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00:00:29,051\n現在請王玉米委員來做宣導謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長王委員好部長好,部長我想請教你,你有沒有去過瑞士訪問?有有是不是?有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何?非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構?對,知道,核能佔比例很高\n\n2\n00:00:29,653 --> 00:00:55,979\n很高嘛對不對那所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字喔我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼\n\n3\n00:00:56,659 --> 00:01:13,689\n它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的\n\n4\n00:01:25,626 --> 00:01:52,071\n因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺電我們的備轉容量率都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用\n\n5\n00:01:53,939 --> 00:02:22,518\n我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣這個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照\n\n6\n00:02:24,019 --> 00:02:33,722\n然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到\n\n7\n00:02:43,865 --> 00:02:58,299\n從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而馳的方案\n\n8\n00:03:03,744 --> 00:03:25,798\n這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們火力不是唯一的污染源大家都知道\n\n9\n00:03:26,738 --> 00:03:45,539\n但是這件事情我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你你說這件事情它合法好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長這件事情縱然他說它合法它在合理的這個排放這個可以運轉的時數但是它合理嗎合請嗎\n\n10\n00:03:48,612 --> 00:04:13,438\n一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組\n\n11\n00:04:14,978 --> 00:04:40,689\n還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為\n\n12\n00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:56,359\n所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼\n\n13\n00:05:03,686 --> 00:05:25,896\n基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的\n\n14\n00:05:27,136 --> 00:05:32,434\n那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責\n\n15\n00:05:33,393 --> 00:06:01,568\n那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色\n\n16\n00:06:02,508 --> 00:06:12,559\n環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的\n\n17\n00:06:25,952 --> 00:06:46,059\n這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此\n\n18\n00:06:52,521 --> 00:06:53,982\n所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一\n\n19\n00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:31,483\n如果今天增加天然氣機組這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下我們這個在世界排名這個數據這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高這個是應該要下降的數據啊\n\n20\n00:07:34,705 --> 00:07:50,239\n所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起\n\n21\n00:07:58,308 --> 00:08:07,894\n也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64\n\n22\n00:08:14,358 --> 00:08:43,045\n還沒有到嗎那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧\n\n23\n00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:56,670\n他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%\n\n24\n00:09:01,872 --> 00:09:20,240\n這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個\n\n25\n00:09:22,833 --> 00:09:40,083\n我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的\n\n26\n00:09:44,295 --> 00:09:45,617\n當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼\n\n27\n00:09:54,608 --> 00:10:15,825\n當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是\n\n28\n00:10:16,906 --> 00:10:44,315\n不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t29051\t現在請王玉米委員來做宣導謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長王委員好部長好,部長我想請教你,你有沒有去過瑞士訪問?有有是不是?有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何?非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構?對,知道,核能佔比例很高\n29653\t55979\t很高嘛對不對那所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字喔我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼\n56659\t73689\t它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的\n85626\t112071\t因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺電我們的備轉容量率都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用\n113939\t142518\t我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣這個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照\n144019\t153722\t然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到\n163865\t178299\t從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而馳的方案\n183744\t205798\t這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們火力不是唯一的污染源 大家都知道\n206738\t225539\t但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數 但是它合理嗎 