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{\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 186.427, \"end\": 186.587, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 186.587, \"end\": 187.048, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"咧\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 187.048, \"end\": 187.148, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 187.148, \"end\": 187.228, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 187.228, \"end\": 187.388, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 187.388, \"end\": 187.408, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 187.408, \"end\": 187.548, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 187.548, \"end\": 187.748, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 187.748, \"end\": 187.928, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 187.928, \"end\": 188.109, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 188.109, \"end\": 188.129, \"score\": 0.452}]}, {\"start\": 188.749, \"end\": 215.898, \"text\": \"這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好 那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源 師資 人力等等會有差別嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 188.749, \"end\": 189.189, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 189.189, \"end\": 189.349, \"score\": 0.607}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 189.349, \"end\": 189.489, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 189.489, \"end\": 190.049, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 190.049, \"end\": 190.19, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 190.19, \"end\": 190.33, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 190.33, \"end\": 190.61, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 190.61, \"end\": 190.93, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 190.93, \"end\": 191.11, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 191.11, \"end\": 191.43, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 213.377, \"end\": 213.797, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 213.797, \"end\": 214.497, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 214.497, \"end\": 214.737, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 214.737, \"end\": 214.937, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 214.937, \"end\": 215.118, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 215.118, \"end\": 215.558, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 215.558, \"end\": 215.658, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 215.658, \"end\": 215.878, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 215.878, \"end\": 215.898, \"score\": 0.071}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 217.098, \"end\": 241.199, \"text\": \"如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,785 --> 00:00:07,419\n好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請\n\n2\n00:00:14,411 --> 00:00:22,314\n主委好主委好主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦\n\n3\n00:00:41,542 --> 00:01:09,622\n應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度\n\n4\n00:01:10,662 --> 00:01:29,538\n對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有\n\n5\n00:01:31,460 --> 00:01:54,937\n這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛\n\n6\n00:01:56,178 --> 00:02:18,013\n好那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法我就看原民會有沒有做到來主委我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別\n\n7\n00:02:19,349 --> 00:02:43,841\n追尋法規目的都可以簡答就好好不好簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好那我這樣問好了你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府\n\n8\n00:02:44,707 --> 00:03:08,129\n原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是\n\n9\n00:03:08,749 --> 00:03:35,898\n這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源師資人力等等會有差別嗎\n\n10\n00:03:37,098 --> 00:04:01,199\n如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標\n\n11\n00:04:02,694 --> 00:04:19,361\n我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中\n\n12\n00:04:20,521 --> 00:04:34,454\n對不對是重點學校的是這一排好你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人差一個人\n\n13\n00:04:43,382 --> 00:04:52,876\n那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師\n\n14\n00:04:54,059 --> 00:05:14,764\n這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢\n\n15\n00:05:17,064 --> 00:05:31,740\n過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證主委認證還是高級啊\n\n16\n00:05:33,304 --> 00:06:01,469\n對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊\n\n17\n00:06:02,089 --> 00:06:11,788\n這是正式教師的正式對我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:12,799 --> 