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{\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 814.958, \"end\": 814.978, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 814.978, \"end\": 814.998, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 814.998, \"end\": 815.018, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 815.018, \"end\": 815.118, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 815.118, \"end\": 815.138, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 815.138, \"end\": 815.158, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 815.158, \"end\": 815.178, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 815.178, \"end\": 815.238, \"score\": 0.401}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 815.238, \"end\": 815.258, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 815.258, \"end\": 815.398, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 815.398, \"end\": 815.418, 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883.575, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 883.575, \"end\": 883.755, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 883.755, \"end\": 883.896, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 883.896, \"end\": 884.016, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 884.016, \"end\": 884.156, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"赴\", \"start\": 884.156, \"end\": 884.616, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 884.616, \"end\": 884.636, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,158 --> 00:00:07,421\n好謝謝主席我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳\n\n2\n00:00:27,322 --> 00:00:56,038\n那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序\n\n3\n00:00:56,718 --> 00:01:00,499\n那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己\n\n4\n00:01:24,384 --> 00:01:27,449\n不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛\n\n5\n00:01:40,108 --> 00:01:53,573\n對我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點\n\n6\n00:01:56,494 --> 00:02:04,076\n不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益\n\n7\n00:02:21,365 --> 00:02:46,194\n是謝謝委員我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化對血緣的選擇我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統\n\n8\n00:02:47,614 --> 00:03:12,579\n那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的\n\n9\n00:03:17,182 --> 00:03:29,825\n表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的\n\n10\n00:03:47,969 --> 00:04:10,805\n我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在\n\n11\n00:04:11,925 --> 00:04:36,066\n因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願\n\n12\n00:04:39,389 --> 00:05:01,906\n因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相\n\n13\n00:05:02,566 --> 00:05:31,223\n那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在\n\n14\n00:05:31,823 --> 00:05:32,964\n那我不得再轉發這些事情了\n\n15\n00:06:01,943 --> 00:06:05,225\n入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委\n\n16\n00:06:24,033 --> 00:06:40,933\n他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議\n\n17\n00:06:43,496 --> 00:06:56,905\n可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節\n\n18\n00:06:58,647 --> 00:07:18,346\n更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰\n\n19\n00:07:19,468 --> 00:07:38,459\n好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個\n\n20\n00:07:39,059 --> 00:07:48,786\n那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎\n\n21\n00:07:51,736 --> 00:08:17,050\n是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有\n\n22\n00:08:21,272 --> 00:08:48,262\n新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了\n\n23\n00:08:49,002 --> 00:09:07,073\n你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇\n\n24\n00:09:10,351 --> 00:09:27,579\n跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加\n\n25\n00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:43,142\n就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們\n\n26\n00:09:44,224 --> 00:10:12,656\n提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待\n\n27\n00:10:14,016 --> 00:10:36,715\n進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定\n\n28\n00:10:38,016 --> 00:11:05,748\n希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去\n\n29\n00:11:07,489 --> 00:11:25,616\n這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代\n\n30\n00:11:30,038 --> 00:11:36,145\n包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表\n\n31\n00:11:45,276 --> 00:12:09,901\n像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露\n\n32\n00:12:10,501 --> 00:12:36,557\n那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊\n\n33\n00:12:37,518 --> 