合請嗎\n228612\t253438\t一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組\n254978\t280689\t還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為\n282350\t296359\t所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼\n303686\t325896\t基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的\n327136\t332434\t那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責\n333393\t361568\t那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色\n362508\t372559\t環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的\n385952\t406059\t這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此\n412521\t413982\t所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一\n430490\t451483\t如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊\n454705\t470239\t所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起\n478308\t487894\t也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64\n494358\t523045\t還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦 因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧\n523800\t536670\t他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%\n541872\t560240\t這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個\n562833\t580083\t我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的\n584295\t585617\t當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼\n594608\t615825\t當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是\n616906\t644315\t不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝\n","txt":"現在請王玉米委員來做宣導謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長王委員好部長好,部長我想請教你,你有沒有去過瑞士訪問?有有是不是?有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何?非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構?對,知道,核能佔比例很高\n很高嘛對不對那所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字喔我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼\n它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的\n因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺電我們的備轉容量率都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用\n我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣這個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照\n然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到\n從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而馳的方案\n這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們火力不是唯一的污染源 大家都知道\n但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數 但是它合理嗎 合請嗎\n一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組\n還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為\n所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼\n基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的\n那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責\n那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色\n環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的\n這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此\n所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一\n如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊\n所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起\n也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64\n還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦 因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧\n他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%\n這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個\n我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的\n當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼\n當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是\n不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:29.051\n現在請王玉米委員來做宣導謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長王委員好部長好,部長我想請教你,你有沒有去過瑞士訪問?有有是不是?有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何?非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構?對,知道,核能佔比例很高\n\n00:29.653 --> 00:55.979\n很高嘛對不對那所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字喔我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼\n\n00:56.659 --> 01:13.689\n它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的\n\n01:25.626 --> 01:52.071\n因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺電我們的備轉容量率都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用\n\n01:53.939 --> 02:22.518\n我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣這個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照\n\n02:24.019 --> 02:33.722\n然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到\n\n02:43.865 --> 02:58.299\n從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而馳的方案\n\n03:03.744 --> 03:25.798\n這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們火力不是唯一的污染源大家都知道\n\n03:26.738 --> 03:45.539\n但是這件事情我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你你說這件事情它合法好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長這件事情縱然他說它合法它在合理的這個排放這個可以運轉的時數但是它合理嗎合請嗎\n\n03:48.612 --> 04:13.438\n一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組\n\n04:14.978 --> 04:40.689\n還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為\n\n04:42.350 --> 04:56.359\n所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼\n\n05:03.686 --> 05:25.896\n基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的\n\n05:27.136 --> 