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{\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 96.685, \"end\": 96.746, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"疫\", \"start\": 96.746, \"end\": 96.826, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 96.826, \"end\": 96.866, \"score\": 0.24}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 96.866, \"end\": 97.046, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 97.046, \"end\": 97.166, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"疫\", \"start\": 97.166, \"end\": 97.346, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 97.346, \"end\": 97.366, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 97.366, \"end\": 97.466, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.466, \"end\": 97.526, \"score\": 0.378}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.526, \"end\": 97.546, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 97.546, \"end\": 97.687, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 97.687, \"end\": 97.887, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 97.887, \"end\": 97.947, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 97.947, \"end\": 97.967, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 97.967, \"end\": 98.167, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 98.167, \"end\": 98.267, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 98.267, \"end\": 98.287, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 110.421, \"end\": 127.25, \"text\": \"我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 110.421, \"end\": 110.681, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 110.681, \"end\": 110.901, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 110.901, \"end\": 111.081, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 111.081, \"end\": 111.322, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 111.322, \"end\": 111.462, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 111.462, 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\"start\": 722.813, \"end\": 723.013, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 723.013, \"end\": 723.153, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 723.153, \"end\": 723.553, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 723.553, \"end\": 724.033, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 724.033, \"end\": 724.254, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 724.254, \"end\": 724.914, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 724.914, \"end\": 725.314, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 725.314, \"end\": 725.574, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 725.574, \"end\": 725.714, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 725.714, \"end\": 726.214, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 726.214, \"end\": 726.374, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 726.374, \"end\": 726.574, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 726.574, \"end\": 726.735, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 726.735, \"end\": 726.815, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 726.815, \"end\": 726.835, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 726.835, \"end\": 726.935, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.935, \"end\": 726.955, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.875, \"end\": 727.935, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 727.935, \"end\": 727.955, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.955, \"end\": 728.016, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 728.016, \"end\": 728.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 728.036, \"end\": 728.096, \"score\": 0.101}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 728.096, \"end\": 728.116, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,277 --> 00:00:05,863\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,627 --> 00:00:30,085\n陳委員好部長好您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場\n\n3\n00:00:36,531 --> 00:00:51,306\n然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐\n\n4\n00:00:52,126 --> 00:00:56,269\n那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法\n\n5\n00:01:15,020 --> 00:01:25,593\n那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎部長\n\n6\n00:01:35,504 --> 00:01:38,287\n報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放\n\n7\n00:01:50,421 --> 00:02:07,250\n我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來\n\n8\n00:02:08,311 --> 00:02:12,293\n部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決\n\n9\n00:02:36,624 --> 00:02:52,871\n所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛\n\n10\n00:02:53,531 --> 00:03:19,542\n報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗\n\n11\n00:03:22,503 --> 00:03:35,208\n那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是\n\n12\n00:03:45,012 --> 00:04:02,377\n然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與\n\n13\n00:04:07,519 --> 00:04:30,452\n還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜\n\n14\n00:04:31,152 --> 00:04:36,096\n部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHATGPT\n\n15\n00:04:49,867 --> 00:04:55,552\n因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHATGPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHATGPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHATGPT\n\n16\n00:05:10,546 --> 00:05:13,467\n我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長部長第一個CHATGP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權討論權違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程\n\n17\n00:05:38,914 --> 00:05:42,536\n如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案\n\n18\n00:05:56,806 --> 00:06:12,673\n也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHATGPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長\n\n19\n00:06:13,573 --> 00:06:36,882\n您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了\n\n20\n00:06:37,262 --> 00:06:55,391\n那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上\n\n21\n00:06:57,792 --> 00:07:05,019\n參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式\n\n22\n00:07:21,633 --> 00:07:39,912\n那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎\n\n23\n00:07:42,935 --> 00:08:01,183\n我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎\n\n24\n00:08:01,803 --> 00:08:10,511\n如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史\n\n25\n00:08:24,585 --> 00:08:31,691\n福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?\n\n26\n00:08:46,564 --> 00:09:06,178\n對這個已經都有確認都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議發言記錄還沒有全數確認時主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議\n\n27\n00:09:11,001 --> 00:09:34,162\n莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶\n\n28\n00:09:36,623 --> 00:09:48,308\n顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊\n\n29\n00:09:56,394 --> 00:10:15,109\n那怎麼辦呢你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次\n\n30\n00:10:15,469 --> 00:10:19,933\n這環評會議不是橡皮圖當不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲我就是要過目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎\n\n31\n00:10:41,192 --> 00:10:53,116\n那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場\n\n32\n00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:11,172\n但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料\n\n33\n00:11:12,766 --> 00:11:37,843\n這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦\n\n34\n00:11:39,263 --> 00:12:06,955\n參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會\n\n35\n00:12:07,875 --> 00:12:08,116\n好部長謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5277\t5863\t謝謝主席有請部長\n10627\t30085\t陳委員好部長好 您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場\n36531\t51306\t然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐\n52126\t56269\t那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法\n75020\t85593\t那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長\n95504\t98287\t報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放\n110421\t127250\t我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來\n128311\t132293\t部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決\n156624\t172871\t所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛\n173531\t199542\t報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗\n202503\t215208\t那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是\n225012\t242377\t然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與\n247519\t270452\t還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜\n271152\t276096\t部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHAT GPT\n289867\t295552\t因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT\n310546\t313467\t我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個CHAT GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程\n338914\t342536\t如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案\n356806\t372673\t也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長\n373573\t396882\t您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了\n397262\t415391\t那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上\n417792\t425019\t參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式\n441633\t459912\t那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎\n462935\t481183\t我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎\n481803\t490511\t如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史\n504585\t511691\t福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?