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\"相\", \"start\": 706.64, \"end\": 707.0, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 707.0, \"end\": 707.08, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 707.08, \"end\": 707.301, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 707.301, \"end\": 707.841, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 707.841, \"end\": 707.861, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 712.711, \"end\": 712.872, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 712.872, \"end\": 712.993, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 712.993, \"end\": 713.013, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,055 --> 00:00:08,896\n主席謝謝麻煩請林次長\n\n2\n00:00:15,989 --> 00:00:39,322\n市長好本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為\n\n3\n00:00:40,723 --> 00:00:58,874\n不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到\n\n4\n00:00:59,855 --> 00:01:15,264\n交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過\n\n5\n00:01:15,984 --> 00:01:39,935\n那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考\n\n6\n00:01:40,935 --> 00:01:57,462\n因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練\n\n7\n00:01:58,422 --> 00:02:14,204\n但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓\n\n8\n00:02:15,445 --> 00:02:30,286\n行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估\n\n9\n00:02:30,987 --> 00:02:58,781\n那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是\n\n10\n00:02:59,791 --> 00:03:28,387\n呃是不是請台大台大院長是離開了來院長還在是是好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛\n\n11\n00:03:29,468 --> 00:03:32,270\n教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的\n\n12\n00:03:59,249 --> 00:04:21,134\n好職場這邊的話那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款\n\n13\n00:04:22,738 --> 00:04:47,193\n今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛\n\n14\n00:04:48,414 --> 00:05:02,473\n這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的\n\n15\n00:05:04,635 --> 00:05:31,777\n這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛\n\n16\n00:05:32,398 --> 00:05:50,310\n利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局\n\n17\n00:05:51,457 --> 00:06:04,176\n所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%\n\n18\n00:06:07,901 --> 00:06:36,430\n我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會\n\n19\n00:06:37,870 --> 00:07:03,380\n所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你\n\n20\n00:07:05,417 --> 00:07:25,844\n執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重\n\n21\n00:07:27,085 --> 00:07:54,555\n其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以委員他醫法可以你應該是\n\n22\n00:07:56,172 --> 00:08:23,961\n他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以\n\n23\n00:08:25,941 --> 00:08:52,110\n應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理\n\n24\n00:08:53,413 --> 00:09:19,498\n所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查\n\n25\n00:09:20,698 --> 00:09:49,533\n調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行\n\n26\n00:09:51,214 --> 00:10:15,929\n請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛\n\n27\n00:10:16,369 --> 00:10:35,035\n所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是\n\n28\n00:10:46,755 --> 00:10:59,172\n一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌\n\n29\n00:11:02,295 --> 00:11:22,104\n我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會\n\n30\n00:11:23,344 --> 00:11:47,861\n然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長\n\n31\n00:11:52,711 --> 00:11:53,013\n好謝謝黃委員謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8055\t8896\t主席謝謝 麻煩請林次長\n15989\t39322\t市長好 本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為\n40723\t58874\t不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到\n59855\t75264\t交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過\n75984\t99935\t那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考\n100935\t117462\t因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練\n118422\t134204\t但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓\n135445\t150286\t行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估\n150987\t178781\t那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是\n179791\t208387\t呃 是不是請台大台大 院長是離開了來 院長還在是是 好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有 這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是 但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛\n209468\t212270\t教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的\n239249\t261134\t好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款\n262738\t287193\t今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛\n288414\t302473\t這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的\n304635\t331777\t這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛\n332398\t350310\t利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局\n351457\t364176\t所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%\n367901\t396430\t我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會\n397870\t423380\t所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你\n425417\t445844\t執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重\n447085\t474555\t其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局 