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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 273.134, \"end\": 273.754, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 273.754, \"end\": 273.914, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 273.914, \"end\": 274.415, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 274.415, \"end\": 274.635, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 274.635, \"end\": 274.875, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 274.875, \"end\": 275.115, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 275.115, \"end\": 275.635, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 275.635, \"end\": 275.756, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 275.756, \"end\": 276.016, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 276.016, \"end\": 276.356, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 276.356, \"end\": 276.536, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 276.536, \"end\": 276.656, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 276.656, \"end\": 276.816, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 276.816, \"end\": 277.777, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 277.777, \"end\": 277.877, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 277.877, \"end\": 277.957, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 277.957, \"end\": 278.137, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 278.137, \"end\": 278.277, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 278.277, \"end\": 278.397, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 278.397, \"end\": 278.537, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 278.537, \"end\": 278.657, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 278.657, \"end\": 278.837, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 278.837, \"end\": 279.038, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 279.038, \"end\": 279.158, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 279.158, \"end\": 279.258, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 279.258, \"end\": 279.458, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 279.458, \"end\": 279.958, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 279.958, \"end\": 280.078, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 280.078, \"end\": 280.218, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 280.218, \"end\": 280.378, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"卡\", \"start\": 280.378, \"end\": 280.398, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"債\"}]}, {\"start\": 281.839, \"end\": 299.531, \"text\": \"所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 281.839, \"end\": 281.919, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 281.919, \"end\": 281.999, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 281.999, \"end\": 282.32, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 282.32, \"end\": 282.52, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 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0.866}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.166, \"end\": 500.266, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 500.266, \"end\": 500.426, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 500.426, \"end\": 500.586, \"score\": 0.513}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 500.586, \"end\": 500.986, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 500.986, \"end\": 501.126, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 501.126, \"end\": 501.286, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 501.286, \"end\": 501.466, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 501.466, \"end\": 501.666, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 501.666, \"end\": 501.846, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 501.846, \"end\": 501.966, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 501.966, \"end\": 502.166, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 502.166, \"end\": 502.427, \"score\": 0.934}, 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00:01:49,569\n我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就去看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的\n\n6\n00:01:54,652 --> 00:02:16,089\n為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持\n\n7\n00:02:23,942 --> 00:02:40,403\n那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,華湖一直在宣導,我們華湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。