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590.18, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 590.18, \"end\": 590.2, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 590.2, \"end\": 590.22, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:21,071\n好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署好委員好好次長好\n\n2\n00:00:22,163 --> 00:00:47,029\n我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導\n\n3\n00:00:48,151 --> 00:00:52,520\n應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接畫上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任\n\n4\n00:00:53,973 --> 00:01:18,808\n那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情\n\n5\n00:01:20,729 --> 00:01:39,956\n那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為\n\n6\n00:01:50,941 --> 00:02:12,274\n顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過\n\n7\n00:02:12,754 --> 00:02:39,982\n沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升\n\n8\n00:02:40,322 --> 00:03:08,509\n好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的\n\n9\n00:03:09,589 --> 00:03:16,454\n這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以\n\n10\n00:03:38,127 --> 00:03:51,418\n在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎\n\n11\n00:03:52,740 --> 00:04:08,781\n理論上是這樣就是說如果這一個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些\n\n12\n00:04:09,562 --> 00:04:30,814\n其他外來的資訊需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導可是如果這個沒有提出這樣的需求的話那當然外都委員不會知道這個個案的狀況所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎\n\n13\n00:04:31,254 --> 00:04:44,406\n我想多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好\n\n14\n00:04:47,349 --> 00:05:14,137\n把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程\n\n15\n00:05:16,377 --> 00:05:38,587\n好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠\n\n16\n00:05:39,787 --> 00:06:06,138\n以凱凱案來講因為他也是包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責\n\n17\n00:06:07,962 --> 00:06:37,328\n我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了\n\n18\n00:06:38,148 --> 00:07:01,147\n這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心\n\n19\n00:07:02,108 --> 00:07:30,918\n然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任\n\n20\n00:07:31,923 --> 00:07:54,509\n我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好\n\n21\n00:07:55,149 --> 00:08:21,207\n那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是\n\n22\n00:08:22,738 --> 00:08:38,490\n藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他\n\n23\n00:08:45,595 --> 00:09:03,193\n被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新\n\n24\n00:09:04,815 --> 00:09:17,578\n所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調\n\n25\n00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:50,220\n台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝郭委員謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t21071\t好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署好委員好好次長好\n22163\t47029\t我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導\n48151\t52520\t應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接畫上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任\n53973\t78808\t那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情\n80729\t99956\t那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為\n110941\t132274\t顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過\n132754\t159982\t沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升\n160322\t188509\t好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的\n189589\t196454\t這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以\n218127\t231418\t在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎\n232740\t248781\t理論上是這樣就是說如果這一個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些\n249562\t270814\t其他外來的資訊需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導可是如果這個沒有提出這樣的需求的話那當然外都委員不會知道這個個案的狀況所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎\n271254\t284406\t我想多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好\n287349\t314137\t把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎 不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程\n316377\t338587\t好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠\n339787\t366138\t以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責\n367962\t397328\t我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了\n398148\t421147\t這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心\n422108\t450918\t然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任\n451923\t474509\t我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好\n475149\t501207\t那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是\n502738\t518490\t藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他\n525595\t543193\t被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新\n544815\t557578\t所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調\n563300\t590220\t台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員 