安排。"],["王委員定宇：所以定義還沒有出來？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員一直在意跟關切的在於聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，我不只在意這個，定義很重要，因為我不是講一般那種完全沒有選舉的政黨，在政黨補助裡面有規定，拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣、3%的選票會怎麼樣、5%的選票會怎麼樣，參與不分區的分配、領取政黨補助金，都有那個門檻。所以任何一個在野黨主席都會認為他可以啊，對不對？臺灣很多政黨，有賭博最大黨等等什麼亂七八糟的，很多有的沒有的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我知道。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說，對在野黨的主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，那個定義要出來，是指在國會有席次，這是一種定義，或者是有領取我們國家的一票50塊錢政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席，這個要想清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：那我們現在走的是哪個方向？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員報告一下，這個部分我們在內部會議有討論，但是對外的發布，我覺得要尊重府方。"],["王委員定宇：你沒有權力發布？"],["蔡局長明彥：由府方對外整體說明。"],["王委員定宇：所以大概就是這兩種方向嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：已經有討論了。"],["王委員定宇：這兩種方向嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：由府方對外說明。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才講就大概這兩大方向，一種是有國會席次的，一種是有領取政黨補助的，就大概這兩種方向，你不會有第三個方向啊，或者有議員席次的也可以。"],["蔡局長明彥：這由府方來發布，至於委員的一些研判我尊重。"],["王委員定宇：因為這是國安情勢的……一個三軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報，一定有重要的事情，這重要的事情誰應該參與，應該要以對國家有益的角度來看嘛，因為這是例外狀況，未來可能變常態，所以例外狀況的第一次就很重要，到底是對誰簡報？以中央全國層次來講，領取政黨補助金，這是一個門檻，就是說他其實在全國性有達到一定民意支持度的，或者是國會有席次，這是兩個，如果以民意代表有席次，有的有一席議員，或者全國有兩席議員，那個部分要不要放進去？這個我尊重你們的判斷，但應該是這樣的思路方向在考慮。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，跟委員說明一下，委員剛剛關切的問題，在內部會議我們都已經有討論，正式對外的發布跟說明，由府方來說明。剛剛我跟委員在討論、意見交流的過程當中，我是在分享國安局過去的作法，不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制，我們一般在經驗上、實務上的一個理解。"],["王委員定宇：好。其實我最後要問的問題是，國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的作法未來要不要法制化？還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況，尊重元首依照局勢的判斷？是法制化，比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下，他可以來進行國安簡報，簡報之後，他需負擔什麼樣的法律責任，是保密的法律責任或是要接受人員管制？這是法制化；另外一種就是，這是國家元首的特權（privilege），由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露，而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容。你們有什麼樣的建議？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想基本上是這樣，要不要啟動這樣的機制，應該要尊重國家元首──總統的權責，這是一個政治決定；第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中，以國安局來講，相關的一些法制面、規範面要注意的事情，我們會提供，在內部會議討論的時候做一些意見的交換跟決定，再一起由府方對外公布。"],["王委員定宇：那你認為該不該法制化？你沒有告訴我答案。"],["蔡局長明彥：內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有法制化的打算？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有討論，剛剛委員提到的問題大概都有稍微注意。"],["王委員定宇：都有討論嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，都有討論。"],["王委員定宇：也應該有結論嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，但我沒有辦法公開轉述秘密的……"],["王委員定宇：你不能替他宣布，什麼時候會宣布？"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重府方相關的……"],["王委員定宇：府方會適時揭露？"],["蔡局長明彥：會。"],["王委員定宇：我先講本席的立場，我認為國家是大家的，我們政黨黨派的立場也許不一樣，但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候，我個人是贊成情報共享建立制度。在沒有制度下依循往例，基於國家機密、國家利益，該保護的保護，該負責的負責，該負法律責任的負法律責任，該管制的管制，這個部分如果未有明確之規範，透過慣例的建立是一種；第二種，透過法制化也是一種。因為局勢常常瞬息萬變，這是總統的專屬權力，讓總統依特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報，我也可以接受，但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚，否則現任元首謹守分際，你如果遇到一個元首不謹守分際，找他自己的朋友一起來分享的時候，那該怎麼辦？你懂我的意思嗎？這個事情是國家的首例，我覺得可以讓它往正向發展，所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論往例，我們希望儘速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為。謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，尊重委員的意見，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":42,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-16","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","林憶君","陳培瑜","陳永康"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案","agenda_id":"1145201_00001"}}}