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\"start\": 952.254, \"end\": 952.354, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 952.354, \"end\": 952.514, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 952.514, \"end\": 952.855, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 952.855, \"end\": 953.355, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 953.355, \"end\": 953.696, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 953.696, \"end\": 954.056, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 954.056, \"end\": 954.396, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 954.396, \"end\": 954.737, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 954.737, \"end\": 955.117, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 955.117, \"end\": 955.478, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 955.478, \"end\": 955.638, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 955.638, \"end\": 955.798, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 955.798, \"end\": 955.998, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 955.998, \"end\": 956.158, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 956.158, \"end\": 956.439, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 956.439, \"end\": 956.979, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 956.979, \"end\": 957.38, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 957.38, \"end\": 957.5, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 957.5, \"end\": 958.001, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 958.001, \"end\": 958.181, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 958.181, \"end\": 958.201, \"score\": 0.999}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,152 --> 00:00:37,305\n來好謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好請次長廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好請好謝謝主席三位早安\n\n2\n00:00:39,356 --> 00:01:01,453\n我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算\n\n3\n00:01:02,754 --> 00:01:27,372\n那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪\n\n4\n00:01:28,192 --> 00:01:42,208\n那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條\n\n5\n00:01:46,982 --> 00:02:15,631\n這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊\n\n6\n00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:41,713\n然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了\n\n7\n00:02:44,017 --> 00:03:07,955\n委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是好謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題\n\n8\n00:03:09,136 --> 00:03:24,242\n一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院\n\n9\n00:03:26,523 --> 00:03:48,366\n我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情\n\n10\n00:03:49,664 --> 00:04:09,967\n請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣\n\n11\n00:04:11,852 --> 00:04:36,548\n是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰\n\n12\n00:04:39,691 --> 00:04:58,982\n請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話\n\n13\n00:05:02,964 --> 00:05:22,932\n你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常\n\n14\n00:05:23,672 --> 00:05:36,923\nNICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比\n\n15\n00:05:40,256 --> 00:06:01,944\n蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下\n\n16\n00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:15,518\n我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下\n\n17\n00:06:16,929 --> 00:06:41,183\n在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪不能動不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除也就是\n\n18\n00:06:42,403 --> 00:07:08,084\n說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是\n\n19\n00:07:10,543 --> 00:07:33,133\n立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了\n\n20\n00:07:35,546 --> 00:07:55,128\n行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據\n\n21\n00:07:56,269 --> 00:08:23,390\n依法來執行依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在\n\n22\n00:08:25,137 --> 00:08:41,214\n在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統\n\n23\n00:08:42,535 --> 00:09:07,701\n幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些\n\n24\n00:09:08,901 --> 00:09:31,438\n並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下\n\n25\n00:09:37,728 --> 00:09:48,441\n因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府\n\n26\n00:09:49,707 --> 00:10:07,258\n他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個\n\n27\n00:10:08,619 --> 00:10:30,509\n話不是這樣講啦更何況借錢不是不用還還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這這個不對啦不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平\n\n28\n00:10:32,423 --> 00:10:56,565\n所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個\n\n29\n00:10:57,628 --> 00:11:25,070\n你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個\n\n30\n00:11:28,035 --> 00:11:54,299\n在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了\n\n31\n00:11:54,699 --> 00:12:16,207\n那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反\n\n32\n00:12:17,949 --> 00:12:24,409\n選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了就我們發現\n\n33\n00:12:25,612 --> 00:12:52,830\n哇原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢\n\n34\n00:12:54,543 --> 00:13:10,172\n但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是\n\n35\n00:13:11,328 --> 00:13:32,207\n行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣\n\n36\n00:13:33,627 --> 00:13:57,295\n秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種\n\n37\n00:13:58,815 --> 00:14:27,332\n中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶\n\n38\n00:14:28,937 --> 00:14:56,491\n殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路\n\n39\n00:14:57,659 --> 00:15:15,309\n我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長廳長副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎\n\n40\n00:15:16,650 --> 00:15:44,746\n有沒有我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且\n\n41\n00:15:45,987 --> 00:15:58,201\n刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好謝謝各位謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18152\t37305\t來好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安\n39356\t61453\t我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算\n62754\t87372\t那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪\n88192\t102208\t那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條\n106982\t135631\t這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊\n136750\t161713\t然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了\n164017\t187955\t委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題\n189136\t204242\t一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院\n206523\t228366\t我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情\n229664\t249967\t請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣\n251852\t276548\t是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰\n279691\t298982\t請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話\n302964\t322932\t你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常\n323672\t336923\tNICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比\n340256\t361944\t蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下\n364010\t375518\t我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下\n376929\t401183\t在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是\n402403\t428084\t說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是\n430543\t453133\t立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了\n455546\t475128\t行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據\n476269\t503390\t依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在\n505137\t521214\t在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統\n522535\t547701\t幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些\n548901\t571438\t並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下\n577728\t588441\t因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府\n589707\t607258\t他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個\n608619\t630509\t話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這 這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平\n632423\t656565\t所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個\n657628\t685070\t你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個\n688035\t714299\t在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了\n714699\t736207\t那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反\n737949\t744409\t選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了 就我們發現\n745612\t772830\t哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢\n774543\t790172\t但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是\n791328\t812207\t行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣\n813627\t837295\t秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種\n838815\t867332\t中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶\n868937\t896491\t殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路\n897659\t915309\t我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長 廳長 副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎\n916650\t944746\t有沒有 我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且\n945987\t958201\t刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席\n","txt":"來好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安\n我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算\n那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪\n那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條\n這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊\n然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了\n委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題\n一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院\n我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情\n請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣\n是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰\n請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話\n你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常\nNICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比\n蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下\n我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下\n在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是\n說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是\n立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了\n行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據\n依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在\n在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統\n幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些\n並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下\n因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府\n他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個\n話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這 