您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以 委員他醫法可以你應該是\n476172\t503961\t他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以\n505941\t532110\t應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理\n533413\t559498\t所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查\n560698\t589533\t調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行\n591214\t615929\t請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛\n616369\t635035\t所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是\n646755\t659172\t一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌\n662295\t682104\t我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會\n683344\t707861\t然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長\n712711\t713013\t好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長\n","txt":"主席謝謝 麻煩請林次長\n市長好 本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為\n不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到\n交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過\n那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考\n因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練\n但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓\n行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估\n那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是\n呃 是不是請台大台大 院長是離開了來 院長還在是是 好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有 這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是 但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛\n教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的\n好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款\n今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛\n這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的\n這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛\n利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局\n所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%\n我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會\n所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你\n執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重\n其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局 您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以 委員他醫法可以你應該是\n他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以\n應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理\n所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查\n調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行\n請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛\n所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是\n一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌\n我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會\n然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長\n好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.055 --> 00:08.896\n主席謝謝麻煩請林次長\n\n00:15.989 --> 00:39.322\n市長好本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為\n\n00:40.723 --> 00:58.874\n不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到\n\n00:59.855 --> 01:15.264\n交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過\n\n01:15.984 --> 01:39.935\n那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考\n\n01:40.935 --> 01:57.462\n因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練\n\n01:58.422 --> 02:14.204\n但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓\n\n02:15.445 --> 02:30.286\n行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估\n\n02:30.987 --> 02:58.781\n那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是\n\n02:59.791 --> 03:28.387\n呃是不是請台大台大院長是離開了來院長還在是是好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛\n\n03:29.468 --> 03:32.270\n教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的\n\n03:59.249 --> 04:21.134\n好職場這邊的話那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款\n\n04:22.738 --> 04:47.193\n今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛\n\n04:48.414 --> 05:02.473\n這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的\n\n05:04.635 --> 05:31.777\n這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛\n\n05:32.398 --> 05:50.310\n利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局\n\n05:51.457 --> 06:04.176\n所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%\n\n06:07.901 --> 06:36.430\n我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會\n\n06:37.870 --> 07:03.380\n所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你\n\n07:05.417 --> 07:25.844\n執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重\n\n07:27.085 --> 07:54.555\n其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以委員他醫法可以你應該是\n\n07:56.172 --> 08:23.961\n他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以\n\n08:25.941 --> 08:52.110\n應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理\n\n08:53.413 --> 09:19.498\n所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查\n\n09:20.698 --> 09:49.533\n調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行\n\n09:51.214 --> 10:15.929\n請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛\n\n10:16.369 --> 10:35.035\n所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是\n\n10:46.755 --> 10:59.172\n一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌\n\n11:02.295 --> 11:22.104\n我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會\n\n11:23.344 --> 11:47.861\n然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長\n\n11:52.711 --> 11:53.013\n好謝謝黃委員謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.055,"end":8.896,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請林次長"},{"start":15.989,"end":39.322,"text":"市長好 本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為"},{"start":40.723,"end":58.874,"text":"不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到"},{"start":59.855,"end":75.264,"text":"交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過"},{"start":75.984,"end":99.935,"text":"那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考"},{"start":100.935,"end":117.462,"text":"因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練"},{"start":118.422,"end":134.204,"text":"但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓"},{"start":135.445,"end":150.286,"text":"行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估"},{"start":150.987,"end":178.781,"text":"那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是"},{"start":179.791,"end":208.387,"text":"呃 是不是請台大台大 院長是離開了來 院長還在是是 好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有 這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是 但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛"},{"start":209.468,"end":212.27,"text":"教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的"},{"start":239.249,"end":261.134,"text":"好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款"},{"start":262.738,"end":287.193,"text":"今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛"},{"start":288.414,"end":302.473,"text":"這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的"},{"start":304.635,"end":331.777,"text":"這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛"},{"start":332.398,"end":350.31,"text":"利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局"},{"start":351.457,"end":364.176,"text":"所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%"},{"start":367.901,"end":396.43,"text":"我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會"},{"start":397.87,"end":423.38,"text":"所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你"},{"start":425.417,"end":445.844,"text":"執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重"},{"start":447.085,"end":474.555,"text":"其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局 您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以 委員他醫法可以你應該是"},{"start":476.172,"end":503.961,"text":"他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以"},{"start":505.941,"end":532.11,"text":"應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理"},{"start":533.413,"end":559.498,"text":"所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查"},{"start":560.698,"end":589.533,"text":"調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行"},{"start":591.214,"end":615.929,"text":"請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛"},{"start":616.369,"end":635.035,"text":"所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是"},{"start":646.755,"end":659.172,"text":"一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌"},{"start":662.295,"end":682.104,"text":"我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會"},{"start":683.344,"end":707.861,"text":"然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長"},{"start":712.711,"end":713.013,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時47分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。本席比較關心另外一個部分，針對前兩天新北三峽發生重大車禍，交通部昨天已經講到要把現行的高齡換照，從75歲調降到70歲，並且還要再針對不管是體檢或是這一些制度，有一些相關的措施。以比較專業的考量來講，不管這一件新北三峽的案件到底是不是高齡者開車的狀況，因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸，但不管怎麼說，這都是天理難容，也都是大家沒有辦法接受的。可是拉回來，我們現在比較多討論的是，因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪，交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊？如果未來要調降到70歲，那我們有什麼樣的一個協助、比較專業的評估，是評估這個人到底能不能適合來開車的部分。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員關心。我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過，這個事件發生的緣由我們就尊重調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，檢調現在正在調查。"],["林次長靜儀：是，不過站在衛福部這邊的角色，當然我們會全力來協助交通部，也就是說交通部對於駕照的核發以及他要剝奪哪些人的駕照這件事情，過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件，所以衛福部會提供專業上的意見讓交通部參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：依現行的換照制度，75歲只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告就可以換照。將來有沒有什麼樣的考慮，可以再做更精進、專業的評估？甚至交通部有提到要實地演練，但我今天問交通部部長，交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引。所以這三個月可能也會請衛福部來協助，什麼樣的實際演練是高齡者駕車一定要有靈活的判斷，或是靈活的掌握，能夠讓行車的安全是可以有保障的。"],["林次長靜儀：衛福部會根據國外的一些例子，以及對於生理或者是精神上的能力，在交通判斷上面的科學數據，來給交通部做評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外一點，今天感謝召委排這個相關的案件，但是其中特別要針對的就是，臺大醫院2021年發生黃姓醫師的性侵猥褻案件。我想釐清幾個部分，今天早上聽到委員的相關詢答，臺大在2.5個月內就做了內部懲處，是不是？"],["林次長靜儀：是不是請臺大……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺大院長是不是已經離開了？院長還在，是不是？"],["吳院長明賢：2.5個月就做完了。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼只有通報社會局，卻沒有通報衛生局呢？"],["林次長靜儀：依照法規而言，這是性騷案件，所以是通報社會局。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是依照哪個法規？醫師法？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，這個應該不是醫師法，而是性騷擾防治法。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是針對醫師法的部分呢？因為他是醫師嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，醫師法的部分是另外一件事。