謝謝次長\n","txt":"好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署好委員好好次長好\n我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導\n應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接畫上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任\n那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情\n那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為\n顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過\n沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升\n好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的\n這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以\n在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎\n理論上是這樣就是說如果這一個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些\n其他外來的資訊需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導可是如果這個沒有提出這樣的需求的話那當然外都委員不會知道這個個案的狀況所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎\n我想多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好\n把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎 不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程\n好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠\n以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責\n我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了\n這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心\n然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任\n我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好\n那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是\n藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他\n被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新\n所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調\n台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員 謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:21.071\n好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署好委員好好次長好\n\n00:22.163 --> 00:47.029\n我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導\n\n00:48.151 --> 00:52.520\n應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接畫上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任\n\n00:53.973 --> 01:18.808\n那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情\n\n01:20.729 --> 01:39.956\n那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為\n\n01:50.941 --> 02:12.274\n顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過\n\n02:12.754 --> 02:39.982\n沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升\n\n02:40.322 --> 03:08.509\n好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的\n\n03:09.589 --> 03:16.454\n這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以\n\n03:38.127 --> 03:51.418\n在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎\n\n03:52.740 --> 04:08.781\n理論上是這樣就是說如果這一個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些\n\n04:09.562 --> 04:30.814\n其他外來的資訊需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導可是如果這個沒有提出這樣的需求的話那當然外都委員不會知道這個個案的狀況所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎\n\n04:31.254 --> 04:44.406\n我想多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好\n\n04:47.349 --> 05:14.137\n把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程\n\n05:16.377 --> 05:38.587\n好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠\n\n05:39.787 --> 06:06.138\n以凱凱案來講因為他也是包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責\n\n06:07.962 --> 06:37.328\n我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了\n\n06:38.148 --> 07:01.147\n這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心\n\n07:02.108 --> 07:30.918\n然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任\n\n07:31.923 --> 07:54.509\n我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好\n\n07:55.149 --> 08:21.207\n那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是\n\n08:22.738 --> 08:38.490\n藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他\n\n08:45.595 --> 09:03.193\n被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新\n\n09:04.815 --> 09:17.578\n所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調\n\n09:23.300 --> 09:50.220\n台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝郭委員謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":21.071,"text":"好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署好委員好好次長好"},{"start":22.163,"end":47.029,"text":"我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導"},{"start":48.151,"end":52.52,"text":"應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接畫上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任"},{"start":53.973,"end":78.808,"text":"那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情"},{"start":80.729,"end":99.956,"text":"那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為"},{"start":110.941,"end":132.274,"text":"顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過"},{"start":132.754,"end":159.982,"text":"沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升"},{"start":160.322,"end":188.509,"text":"好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的"},{"start":189.589,"end":196.454,"text":"這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以"},{"start":218.127,"end":231.418,"text":"在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎"},{"start":232.74,"end":248.781,"text":"理論上是這樣就是說如果這一個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些"},{"start":249.562,"end":270.814,"text":"其他外來的資訊需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導可是如果這個沒有提出這樣的需求的話那當然外都委員不會知道這個個案的狀況所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎"},{"start":271.254,"end":284.406,"text":"我想多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好"},{"start":287.349,"end":314.137,"text":"把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎 不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程"},{"start":316.377,"end":338.587,"text":"好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠"},{"start":339.787,"end":366.138,"text":"以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責"},{"start":367.962,"end":397.328,"text":"我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了"},{"start":398.148,"end":421.147,"text":"這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心"},{"start":422.108,"end":450.918,"text":"然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任"},{"start":451.923,"end":474.509,"text":"我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好"},{"start":475.149,"end":501.207,"text":"那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是"},{"start":502.738,"end":518.49,"text":"藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他"},{"start":525.595,"end":543.193,"text":"被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新"},{"start":544.815,"end":557.578,"text":"所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調"},{"start":563.3,"end":590.22,"text":"台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員 謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1034,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["郭委員昱晴：社家署其實也可以一起上來。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們請社家署。委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長好。我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多，大家在詢問關於剴剴案相關的外部督導問題，也有很多委員的一些疑問，我想剛剛在整個質詢的過程當中應該也得到了一個解釋，就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：雖然大家都看「督導」兩個字，就覺得外部督導應該跟剴剴案直接畫上等號，就是應該是屬於他的責任，我想這個其實是應該要說清楚，講明白的。今天我們要不厭其煩的再告訴大家，外部督導講的是什麼樣的工作性質，是精神上實質的支持這些所謂的社工，應該是說他們在教育上的加強，在資源上的支持，甚至是情緒上的鼓勵，我想外部督導應該是做這樣的事情。就我所知，當一個單位去請所謂的外聘督導時，其實他們開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次，可能一季開一次。這就很像公司在請一個顧問，我的公司出了什麼樣的營運狀況，我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的方向，讓我能夠在內部的內規或者是我的營運狀態，可以因為顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的提供，我可以來做精進。就我的理解，是不是應該是這樣？"],["林次長靜儀：是，因為社工工作事實上真的是面對這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向，因應到整個社會的發展，社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同的問題，可能是過去所受的訓練或經驗上面沒有碰過的東西。所以我們在外督的角色裡面，就像委員這邊提到的，事實上就是包含了教育、行政跟支持。行政上面給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導；教育上面是更加的提升專業職能，尤其是原來這位社工過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中，可能缺乏的或者還沒有辦法達到的這個部分的專業，讓他做職能上的提升。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。其實我們前一陣子看到剴剴案，最後這個劉姓保母姐妹已經確定一個被判無期徒刑，另外一個是18年，已經是最重的刑責了。當然這個剴剴案也揪出了很多相關的負面聲浪，覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導身上。我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水，然後被指摘的這位外部督導的所有工作時程，從2月24號、5月29號跟8月10號，但記得嗎？這個是2023年；這位外部督導再次接到這個單位請他再來的時候，其實已經是12月26號，那剴剴是在12月24號的平安夜離開的，所以在9月1號，剴剴才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上。其實這中間我們看到，他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的，我這樣理解對嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：理論上是這樣，就是說我們現在這個居托中心的訪視輔導員或他本身的工作過程中，如果對於剴剴或這樣的特殊處遇兒有一些其他外來的資訊需求，那他當然必須邀請他的外督委員來給他更多的指導；可是如果當時沒有提出這樣的需求的話，那當然外督委員不會知道這個個案的狀況。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上，次長覺得這樣對他公平嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我想長期以來多數的外督委員為什麼會願意接外督，就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外，也增加他們的能力，用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好。"],["郭委員昱晴：但把剴剴的離開歸咎在這位外部督導的身上，這公平嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：不合理，因為本來在內部就應該有內部的制度。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，但是我們現在看到不管是從地方臺北市政府或是他應該要扛起的責任，或者是臺北市議員不斷的透過媒體在潑髒水的同時，我現在就要問臺北市政府社會局訪視的過程。從2023年的5月16號訪視，到了9月1號剴剴才進入劉姓保母的家中，而臺北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次，就是9月26號。這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠？"],["林次長靜儀：以剴剴案來講，因為他是出養童，而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介。其實我們當然希望他的訪視輔導員，可以有更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中，針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，回到問題的本體，真正的監督機制是不是應該由地方政府扛起全責？"],["林次長靜儀：我們站在衛福部的立場，當然是希望就整個制度的運作以及相關法規方面來給予地方政府在相關的運作上面更多的支持，但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內，能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務。"],["郭委員昱晴：早上我聽到黃國昌委員說，外部督導其實沒有負責監督，而是加強社工教育的意義，給予外部資源的一個支持，但他也說了臺北市政府是不能免責的對吧？"],["林次長靜儀：我想委員們可能都對於「督導」兩個字，認為有「督」，可是他們其實在外督的角色裡面主要是「導」跟協助。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來我看到另外一個問題，這個是由臺北市政府的社會局外托給文山居托中心，之後再委托大愛關懷協會，而且是限制性的招標，限制性的招標裡頭包含了評審委員當中有三位就是來自臺北市政府的社會局。如果以剴剴的個案來講，這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次，只去視察一次，這個臺北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任？"],["林次長靜儀：我想社會局在這個角色裡面，他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的服務。當然衛福部在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案，有要求他們應該要有一個訪視的指引，把這個部分補強起來，我們當然希望地方政府，尤其是本來就參與在這裡面的委員，他應該要清楚的知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。那我再重複一次，剴剴案其實是我跟月琴委員從頭到尾關心的，去年9月3號的時候，我們成功的把他的主管機關，從教育部直接改立到衛福部的身上。關於剴剴案的部分，我也是跟月琴委員兩度去旁聽，包含準備庭與審理庭。現在我看到的是，藍白一昧的提及林月琴委員及外部督導的部分，他們看到「督導」兩個字整個都嗨起來了，我覺得是非常非常的不公平。本席再次強調，2023年12月24號的平安夜剴剴離開了，不到兩歲。最後他被媒體揭露是在3月11號，但3月18號就在這個委員會當中，所有的國民黨委員在護一個人，那個人叫召委，那個人就叫做王育敏，當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事，他沒有利益迴避。這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新，所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少，而且真正在關心剴剴案的親力親為的委員身上，把外部督導形容成是殺剴剴的兇手，這個對我們來講是多大的一個侮辱。","我再次強調，臺北市政府還有新北市政府、兒福聯盟有絕大的責任，因為這個孩子最後得到的只有兒福聯盟一個500塊錢的冰冷屍袋。如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水，其實真的大可不必。再次謝謝次長。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員持續的關心，針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童，我們一起來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝次長。","邱鎮軍委員改書面質詢。","接續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}