\n\n8\n00:02:41,434 --> 00:02:59,409\n我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人\n\n9\n00:03:00,309 --> 00:03:18,654\n他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假\n\n10\n00:03:20,174 --> 00:03:40,257\n法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎\n\n11\n00:03:42,379 --> 00:03:57,119\n所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉\n\n12\n00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:07,012\n第二個呢就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債\n\n13\n00:04:16,604 --> 00:04:40,398\n所以以案件來講也不是什麼詐欺類最多刑事案件最多所以除了對象不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的既弱就貧的然後在案件類也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢他可能去借錢可能去卡債\n\n14\n00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:59,531\n所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服\n\n15\n00:05:00,994 --> 00:05:22,409\n當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定\n\n16\n00:05:23,731 --> 00:05:37,772\n限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內\n\n17\n00:05:39,014 --> 00:06:01,916\n很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為\n\n18\n00:06:02,777 --> 00:06:22,139\n不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁\n\n19\n00:06:25,034 --> 00:06:43,647\n那跟騷法的三週年回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視我們先用數字2022年上路到現在我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38%一般跟騷62%左右\n\n20\n00:06:49,711 --> 00:07:16,932\n而以2024去年一整年呢跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%\n\n21\n00:07:18,493 --> 00:07:37,831\n而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表\n\n22\n00:07:39,577 --> 00:07:54,932\n那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁\n\n23\n00:07:56,195 --> 00:08:23,087\n但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害\n\n24\n00:08:25,948 --> 00:08:50,150\n所以優先從這種對象來下手但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦\n\n25\n00:08:52,248 --> 00:09:12,719\n對不對那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎那個馬次長\n\n26\n00:09:16,181 --> 00:09:30,390\n如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長\n\n27\n00:09:32,257 --> 00:09:55,313\n其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程\n\n28\n00:09:56,474 --> 00:10:00,558\n那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的\n\n29\n00:10:02,404 --> 00:10:28,744\n跟委員報告因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫\n\n30\n00:10:30,385 --> 00:10:53,126\n比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇\n\n31\n00:10:54,927 --> 00:11:02,913\n就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫\n\n32\n00:11:06,325 --> 00:11:27,131\n各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好\n\n33\n00:11:28,231 --> 00:11:43,251\n那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要\n\n34\n00:11:45,042 --> 00:12:02,032\n這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個\n\n35\n00:12:03,152 --> 00:12:26,074\n譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫\n\n36\n00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:36,488\n檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多\n\n37\n00:12:37,875 --> 00:12:58,025\n我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12574\t25059\t好謝謝主席我請我們的司法院副秘請王副秘書長然後法務部政次黃次長我特別請法服的莊董事長好委員長\n37190\t40577\t大家辛苦了今天題目有點多我們把握時間了下一頁\n41924\t67892\t最近有立法委員公然的批判了法服只幫加害人他批判了法服幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜其實不光是張其凱委員在上週的這個言論早在今年的一二月我觀察到整個媒體的報導輿論嚴重的操作對於法服的污名化\n68852\t85341\t譬如說我看到這個一月份吧這媒體也特別的在扭曲說法服幫助的都是詐欺犯然後幫助的案類的前五名都是加害者就是搭配\n86653\t109569\t我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就去看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的\n114652\t136089\t為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持\n143942\t160403\t那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,華湖一直在宣導,我們華湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。\n161434\t179409\t我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人\n180309\t198654\t他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假\n200174\t220257\t法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎\n222379\t237119\t所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉\n238240\t247012\t第二個呢 就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件 18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債\n256604\t280398\t所以以案件來講 也不是什麼詐欺類最多 刑事案件最多所以 除了對象 不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的 既弱就貧的然後在案件類 也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢 他可能去借錢 可能去卡債\n281839\t299531\t所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服\n300994\t322409\t當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定\n323731\t337772\t限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內\n339014\t361916\t很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為\n362777\t382139\t不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁\n385034\t403647\t那跟騷法的三週年 