\n526564\t546178\t對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議\n551001\t574162\t莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶\n576623\t588308\t顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊\n596394\t615109\t那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次\n615469\t619933\t這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處 你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎\n641192\t653116\t那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場\n663260\t671172\t但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料\n672766\t697843\t這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦\n699263\t726955\t參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會\n727875\t728116\t好 部長謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長\n陳委員好部長好 您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場\n然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐\n那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法\n那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長\n報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放\n我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來\n部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決\n所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛\n報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗\n那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是\n然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與\n還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜\n部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHAT GPT\n因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT\n我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個CHAT GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程\n如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案\n也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長\n您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了\n那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上\n參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式\n那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎\n我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎\n如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史\n福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?\n對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議\n莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶\n顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊\n那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次\n這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處 你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎\n那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場\n但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料\n這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦\n參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會\n好 部長謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.277 --> 00:05.863\n謝謝主席有請部長\n\n00:10.627 --> 00:30.085\n陳委員好部長好您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場\n\n00:36.531 --> 00:51.306\n然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐\n\n00:52.126 --> 00:56.269\n那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法\n\n01:15.020 --> 01:25.593\n那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎部長\n\n01:35.504 --> 01:38.287\n報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放\n\n01:50.421 --> 02:07.250\n我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來\n\n02:08.311 --> 02:12.293\n部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決\n\n02:36.624 --> 02:52.871\n所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛\n\n02:53.531 --> 03:19.542\n報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗\n\n03:22.503 --> 03:35.208\n那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是\n\n03:45.012 --> 04:02.377\n然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與\n\n04:07.519 --> 04:30.452\n還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜\n\n04:31.152 --> 04:36.096\n部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHATGPT\n\n04:49.867 --> 04:55.552\n因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHATGPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHATGPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHATGPT\n\n05:10.546 --> 05:13.467\n我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長部長第一個CHATGP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權討論權違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程\n\n05:38.914 --> 05:42.536\n如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案\n\n05:56.806 --> 06:12.673\n也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHATGPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長\n\n06:13.573 --> 06:36.882\n您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了\n\n06:37.262 --> 06:55.391\n那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上\n\n06:57.792 --> 07:05.019\n參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式\n\n07:21.633 --> 07:39.912\n那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎\n\n07:42.935 --> 08:01.183\n我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎\n\n08:01.803 --> 08:10.511\n如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史\n\n08:24.585 --> 08:31.691\n福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?