05:32.434\n那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責\n\n05:33.393 --> 06:01.568\n那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色\n\n06:02.508 --> 06:12.559\n環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的\n\n06:25.952 --> 06:46.059\n這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此\n\n06:52.521 --> 06:53.982\n所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一\n\n07:10.490 --> 07:31.483\n如果今天增加天然氣機組這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下我們這個在世界排名這個數據這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高這個是應該要下降的數據啊\n\n07:34.705 --> 07:50.239\n所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起\n\n07:58.308 --> 08:07.894\n也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64\n\n08:14.358 --> 08:43.045\n還沒有到嗎那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧\n\n08:43.800 --> 08:56.670\n他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%\n\n09:01.872 --> 09:20.240\n這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個\n\n09:22.833 --> 09:40.083\n我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的\n\n09:44.295 --> 09:45.617\n當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼\n\n09:54.608 --> 10:15.825\n當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是\n\n10:16.906 --> 10:44.315\n不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":29.051,"text":"現在請王玉米委員來做宣導謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長王委員好部長好,部長我想請教你,你有沒有去過瑞士訪問?有有是不是?有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何?非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構?對,知道,核能佔比例很高"},{"start":29.653,"end":55.979,"text":"很高嘛對不對那所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字喔我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼"},{"start":56.659,"end":73.689,"text":"它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的"},{"start":85.626,"end":112.071,"text":"因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺電我們的備轉容量率都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用"},{"start":113.939,"end":142.518,"text":"我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣這個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照"},{"start":144.019,"end":153.722,"text":"然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到"},{"start":163.865,"end":178.299,"text":"從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而馳的方案"},{"start":183.744,"end":205.798,"text":"這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們火力不是唯一的污染源 大家都知道"},{"start":206.738,"end":225.539,"text":"但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數 但是它合理嗎 合請嗎"},{"start":228.612,"end":253.438,"text":"一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組"},{"start":254.978,"end":280.689,"text":"還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為"},{"start":282.35,"end":296.359,"text":"所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼"},{"start":303.686,"end":325.896,"text":"基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的"},{"start":327.136,"end":332.434,"text":"那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責"},{"start":333.393,"end":361.568,"text":"那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色"},{"start":362.508,"end":372.559,"text":"環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的"},{"start":385.952,"end":406.059,"text":"這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此"},{"start":412.521,"end":413.982,"text":"所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一"},{"start":430.49,"end":451.483,"text":"如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊"},{"start":454.705,"end":470.239,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起"},{"start":478.308,"end":487.894,"text":"也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64"},{"start":494.358,"end":523.045,"text":"還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦 因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧"},{"start":523.8,"end":536.67,"text":"他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%"},{"start":541.872,"end":560.24,"text":"這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個"},{"start":562.833,"end":580.083,"text":"我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的"},{"start":584.295,"end":585.617,"text":"當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼"},{"start":594.608,"end":615.825,"text":"當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是"},{"start":616.906,"end":644.315,"text":"不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時7分）謝謝召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我想請教，你有沒有去過瑞士訪問？"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["王委員育敏：那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何？"],["彭部長啓明：非常好。"],["王委員育敏：非常好？