回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視 我們先用數字2022年上路到現在 我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38% 一般跟騷62%左右\n409711\t436932\t而以2024去年一整年呢 跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢 警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高 67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高 67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%\n438493\t457831\t而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表\n459577\t474932\t那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁\n476195\t503087\t但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害\n505948\t530150\t所以優先從這種對象來下手 但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢 可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦\n532248\t552719\t對不對 那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎 那個馬次長\n556181\t570390\t如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長\n572257\t595313\t其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件 這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程\n596474\t600558\t那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的\n602404\t628744\t跟委員報告 因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫\n630385\t653126\t比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇\n654927\t662913\t就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫\n666325\t687131\t各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好\n688231\t703251\t那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要\n705042\t722032\t這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個\n723152\t746074\t譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫\n748236\t756488\t檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多\n757875\t778025\t我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我請我們的司法院副秘請王副秘書長然後法務部政次黃次長我特別請法服的莊董事長好委員長\n大家辛苦了今天題目有點多我們把握時間了下一頁\n最近有立法委員公然的批判了法服只幫加害人他批判了法服幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜其實不光是張其凱委員在上週的這個言論早在今年的一二月我觀察到整個媒體的報導輿論嚴重的操作對於法服的污名化\n譬如說我看到這個一月份吧這媒體也特別的在扭曲說法服幫助的都是詐欺犯然後幫助的案類的前五名都是加害者就是搭配\n我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就去看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的\n為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持\n那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,華湖一直在宣導,我們華湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。\n我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人\n他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假\n法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎\n所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉\n第二個呢 就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件 18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債\n所以以案件來講 也不是什麼詐欺類最多 刑事案件最多所以 除了對象 不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的 既弱就貧的然後在案件類 也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢 他可能去借錢 可能去卡債\n所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服\n當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定\n限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內\n很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為\n不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁\n那跟騷法的三週年 回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視 我們先用數字2022年上路到現在 我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38% 一般跟騷62%左右\n而以2024去年一整年呢 跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢 警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高 67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高 67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%\n而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表\n那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁\n但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害\n所以優先從這種對象來下手 但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢 可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦\n對不對 那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎 那個馬次長\n如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長\n其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件 這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程\n那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的\n跟委員報告 因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫\n比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇\n就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫\n各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好\n那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要\n這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個\n譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫\n檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多\n我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.574 --> 00:25.059\n好謝謝主席我請我們的司法院副秘請王副秘書長然後法務部政次黃次長我特別請法服的莊董事長好委員長\n\n00:37.190 --> 00:40.577\n大家辛苦了今天題目有點多我們把握時間了下一頁\n\n00:41.924 --> 01:07.892\n最近有立法委員公然的批判了法服只幫加害人他批判了法服幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜其實不光是張其凱委員在上週的這個言論早在今年的一二月我觀察到整個媒體的報導輿論嚴重的操作對於法服的污名化\n\n01:08.852 --> 01:25.341\n譬如說我看到這個一月份吧這媒體也特別的在扭曲說法服幫助的都是詐欺犯然後幫助的案類的前五名都是加害者就是搭配\n\n01:26.653 --> 01:49.569\n我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就去看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的\n\n01:54.652 --> 02:16.089\n為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持\n\n02:23.942 --> 02:40.403\n那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,華湖一直在宣導,我們華湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。\n\n02:41.434 --> 02:59.409\n我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人\n\n03:00.309 --> 03:18.654\n他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假\n\n03:20.174 --> 03:40.257\n法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎\n\n03:42.379 --> 03:57.119\n所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉\n\n03:58.240 --> 04:07.012\n第二個呢就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債\n\n04:16.604 --> 04:40.398\n所以以案件來講也不是什麼詐欺類最多刑事案件最多所以除了對象不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的既弱就貧的然後在案件類也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢他可能去借錢可能去卡債\n\n04:41.839 --> 04:59.531\n所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服\n\n05:00.994 --> 05:22.409\n當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定\n\n05:23.731 --> 05:37.772\n限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內\n\n05:39.014 --> 06:01.916\n很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為\n\n06:02.777 --> 06:22.139\n不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁\n\n06:25.034 --> 06:43.647\n那跟騷法的三週年回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視我們先用數字2022年上路到現在我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38%一般跟騷62%左右\n\n06:49.711 --> 07:16.932\n而以2024去年一整年呢跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%\n\n07:18.493 --> 07:37.831\n而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表\n\n07:39.577 --> 07:54.932\n那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁\n\n07:56.195 --> 08:23.087\n但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害\n\n08:25.948 --> 08:50.150\n所以優先從這種對象來下手但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦\n\n08:52.248 --> 09:12.719\n對不對那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎那個馬次長\n\n09:16.181 --> 09:30.390\n如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長\n\n09:32.257 --> 09:55.313\n其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程\n\n09:56.474 --> 10:00.558\n那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的\n\n10:02.404 --> 10:28.744\n跟委員報告因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫\n\n10:30.385 --> 10:53.126\n比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇\n\n10:54.927 --> 11:02.913\n就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫\n\n11:06.325 --> 11:27.131\n各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好\n\n11:28.231 --> 11:43.251\n那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要\n\n11:45.042 --> 12:02.032\n這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個\n\n12:03.152 --> 12:26.074\n譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫\n\n12:28.236 --> 12:36.488\n檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多\n\n12:37.875 --> 12:58.025\n我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.574,"end":25.059,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們的司法院副秘請王副秘書長然後法務部政次黃次長我特別請法服的莊董事長好委員長"},{"start":37.19,"end":40.577,"text":"大家辛苦了今天題目有點多我們把握時間了下一頁"},{"start":41.924,"end":67.892,"text":"最近有立法委員公然的批判了法服只幫加害人他批判了法服幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜其實不光是張其凱委員在上週的這個言論早在今年的一二月我觀察到整個媒體的報導輿論嚴重的操作對於法服的污名化"},{"start":68.852,"end":85.341,"text":"譬如說我看到這個一月份吧這媒體也特別的在扭曲說法服幫助的都是詐欺犯然後幫助的案類的前五名都是加害者就是搭配"},{"start":86.653,"end":109.569,"text":"我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就去看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的"},{"start":114.652,"end":136.089,"text":"為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持"},{"start":143.942,"end":160.403,"text":"那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,華湖一直在宣導,我們華湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。"