00:12:50,434\n那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁\n\n34\n00:12:51,783 --> 00:12:55,546\n這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與\n\n35\n00:13:19,082 --> 00:13:35,619\n那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團\n\n36\n00:13:42,245 --> 00:14:02,318\n我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理\n\n37\n00:14:03,398 --> 00:14:26,776\n好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面\n\n38\n00:14:27,697 --> 00:14:44,636\n協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4158\t7421\t好 謝謝主席 我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好 首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳\n27322\t56038\t那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序\n56718\t60499\t那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己\n84384\t87449\t不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛\n100108\t113573\t對 我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點\n116494\t124076\t不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益\n141365\t166194\t是 謝謝委員 我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化 對血緣的選擇 我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國 矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統\n167614\t192579\t那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的\n197182\t209825\t表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的\n227969\t250805\t我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在\n251925\t276066\t因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願\n279389\t301906\t因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相\n302566\t331223\t那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在\n331823\t332964\t那我不得再轉發這些事情了\n361943\t365225\t入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委\n384033\t400933\t他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議\n403496\t416905\t可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節\n418647\t438346\t更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰\n439468\t458459\t好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個\n459059\t468786\t那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎\n471736\t497050\t是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有\n501272\t528262\t新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了\n529002\t547073\t你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇\n550351\t567579\t跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加\n568960\t583142\t就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們\n584224\t612656\t提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待\n614016\t636715\t進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定\n638016\t665748\t希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去\n667489\t685616\t這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代\n690038\t696145\t包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表\n705276\t729901\t像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露\n730501\t756557\t那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊\n757518\t770434\t那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁\n771783\t775546\t這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與\n799082\t815619\t那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團\n822245\t842318\t我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理\n843398\t866776\t好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面\n867697\t884636\t協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好 首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳\n那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序\n那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己\n不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛\n對 我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點\n不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益\n是 謝謝委員 我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化 對血緣的選擇 我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國 矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統\n那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的\n表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的\n我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在\n因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願\n因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相\n那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在\n那我不得再轉發這些事情了\n入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委\n他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議\n可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節\n更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰\n好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個\n那