\n\n08:46.564 --> 09:06.178\n對這個已經都有確認都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議發言記錄還沒有全數確認時主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議\n\n09:11.001 --> 09:34.162\n莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶\n\n09:36.623 --> 09:48.308\n顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊\n\n09:56.394 --> 10:15.109\n那怎麼辦呢你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次\n\n10:15.469 --> 10:19.933\n這環評會議不是橡皮圖當不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲我就是要過目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎\n\n10:41.192 --> 10:53.116\n那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場\n\n11:03.260 --> 11:11.172\n但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料\n\n11:12.766 --> 11:37.843\n這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦\n\n11:39.263 --> 12:06.955\n參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會\n\n12:07.875 --> 12:08.116\n好部長謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.277,"end":5.863,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":10.627,"end":30.085,"text":"陳委員好部長好 您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場"},{"start":36.531,"end":51.306,"text":"然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐"},{"start":52.126,"end":56.269,"text":"那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法"},{"start":75.02,"end":85.593,"text":"那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長"},{"start":95.504,"end":98.287,"text":"報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放"},{"start":110.421,"end":127.25,"text":"我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來"},{"start":128.311,"end":132.293,"text":"部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決"},{"start":156.624,"end":172.871,"text":"所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛"},{"start":173.531,"end":199.542,"text":"報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗"},{"start":202.503,"end":215.208,"text":"那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是"},{"start":225.012,"end":242.377,"text":"然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與"},{"start":247.519,"end":270.452,"text":"還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜"},{"start":271.152,"end":276.096,"text":"部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHAT GPT"},{"start":289.867,"end":295.552,"text":"因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT"},{"start":310.546,"end":313.467,"text":"我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個CHAT GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程"},{"start":338.914,"end":342.536,"text":"如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案"},{"start":356.806,"end":372.673,"text":"也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長"},{"start":373.573,"end":396.882,"text":"您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了"},{"start":397.262,"end":415.391,"text":"那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上"},{"start":417.792,"end":425.019,"text":"參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式"},{"start":441.633,"end":459.912,"text":"那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":462.935,"end":481.183,"text":"我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎"},{"start":481.803,"end":490.511,"text":"如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史"},{"start":504.585,"end":511.691,"text":"福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?"},{"start":526.564,"end":546.178,"text":"對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議"},{"start":551.001,"end":574.162,"text":"莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶"},{"start":576.623,"end":588.308,"text":"顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊"},{"start":596.394,"end":615.109,"text":"那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次"},{"start":615.469,"end":619.933,"text":"這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處 你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎"},{"start":641.192,"end":653.116,"text":"那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場"},{"start":663.26,"end":671.172,"text":"但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料"},{"start":672.766,"end":697.843,"text":"這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦"},{"start":699.263,"end":726.955,"text":"參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會"},{"start":727.875,"end":728.116,"text":"好 部長謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時20分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好。部長，其實在本委員會裡面，大家都認為您在質詢的態度上以及誠懇度，我們都覺得評價很高，所以我跟您討論的問題，我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分，以前公民團體是一開始就進場，從聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言階段的環節，他也能夠針對開發單位提出的回應做一些質疑，基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐，不管這個公民團體的意見後來有沒有被接納，但至少還有一個溝通跟互信的平臺，但是末代署長張子敬把這個程序取消掉，部長您現在的作法更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間去看螢幕，只有輪到民眾發言的環節才請他出來，而且還有1進1出的這種作法，而螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的時間是有落差的，還要等公民要求才去做改善。所以我想請教部長，過去行政機關引以為榮的就是環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制，現在一再限縮，這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，為了這個問題，我也調查了我們部從有環評會議開始到現在是怎麼去執行，當然當中有經過疫情的期間，疫情期間的確是1進1出，後來有稍微開放，本部成立之後，因為後棟有一個會議室，有18個位置，所以我們差不多前年的時候就以18位來進行，沒有什麼限制，可是因為今年年初發生四接環評事件的時候，我們裡面湧進了四、五十個人進來。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那天非常……因為您不在，你是叫次長來主持，那天我們黨3個委員都在，第一個，他臨時限制20個人發言；第二個，他沒有按照規定，前一週的資料沒有完整放上去，而且還缺了第6張核心資料；第三個，前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊、作假的行為，那個資料我也在之前就寄到環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：有，委員，這個我們正在調查當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為這些問題沒有解決，所以基本上大家覺得那天開會是不當的，所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做，這是我要跟部長講的，就是你不可以用這件事來整個否決公民參與，等於你是「倒退嚕」嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實是沒有的，因為第一個是一個人其實可以報告3分鐘，就像立法院對委員的質詢時間也有限制，我後來看了我們過去4次用這個新的辦法，這個新的辦法是環評委員建議的啦。