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\"所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 645.558, \"end\": 645.678, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 645.678, \"end\": 645.958, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 645.958, \"end\": 646.138, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 646.138, \"end\": 646.358, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 646.358, \"end\": 646.698, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 646.698, \"end\": 647.118, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 647.118, \"end\": 647.399, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 647.399, \"end\": 647.599, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 647.599, \"end\": 647.739, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 647.739, \"end\": 647.979, 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{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 778.163, \"end\": 778.363, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 778.363, \"end\": 778.383, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 780.339, \"end\": 780.582, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 780.582, \"end\": 780.602, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,310 --> 00:00:02,531\n陳委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,178 --> 00:00:40,876\n部長上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現哇晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後\n\n3\n00:00:42,279 --> 00:01:08,240\n5月225月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢\n\n4\n00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:31,118\n報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書\n\n5\n00:01:31,998 --> 00:02:00,857\n其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比\n\n6\n00:02:01,778 --> 00:02:29,246\n根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題\n\n7\n00:02:30,106 --> 00:02:40,766\n但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用\n\n8\n00:02:42,112 --> 00:03:03,411\n說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據\n\n9\n00:03:05,252 --> 00:03:13,715\n剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQAir的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污\n\n10\n00:03:25,117 --> 00:03:51,887\n好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40%流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5\n\n11\n00:03:53,327 --> 00:04:13,737\n報告委員第一個IQAir它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本韓國先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器\n\n12\n00:04:14,717 --> 00:04:28,453\n對不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值\n\n13\n00:04:29,794 --> 00:04:51,710\n第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5\n\n14\n00:04:54,272 --> 00:05:21,118\n大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變\n\n15\n00:05:22,211 --> 00:05:42,324\n我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣\n\n16\n00:05:43,464 --> 00:06:03,919\n所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析\n\n17\n00:06:04,940 --> 00:06:10,843\n他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來\n\n18\n00:06:22,509 --> 00:06:28,512\n所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的PrematureDeath這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露\n\n19\n00:06:45,302 --> 00:07:02,121\n這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經\n\n20\n00:07:06,075 --> 00:07:21,656\n偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊\n\n21\n00:07:23,317 --> 00:07:43,281\n我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實\n\n22\n00:07:46,522 --> 00:08:03,205\n可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源\n\n23\n00:08:03,868 --> 00:08:28,383\n但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛增加慢性咽喉炎\n\n24\n00:08:33,818 --> 00:09:01,314\n其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定\n\n25\n00:09:01,374 --> 00:09:29,079\n其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一\n\n26\n00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:46,687\n可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲\n\n27\n00:09:55,491 --> 00:10:17,579\n是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊\n\n28\n00:10:18,599 --> 00:10:32,829\n我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民\n\n29\n00:10:45,558 --> 00:11:13,507\n所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生\n\n30\n00:11:14,347 --> 00:11:34,459\n我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標\n\n31\n00:11:35,239 --> 00:11:54,032\n最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸\n\n32\n00:11:57,634 --> 00:12:04,596\n可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者\n\n33\n00:12:13,379 --> 00:12:28,270\n那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎\n\n34\n00:12:31,532 --> 00:12:58,383\n對包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝謝謝主席\n\n35\n00:13:00,339 --> 00:13:00,602\n好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2310\t2531\t陳委員好\n16178\t40876\t部長 上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現 哇 晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後\n42279\t68240\t5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢\n70050\t91118\t報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書\n91998\t120857\t其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比\n121778\t149246\t根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題\n150106\t160766\t但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用\n162112\t183411\t說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據\n185252\t193715\t剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污\n205117\t231887\t好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5\n233327\t253737\t報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本 韓國 