00:06:34,238\n我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊\n\n19\n00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:57,990\n據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼\n\n20\n00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:04,453\n那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛\n\n21\n00:07:25,785 --> 00:07:43,723\n可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他\n\n22\n00:07:44,424 --> 00:07:58,512\n成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要\n\n23\n00:07:59,574 --> 00:08:26,825\n就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是\n\n24\n00:08:27,845 --> 00:08:45,109\n這些事情的主管機關對都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍\n\n25\n00:08:45,669 --> 00:09:06,117\n就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題老師的問題教育的問題\n\n26\n00:09:09,958 --> 00:09:22,825\n其實在教育部啊主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講反正最後錢也他出規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說欸我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校丹鳳國小大同國小\n\n27\n00:09:34,656 --> 00:09:50,651\n因為有補助今年可以開計劃案下一次少一個學生變99人沒有補助了這樣對嗎後年同學說又來了又多一個學生了現在101個又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡我想您的態度主委講一下吧\n\n28\n00:10:01,052 --> 00:10:16,273\n我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則\n\n29\n00:10:17,458 --> 00:10:33,710\n那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會\n\n30\n00:10:34,491 --> 00:10:52,899\n要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4785\t7419\t好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請\n14411\t22314\t主委好 主委好 主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦\n41542\t69622\t應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度\n70662\t89538\t對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有\n91460\t114937\t這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛\n116178\t138013\t好 那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法 我就看原民會有沒有做到來 主委 我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛 制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別\n139349\t163841\t追尋法規目的都可以 簡答就好 好不好 簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤 你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好 那我這樣問好了 你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府\n164707\t188129\t原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是\n188749\t215898\t這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好 那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源 師資 人力等等會有差別嗎\n217098\t241199\t如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標\n242694\t259361\t我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中\n260521\t274454\t對不對 是重點學校的是這一排好 你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊 然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人 差一個人\n283382\t292876\t那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師\n294059\t314764\t這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢\n317064\t331740\t過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好 那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證 主委認證還是高級啊\n333304\t361469\t對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊\n362089\t371788\t這是正式教師的正式對 我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼\n372799\t394238\t我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊\n396319\t417990\t據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼\n418590\t424453\t那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛\n445785\t463723\t可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他\n464424\t478512\t成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要\n479574\t506825\t就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是\n507845\t525109\t這些事情的主管機關對 都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍\n525669\t546117\t就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點 族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題 老師的問題 教育的問題\n549958\t562825\t其實在教育部啊 主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講 反正最後錢也他出 規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說 欸 我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校 丹鳳國小 大同國小\n574656\t590651\t因為有補助 今年可以開計劃案下一次 少一個學生變99人沒有補助了 這樣對嗎後年同學說 又來了 又多一個學生了現在101個 又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡 我想您的態度主委 講一下吧\n601052\t616273\t我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則\n617458\t633710\t那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會\n634491\t652899\t要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請\n主委好 主委好 主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦\n應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度\n對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有\n這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛\n好 那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法 我就看原民會有沒有做到來 主委 我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛 制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別\n追尋法規目的都可以 簡答就好 好不好 簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤 你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好 那我這樣問好了 你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府\n原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是\n這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好 那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源 師資 人力等等會有差別嗎\n如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標\n我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中\n對不對 是重點學校的是這一排好 你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊 然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人 差一個人\n那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師\n這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢\n過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好 那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證 主委認證還是高級啊\n對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊\n這是正式教師的正式對 我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼\n我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊\n據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼\n那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛\n可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他\n成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要\n就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是\n這些事情的主管機關對 都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍\n就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點 族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題 老師的問題 教育的問題\n其實在教育部啊 主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講 反正最後錢也他出 規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說 欸 我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校 丹鳳國小 大同國小\n因為有補助 今年可以開計劃案下一次 少一個學生變99人沒有補助了 這樣對嗎後年同學說 又來了 又多一個學生了現在101個 又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡 我想您的態度主委 講一下吧\n我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則\n那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會\n要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.785 --> 00:07.419\n好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請\n\n00:14.411 --> 00:22.314\n主委好主委好主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦\n\n00:41.542 --> 01:09.622\n應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度\n\n01:10.662 --> 01:29.538\n對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有\n\n01:31.460 --> 01:54.937\n這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛\n\n01:56.178 --> 02:18.013\n好那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法我就看原民會有沒有做到來主委我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別\n\n02:19.349 --> 02:43.841\n追尋法規目的都可以簡答就好好不好簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好那我這樣問好了你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府\n\n02:44.707 --> 03:08.129\n原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是\n\n03:08.749 --> 03:35.898\n這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源師資人力等等會有差別嗎\n\n03:37.098 --> 04:01.199\n如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標\n\n04:02.694 --> 04:19.361\n我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中\n\n04:20.521 --> 04:34.454\n對不對是重點學校的是這一排好你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人差一個人\n\n04:43.382 --> 04:52.876\n那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師\n\n04:54.059 --> 05:14.764\n這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢\n\n05:17.064 --> 05:31.740\n過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證主委認證還是高級啊\n\n05:33.304 --> 06:01.469\n對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊\n\n06:02.089 --> 06:11.788\n這是正式教師的正式對我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼\n\n06:12.799 --> 06:34.238\n我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊\n\n06:36.319 --> 06:57.990\n據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼\n\n06:58.590 --> 07:04.453\n那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛\n\n07:25.785 --> 07:43.723\n可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他\n\n07:44.424 --> 07:58.512\n成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要\n\n07:59.574 --> 08:26.825\n就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是\n\n08:27.845 --> 08:45.109\n這些事情的主管機關對都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍\n\n08:45.669 --> 09:06.117\n就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題老師的問題教育的問題\n\n09:09.958 --> 09:22.825\n其實在教育部啊主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講反正最後錢也他出規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說欸我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校丹鳳國小大同國小\n\n09:34.656 --> 09:50.651\n因為有補助今年可以開計劃案下一次少一個學生變99人沒有補助了這樣對嗎後年同學說又來了又多一個學生了現在101個又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡我想您的態度主委講一下吧\n\n10:01.052 --> 10:16.273\n我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則\n\n10:17.458 --> 10:33.710\n那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會\n\n10:34.491 --> 10:52.899\n要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.785,"end":7.419,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":14.411,"end":22.314,"text":"主委好 主委好 主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦"},{"start":41.542,"end":69.622,"text":"應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度"},{"start":70.662,"end":89.538,"text":"對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有"},{"start":91.46,"end":114.937,"text":"這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛"},{"start":116.178,"end":138.013,"text":"好 那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法 我就看原民會有沒有做到來 主委 我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛 制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別"},{"start":139.349,"end":163.841,"text":"追尋法規目的都可以 簡答就好 好不好 簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤 你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好 那我這樣問好了 你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府"},{"start":164.707,"end":188.129,"text":"原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是"},{"start":188.749,"end":215.898,"text":"這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好 那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源 師資 人力等等會有差別嗎"},{"start":217.098,"end":241.199,"text":"如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標"},{"start":242.694,"end":259.361,"text":"我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中"},{"start":260.521,"end":274.454,"text":"對不對 是重點學校的是這一排好 你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊 然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人 差一個人"},{"start":283.382,"end":292.876,"text":"那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師"},{"start":294.059,"end":314.764,"text":"這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢"},{"start":317.064,"end":331.74,"text":"過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好 那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證 主委認證還是高級啊"},{"start":333.304,"end":361.469,"text":"對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊"},{"start":362.089,"end":371.788,"text":"這是正式教師的正式對 我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼"},{"start":372.799,"end":394.238,"text":"我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊"},{"start":396.319,"end":417.99,"text":"據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼"},{"start":418.59,"end":424.453,"text":"那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛"},{"start":445.785,"end":463.723,"text":"可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他"},{"start":464.424,"end":478.512,"text":"成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要"},{"start":479.574,"end":506.825,"text":"就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是"},{"start":507.845,"end":525.109,"text":"這些事情的主管機關對 都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍"},{"start":525.669,"end":546.117,"text":"就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點 族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題 老師的問題 教育的問題"},{"start":549.958,"end":562.825,"text":"其實在教育部啊 主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講 反正最後錢也他出 規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說 欸 我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校 丹鳳國小 大同國小"},{"start":574.656,"end":590.651,"text":"因為有補助 今年可以開計劃案下一次 少一個學生變99人沒有補助了 這樣對嗎後年同學說 又來了 又多一個學生了現在101個 又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡 我想您的態度主委 講一下吧"},{"start":601.052,"end":616.273,"text":"我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則"},{"start":617.458,"end":633.71,"text":"那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會"},{"start":634.491,"end":652.899,"text":"要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委，有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。今天又是原民會的業務報告，每次看到原民會的業務報告，就覺得原民會真的很辛苦，在這樣一本小小的報告裡面，包山包海，從憲法層次的議題，到內政、到教育、到衛政、到經濟、到環境、到文化，還有外交耶！原民會包山包海，真的很辛苦！可以說有原住民的地方就要有原民會，主委同意嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也覺得很辛苦啦！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你不敢講辛苦。好啦！我知道資源有限，量能也有限，但就是在這樣的狀況下，我認為其實原民會最重要的工作是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度，對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度，其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做好，但是其他所有部會對於原民議題沒有概念，我覺得你要反向思考，其實原民會最重要的工作就是讓政府其他部會有文化的敏感度，同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題。主委，你同不同意這個看法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為這樣的話，你們是負責看別人怎麼做，對不對？如此一來，可以降低你的業務量壓力，同時讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要亂花預算。","我今天就用教育的題目來跟你討論，你既然同意剛剛的說法，我就看原民會有沒有做到。