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我強調的是參與，不是說關在一個房間，然後時間到就去叫他們出來，等一下我再跟部長講，我先跟你解釋四接案的狀況，因為你不在，但司長在，那天他非常地偏頗。部長，我看到這個新聞，你稍微看一下，就是本次會議旁聽發言維持5位民眾於101會議室，發言後採1進1出等等，其實看到這個新聞有點難過，因為環境部在前幾週有一個大甲溪光明電廠開發案限制公民團體進場，就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播，他連直播都不是喔，然後限制公民團體代表必須輪流發言，輪到發言才可以從小房間移到會議現場；上個禮拜更嚴重了，國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子，這個等一下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重，相同劇情又出現一次。請問部長，你認為現在環境部環評會議的公民參與還算是公民參與嗎？限縮成這個樣子，因為以前你們最驕傲的就是有公民參與，你認為現在還是公民參與嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個的確是公民參與，但是也要報告委員，我們現在還在找更好的方法之一，因為雖然我們有18個位置，之前也曾經擴展到四、五十個位置，但是就造成場內正反面意見的人在那邊無法溝通，而且變得非常吵雜。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我就跟你說因為四接案的時候我都在場，所以我告訴你發生什麼事，之前有些程序的問題、資料不實的問題，那個事前都處理了，但是那天照樣輾壓民意，17比0通過。部長，有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候，我不曉得您記不記得，您跟我說您很喜歡用AI及ChatGPT，因為上面會有非常清楚的答案，你還當場秀給我看ChatGPT跟你的解釋一樣，我今天想告訴部長，ChatGPT不認同環境部目前的作法是符合公民參與，我用剛才那個公視的新聞詢問ChatGPT，我問他說，環境部在這個環評會議上輪到發言才可以到場講3分鐘，這是公民參與嗎？報告部長，第一個，ChatGPT說這不符合理想的公民參與原則；第二個，它說你們這樣做很有問題，限制知情權、討論權，違反實質參與，缺乏程序正義及公共信任，公民參與應該完整參與整個過程，如果只能排隊發言，時間到了才去現場，根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會，這樣就是形式啊，公民失去公共政策的影響力，不僅不能有效釐清爭議，也不能提出替代方案，也沒辦法要求修正開發計畫或提出一些意見；第三個，ChatGPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與，而且有影響力的參與，環境部這樣的作法根本就是排除異議、排除不同的聲音啊！部長，您喜歡的ChatGPT這樣回答，您可以自己去試試看。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們現在正在進行環評總體檢，像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一，這是一個試行，我們過去4次環評會議，的確是用5個進去、1進1出的這種方式，我們希望能夠比較平和地來進行，委員剛剛講到有lag的情況，這個已經有改善了；另外，委員提到未來的改善，我們希望年底有一個更好的制度，這個制度不是我們來訂的，是透過我們一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實如果您更開放，回到公民參與，其實他們這邊的秩序討論，大家都可以好好協調，如人數等等，這個都可以協調，但是你真的不要再用……"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，我實際上參與的經驗是無法協調，因為正反的意見常常一半一半，兩邊有時候在那邊吵架……"],["陳委員昭姿：我所謂的協調是程序的部分，因為這樣的機制也沒有辦法實質全程參與，他只有在發言的時候才能去，這就是違反整個知情權、討論權、程序公義，您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：那天那個司儀的態度非常偏頗，他非常熱情地對待支持者的一方，但是對民團的態度非常不好。所以我想再確認一下，部長，如果您願意好好重新開啟開放公民環評進場機制的話，我可不可以確定一下，您是這樣的態度嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我是這個態度，但是在程序上如何讓它可以更順利、更平和……"],["陳委員昭姿：完整參與，就是一直到發言的時候，有可能讓他們全部參與嗎？就回到過去了，只是回到過去。"],["彭部長啓明：對，不過報告委員，因為我們只有18個位置，之前擠了四、五十個人。"],["陳委員昭姿：幾個人，我們想說至少有公民是可以全程參與，您支持這樣的作法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果是在一個很合理、符合會議規範，然後大家也願意互相聽取對方的意見……"],["陳委員昭姿：我覺得這很關鍵，您的承諾會決定我今天對於所有解凍案要不要通過，這非常重要。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是支持開放政府的，所以這個程序如果我們可以做到，我會儘量做到，但是因為以前的環評會議，我有特別找了以前的歷史，因為我……"],["陳委員昭姿：精神上您願意嘛……"],["彭部長啓明：精神上我願意。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我們看看技術上怎麼來克服嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你看這個，這裡面有好多委員，他們提出對於這一次國科會環評的意見，我想請問你基本原則，環評委員在會議中提出的意見是否應該如實記錄跟確認，這個原則對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這已經都有確認、都有紀錄。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。那這次科學園區的會議，發言紀錄還沒有全數確認時，主席就宣布散會，還說意見之後再彙整，然後再給環評委員會看，你覺得這樣合理嗎？他在結束前沒有做確認耶！他說我以後再整理給你們看。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是一個諮詢會議，他們提出的意見，國科會要提出一個詢答，才會進入實質上的審查會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你覺得這樣可以嗎？還沒有確認，就把會議結束掉了。部長，這次科學園區的會議，很多委員講了很重的話，你看，我用紅字標示了，寫得相當不好，問題很多，還有空間、需求也有問題，四十多年來問題很多，都要盤點啊！還有人講說只有放流水符合最低標準，根本是自欺欺人，這些都是委員講的話耶！"],["彭部長啓明：對啊，所以……"],["陳委員昭姿：顯然環評品質很有問題，為什麼這個專案工作小組還是直接通過，往下一關送，當作沒事？他們提出這麼多嚴肅的問題，這麼嚴重的問題，等於是行政機關在主導這個程序，輾壓專業意見，怎麼辦呢？你看這個作法。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是政策環評，是提供諮詢的會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是已經有這麼多問題的話，是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理？而不是直接就往下一關送，現在就是往下一關送啊！"],["彭部長啓明：他們如果沒有回答對，下一次的會議也是不會過的。"],["陳委員昭姿：不要說到下一次，因為部長你看，這很嚴重啦！這個環評會議不是橡皮圖章，不能說彙整一下，我再處理。不能當過場戲，不能說我就是要過，目標就是要過，所以那些話我就當作沒有講過。部長，我可不可以請你做一個承諾？這次的意見紀錄是不是有遺漏？你看，剛剛主席也是這樣問，有沒有遺漏或未經確認之處？你要不要檢討會議流程？譬如你還沒有做確認，可以結束會議嗎？是否建立透明機制？你在彙整過程當中，我怎麼知道你是怎麼彙整的，是拿有利的部分彙整，還是拿這部分來彙整？部長，不要黑箱，要公開嘛！這個原則……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個都有逐字稿，他們開發單位一定要據實作答，下次的會議過或不過，其實這些委員都在場。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你剛剛都回答到了，但是我可不可以問您，您是不是可以在會議結束之前把這些做個基本確認？不能說大家都散了，然後回去自己整理資料，當天主席就是這麼做的。部長，這個部分要檢討，好不好？你可不可以寫一份那次會議的檢討報告給我們？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們再檢討一下。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實是一個政策環評，它跟一般的環評不大一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，最後一張簡報──「我不同意你的意見，但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利」，這個是環保署時期你們貼在牆壁上的，你們也繼續帶到環境部。發言權只是基本的，參與才是真正的民主，部長，我希望你把這件事放在心上。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個牌子現在還掛在環境部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：還掛著，但是我也必須說，大家意見不一樣，但還是要聽對方的意見啦！我會再看看我們的機制，現在是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助到兩方，讓不一樣的意見可以在中間找到一個可以討論的地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：在任何團體、任何部門，我知道都會遇到這個問題，但是基本上我們要讓他有發言、有參與、有了解這些事情的機會。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長謝謝，主席謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論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