先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器\n254717\t268453\t對 不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值\n269794\t291710\t第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5\n294272\t321118\t大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變\n322211\t342324\t我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣\n343464\t363919\t所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析\n364940\t370843\t他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來\n382509\t388512\t所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露\n405302\t422121\t這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經\n426075\t441656\t偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊\n443317\t463281\t我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實\n466522\t483205\t可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源\n483868\t508383\t但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎\n513818\t541314\t其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定\n541374\t569079\t其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一\n569679\t586687\t可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲\n595491\t617579\t是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊\n618599\t632829\t我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民\n645558\t673507\t所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生\n674347\t694459\t我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標\n695239\t714032\t最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸\n717634\t724596\t可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者\n733379\t748270\t那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎\n751532\t778383\t對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席\n780339\t780602\t好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長\n","txt":"陳委員好\n部長 上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現 哇 晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後\n5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢\n報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書\n其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比\n根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題\n但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用\n說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據\n剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污\n好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5\n報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本 韓國 先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器\n對 不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值\n第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5\n大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變\n我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣\n所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析\n他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來\n所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露\n這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經\n偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊\n我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實\n可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源\n但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎\n其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定\n其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一\n可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲\n是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊\n我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民\n所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生\n我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標\n最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸\n可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者\n那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎\n對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席\n好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.310 --> 00:02.531\n陳委員好\n\n00:16.178 --> 00:40.876\n部長上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現哇晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後\n\n00:42.279 --> 01:08.240\n5月225月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢\n\n01:10.050 --> 01:31.118\n報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書\n\n01:31.998 --> 02:00.857\n其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比\n\n02:01.778 --> 02:29.246\n根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題\n\n02:30.106 --> 02:40.766\n但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用\n\n02:42.112 --> 03:03.411\n說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據\n\n03:05.252 --> 03:13.715\n剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQAir的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污\n\n03:25.117 --> 03:51.887\n好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40%流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5\n\n03:53.327 --> 04:13.737\n報告委員第一個IQAir它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本韓國先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器\n\n04:14.717 --> 04:28.453\n對不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值\n\n04:29.794 --> 04:51.710\n第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5\n\n04:54.272 --> 05:21.118\n大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變\n\n05:22.211 --> 05:42.324\n我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣\n\n05:43.464 --> 06:03.919\n所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析\n\n06:04.940 --> 06:10.843\n他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來\n\n06:22.509 --> 06:28.512\n所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的PrematureDeath這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露\n\n06:45.302 --> 07:02.121\n這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經\n\n07:06.075 --> 