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：那你知不知道他們的電力結構？"],["彭部長啓明：知道，核能占比很高。"],["王委員育敏：很高嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以我今天要跟你討論的就是，為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好？我們臺灣其實是在退步當中，我必須講「退步」兩個字。我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起出席WHA相關的會議、訪問瑞士，的確我跟你的感受一樣，到了瑞士之後，第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新，它的空氣非常清新是來自於什麼？它是一個低碳發電的國家，所謂的低碳，它的水力占了五成，核能占了三分之一，所以這些低碳占比就已經超過八成了，它的燃煤大概只有2到3%，就是這種火力的。那你看看我們臺灣，我們臺灣現在連除役的機組都可以重新運轉，我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候，坦白講還滿難過的，因為賴總統告訴大家說，我們不缺電，我們的備轉容量率都十幾%，他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲，結果跟事實完全不一樣，我們的實情是，人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉？因為電不夠啊！因為我們的備轉容量率小於6%、小於8%，所以就要啟用。我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的，為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢？一個還可以繼續延役的核三廠2號機，它就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣，核能其實是低碳的，結果你不用，硬是要除役，然後高污染的興達電廠，包括大林電廠，都是因為當地高雄居民已經在抗議，所以不發給他們執照，有的是已經除役，但偏偏還要運轉，這是什麼能源政策？部長，我覺得經濟部跟總統府都在害你啊！他們錯誤的政策，讓你的減碳任務跟目標完全不可能達到。","從2016年到現在，我們國內因為燃煤發電增加的碳排量已經高達80萬噸了，請問你們環境部再怎麼努力，有一方的政策不斷再增加碳排，然而你們又在國際承諾要減碳，這完全是背道而馳的方案，這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢？在這件事情上，我認為部長要維持你專業跟中立的立場，因為媒體問你，你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話就說：我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二，我們火力不是唯一的污染源。這大家都知道，但是針對這件事情，我看到今天早上媒體訪問你，你說這件事情是合法，好像你們環境部也無可奈何，但是我要告訴部長，這件事情縱然你說它合法，也在合理可以運轉的時數裡排放，但是它合理嗎？合情嗎？一點都不，當我們有更好的選擇，我們在這個能源政策上，可以選擇一個低碳能源的時候，我們不選擇，這就是不合理啊！","另外一個合情，你們有尊重人民的感受嗎？你今天告訴大家說：核三廠2號機可以準時除役，沒問題！我們的電都是夠的。結果是實情不然嘛！你們把高污染的燃煤機組還要加大它的運轉量，進而增加空污，你認為人民心裡的感受是如何？為什麼國家不能給我們更好的選擇？為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定？這個就是我們看到這件事情，為什麼討論了幾天，人民還是那麼的在乎，我相信你從民間出來，比其他的官員，你更應該能貼近人民的感受，我是這麼認為。","所以在這件事情上，我想請教的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎？在那個成員裡面，你們真的不能發聲嗎？不是還有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎？我們不是要永續嗎？我要請教部長，在這件事情上到底環境部還能做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個核能或是電力的調度，這部分是屬於經濟部的職掌。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["彭部長啓明：必須說職掌，我們當然對於它有沒有違反環評的承諾？例如它運轉時數不能超過720小時，我們會嚴格監督會去算它運轉時數大概有多少？這個是我們的角色，至於委員提到委員會的內容，委員會其實對這部分是開放的，我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責，不是我們環境部的權責。"],["王委員育敏：你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣的低碳永續，而且你又必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場，你有你們的主張，而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控，如果什麼都是只有經濟部掌控，就是我們現在看到的狀況。經濟部只是說：反正對於各種能源，我們不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題，我們也不用擔心減碳的承諾。那些都不是他們的職責，但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色，環境部應該要把你們的立場拿出來，就是我反對在能源選項裡面，他們去用高污染的嘛！這是你們可以講的，當你可以有選擇權的時候，如果沒有選擇權，當然就沒得談，但是當還有選擇權的時候，選擇一個最佳方案，對於環境永續、對於減碳更好的方案，我覺得環境部是可以有角色的，你們是可以講的，這個是可以達到的，要不然環境永續就是講假的。","接下來看一下我們現在臺灣每人煤電的使用量是世界最高，如果以人均計算的話，我們比中國大陸還要高，平均每一個人煤電用量來到4,859.6瓦特，這是國際上的數據，分攤下來就是如此，所以在這樣的情況底下，還要讓煤電來救援嗎？我們的興達電廠及大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎？這個是為什麼臺中市長盧秀燕當時在看中火的議題的時候，呼籲「增一拆一」？如果今天增加天然氣機組，原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉，不拆掉的後果就是這樣子，都亂用嘛！不夠的時候，就拿高污染的能源設備來救援，在這樣的情況底下，我們在世界排名的數據，這個第一名是不好看的。我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高，這是應該要下降的數據，所以這件事情，我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的方向去走。","另外，我們現在放任煤電去用的話，這個減碳目標就是會造成你們環境部永遠沒有辦法達標，我們過去溫室氣體減量的這一個目標，沒有一次是達標的；第一期只要減少2%，也達不到，第二期目標要減少10%，更是不可能的任務，實際只有減量1.79%，已經確定就是跳票了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這還沒有到，因為我們2023年是4.64%。"],["王委員育敏：還沒有到嗎？你可不可以告訴大家，我們不會跳票嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望再努力啦！因為目前我們有在估算大概到2025年應該可以到達8%到9%左右，的確還差一點點，但是我們一定會持續在減碳的路徑上努力。"],["王委員育敏：現在燃煤電廠還火力全開，你這麼的有自信啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前是用各種資料來……"],["王委員育敏：你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上它是用整年的這樣方式來計算的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們可以看，至少目前看到的數據就是差很遠，你們還拉高了第三期的目標值，本來要減量24%，現在你們設定是28%，這是在畫大餅嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，我們有一個努力的目標，而且經過他們包含能源部門提供的數據，我們都有核實再去double check過。"],["王委員育敏：能源部門？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：你還相信他們嗎？我覺得經濟部就是害你整個減碳目標不能達到的部會，你還相信他們提供的數據，我覺得錯誤的能源政策，真的是會害全民受苦，我目前感受非常深刻，看看別的國家再回來想想自己，我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他們生活的高品質、他們整個環境的永續、他們整個狀態那麼的好？因為他們上位的政策是對的嘛！當我看到我們臺灣在倒退走的時候，還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候，我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼？當你有更好的選擇的時候，你沒有幫人民選擇，我只能講這個就是對不起人民，對不起人民的健康，我希望錯誤的政策要儘快的修正，因為為官者，你的服務對象是人民啊！不是自己偏執的理念，非核家園在臺灣其實是不可能實現的，也不應該實現的，因為臺灣沒有條件，我們跟瑞士很像，如果瑞士需要核能的話，我們臺灣有什麼本事可以完全不用核能？我真的想不明白這個道理，如果要用燃煤來取代核能，我是堅決反對的，因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康，我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策，一切都是為了人民，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}}