},{"start":161.434,"end":179.409,"text":"我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人"},{"start":180.309,"end":198.654,"text":"他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假"},{"start":200.174,"end":220.257,"text":"法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎"},{"start":222.379,"end":237.119,"text":"所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉"},{"start":238.24,"end":247.012,"text":"第二個呢 就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件 18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債"},{"start":256.604,"end":280.398,"text":"所以以案件來講 也不是什麼詐欺類最多 刑事案件最多所以 除了對象 不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的 既弱就貧的然後在案件類 也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢 他可能去借錢 可能去卡債"},{"start":281.839,"end":299.531,"text":"所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服"},{"start":300.994,"end":322.409,"text":"當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定"},{"start":323.731,"end":337.772,"text":"限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內"},{"start":339.014,"end":361.916,"text":"很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為"},{"start":362.777,"end":382.139,"text":"不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁"},{"start":385.034,"end":403.647,"text":"那跟騷法的三週年 回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視 我們先用數字2022年上路到現在 我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38% 一般跟騷62%左右"},{"start":409.711,"end":436.932,"text":"而以2024去年一整年呢 跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢 警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高 67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高 67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%"},{"start":438.493,"end":457.831,"text":"而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表"},{"start":459.577,"end":474.932,"text":"那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁"},{"start":476.195,"end":503.087,"text":"但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害"},{"start":505.948,"end":530.15,"text":"所以優先從這種對象來下手 但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢 可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦"},{"start":532.248,"end":552.719,"text":"對不對 那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎 那個馬次長"},{"start":556.181,"end":570.39,"text":"如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長"},{"start":572.257,"end":595.313,"text":"其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件 這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程"},{"start":596.474,"end":600.558,"text":"那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的"},{"start":602.404,"end":628.744,"text":"跟委員報告 因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫"},{"start":630.385,"end":653.126,"text":"比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇"},{"start":654.927,"end":662.913,"text":"就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫"},{"start":666.325,"end":687.131,"text":"各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好"},{"start":688.231,"end":703.251,"text":"那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要"},{"start":705.042,"end":722.032,"text":"這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個"},{"start":723.152,"end":746.074,"text":"譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫"},{"start":748.236,"end":756.488,"text":"檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多"},{"start":757.875,"end":778.025,"text":"我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時39分）音量要高還是低？"],["主席：嘿嘿，你們自己控制。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後是法務部政次。"],["主席：黃次長。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還要特別請法扶的莊董事長。"],["主席：請。"],["王副秘書長梅英：吳委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了。今天題目有點多，我們把握時間。","最近有立法委員公然批判法扶只幫加害人，他批判了法扶幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜，其實不光是張啓楷委員在上週的這個言論，早在今年一、二月我就觀察到整個媒體的報導，輿論嚴重操作對於法扶的污名化。譬如說我看到1月份媒體特別扭曲說法扶幫助的都是詐欺犯，幫助的案類前5名都是加害者，這是搭配。我不曉得張啓楷委員是不是剛好看到一、二月那個錯誤的報導，所以讓他做出這種嚴重打擊法扶，而且完全不符合事實的陳述。任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重，否則對於成立了21年的法扶是一個傷害。法扶從3個分會開始，現在有22個分會，為了捍衛憲法的訴訟權和平等權，為了司法的公平性而成立法扶，有多少律師群和專業人士來投入！","所以我想就教董事長，先講服務對象好了，法扶都只幫忙加害人嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然不是。首先感謝委員對於法扶的支持，您剛剛所提問的，其實一般民眾是會這樣想的，多年來法扶一直在宣導，我們法扶扶助的對象絕對不叫做幫助加害人。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們都是在濟弱救貧嘛！"],["莊董事長秋桃：對。在法治國家裡面，我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上……在審判庭的時候，檢察官就代表被害人，他對於被告直接控訴了，需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到這個聲音。"],["吳委員思瑤：我這裡有一個資訊，就我所調查的資料，我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課，而不是像張啓楷這樣無的放矢，還涉及抹黑造假。法扶的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭，34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護案件，所以並沒有選擇你是加害人或受害人，因為法扶在接案受理的時候不能未審先判嘛！所以我的資訊是正確的嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以法扶不是只幫加害人嘛！"