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{\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 314.795, \"end\": 314.815, \"score\": 0.771}]}, {\"start\": 315.737, \"end\": 344.973, \"text\": \"所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 315.737, \"end\": 315.837, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 315.837, \"end\": 315.937, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 315.937, \"end\": 316.117, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 316.117, \"end\": 316.297, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 316.297, \"end\": 316.477, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 316.477, \"end\": 316.658, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 316.658, \"end\": 316.998, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"功\", \"start\": 316.998, \"end\": 317.178, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 317.178, \"end\": 317.318, \"score\": 0.998}, 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{\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 419.048, \"end\": 419.588, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 419.588, \"end\": 420.168, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 420.168, \"end\": 420.348, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 420.348, \"end\": 420.549, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 420.549, \"end\": 420.789, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 420.789, \"end\": 421.189, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 421.189, \"end\": 421.349, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 421.349, \"end\": 421.529, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 421.529, \"end\": 421.969, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 421.969, \"end\": 422.129, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 422.129, \"end\": 423.11, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 423.11, \"end\": 423.33, 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0.916}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 426.812, \"end\": 427.172, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"尋\"}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 427.172, \"end\": 427.332, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 427.332, \"end\": 427.493, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 427.493, \"end\": 427.673, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 427.673, \"end\": 427.693, \"score\": 0.18}, {\"word\": \"導\"}]}, {\"start\": 428.624, \"end\": 441.13, \"text\": \"所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 428.624, \"end\": 428.724, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 428.724, \"end\": 429.584, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 429.584, \"end\": 429.905, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 429.905, \"end\": 430.225, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 430.225, \"end\": 430.745, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"长\", \"start\": 773.475, \"end\": 773.495, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:00,769\n好謝謝主席那請我們次長次長好\n\n2\n00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:40,221\n那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判\n\n3\n00:00:40,922 --> 00:00:51,391\n那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責\n\n4\n00:00:54,249 --> 00:01:21,773\n除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法\n\n5\n00:01:22,848 --> 00:01:34,306\n對所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾\n\n6\n00:01:36,218 --> 00:01:57,700\n訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個\n\n7\n00:01:59,281 --> 00:02:14,019\n仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式\n\n8\n00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:34,705\n那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加\n\n9\n00:02:35,365 --> 00:02:53,515\n對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講\n\n10\n00:02:55,996 --> 00:03:25,195\n其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下\n\n11\n00:03:26,078 --> 00:03:39,714\n對其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請找這個保姆\n\n12\n00:03:44,103 --> 00:04:09,819\n對文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼\n\n13\n00:04:11,007 --> 00:04:27,973\n這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以\n\n14\n00:04:29,341 --> 00:04:47,681\n所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢\n\n15\n00:04:48,421 --> 00:05:14,815\n內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助\n\n16\n00:05:15,737 --> 00:05:44,973\n所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情\n\n17\n00:05:46,417 --> 00:06:05,549\n所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導\n\n18\n00:06:06,169 --> 00:06:22,117\n那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的\n\n19\n00:06:23,655 --> 00:06:38,415\n所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個\n\n20\n00:06:40,157 --> 00:07:07,693\n好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導\n\n21\n00:07:08,624 --> 00:07:21,130\n所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強\n\n22\n00:07:22,369 --> 00:07:41,549\n那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實\n\n23\n00:07:44,054 --> 00:07:55,583\n幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個\n\n24\n00:07:59,426 --> 00:08:20,019\n基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令\n\n25\n00:08:22,496 --> 00:08:46,179\n基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突\n\n26\n00:08:47,259 --> 00:08:57,010\n所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈\n\n27\n00:09:00,950 --> 00:09:27,287\n他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太\n\n28\n00:09:28,351 --> 00:09:33,094\n是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐\n\n29\n00:09:54,125 --> 00:10:11,219\n所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理\n\n30\n00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:35,878\n所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天\n\n31\n00:10:36,798 --> 00:10:59,547\n我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像\n\n32\n00:11:00,387 --> 00:11:12,447\n所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊\n\n33\n00:11:13,972 --> 00:11:30,166\n我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形\n\n34\n00:11:30,902 --> 00:11:59,895\n對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後\n\n35\n00:12:00,595 --> 00:12:18,546\n他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做\n\n36\n00:12:19,795 --> 00:12:34,781\n所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了\n\n37\n00:12:35,761 --> 00:12:53,495\n如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t769\t好 謝謝主席 那請我們次長次長好\n20239\t40221\t那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判\n40922\t51391\t那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責\n54249\t81773\t除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法\n82848\t94306\t對 所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員 仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾\n96218\t117700\t訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個\n119281\t134019\t仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式\n135060\t154705\t那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加\n155365\t173515\t對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講\n175996\t205195\t其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下\n206078\t219714\t對 其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆\n224103\t249819\t對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼\n251007\t267973\t這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以\n269341\t287681\t所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢\n288421\t314815\t內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助\n315737\t344973\t所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情\n346417\t365549\t所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導\n366169\t382117\t那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的\n383655\t398415\t所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個\n400157\t427693\t好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導\n428624\t441130\t所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強\n442369\t461549\t那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實\n464054\t475583\t幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個\n479426\t500019\t基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令\n502496\t526179\t基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突\n527259\t537010\t所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈\n540950\t567287\t他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太\n568351\t573094\t是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐\n594125\t611219\t所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是 如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理\n612850\t635878\t所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天\n636798\t659547\t我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像\n660387\t672447\t所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊\n673972\t690166\t我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形\n690902\t719895\t對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後\n720595\t738546\t他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做\n739795\t754781\t所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了\n755761\t773495\t如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們次長次長好\n那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判\n那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責\n除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法\n對 所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員 仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾\n訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個\n仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式\n那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加\n對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講\n其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下\n對 其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆\n對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼\n這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以\n所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢\n內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助\n所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情\n所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導\n那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的\n所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個\n好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導\n所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強\n那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實\n幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個\n基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令\n基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突\n所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈\n他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太\n是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐\n所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是 如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理\n所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天\n我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像\n所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊\n我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形\n對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後\n他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做\n所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了\n如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:00.769\n好謝謝主席那請我們次長次長好\n\n00:20.239 --> 00:40.221\n那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判\n\n00:40.922 --> 00:51.391\n那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責\n\n00:54.249 --> 01:21.773\n除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法\n\n01:22.848 --> 01:34.306\n對所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾\n\n01:36.218 --> 01:57.700\n訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個\n\n01:59.281 --> 02:14.019\n仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式\n\n02:15.060 --> 02:34.705\n那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加\n\n02:35.365 --> 02:53.515\n對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講\n\n02:55.996 --> 03:25.195\n其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下\n\n03:26.078 --> 03:39.714\n對其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請找這個保姆\n\n03:44.103 --> 04:09.819\n對文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼\n\n04:11.007 --> 04:27.973\n這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以\n\n04:29.341 --> 04:47.681\n所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢\n\n04:48.421 --> 05:14.815\n內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助\n\n05:15.737 --> 05:44.973\n所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情\n\n05:46.417 --> 06:05.549\n所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導\n\n06:06.169 --> 06:22.117\n那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的\n\n06:23.655 --> 06:38.415\n所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個\n\n06:40.157 --> 07:07.693\n好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導\n\n07:08.624 --> 07:21.130\n所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強\n\n07:22.369 --> 07:41.549\n那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實\n\n07:44.054 --> 07:55.583\n幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個\n\n07:59.426 --> 08:20.019\n基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令\n\n08:22.496 --> 08:46.179\n基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突\n\n08:47.259 --> 08:57.010\n所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈\n\n09:00.950 --> 09:27.287\n他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太\n\n09:28.351 --> 09:33.094\n是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐\n\n09:54.125 --> 10:11.219\n所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理\n\n10:12.850 --> 10:35.878\n所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天\n\n10:36.798 --> 10:59.547\n我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像\n\n11:00.387 --> 11:12.447\n所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊\n\n11:13.972 --> 11:30.166\n我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形\n\n11:30.902 --> 11:59.895\n對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後\n\n12:00.595 --> 12:18.546\n他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做\n\n12:19.795 --> 12:34.781\n所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了\n\n12:35.761 --> 12:53.495\n如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.769,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們次長次長好"},{"start":20.239,"end":40.221,"text":"那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判"},{"start":40.922,"end":51.391,"text":"那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責"},{"start":54.249,"end":81.773,"text":"除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法"},{"start":82.848,"end":94.306,"text":"對 所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員 仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾"},{"start":96.218,"end":117.7,"text":"訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個"},{"start":119.281,"end":134.019,"text":"仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式"},{"start":135.06,"end":154.705,"text":"那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加"},{"start":155.365,"end":173.515,"text":"對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講"},{"start":175.996,"end":205.195,"text":"其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下"},{"start":206.078,"end":219.714,"text":"對 其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆"},{"start":224.103,"end":249.819,"text":"對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼"},{"start":251.007,"end":267.973,"text":"這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以"},{"start":269.341,"end":287.681,"text":"所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢"},{"start":288.421,"end":314.815,"text":"內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助"},{"start":315.737,"end":344.973,"text":"所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情"},{"start":346.417,"end":365.549,"text":"所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導"},{"start":366.169,"end":382.117,"text":"那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的"},{"start":383.655,"end":398.415,"text":"所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個"},{"start":400.157,"end":427.693,"text":"好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導"},{"start":428.624,"end":441.13,"text":"所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強"},{"start":442.369,"end":461.549,"text":"那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實"},{"start":464.054,"end":475.583,"text":"幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個"},{"start":479.426,"end":500.019,"text":"基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令"},{"start":502.496,"end":526.179,"text":"基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突"},{"start":527.259,"end":537.01,"text":"所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈"},{"start":540.95,"end":567.287,"text":"他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太"},{"start":568.351,"end":573.094,"text":"是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐"},{"start":594.125,"end":611.219,"text":"所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是 如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理"},{"start":612.85,"end":635.878,"text":"所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天"},{"start":636.798,"end":659.547,"text":"我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像"},{"start":660.387,"end":672.447,"text":"所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊"},{"start":673.972,"end":690.166,"text":"我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形"},{"start":690.902,"end":719.895,"text":"對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後"},{"start":720.595,"end":738.546,"text":"他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做"},{"start":739.795,"end":754.781,"text":"所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了"},{"start":755.761,"end":773.495,"text":"如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時2分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：次長好。