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎\n是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有\n新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了\n你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇\n跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加\n就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們\n提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待\n進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定\n希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去\n這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代\n包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表\n像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露\n那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊\n那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁\n這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與\n那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團\n我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理\n好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面\n協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.158 --> 00:07.421\n好謝謝主席我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳\n\n00:27.322 --> 00:56.038\n那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序\n\n00:56.718 --> 01:00.499\n那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己\n\n01:24.384 --> 01:27.449\n不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛\n\n01:40.108 --> 01:53.573\n對我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點\n\n01:56.494 --> 02:04.076\n不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益\n\n02:21.365 --> 02:46.194\n是謝謝委員我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化對血緣的選擇我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統\n\n02:47.614 --> 03:12.579\n那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的\n\n03:17.182 --> 03:29.825\n表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的\n\n03:47.969 --> 04:10.805\n我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在\n\n04:11.925 --> 04:36.066\n因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願\n\n04:39.389 --> 05:01.906\n因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相\n\n05:02.566 --> 05:31.223\n那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在\n\n05:31.823 --> 05:32.964\n那我不得再轉發這些事情了\n\n06:01.943 --> 06:05.225\n入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委\n\n06:24.033 --> 06:40.933\n他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議\n\n06:43.496 --> 06:56.905\n可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節\n\n06:58.647 --> 07:18.346\n更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰\n\n07:19.468 --> 07:38.459\n好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個\n\n07:39.059 --> 07:48.786\n那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎\n\n07:51.736 --> 08:17.050\n是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有\n\n08:21.272 --> 08:48.262\n新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了\n\n08:49.002 --> 09:07.073\n你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇\n\n09:10.351 --> 09:27.579\n跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加\n\n09:28.960 --> 09:43.142\n就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們\n\n09:44.224 --> 10:12.656\n提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待\n\n10:14.016 --> 10:36.715\n進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定\n\n10:38.016 --> 11:05.748\n希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去\n\n11:07.489 --> 11:25.616\n這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代\n\n11:30.038 --> 11:36.145\n包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表\n\n11:45.276 --> 12:09.901\n像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露\n\n12:10.501 --> 12:36.557\n那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊\n\n12:37.518 --> 12:50.434\n那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁\n\n12:51.783 --> 12:55.546\n這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與\n\n13:19.082 --> 13:35.619\n那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團\n\n13:42.245 --> 14:02.318\n我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理\n\n14:03.398 --> 14:26.776\n好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面\n\n14:27.697 --> 14:44.636\n協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.158,"end":7.421,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好 首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳"},{"start":27.322,"end":56.038,"text":"那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序"},{"start":56.718,"end":60.499,"text":"那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己"},{"start":84.384,"end":87.449,"text":"不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛"},{"start":100.108,"end":113.573,"text":"對 