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\"end\": 476.199, \"text\": \"他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 454.565, \"end\": 456.146, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 456.146, \"end\": 456.586, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 456.586, \"end\": 456.846, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.846, \"end\": 456.967, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 456.967, \"end\": 457.167, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 457.167, \"end\": 457.287, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 457.287, \"end\": 457.727, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 457.727, \"end\": 458.067, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 458.067, \"end\": 458.307, 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\"考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 476.499, \"end\": 476.999, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 476.999, \"end\": 477.219, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 477.219, \"end\": 477.759, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 477.759, \"end\": 478.139, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 478.139, \"end\": 478.54, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 478.54, \"end\": 478.74, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 478.74, \"end\": 478.9, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 478.9, \"end\": 479.06, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 479.06, \"end\": 479.26, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 479.26, \"end\": 479.42, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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0.565}, {\"word\": \"累\", \"start\": 494.064, \"end\": 494.344, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 494.344, \"end\": 494.364, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 497.225, \"end\": 512.69, \"text\": \"那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 497.225, \"end\": 497.625, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 497.625, \"end\": 497.805, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 497.805, \"end\": 497.905, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 497.905, \"end\": 498.165, \"score\": 0.584}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 498.165, \"end\": 498.325, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 498.325, \"end\": 498.465, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 498.465, \"end\": 498.626, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 498.626, \"end\": 498.786, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 498.786, \"end\": 498.946, 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 510.57, \"end\": 510.99, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"竟\", \"start\": 510.99, \"end\": 511.09, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 511.09, \"end\": 511.23, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 511.23, \"end\": 511.73, \"score\": 0.626}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 511.73, \"end\": 512.11, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 512.11, \"end\": 512.27, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 512.27, \"end\": 512.29, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"良\", \"start\": 512.29, \"end\": 512.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 512.31, \"end\": 512.47, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 512.47, \"end\": 512.49, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 512.49, \"end\": 512.65, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.65, \"end\": 512.67, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 512.67, \"end\": 512.69, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 515.239, \"end\": 530.967, \"text\": \"是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 515.239, \"end\": 515.459, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 515.459, \"end\": 515.619, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 515.619, \"end\": 516.18, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 516.18, \"end\": 516.58, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 516.58, \"end\": 516.98, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 516.98, \"end\": 517.52, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"暫\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 517.52, \"end\": 517.7, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"聘\", \"start\": 517.7, \"end\": 517.84, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 517.84, \"end\": 518.161, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 518.161, \"end\": 518.341, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 518.341, \"end\": 518.481, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 518.481, \"end\": 518.601, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 518.601, \"end\": 518.921, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 518.921, \"end\": 519.281, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 519.281, \"end\": 519.541, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 519.541, \"end\": 519.862, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 519.862, \"end\": 520.102, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 520.102, \"end\": 520.302, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 520.302, \"end\": 520.982, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 520.982, \"end\": 521.162, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 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\"會\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 524.844, \"end\": 525.064, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 525.064, \"end\": 525.244, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 525.244, \"end\": 525.665, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 525.665, \"end\": 526.185, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 526.185, \"end\": 526.345, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 526.345, \"end\": 526.705, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 526.705, \"end\": 526.885, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 526.885, \"end\": 527.085, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 527.085, \"end\": 527.245, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 527.245, \"end\": 527.626, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 527.626, \"end\": 527.806, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 527.806, \"end\": 527.966, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 527.966, \"end\": 528.166, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.166, \"end\": 528.286, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 528.286, \"end\": 528.806, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 528.806, \"end\": 529.327, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 529.327, \"end\": 529.427, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 529.427, \"end\": 530.287, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 530.287, \"end\": 530.447, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 530.447, \"end\": 530.487, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 530.487, \"end\": 530.687, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 530.687, \"end\": 530.847, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 530.847, \"end\": 530.947, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"蹤\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 530.947, \"end\": 530.967, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 532.428, \"end\": 548.986, \"text\": \"我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 532.428, \"end\": 532.649, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 532.649, \"end\": 532.929, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 532.929, \"end\": 533.109, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 533.109, \"end\": 533.75, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"蹤\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 533.75, \"end\": 534.21, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 534.21, \"end\": 534.411, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 534.411, \"end\": 534.791, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 534.791, \"end\": 534.931, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 534.931, \"end\": 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0.994}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 796.969, \"end\": 797.43, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 797.43, \"end\": 797.81, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 797.81, \"end\": 797.99, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 797.99, \"end\": 798.07, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 798.07, \"end\": 798.171, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 798.171, \"end\": 798.191, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 798.191, \"end\": 798.371, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 798.371, \"end\": 798.551, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 798.551, \"end\": 798.651, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 798.651, \"end\": 798.771, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 798.771, \"end\": 798.932, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 798.932, \"end\": 799.072, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 799.072, \"end\": 799.753, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 799.753, \"end\": 