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然。"],["吳委員思瑤：就服務對象絕對不是。"],["莊董事長秋桃：絕對不是。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是就是不是，請張啓楷委員收回他的話，甚至要向服務法扶的這些專業人士、法律界的人士道歉。"],["莊董事長秋桃：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二個是就案件類，我也去做了調查，法扶協助的案件類最大宗有1萬142件，18%其實是幫助人民做還債，也就是信用卡的卡債，所以以案件來講，也不是什麼詐欺類最多、刑事案件最多，所以除了對象不是只幫加害人，而是一視同仁的、濟弱救貧的，然後在案件類也不是服務詐欺犯、服務那些刑事案件的罪犯，而是來幫助民眾最需要的，而且因為他就是弱勢，很多社會弱勢可能是借錢，可能是卡債，對不對？所以你們最高的案類，18%都是在協助民眾還債這一類，我的資訊正確嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：那現在法扶受到這樣……我給您一點點時間好不好？給您30秒，好好對社會正向地訴求，不要污名化法扶！"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然，對法扶的誤解我們多年來一直在澄清，我們也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法扶，這是我們司法裡面在扶助人民的一股很安定的力量。我們有22個分會、四千多名法扶律師在幫全民做各種法律服務，絕對不是只為特定、限定是加害人或是被害人，而是只要他是生活弱勢、經濟弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當扶助的，我們都一起包含在內。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是很重要的觀念，我覺得以我們的法治教育來講，這一年來立委最需要受法治教育了。","其實法扶是在程序正義上來幫忙，所以程序正義上是一視同仁的，法扶不會成為法院之上的法院，法扶不會先去判定陳請協助的人是加害人或被害人，因為不論法律上的加害、被害，都是要透過司法的偵查及審判才能夠斷定，這是基於無罪推定原則。"],["莊董事長秋桃：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以辛苦你們了，我們持續做對的事。今天也有一個案子的解凍是法扶被凍結了，翁曉玲委員凍結了1,000萬，我希望能夠替你們伸張正義，謝謝，您請回。"],["莊董事長秋桃：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：跟騷法上路3週年，回到今天專報的主題，其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一。3年了，我們希望好好地檢視，我們先用數字來看，跟騷法從2022年上路到現在，各警察機關受理的案件有8,488件，家暴類的案件占38%，一般跟騷案件占了62%左右；而以2024年（去年）一整年來看，跟騷受（處）理案件有2,806件，當中最有意義的是警方、警政部門核發書面告誡的比率其實很高，占了67%，而法院核發跟騷保護令的比率也很高，占了67%。我認為很有意義的是，經由檢方核發書面告誡仍再犯跟騷的比率低於10%，而且經由法院核發跟騷的保護令之後再持續加害、持續跟騷的比率更低於5%，換言之，這達到了我們當初立法及制度的有效因應，兩位是不是都看到正面的結果？哪一位要代表說明？"],["王副秘書長梅英：同意委員所說的，其實法院的統計裡面，可能是基準不一樣，我們的數字甚至還到達了七成，就是核准率……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，法院核發的比率到達七成？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我整理的數字是67.3%。當初我們在倡議、立法的時候，都一直認為它的對象要限縮於與性及性別有關，當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見，當然我們理解，警政部門認為資源有限，應優先從高風險的案件著手，因為在立法那個時候有很多情殺、跟騷之後被殺害，所以優先從這種對象來下手，但是上路了3年以後，是不是更妥切地去……我們可不可能研議增訂成案的排除條款，更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類？為什麼這麼說呢？可能世杰次長要回應。我發現很多被跟騷的人是被黑道討債的，對不對？像這種案類很清楚，是不是就可以納入跟騷的範圍？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為這個是內政部主管的法令，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：那你認為呢？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個要經過通盤的研議，因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有如委員剛剛所說的……"],["吳委員思瑤：那時候您還是立委，您也參與這個法律的討論。"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：請內政部的代表，好嗎？馬次長，如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關，其實真的沒有辦法幫助……我說黑道討債就是很明顯的案類，派黑道來跟騷你，造成你身心靈的壓力，甚至有進一步的暴力事件，次長，請答復。"],["馬次長士元：我跟委員報告，其實除了黑道暴力討債之外，我們還有聚眾滋擾、鄰里糾紛及記者追蹤，總共有4個樣態是跟目前的跟騷法的構成要件……"],["吳委員思瑤：然後還有狗仔隊的。"],["馬次長士元：對，這是不一樣的。有一個比較重要的考量就是，如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話，會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動過程，對一般人來講會……"],["吳委員思瑤：我再聚焦，我說黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前黑道討債主要是依照刑法跟相關的條文……"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道。我覺得這個是大哉問，當初我們在立法的時候我講過了，我今天還是希望能夠好好在3週年……因為原本上路3週年之後，你們就要檢視法律。","接下來也要請你們一併納入檢視的，就是相對人的治療性處遇計畫比照家暴案類。我講重點，家暴案類對於這些處遇計畫來講，其實有社政及衛政的協力，才能夠提出具體的處遇性計畫，也能夠有效來幫助，但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為，對於處遇就真的沒有辦法做到，是不是有這樣的問題？還有包括聲請人要預繳費用……"],["馬次長士元：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：整個不友善的處遇性計畫。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，被害人要預繳的部分，我們跟衛福部在協調，因為它的確是一個不合理的設計。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且不低耶。"],["馬次長士元：對，這個不合理，從被害人的角度，我們都知道這個有問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：什麼時候會有答案？"],["馬次長士元：我們會儘快，因為在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表見過面了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，加速，好嗎？"],["馬次長士元：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：那其他的處遇計畫，內容不夠具體……"],["馬次長士元：委員剛剛有提到，處遇性計畫如果經法院根據跟騷法第十二條第一項第三款核發保護令的話，其治療性處遇計畫是有強制力的。"],["吳委員思瑤：可是那要……就是相對困難嘛。"],["馬次長士元：對，如果是其他的法條有所謂的認知輔導或教育的話，就不是具有強制力的部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，你可能不是這方面的專業，你是防災的專家。我建議3週年就是要好好檢視跟騷法，我提出來的幾個問題，譬如範圍的界定；處遇性計畫內容不夠具體、不夠明確，以至於過偏於警政，如何讓衛政及社政的系統能夠融入？還有剛剛你說的聲請人預繳的處遇性費用，我當然支持馬上能做的要馬上做。我希望我們未來還有機會來討論，好好把3週年上路以後的檢視計畫、檢討計畫再提出來。我還是正面地肯定，如同我剛剛在簡報第1頁show出來的，有相當高的警察、員警當初都很怕案類很多，我覺得看起來還是很好的執行成績。"],["馬次長士元：我們很努力，因為的確一定要保護這個部分的被害人。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們希望保護能夠不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人，減輕他們的心理壓力，好嗎？"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：希望等一下司法院及稍後國安會的預算解凍都能夠順利，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員，我們會完整檢討，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}}