我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點"},{"start":116.494,"end":124.076,"text":"不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益"},{"start":141.365,"end":166.194,"text":"是 謝謝委員 我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化 對血緣的選擇 我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國 矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統"},{"start":167.614,"end":192.579,"text":"那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的"},{"start":197.182,"end":209.825,"text":"表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的"},{"start":227.969,"end":250.805,"text":"我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在"},{"start":251.925,"end":276.066,"text":"因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願"},{"start":279.389,"end":301.906,"text":"因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相"},{"start":302.566,"end":331.223,"text":"那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在"},{"start":331.823,"end":332.964,"text":"那我不得再轉發這些事情了"},{"start":361.943,"end":365.225,"text":"入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委"},{"start":384.033,"end":400.933,"text":"他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議"},{"start":403.496,"end":416.905,"text":"可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節"},{"start":418.647,"end":438.346,"text":"更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰"},{"start":439.468,"end":458.459,"text":"好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個"},{"start":459.059,"end":468.786,"text":"那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎"},{"start":471.736,"end":497.05,"text":"是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有"},{"start":501.272,"end":528.262,"text":"新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了"},{"start":529.002,"end":547.073,"text":"你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇"},{"start":550.351,"end":567.579,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加"},{"start":568.96,"end":583.142,"text":"就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們"},{"start":584.224,"end":612.656,"text":"提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待"},{"start":614.016,"end":636.715,"text":"進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定"},{"start":638.016,"end":665.748,"text":"希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去"},{"start":667.489,"end":685.616,"text":"這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代"},{"start":690.038,"end":696.145,"text":"包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表"},{"start":705.276,"end":729.901,"text":"像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露"},{"start":730.501,"end":756.557,"text":"那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊"},{"start":757.518,"end":770.434,"text":"那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁"},{"start":771.783,"end":775.546,"text":"這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與"},{"start":799.082,"end":815.619,"text":"那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團"},{"start":822.245,"end":842.318,"text":"我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理"},{"start":843.398,"end":866.776,"text":"好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面"},{"start":867.697,"end":884.636,"text":"協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時32分）好，謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。首先跟進前面幾位委員的議題，因為我知道現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位藝人，希望他們不要唱和中國、為中國宣傳，但是前幾天有幾位委員已經在另外一個委員會問到你們會根據兩岸條例第三十三條之一的這個紅線，查處的標準是按照頻率以及嚴重性來決定要不要開罰。這部分會有兩個紅線，一個是言論有明確表達要消滅臺灣主權或是有涉及武統，第二個紅線是破壞自由民主的憲政秩序。其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確，應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅，還是任何要到中國交流、表演的公眾人物，他們都應該要有所依循才對。當然我很認同陸委會接下來給他們的理由是說，不要讓他們身不由己，不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關圖卡的時候無所依循，因為如果連我們國內都沒有辦法給出標準，等於是讓他們沒有後盾去跟中共說他們不要做這件事情。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：我認為這個基礎是很好，只是剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確，才能讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物到中國的時候有所依循，而不是現在呈現這兩條有不夠明確的情況，而且可能變成第三十三條之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確規範，導致他們變得有點漫無邊際，擔心會不會做了這件事情、講了這句話，又觸犯了我們的兩岸條例，所以我明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確，才可以實質保障國人的權益。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員。對於在中國大陸發展的藝人，我們尊重國人的各種言論自由，包括對文化、對血緣的選擇我們都尊重，只不過對於某些言行，包括消滅中華民國、矮化臺灣，甚至鼓吹、配合中國大陸武統，這些言論當然都引起社會極大的反彈、反感跟不齒，所以很多的檢舉案就進來。