這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平\n所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個\n你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個\n在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了\n那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反\n選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了 就我們發現\n哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢\n但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是\n行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣\n秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種\n中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶\n殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路\n我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長 廳長 副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎\n有沒有 我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且\n刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.152 --> 00:37.305\n來好謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好請次長廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好請好謝謝主席三位早安\n\n00:39.356 --> 01:01.453\n我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算\n\n01:02.754 --> 01:27.372\n那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪\n\n01:28.192 --> 01:42.208\n那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條\n\n01:46.982 --> 02:15.631\n這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊\n\n02:16.750 --> 02:41.713\n然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了\n\n02:44.017 --> 03:07.955\n委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是好謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題\n\n03:09.136 --> 03:24.242\n一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院\n\n03:26.523 --> 03:48.366\n我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情\n\n03:49.664 --> 04:09.967\n請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣\n\n04:11.852 --> 04:36.548\n是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰\n\n04:39.691 --> 04:58.982\n請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話\n\n05:02.964 --> 05:22.932\n你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常\n\n05:23.672 --> 05:36.923\nNICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比\n\n05:40.256 --> 06:01.944\n蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下\n\n06:04.010 --> 06:15.518\n我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下\n\n06:16.929 --> 06:41.183\n在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪不能動不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除也就是\n\n06:42.403 --> 07:08.084\n說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是\n\n07:10.543 --> 07:33.133\n立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了\n\n07:35.546 --> 07:55.128\n行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據\n\n07:56.269 --> 08:23.390\n依法來執行依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在\n\n08:25.137 --> 08:41.214\n在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統\n\n08:42.535 --> 09:07.701\n幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些\n\n09:08.901 --> 09:31.438\n並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下\n\n09:37.728 --> 09:48.441\n因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府\n\n09:49.707 --> 10:07.258\n他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個\n\n10:08.619 --> 10:30.509\n話不是這樣講啦更何況借錢不是不用還還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這這個不對啦不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平\n\n10:32.423 --> 10:56.565\n所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個\n\n10:57.628 --> 11:25.070\n你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個\n\n11:28.035 --> 11:54.299\n在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了\n\n11:54.699 --> 12:16.207\n那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反\n\n12:17.949 --> 12:24.409\n選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了就我們發現\n\n12:25.612 --> 12:52.830\n哇原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢\n\n12:54.543 --> 13:10.172\n但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是\n\n13:11.328 --> 13:32.207\n行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣\n\n13:33.627 --> 13:57.295\n秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種\n\n13:58.815 --> 14:27.332\n中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶\n\n14:28.937 --> 14:56.491\n殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路\n\n14:57.659 --> 15:15.309\n我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長廳長副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎\n\n15:16.650 --> 15:44.746\n有沒有我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且\n\n15:45.987 --> 