07:21.656\n偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊\n\n07:23.317 --> 07:43.281\n我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實\n\n07:46.522 --> 08:03.205\n可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源\n\n08:03.868 --> 08:28.383\n但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛增加慢性咽喉炎\n\n08:33.818 --> 09:01.314\n其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定\n\n09:01.374 --> 09:29.079\n其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一\n\n09:29.679 --> 09:46.687\n可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲\n\n09:55.491 --> 10:17.579\n是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊\n\n10:18.599 --> 10:32.829\n我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民\n\n10:45.558 --> 11:13.507\n所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生\n\n11:14.347 --> 11:34.459\n我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標\n\n11:35.239 --> 11:54.032\n最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸\n\n11:57.634 --> 12:04.596\n可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者\n\n12:13.379 --> 12:28.270\n那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎\n\n12:31.532 --> 12:58.383\n對包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝謝謝主席\n\n13:00.339 --> 13:00.602\n好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.31,"end":2.531,"text":"陳委員好"},{"start":16.178,"end":40.876,"text":"部長 上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現 哇 晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後"},{"start":42.279,"end":68.24,"text":"5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢"},{"start":70.05,"end":91.118,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書"},{"start":91.998,"end":120.857,"text":"其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比"},{"start":121.778,"end":149.246,"text":"根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題"},{"start":150.106,"end":160.766,"text":"但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用"},{"start":162.112,"end":183.411,"text":"說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據"},{"start":185.252,"end":193.715,"text":"剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污"},{"start":205.117,"end":231.887,"text":"好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5"},{"start":233.327,"end":253.737,"text":"報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本 韓國 先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器"},{"start":254.717,"end":268.453,"text":"對 不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值"},{"start":269.794,"end":291.71,"text":"第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5"},{"start":294.272,"end":321.118,"text":"大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變"},{"start":322.211,"end":342.324,"text":"我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣"},{"start":343.464,"end":363.919,"text":"所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析"},{"start":364.94,"end":370.843,"text":"他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來"},{"start":382.509,"end":388.512,"text":"所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露"},{"start":405.302,"end":422.121,"text":"這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經"},{"start":426.075,"end":441.656,"text":"偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊"},{"start":443.317,"end":463.281,"text":"我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實"},{"start":466.522,"end":483.205,"text":"可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源"},{"start":483.868,"end":508.383,"text":"但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎"},{"start":513.818,"end":541.314,"text":"其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定"},{"start":541.374,"end":569.079,"text":"其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一"},{"start":569.679,"end":586.687,"text":"可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲"},{"start":595.491,"end":617.579,"text":"是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊"},{"start":618.599,"end":632.829,"text":"我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民"},{"start":645.558,"end":673.507,"text":"所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生"},{"start":674.347,"end":694.459,"text":"我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標"},{"start":695.239,"end":714.032,"text":"最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸"},{"start":717.634,"end":724.596,"text":"可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者"},{"start":733.379,"end":748.27,"text":"那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎"},{"start":751.532,"end":778.383,"text":"對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":780.339,"end":780.602,"text":"好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時46分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，上禮拜5月17日我們正式進入了非核家園，有心的網友上網看就會發現哇！晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒，燒到95%，我剛好這個周末是跑高雄的行程，所以到大寮、林園跟這些鄉親聊天，發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17日非核家園上路之後，5月22日、5月23日就馬上有吹哨者爆料興達電廠又偷偷的在開機、燒煤。對比上禮拜你跟大家講的，臺灣的空氣品質只輸日本，然後請大家少用「用肺發電」的這個詞，其實高雄人也會想問你，如果不是用肺發電，你現在覺得如何解讀我們是用什麼發電呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我上禮拜在行政院的記者會有特別解釋我們的空污從103年全臺平均的24微克，降到去年的12.8，其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源，而且還在增加當中，還有很多生活的。加上我們前一陣子有一個空品政策白皮書，其實裡面有很多的內容，所以我是特別強調，當然我們希望用煤發電能夠越少越好，但是其實各種空污的減量也要一起來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我想問一下，您的數據是不是把臺灣好幾個觀測站去平均？因為對高雄人來說，你拿高雄的、臺中的數據去跟臺東的數據平均，最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本、香港來比，根本就不合理，也不公平啊！"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們拿到日本或是韓國，我們都是拿國家的報告，他們國家也都會將所有站做一個平均，當然我們裡面也有東部的站，東部的站PM2.5大概8或9，的確是比較低。基本上每一個國家用整個……因為我們談的是整個國家的平均，不是說一個站，我當然知道的確高雄PM2.5平均還有到15左右，所以我也知道這個問題，但是我們講的是國家的一個政策，就很像我們國人的GDP平均是多少，但是有人賺得很多，可是有人賺得比較少。