報告委員，我們對於性騷或性侵等等有性平三法的法規，包含性別工作平等法、性別平等教育法及性騷擾防治法。就性別工作平等法與性別平等教育法而言，事實上，在學校這邊要有性平相關的裁處以及在他的職場上要有性別工作平等法的裁處。就這兩邊而言，如果是屬於教育系統的部分，調查完之後是送教育部，如果是屬於職場的部分，事實上就是通報地方主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你拉遠了！我們現在是針對個案，雖然這是個案，但也有可能是通案。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先不針對臺大醫院或任何醫院都可能發生那樣的情況，為什麼會在醫師法第二十五條有相關的規範？如果有下列的情況，醫師公會或主管機關可以移付懲戒，其中第四款，今天早上答詢時的回復是因為要經判刑確定後才做……"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天沒有這樣說。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛看到媒體的報導。"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天沒有這樣說、我們一直都沒有這樣主張，它就是醫師法的五款都可以使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯！我現在是講第二款要經判刑確定，但是有第四款，如果執行業務違反醫學倫理就應該要送懲處嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分就是我們希望包含公會或機構這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所謂的違反醫學倫理，次長，關於違反醫學倫理，什麼樣的樣態、什麼樣的形式是違反醫學倫理？"],["林次長靜儀：違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中比較明顯的、比較常見的？"],["林次長靜儀：譬如這次的幾個案件，利用看診時照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或騷擾，本來就違反醫學倫理、也違法。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["林次長靜儀：另外，有些醫師在執行業務的過程中，譬如對病人有不當的言行，或是倚仗病人對他的信任而進行不應該有的行為，這些都是在醫學倫理上……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你是中央主管機關，講得非常明確，利用醫病關係圖利，包括性騷擾或性侵病人，這都是違反醫學倫理嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們也希望公會可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是違反醫學倫理，剛剛也提到臺大醫院在2.5個月內就對這個案件做出相關的懲戒，但是它沒有通報衛生局，只有內部的行政作業，而且只通報了社會局。"],["林次長靜儀：臺大這邊是依法通報啦！但是我們也希望，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：違反醫學倫理就是醫師法第二十五條啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我們也認為、我也認為醫師這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所謂的醫病關係，我都相信、我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好醫師、都是正常醫師、都是遵守醫學倫理，但我們不能讓少數人成了害群之馬，所以在這些害群之馬犯了這樣的過錯之後，應該怎麼做就要怎麼做嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：在這個流程上我們全力支持，無論是醫師公會或機構內的醫院主管等等，它都應該要能夠向地方衛生局提出要求讓醫師進入懲戒委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，針對這個案件，我想我們應該要利用個案來防止通案的發生，未來像這類的案件，如果醫院因為有性騷擾或性侵害而召開院內的委員會，除了確定將他調職之外，也應該要通報衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：根據目前的法規，如果就法律而言，它的權責往上通報……"],["洪委員孟楷：法律就已經有了，醫師法第二十五條啊！醫師法第二十五條第四款不就是告訴你，執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：我們支持他們移送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["林次長靜儀：我們支持他們移送懲戒，也希望大家一起建立這樣的專業道德，移送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，針對這個案件，臺大醫院是國內的龍頭，我們予以尊重，至於其他的醫院，我們也認為99.9%的醫師都是好的、都是正常的、都是良善的，但是不要有少數的害群之馬，所以我們才會提出，一旦醫院發生性騷擾或性侵害的狀況，在院內自行調查完畢之後就應該要通報社會局及衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望醫院調查完之後可以主動送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們是主管機關，不能只是希望，應該是要求。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，它依法可以、它依法可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：在這個案件上是不是沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：它依法可以，但就是到了已經判刑後，我們才知道這件事啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：它可以，但是它沒有！"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，它在調查過程……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你講到了一句名言，其實我可以接受你講的這句名言，衛生局不會通靈，如果沒有人報案的話，衛生局不知道就沒有辦法開罰，但我們現在講的是主管機關要負起責任，因為它是社會安全網環環相扣的一環。為什麼大家會認為白色巨塔內比較官官相護？醫院明明在2個半月內就已經針對這件事作出調查並將醫師調離，但是他卻仍然持續看診，沒有受到醫師法第二十五條第四款的處罰、沒有移送懲戒，所以衛生局不知道，因為衛生局不知道就沒辦法做後續的處理。"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們希望、我們也拜託公會及機構，它是可以送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你是主管機關擁有權限，不能只是希望，怎麼到最後你好像是路人甲乙丙丁。"],["張司長秀鴛：委員，我想澄清這件事，經過這次這樣的討論之後，我們發現了一個盲點，因為醫師執行職務時對病人性騷擾，醫院直接做調查，調查之後，按照法律規定要送當地的主管機關，也就是社會局，剛剛院長也是這樣講。社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾，在這個行為確定之後，我們做的行政協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局，衛生局自然就知道這件事，它就會進行懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：請問你是？"],["張司長秀鴛：我是保護服務司。"],["洪委員孟楷：保護服務司張司長？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，再麻煩你回來，我覺得這個其實並不衝突。"],["林次長靜儀：是，沒有錯，不衝突。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以一起通報，因為院內已經做出調查結果，所以通報性騷的主管機關是社會局，但是另外一個部分，醫師法的相關機關是衛生局嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：是，如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：照理講，未來如果有類似的案件，雖然我們都不希望再發生，但我們也要求因為這樣的態度問題，必須告訴所有的醫師們，如果好好的做事、好好的看診就不會有任何問題，但是不要有違反醫學倫理的行為，這是國人所關心的。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，你講的是兩軌，剛剛我們這邊講的是向社會局通報之後，我們會讓社會局這邊長出一個機制過去衛生局，我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在沒有嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：這個東西要長出來，但我說現行的狀況是……"],["洪委員孟楷：一個是現行的狀況，讓它從社會局連結到衛生局，另一個更簡單的狀況是當醫院做完內部調查之後就主動通報2個單位，一個是社會局、一個是衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們就是希望它這麼做啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣就可以啊！"],["林次長靜儀：這件事情就是兩軌、就是往下通報啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這是很簡單的事情，你是主管機關就直接告訴全臺灣的醫院，未來遇到這樣的事情應該要有一個SOP，以後的SOP就是要這樣做。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，今天已經有了決議，所以我們會再發一次函，通知地方的主管機關及各公會，落實這個機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：落實辦理機制。"],["林次長靜儀：是，當然也希望接下來懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到社會對於這些事件的關注，給予適當的懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，因為法令已經在那邊了，不能讓它沒有嚇阻的作用，或是讓外界認為有官官相護的感覺，好嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員、謝謝次長。","接續請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}}