15:58.201\n刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好謝謝各位謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.152,"end":37.305,"text":"來好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安"},{"start":39.356,"end":61.453,"text":"我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算"},{"start":62.754,"end":87.372,"text":"那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪"},{"start":88.192,"end":102.208,"text":"那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條"},{"start":106.982,"end":135.631,"text":"這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊"},{"start":136.75,"end":161.713,"text":"然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了"},{"start":164.017,"end":187.955,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題"},{"start":189.136,"end":204.242,"text":"一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院"},{"start":206.523,"end":228.366,"text":"我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情"},{"start":229.664,"end":249.967,"text":"請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣"},{"start":251.852,"end":276.548,"text":"是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰"},{"start":279.691,"end":298.982,"text":"請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話"},{"start":302.964,"end":322.932,"text":"你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常"},{"start":323.672,"end":336.923,"text":"NICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比"},{"start":340.256,"end":361.944,"text":"蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下"},{"start":364.01,"end":375.518,"text":"我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下"},{"start":376.929,"end":401.183,"text":"在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是"},{"start":402.403,"end":428.084,"text":"說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是"},{"start":430.543,"end":453.133,"text":"立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了"},{"start":455.546,"end":475.128,"text":"行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據"},{"start":476.269,"end":503.39,"text":"依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在"},{"start":505.137,"end":521.214,"text":"在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統"},{"start":522.535,"end":547.701,"text":"幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些"},{"start":548.901,"end":571.438,"text":"並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下"},{"start":577.728,"end":588.441,"text":"因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府"},{"start":589.707,"end":607.258,"text":"他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個"},{"start":608.619,"end":630.509,"text":"話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這 這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平"},{"start":632.423,"end":656.565,"text":"所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個"},{"start":657.628,"end":685.07,"text":"你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個"},{"start":688.035,"end":714.299,"text":"在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了"},{"start":714.699,"end":736.207,"text":"那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反"},{"start":737.949,"end":744.409,"text":"選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了 就我們發現"},{"start":745.612,"end":772.83,"text":"哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢"},{"start":774.543,"end":790.172,"text":"但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是"},{"start":791.328,"end":812.207,"text":"行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣"},{"start":813.627,"end":837.295,"text":"秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種"},{"start":838.815,"end":867.332,"text":"中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶"},{"start":868.937,"end":896.491,"text":"殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路"},{"start":897.659,"end":915.309,"text":"我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長 廳長 副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎"},{"start":916.65,"end":944.746,"text":"有沒有 我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且"},{"start":945.987,"end":958.201,"text":"刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時42分）謝謝主席，麻煩法務部次長、憲法法庭書記廳廳長，還有副秘。"],["主席（王委員義川代）：請次長、廳長跟司法院副秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席，三位早安。我先請教一下副秘還有廳長，有關預算法第二條經過立法程序公布的稱法定預算，我們看到釋字第520號提到所謂的法定預算有一定效力，行政機關必須依法執行預算，並沒有拒絕執行的法律依據，否則就不符合依法行政的條件。我也再補充一下，這次一般性補助款2,501億，中央已經公布了，而且立法院三讀通過，也都沒有一毛錢被刪，我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪，也就是地方的一般性補助款是法定預算，而且一毛沒有刪。我想請教司法院是不是認同行政機關要受到法定預算的拘束，應該要依法執行預算案？請問一下司法院，就我剛提到的釋字及預算法第二條。"],["王副秘書長梅英：依這個釋字的解釋意思是這樣子的。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，釋字解釋是這樣，他們的協同意見書也非常清楚，釋字第520號的大法官協同意見書說明得非常清楚，行政機關必須要依法執行，並沒有可以拒絕執行的法律上依據，我剛才說的是我國的法制。","我再請教一下，如果中央不跟地方溝通，動不動就不給你一般性補助款，這時候地方可不可以聲請暫時性權利保護，因為這是屬於一般性的給付之訴？我想請教一下，當這個狀況發生時，可不可以提出暫時性權利保護，請求中央依法撥給地方補助款，是不是可以？"],["楊廳長皓清：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：請說。"],["楊廳長皓清：我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話，這部分在憲法訴訟法是有解決的機制，至於說……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個我想標的上面應該都沒有問題，這個是可以提出，訴之利益……"],["楊廳長皓清：但是剛剛提到的，如果涉及到暫時處分的話，依照憲訴法第四十三條，前提是要先有聲請和繫屬。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我再請教司法院一個問題，一個經過立法院三讀通過且經總統公布的案子，不管是什麼案，在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前，請問一下，法律效力會不會受到影響？請教司法院。"],["楊廳長皓清：我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者為暫時處分之前，就是依法產生它應有的效力。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。這段時間，我跟非常多行政機關的人在面對的時候，他們常跟我嗆一句說這個將來可能會被宣告違憲，或是行政院會提起憲法判決。我們都應該知道一件事情，請公務員能夠理解一件事情，一個法律如果經過三讀通過且經總統公布，這個法律就是生效了，除非他日遭到大法官以憲判宣告違憲，在被宣告違憲之前，它都是一個生效的法律，我們都必須依法行政，必須遵守。請問一下司法院，是不是這樣？