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，大家覺得你也不用說服不要再講「用肺發電」或者是少講「用肺發電」，因為自從非核家園上路了之後，很明顯的火力發電、燃氣、燃煤大幅度的提升，到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%，所以這個是一般人民的認知啦！另外還要告訴你，這個是環境自己的數據，剛剛除了您講的這個排名，我們另外還要看到這個IQAir的統計，全球污染最嚴重的國家排名，臺灣是54名、韓國59、香港63、菲律賓74、新加坡94，俄羅斯99、日本108，請問部長，這樣子的排名，你怎麼會覺得臺灣的空污好轉，只輸日本？旁邊是你自己提供的圖，這是環境部的圖喔！你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5，但是硫氧化物、氮氧化物的排放源很確定至少介於20%到40%；硫氧化物是40%，氮氧化物是20%，都是由火力發電產生的，所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，IQAir是一個做空氣清淨機及微型感測器的公司，它對於PM2.5的量測是自動的，它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉，基本上我們是用手動式濾除，像日本、韓國，先進國家的國家標準都是用手動的來做，不是用自動的感測器……"],["陳委員菁徽：手動的監測站？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不是用這種自動型的來做，這個自動型的量測結果，我們比較不會作為標準。我記得在前幾次也報告過，這個數字我們參考就好了，它的趨勢可以看，但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第二個是，一般PM2.5就是叫懸浮微粒，它有直接產生出來的細微粒，也有衍生的，衍生的就是SOx、NOx（氮氧化物）等等，它會混在一起出來，所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5，因為它代表一個綜整的結果，當然我也知道，SOx電力業是40%，可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5。"],["陳委員菁徽：大家的理解是這樣子，既然火力發電很確認上升了，PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後，也會跟著上升，這是人民合理推測的一個常識。"],["彭部長啓明：可是，報告委員，其實因為我們最近這一、兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意，我們臺灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響，目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級，並沒有所謂的改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：我建議你可以到現在燃氣、燃煤大量增加的區域，再做局部地區的風險分析好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個我們都有看，目前其實沒有什麼太大的變化。當然我也必須說，因為最近是夏天，天氣很好，然後有下雨，當然就相對會比較好，如果冬天可能就比較不一樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，所以網路上也會有人說，你做出來的平均值，不但是平均臺灣各地的值，還是平均每一個月份，那是不是5到9月大家不要呼吸，然後9月之後大家再來呼吸？因為這些數值差得非常多嘛。","這是臺大的，可能部長也已經讀過了，就是臺大詹長權教授所做的分析。第一個是2022年，他去分析燃煤電廠附近的PM2.5後發現，第一，它擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大，影響的範圍更大；再來，跟其他電廠比起來，隔壁的縣市也容易受到影響。所以他去做風險計算發現，燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細懸浮微粒會造成約360例的成人死亡，還有124例的premature death。","另外一個是最新的2024年的研究，這是非常長期的分析，分析臺灣地區長達30年PM2.5的長期暴露，發現會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於非肺腺癌的風險，而且他去校正了性別、年齡、有沒有抽菸史、癌症分期這些，還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因，發現跟這些因素都沒有關係。","我們只是想正視這個問題，因為燃煤機組已經偷偷的打開了，我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱，在退役之前它必須再持續或者是它會延役，沒有人知道它會不會再運轉，這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情，而不是幫能源政策辯護。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是講我們的空污的確有改善，至於委員強調的，當然我也知道，我們肺腺癌的篩檢率目前量有增多，其實我們也在探討這個問題，因為我們的空污改善了，從過去24現在變成12.8，那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升？當然有很多因素，我想委員也是醫療專業……"],["陳委員菁徽：應該是說暴露這個還是有影響的？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實可能是這種固定源也一種，交通源也是一種，我們生活的污染源也有，所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說，我們會好好地去研究探討，生活上面或是各種的污染源，到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的，不是只有單一一個來源。"],["陳委員菁徽：但這個單一來源一定是上升的，這你同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：單一的來源，目前來看的話，如果以我們現在……"],["陳委員菁徽：難道它會是下降的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，基本上，委員，燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣，當然，現在大林跟興達……"],["陳委員菁徽：不，我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤一樣，就算你一直在講PM2.5，它都會增加硫氧化物，也增加氮氧化物，這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病，我們也不要只看肺癌，還會增加氣喘，還會增加咳嗽，增加頭痛，增加慢性咽喉炎耶。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，其實我們生活裡面有很多很多空污的來源，像我們最近也看了很多，例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜，煎肉、煎培根等等，它的PM2.5在國外的文獻都是可以到好幾百、好幾千，所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人，不是只有一個。當然我必須說，委員，我並沒有幫台電說話，只是我那天在解釋說我們的PM2.5逐漸在改善，而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定污染源了。"],["陳委員菁徽：其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話，或是不要幫台電說話，你就是講出數據就好了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我就是講出數據，委員，我這本我待會再印出來給委員看看，參考一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。所以這邊也是讓你看一下，因為我們國家的政策，現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相牴觸的，說為了達到健康臺灣，我們希望2030年癌症的死亡人數要下降三分之一，可是我們現在在做的事情，其實是增加癌症的風險，剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了。既然是要降低癌症的風險，你會發現相比之下，從102年到112年，我們罹患肺腺癌的人從每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人。你也能發現，亞洲是全球五分之三肺癌的發生地，亞洲也是空氣污染最嚴重的地方。","您上週說希望大家不要再講用肺發電，結果，網路上有幾個網友是這樣講，他說，我有乾淨的煤，你有民主的肺嗎？或者是，乾淨的煤怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢？如果真的有，那就改用民主韌性的煤啊。我真心的希望非核家園不要成為肺咳家園，又有肺疾病，又有肺癌，又有呼吸道疾病，又引起咳嗽，希望環境部長可以正視這個問題，希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空污的影響，而不是告訴我們說，你每天量都是越來越好，這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣，尤其是在特定區域的人民。"],["彭部長啓明：所以，報告委員，我這本報告裡面都有特別講我們臺灣的污染源是哪裡，我們未來要怎麼做……"],["陳委員菁徽：好啦，你做這本報告當時還沒停核電嘛，你做這本報告時還沒停。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，委員，空污的來源，例如我們做出來固定的污染源，其實我們的移動污染源已經超過固定污染源了，那電力業的比例有多少，其實我們過去的研究也都有探討。當然我也必須說，所有的量如果能夠一起減會更好，但是會造成癌症有很多很多的原因，我想委員你是醫生，絕對不是單一的原因所造成。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的研究報告了，還是跟PM2.5大幅相關。"],["彭部長啓明：可是，委員，PM2.5其實在很多，像家裡面很多的生活習慣，它PM2.5也會飆高，我們大概有七、八成的時間在室內，所以政府希望能夠多方的降低PM2.5，這是我們努力的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後一個問題，這是上禮拜滿大的新聞，就是在桃園，這個必須要幫環境部拍拍手……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：環境部跟桃園環保局查獲一個不肖業者非法掩埋廢棄物，裡面很混亂，包括水泥、樹脂、泡棉、廢液、實驗室廢料等等，達到一千七百多公噸，可是後來你們環境部把它收回去以後說，後續很不易處理，所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過2,000萬元，然後最後是對他開罰1,500萬元。那大家就會覺得，假使我是業者，我逃過的話就省了兩千多萬把廢棄物處理掉的錢，就算被抓到最高也只罰1,500萬元，這個跟食安法或者是放射性物料管理法以及公平交易法，罰款的range差很大嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，他的資產已經被我們凍結了，大概一千九百多萬，他未來也要負責全部的清理。我必須說，委員，我們過去的罰則是1,500萬，然後判5年，確實太低了，我們現在在啟動修法，可能刑期要拉到7年，而且可能不得緩刑……"],["陳委員菁徽：提高罰金嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：提高罰金，然後要加重刑責，這是我們現在要提出來的，也希望委員到時候可以支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，那請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}}