主委，原住民族教育法裡面創設了兩個教育的體系制度，一個是原住民族實驗教育學校，另一個是原住民重點學校，請問這兩個制度有什麼差別？遵循法規、目的都可以，簡答就好，問題在後面，簡答就好了。"],["陳處長坤昇：謝謝委員，原住民族實驗學校就是在原住民綜合學校裡面另外再做實驗教育的學校。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你確定要這樣回答嗎？我想應該不是這樣啦！那我這樣問好了，你覺得這個發動權在哪裡？這兩個制度的話……"],["陳處長坤昇：在地方政府。原住民重點學校是依據原住民族教育法所規定，當學生達到一定比例就是原住民重點學校。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這個是對的，沒有錯，原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛！只要在原住民的地區裡面，學生人數到達一定數字或者是比例，其實就是重點學校對不對？那實驗教育學校呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：是，實驗教育學校就是如果這個學校願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話，它……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以發動權是誰？是學校嘛！並不是地方政府，所以從發動權就有極大的差別了。好，那我來問你重點學校，以重點學校來說的話，它是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對？也就是原住民學生的人數，那它什麼時候會成為重點學校？什麼時候不成為重點學校？它的資源、師資、人力等等會有差別嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：如果是依照原住民教育法的規定，原住民重點學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，沒有錯，那整個原住民重點學校的主管機關是誰？"],["陳處長坤昇：教育部。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就這個問題你們有跟它討論過嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：其實過去很多委員都有關心這個問題，就是原住民學校原住民師資比例的問題，很多……"],["蘇委員巧慧：問題在哪裡？"],["陳處長坤昇：問題就是地方政府在進用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法符合這個目標。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得處長你這樣答不是重點，我來讓你看重點，我自己的選區在新北市，新北市這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民，很明顯從109年到111學年度，國小、國中、高中的重點學校是這一排。你再看從112年度到114年度，它的重點學校一樣嗎？我們以大同國小來比就好了，這三年因為它有超過100人，所以它就是重點學校，接下來變成99人，它就不是重點學校了，所以它的師資就要重新調整，然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊！怎麼會差1個人整個狀況就不一樣？包括丹鳳國小也是，一下子是重點學校，一下子不是重點學校，一下子又變成是重點學校了，那我到底要不要進用原住民籍的教師，這不才是問題所在嗎？對原住民孩子教育的延續沒有一貫性嘛，對不對？我再跟你說師資的部分好了，剛剛我有聽到原民會在講，你們對族語老師本來有族語認證的要求對不對？請問現在呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：過去是要高級，現在因為師資不足，我們跟教育部合作把他調整為中高級。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那一般教師呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：一般教師沒有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但新北市要來當原住民籍一般老師的族語認證還是要高級啊！要有高級啊！"],["陳處長坤昇：沒有，都一樣……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有啊，關於老師申請的資格，其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊！你看剛剛舉辦完的各縣市教師甄試簡章，各縣市大多是採分流制，將原住民考生歸為一組，你看像臺東縣，只要你是原住民籍，初試的總成績就可以加10%，但是新北市除了要原住民籍之外，還要通過原住民族語能力認證高級以上啊！"],["陳處長坤昇：這是正式教師的甄試。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我就是在跟你說一般教師、正式教師啊！臺東和新北為什麼可以有這種差距？"],["陳處長坤昇：因為這是各地方政府依照他們自己甄試的規定……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你的態度是什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：我的態度是認為這還是要尊重地方政府啦，因為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：什麼東西都尊重地方政府！我問你，你的態度是什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：因為一般教師他不是去擔任族語教師，他還是做一般教學課……"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是你剛剛說重點學校裡面要有族籍的老師，我現在又是重點學校了，結果我的老師還是招不到，對不對？"],["陳處長坤昇：一般正式教師到學校去並不是擔任族語教學工作，他還是做一般教學工作，所以他的語言能力相對應該不需要到高級，我的看法是這樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊，但是在教甄裡面就是規定新北市除了要原住民籍之外，還要通過原住民族語言高級認證，初試才可以加分啊！這是為什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：這是地方政府針對教師的需求……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看這不是鬼打牆嗎？這是繞圈圈啊！我們不是在討論誰可以變成老師，我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分，對不對？我們是在討論加分政策，在臺東的話，只要你是原住民身分就可以加分；在新北市的話，除了要有原住民身分，還要有族語認證嘛！可是我們在應徵的是一般老師，對不對？只是族語認證可不可以成為加分的條件嘛！"],["陳處長坤昇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們在討論的是這個，而這牽扯到另外一個問題是，一旦成為原住民重點學校，它就被要求要有族群老師，這種人很難找啊！而且有時候我這三年是重點學校，我就要老師，明年我又不是重點學校了，我可能就又不要了啊！一下要一下又不要就難上加難嘛！所以要進入新北市當有原住民籍身分的老師就比臺東少了一點加分的機會，這也是實話啊！我問的就是你的態度是什麼？我當然知道尊重地方政府是一個基本的態度，但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情。","回到今天的前提，我剛剛在說的是這些事情的主管機關都是教育部，但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過？我的意思是說，其實原住民的問題就像你寫的，方方面面、包山包海，所有在社會上生活的問題，因為我有原住民籍就通通可以有另外一個管道解決，或我會有另外的難處，所以我們需要成立原民會，我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上，你們其實可以思考另外一種方式，你用你的族群觀點、族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況，包括老師的問題、教育的問題，其實主管機關也是教育部啊！但是教育部可能沒有比你懂問題在哪裡，所以你去跟它講，反正最後錢也是它出，規定也是它做，你就是在旁邊看，然後說：我覺得這樣比較好喔！這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎？不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了，丹鳳國小、大同國小因為有補助，今年可以開計畫案，但是下次少一個學生變成99人，就沒有補助了，這樣對嗎？後年又多一個學生，變成101個又可以是重點學校了，這樣不是很奇怪嗎？所以今天在這裡請主委講一下您的態度吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教，我們會主動跟新北市政府溝通，希望他們的規定不要那麼硬，非得是99個、100個這樣的限制，我希望以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那其實是教育部的規定，我已經跟教育部討論過很多次了，但因為只有一個委員去跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整，因為他一調整是全國都會調整，那個涉及到資源、師資各方面，所以才說原民會要有態度，這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是很誠懇的建議，大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態，所以我是建議貴會可以調整執行業務的思維，多跟其他部會合作，其實可以事半功倍，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}}