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我們再回過頭來，我想請教一下法務部次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我國刑法第一百二十九條是抑留剋扣罪，貪污治罪條例第六條第一項第一款也有，所以公務員對於明知道依法、依職務上應該發給的款項而抑留不發或者是剋扣，這個會觸法。請教次長，我國有沒有這樣的法律規定？"],["黃次長世杰：是，法條……"],["吳委員宗憲：我先不涵攝到目前國家發生的事實，我只請教次長，有無這個法律規定？"],["黃次長世杰：有，就如同委員的簡報資料上面所記載的，就是有這些法條。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我在這邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告，如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話，你如果明知這個狀況，這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污治罪條例的規範，所以公務員依法應該發給的款項，就要依法去處理，不能夠不處理。","我在這邊再跟各位報告一下，其實主計長人很好，非常nice、溫和的一個人，他主掌著主計總處，他明明知道今年中央總預算拿到的是史上最高的預算，最高喔，本來編列的支出高達3.13兆，這個錢比蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算高了16%喔，所以我們政府這一次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政時候多了一千多億，比馬英九執政的時候多了1兆，並不是沒有錢啦，這個我必須要講一下。","我再講一個，我們來看一下這個圓餅圖，這是民進黨自己製作出來的圓餅圖，說是惡刪預算比例圖。我請各位看一下，灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說不能刪、不能凍、不會改變的預算，包括這一次的地方計畫型補助及中央一般性補助款，還有中央的法定支出，這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔。民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的部分，上面有標註藍白提案刪除，也就是說，民進黨都告訴你們了，一般性補助款是不能夠變動的，它是不能夠變動的，這個圖在網路上到現在都還找得到。其實一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪啊！三讀通過一毛都沒有刪，我這邊跟各位先補充這個問題啦。所以，被刪除的11個項目，就剛剛粉紅色的那個部分，被刪除的11個項目是立法委員覺得中央政府的國外旅費、電費、媒體宣傳費等等非必要、非優先的費用有一些浮濫或消費性的支出，其實刪的是這個，並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款，一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪，這個我先跟各位報告。","我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了，行政機關帶頭說謊說的越來越誇張，所以我在這邊必須要依法、依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣。我不是找中央政府麻煩，我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上的規定所講的，所以我覺得主計總處，對於我剛剛所說的這些東西，還是要依法來執行、依法來行政，不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣。更何況我們的主計長曾在臺南當過主計處處長，在地方主計處服務過嘛，他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係，以及我國廢省之後預算上的配比問題，他應該要很清楚這些事情啊！就是因為廢省之後配比發生了狀況，所以民進黨在野的時候提出要修改財劃法，就是這些問題嘛！當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊，所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣，而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整，過往的幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊，我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動這一塊。","再來，我再跟各位報告一件事情，其實一般性補助款它算是救命錢，這個是地方的教育以及給予那些低收入、弱勢團體的一些補助款項。主席，不好意思，再給我一點點時間。所以這並不是富人需要用的錢，這個是社會上很多人需要用到的，像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢，所以你去砍這個東西不好吧！","我再舉國內兩個負債比最高的縣市──苗栗跟宜蘭，他們負債很高，像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85萬的公共債務，我們再回過頭去想一下，因為行政院發言人說地方可以去舉債啊，可是我們現在身為立委，我們捨得我們縣市政府讓子孫的負債越來越高嗎？譬如說苗栗平均每人負擔公共債務已經6.5萬了，我希望它越來越高，苗栗的子子孫孫、宜蘭的子子孫孫的負債比例越來越高嗎？我覺得我們都捨不得吧！所以中央一句話說地方可以去借錢、可以舉債，我覺得話不是這樣講啦，更何況借錢不是不用還，還要負擔利息喔，這個不是很多縣市負擔得了！也有負債還OK的，像屏東是沒有負債的，但是大家都統一刪25%到27%，我覺得這這個不對啦，不能搞這種齊頭式的玩法，這其實對地方上是很不公平的。","所以我跟各位說，我自己的感覺是這樣啦，立法院在監督中央政府，今天不管誰執政、誰在野，反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府，當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好，刪了你的預算的時候，結果你竟然轉去刪地方的錢，這個感覺是什麼？就好像你去一個地方上班，老闆跟你講好一個月5萬塊，依照勞基法，他就必須要一個月給你5萬塊，結果他跟他老婆吵架，他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉了，他跑來跟你說每個月該給你的5萬塊只能給你4萬，變成這樣了，他被砍的是別個項目的錢，結果他來告訴你，依法該給你的錢他不給了，我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛，請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦。","我要再一次重申，在野黨立委並沒有砍到地方的一般性補助款，這段時間，我覺得我們遇到很多人，你看這段時間，其實一開始很多人說藍白亂刪預算，什麼租屋補貼、什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了，我走在路上遇到罷團拿個麥克風在那邊講，都是在講這一套，但最近比較少人講了，我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦，因為越來越透明大家就知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛！我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長，因為他們說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等，後來發現根本沒有刪，這個就是不對的。另外，你為了要大罷免而去講這個，那是違反選罷法第一百零四條第一項，現在罷團沒有在講這個東西了，結果我們發現，哇，原來中央的這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪，真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰？竟然是行政院，行政院不給地方一般性補助款，這些錢就是用在地方，是給弱勢團體的小孩子、給年輕人的救命錢，結果真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員，反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢，真正刪的是這些錢，當初一堆造謠的那些，說藍白亂刪預算導致地方上年輕人的錢都沒有了、弱勢團體的錢都沒有了。結果這些現在都不是真的，真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼？就是行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款，而一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利、教育等等的錢，所以我們看到原來亂刪預算的是行政院！","最後30秒，我提一個，既然這樣子的話，我在這邊就一樣秉持著法律人的天性，依法告發抑留剋扣罪，但我不知道是誰決定的，中央政府裡面不知道是誰決定的，是不是主計總處決定的我不知道，我們就告發抑留剋扣罪啊，請法務部去請檢察官、調查局趕快下去處理。既然調查局對於幽靈連署這種中選會可以依法剔除的東西都覺得傷害國家很重，破壞民主制度，都可以這樣去全國大搜索、大羈押，OK，沒關係，違法你去查，但是今天這個更嚴重，因為這個抑留剋扣達到636億，而且是全臺灣受害，而且受害的人是窮人、是低收入戶，不是富人喔，因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢，是教育、低收入戶、殘障者需要用的錢，既然這麼嚴重，是不是我們應該要……我不敢說比什麼查幽靈連署更用力啦，就跟查那些案子一樣用力，或八成、五成都好啦，麻煩檢察官、調查官下去查抑留剋扣罪，麻煩一下，我今天在這邊依法提出告發，請去查明是誰、哪一個公務員在幹這個事情？是誰不給我們這些辛苦的年輕人一條活路？","我剛剛講的東西，我剛剛所做的法律上一整套推理的邏輯，我想次長、廳長、副秘都是法律人，都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼，清清楚楚，從憲法到地方法規的論述，我清清楚楚，我認為這個就是違法不發給，而這是屬於刑法的抑留剋扣罪。請問次長有要補充嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：沒有，我們尊重委員的意見。不過也補充說明，因為關於刪減預算的相關程序以及實質憲法上的爭議，現在已經繫屬於憲法法庭審理中，我們都尊重一切判斷的結果。謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝，我也希望最終是一場誤會，真的要發給，我在這邊跟各位以及現場所有人報告，我的個性真的不是追究誰的責任，而是因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢，而且三讀的時候，在立法院一毛都沒有刪，就是覈實的發給各個地方、各個縣市，不管是哪一個政黨執政的縣市，因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢。謝謝各位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}}