這些我們關注的言論依據兩岸條例第三十三條之一，是屬於跟中國大陸黨政軍合作的行為，我們試想，他們往往在特定時刻一起、集體、共同表達各種矮化臺灣的說法或者轉發類似的圖卡，背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們。"],["黃委員捷：那這個我就要問了，例如每次中國生日的時候都會有臺灣的藝人集體轉發「祝祖國生日快樂」，前天沈副主委有提到，如果單純轉發，其實是不算的，是這樣子嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對於單純轉發，我們會尊重個人言論自由，但集體轉發，就是我們強調的合作行為，這種合作行為符合主觀跟客觀的要件，所以我們想透過這次跟文化部的行政查處去了解，背後的合作行為是不是存在。因為未經政府許可，不得跟中國大陸的黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為，我們是用查處來關切跟提醒他。至於關懷的部分，當然我們想知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經紀公司，或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫……"],["黃委員捷：威脅或者是查水表等等的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：逼著他們去政治表態，究竟他個人有沒有這個意願？一般來說，只要是臺灣人都有飲水思源、照顧故鄉的這一種本質，怎麼會回過頭來傷害自己的國家和栽培他的社會？因此我們要去調查原委，看是怎麼樣造成的，所以我們還是要有查處的行為之後，才能夠了解事實真相。另外，我們也透過這一次的查處關懷，因為在中國大陸可能生存不易，臺灣整個表演的空間自由比中國大陸更優越，加上文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人發展，如果他願意，可以回到臺灣。更重要的是，這個查處的作為也是在挺我們的藝人，讓他可以跟對岸說，政府已經在查處了，他不得再轉發這些事情。"],["黃委員捷：是，我就是認為你們應該要給出一些具體的行為規範，避免這些藝人誤觸統戰的紅線，也要給他們後盾、給他們理由，讓他們有理由拒絕中共，這個非常重要！剛剛講到第三十三條之一的解釋，中國黨政軍的合作行為到底是什麼？我希望陸委會要加以說明。"],["邱主任委員垂正：會的。"],["黃委員捷：例如我剛剛講的，除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情，還有例如臺灣的名嘴會說統戰有什麼關係，之前已經有好幾個名嘴，包括謝寒冰、趙少康都講過，這種算不算？另外一種就是像臺灣的立委，跟中國、中共的一些幹部見面，可能涉及一些有違國家利益、國家安全的行為，甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國……雖然這是假設，但現在傅崐萁已經說他代表中央政府了，如果他跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議，可能和平協議或什麼協議，這種算不算跟中國黨政軍有明確的合作行為？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個是更嚴重的情形。這是違反兩岸條例第五條之一，如果情節更重，還有刑罰的問題，這個部分我們也會查察，雖然他嘴巴這麼說，但是並沒有簽署協議。如果有的話，那就是明顯違反兩岸條例第五條之一，有比較重度的各種處罰。"],["黃委員捷：我希望我剛剛講的第三十三條之一的內容到底是什麼，可不可以請陸委會之後再提供書面？也在你們之後的記者會更明確讓大家知道，如何避免誤觸紅線，這個非常重要！","再來，剛好陳玉珍委員也在現場，這個就是我想要問的，請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經明確是中共對臺的統戰平臺，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。我們雖然是受邀參加，但是沒有臺灣的主體性，都是由它安排好它的統戰框架跟宣傳。"],["黃委員捷：我提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單，包括中國國民黨的副主席連勝文、中國國民黨的雲林縣長張麗善、在座的陳玉珍委員、蘇清泉委員、台灣民眾黨的中央委員、新黨的主席，還有金門的副縣長，全部都跑去兩岸海峽論壇。我想問的是，你們目前只有建議他們不要出席，有沒有更明確的作法？例如你們現在要求中央部會跟所屬單位人員不能出席、禁止以任何形式參加，但是對於地方政府以及地方的民代、中央的民代出席了，你們可不可以要求他們申報或者許可，又或者是公告這一些出席的名單，至少做到揭露的義務，讓大家知道臺灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共這樣的統戰論壇？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們這一次對於海峽論壇的處理原則就是您剛剛提到的，對於地方政府，由原本的不樂見前往，一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加，就是不同意參加海峽論壇，也希望他對所屬要參加海峽論壇也不予同意。我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多地方政府反映，我們提到不樂見，他們說這比較模糊，很多地方政府也跟我們說要明確一點。如果我們說不建議他們去，至少中國大陸很多邀約，他可以說我們的政府不……"],["黃委員捷：他可以推辭嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，他可以推辭。"],["黃委員捷：要給他們推辭的後盾跟理由。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，給他推辭的原因。更重要的是由於沒有主體性，你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇給地方政府釋出一些善意，其實這個都是區別對待，是對我們進行分化的統戰。事實上，我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有，口惠而實不至，所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了，他們有說希望政府就講明確一點，而我們這次就建議他們不要去。如果一定要去，我們也希望能夠遵守兩岸的相關規定，希望是對等尊嚴，也要注意社會的觀感。剛剛委員提的也很好，社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動，民眾會非常的高度關注，所以我們也建議一定要去的人，要注意社會觀感、國際視聽，確保能努力維護臺灣的整體利益。"],["黃委員捷：可不可以要求他們至少要申報或是提供出訪的行程呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：目前只有有限的、特定的要按照兩岸條例第九條規定來申報，我們也希望……"],["黃委員捷：那是不是至少要求有公職身分的，包括地方縣市首長還有政府人員，這個是本來就要，還包括議員、立委等民代及里長，如果他們要出席都已經被你們定義是對臺統戰平臺的海峽兩岸論壇，他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：以委員這張表，像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報，至於立法委員是沒有，我們也嘗試修法。不過立委肩負著很多選民的期許，他前往也會被高度關注，加上海峽論壇有很多媒體，所以都會被揭露。雖然有許多的政黨人士會前往，但不管怎麼樣，參加海峽論壇這種統戰的活動，我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸條例，共同維護臺灣整體的利益，也能夠對等尊嚴，不要太附和他們統戰的說法，否則對民心士氣是一種打擊。我們也希望他們要重視社會觀感，這很重要。謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。我相信這個就是講給臺下的陳玉珍委員聽的。","最後，不好意思，再給我1分鐘，好不好？看最後一頁，我這邊提供兩個案子，我接到兩個陳情案，一個是文藻外語大學，他們有學校的學務組長直接在學校跟學生推薦上海的參訪團，只要2,500塊就可以去7天，可以住4到5星級的飯店，邀請學生一起來參與；另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組訊息在散布當中，包括去上海蘇州，對象是對科學文化有興趣的全臺高中生，備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取，請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想應該是相當明確，最近也因為暑假快到了，類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案，陸委會認為，如果不是對等尊嚴的、不符合教育部規範的，我們會把類似這些個案移請教育部趕快處理，我們呼籲……"],["黃委員捷：好，這兩案其實我都移請了，只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會，沒錯，接下來就像你說的，暑假要到了，這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多，但是如何協助學校跟這一些宮廟去辨識它是不是統戰團，這部分我要拜託陸委會，接下來也請你們給我書面報告，以及在你們所有的公開平臺上面協助這些地方單位，不管是學校還是宗教，針對任何以文化為名的交流團，但實質是統戰團的，要讓他們知道怎麼辨識，讓他們知道怎麼去預防，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，這是我們職責所在，我們全力以赴，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，看來我們今天質詢的時間好像給得短了一點，請大家把握時間，好不好？","下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。麥玉珍委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}}