上個禮拜剴剴案宣判了，當然我們也知道大家現在社會對虐童案的重視，對於這個主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑，妹妹被判處18年，以現行法條來講，也算是重判，表示司法跟社會現在對於虐童案這個行為，大家都是不能接受，而且法務部目前也在研議加重虐童的相關刑責。除了剴剴案之外，在上週也有發生基隆的兒虐案，這些兒虐案我們發現有一個共同點，其實他前面早就有跡可循，所以次長，你會不會覺得如果他有跡可循，是不是我們在這之前就應該有機會預防，是不是預防重於治療？"],["林次長靜儀：我同意委員的說法。"],["涂委員權吉：如果之前有跡可循，那是不是在我們訪視員訪視端這部分，我們沒有做到確切的訪視？"],["林次長靜儀：訪視的規範事實上在地方政府的規定。在剴剴案發生之後，我們也針對訪視的分級去做一個要求，因為有些他可能比較單純，有些可能是脆弱狀況，或特殊處遇跟出養童的情形，所以我們去年有針對這個做了訪視指引的分級，關於我們去年公告的訪視指引，第一個事情，在他訪視的過程中，他要嚴謹的來做訪視跟輔導，另外，他要採取不預約而且安排不同的時段去訪視，這才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況。另外，就是針對特殊需求，譬如說，他是發展遲緩的兒童、出養的兒童、家外的安置兒童，或收託任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話，我們請地方的社會局要增加他的訪視次數，視他的特殊情況可以再增加。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以我們一直以來對於社會安全網、對社工的部分，除了要增加人員之外，就是要把訪視的次數增加，既然有跡可循，就要持續來追蹤。我們除了訪視端的不足，我們發現像剴剴案來講，這個監督面我們也覺得失能，我想請問一下，我們監督制度設立的目的是什麼？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，在內部，剴剴案是在文山區這邊的居托中心，臺北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行他們居托中心的監督，這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下？"],["涂委員權吉：對，其實這我大概有了解，臺北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會，再請文山居托中心去聘請這個保母？"],["張副署長美美：對，文山居托中心是負責管理保母的單位。"],["涂委員權吉：保母嘛？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以由兒福中心去轉介這個保母，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：這個保母是由兒盟自己去找到的。"],["涂委員權吉：對，他找到這個保母去照顧剴剴，那我要問的是，他監督的功能是什麼？"],["張副署長美美：這個監督的機制應該是……第一個，兒盟找到了臺北市的這個保母，這個保母是由文山居托中心來負責管理，文山居托中心是由臺北市政府委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個居托中心，所以新北市的大愛關懷協會應該要來督導、監督、管理這些保母。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以他有聘請督導，然後我剛剛有了解一下，你們督導有分內部督導跟外部督導，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：對，我們督導有分內部督導跟外部督導。"],["涂委員權吉：差別在哪裡？他的權責呢？"],["張副署長美美：督導的功能大概有教育、行政跟支持，內部的督導包括內部處理個案的流程、行政的事務，這些都應該是內部督導要處理的；外部督導比較多的功能應該是教育或是支持，因為社工在處理個案的時候，可能這個家庭是非常複雜的，可能在專業知能上面需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助。"],["涂委員權吉：據我了解，外部督導的功能包括這些訪視員訪視回來要檢視訪員的紀錄嘛？"],["張副署長美美：這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任，因為個案紀錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案紀錄，那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次，所以內部督導應該是個案紀錄的檢視，比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情。"],["涂委員權吉：我剛講說檢視訪員紀錄，還有我再了解一下，好像他也要確認保護案件的處理情形，這些都是內部做的嗎？外部不需要做嗎？"],["張副署長美美：第一個剛剛有提到了，所有管理的責任比較多會是內部督導，另外單位要請外部督導，通常他們會就議題來處理，例如他可能需要一些專業知識，譬如我們這次想要對於兒保的知識要了解，或是兒虐的知識要了解，比較會是主題式的。"],["涂委員權吉：據我們了解，我看你們的報告，剛剛也有委員提到，你們外部督導好像真的不是督導，感覺真的好像是顧問，有事情再來問他，這個跟督導的設立好像不太一樣。"],["林次長靜儀：事實上，本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度，那外部督導是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案，在原有制度之外要提供他的知能、能力或是幫他尋求更多資源的情況之下，由外督來協助。"],["涂委員權吉：外部督導是主動還是被動？"],["林次長靜儀：外部督導主要是由這個機構有需求的時候來尋求外部督導。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我說聽起來像顧問，有問題才去問他。"],["林次長靜儀：比較是由他來提供原來機構內部的訪視員或是社工在知識能力或資源上面的加強。"],["涂委員權吉：照你們講的，督導的工作幾乎都是內部督導在做？"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望內部督導的職責能夠落實，而且他才是跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係。"],["涂委員權吉：所以你們的報告寫的意思就是說，外部督導其實幾乎就不像督導，真的就像我們講的就是顧問。"],["林次長靜儀：他雖然叫做督導，不過事實上，外督主要的角色是支持及協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工，或者是我們的訪視輔導員。"],["涂委員權吉：關於剴剴案跟基隆兒虐案的發生，我們真的希望你們訪視員去訪視的時候，其實很多事情都已經有跡可循，像基隆兒虐案，當初他就有通報說，這位父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起，那時候是不是已經申請保護令？"],["張司長秀鴛：基隆兒虐的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題，是離婚案件所導致，以孩子作為報復手段的兒虐案件，所以結果看起來是兒虐，事實上，它是離婚案件。"],["涂委員權吉：所以前面訪視的時候，就有一些跡象了嘛！"],["張司長秀鴛：孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突，所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度。"],["涂委員權吉：如果沒有訪視的時候，沒有發現有一些問題，他幹嘛要申請保護令？"],["張司長秀鴛：他申請的保護令是媽媽對爸爸，就是案父跟案母因為要離婚，夫妻之間產生衝突，所以媽媽去申請對先生的禁止施暴的保護令，並沒有申請孩子遠離父親的保護令。"],["涂委員權吉：所以前面沒有發現小孩子跟父親的問題，可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：他是對太太，因為是夫妻關係感情不好、相處的一些問題，包括他們的家務分工還有生活費的一些支付，然後長久有一些觀念不一致，導致媽媽有打算要離婚，也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的兒虐。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦！對太太都有暴力傾向，離婚以後太太不在，他是不是就轉介到小孩子身上？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，如果按照常理，通常法院在裁判離婚的時候，針對孩子的監護權會另做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：我們今天希望針對這些兒虐跟剴剴的事件，預防重於治療，這個訪視一定要加強，這訪視居然有一些跡象，我們就要加強訪視，而且我們今天了解以後，發現我們督導的制度在內部、外部其實都不是很明確；今天我是覺得針對外部督導的部分，你們衛福部有一點避重就輕，但是重點，我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任，而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚，如果照衛福部今天所說明的督導制度，好像所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部，外部督導根本只是流於形式，而且講實在根本就是一個顧問職的，根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會全力來讓制度內能夠好好的運作，當然外部督導這邊我們另外來協助，就是它是六人以下、本身配置比較小的機構，我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！而且據我們了解，這督導的重要工作就是檢視訪員的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形，所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後，督導本來就是比較專業，針對訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現，就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向，督導就應該要去注意啊！他對老婆會有這種暴力傾向，在離婚之後，就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情，督導就是比較專業，姑且不論內部及外部督導的權責怎麼樣，我覺得今天督導的責任應該要發揮它的專業領域，對於這個處理的情形也要好好落實去做，所以希望這個權責一定要劃分清楚，而且內部及外部真的要好好規範一下，照今天這樣講起來，督導好像都是內部督導的責任，外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了啦！如果照你們今天的報告說明，我是感覺是不是有避重就輕？但是還是希望事情發生了看如何去補救？權責怎麼去處理？訪視一定要確切，督導後續的工作處理情形一定要落實來追蹤。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員指導。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝次長、謝謝涂委員。","現在休息8分鐘。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","等一下在林淑芬委員質詢後，我們處理臨時提案。","廖偉翔委員改書面質詢。","接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}