801.115, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 801.115, \"end\": 801.275, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 801.275, \"end\": 801.295, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:01,451\n好謝謝主席有請司法院謝謝請王副秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:18,210 --> 00:00:22,014\n我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法\n\n3\n00:00:37,489 --> 00:00:52,572\n那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個\n\n4\n00:00:53,413 --> 00:00:59,177\n粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛\n\n5\n00:01:13,727 --> 00:01:28,381\n左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的\n\n6\n00:01:31,044 --> 00:02:00,471\n那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合\n\n7\n00:02:00,931 --> 00:02:29,284\n第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態\n\n8\n00:02:30,785 --> 00:02:39,992\n都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款\n\n9\n00:02:49,439 --> 00:03:16,032\n導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷\n\n10\n00:03:16,792 --> 00:03:20,760\n就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好謝謝\n\n11\n00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:56,368\n我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分\n\n12\n00:03:57,648 --> 00:04:25,567\n因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為\n\n13\n00:04:26,311 --> 00:04:44,710\n但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論\n\n14\n00:04:46,391 --> 00:05:10,145\n好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止\n\n15\n00:05:13,687 --> 00:05:37,386\n地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少111222這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好謝謝\n\n16\n00:05:42,526 --> 00:06:03,519\n市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為\n\n17\n00:06:04,660 --> 00:06:25,598\n當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破\n\n18\n00:06:26,258 --> 00:06:45,838\n那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部\n\n19\n00:06:50,233 --> 00:07:09,613\n很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師\n\n20\n00:07:11,594 --> 00:07:32,944\n我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師\n\n21\n00:07:34,565 --> 00:07:56,199\n他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的\n\n22\n00:07:56,499 --> 00:08:14,364\n考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯\n\n23\n00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:32,690\n那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題\n\n24\n00:08:35,239 --> 00:08:50,967\n是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎\n\n25\n00:08:52,428 --> 00:09:08,986\n我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個\n\n26\n00:09:14,492 --> 00:09:40,073\n學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說\n\n27\n00:09:41,334 --> 00:10:07,563\n今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以\n\n28\n00:10:08,203 --> 00:10:24,094\n我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教\n\n29\n00:10:24,574 --> 00:10:45,503\n好謝謝我們接下來看一下教育部請回謝謝好接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在\n\n30\n00:10:50,085 --> 00:11:11,190\n許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警\n\n31\n00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:30,974\n我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分\n\n32\n00:11:31,514 --> 00:11:53,735\n非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了\n\n33\n00:11:54,415 --> 00:12:13,250\n所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對\n\n34\n00:12:24,258 --> 00:12:41,446\n那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張\n\n35\n00:12:44,207 --> 00:13:09,140\n就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點\n\n36\n00:13:11,101 --> 00:13:21,295\n黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t1451\t好 謝謝主席 有請司法院 謝謝請王副秘書長\n18210\t22014\t我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法\n37489\t52572\t那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個\n53413\t59177\t粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛\n73727\t88381\t左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的\n91044\t120471\t那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合\n120931\t149284\t第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態\n150785\t159992\t都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款\n169439\t196032\t導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷\n196792\t200760\t就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好 謝謝\n209400\t236368\t我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分\n237648\t265567\t因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為\n266311\t284710\t但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論\n286391\t310145\t好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止\n313687\t337386\t地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少1 1 1 2 2 2這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好 謝謝\n342526\t363519\t市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為\n364660\t385598\t當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛 所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對 那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破\n386258\t405838\t那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部\n410233\t429613\t很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師\n431594\t452944\t我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師\n454565\t476199\t他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的\n476499\t494364\t考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯\n497225\t512690\t那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題\n515239\t530967\t是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎\n532428\t548986\t我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個\n554492\t580073\t學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說\n581334\t607563\t今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以\n608203\t624094\t我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教\n624574\t645503\t好 謝謝我們接下來看一下 教育部請回 謝謝好 接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在\n650085\t671190\t許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警\n671610\t690974\t我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分\n691514\t713735\t非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了\n714415\t733250\t所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對\n744258\t761446\t那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張\n764207\t789140\t就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點\n791101\t801295\t黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請司法院 謝謝請王副秘書長\n我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法\n那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個\n粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛\n左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的\n那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合\n第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態\n都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款\n導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷\n就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好 謝謝\n我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分\n因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為\n但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論\n好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止\n地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少1 1 1 2 2 2這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好 謝謝\n市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為\n當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛 所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對 那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破\n那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部\n很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師\n我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師\n他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的\n考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯\n那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題\n是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎\n我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個\n學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說\n今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以\n我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教\n好 謝謝我們接下來看一下 教育部請回 謝謝好 接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在\n許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警\n我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分\n非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了\n所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對\n那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張\n就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點\n黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:01.451\n好謝謝主席有請司法院謝謝請王副秘書長\n\n00:18.210 --> 00:22.014\n我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法\n\n00:37.489 --> 00:52.572\n那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個\n\n00:53.413 --> 00:59.177\n粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛\n\n01:13.727 --> 01:28.381\n左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的\n\n01:31.044 --> 02:00.471\n那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合\n\n02:00.931 --> 02:29.284\n第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態\n\n02:30.785 --> 02:39.992\n都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款\n\n02:49.439 --> 03:16.032\n導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷\n\n03:16.792 --> 03:20.760\n就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好謝謝\n\n03:29.400 --> 03:56.368\n我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分\n\n03:57.648 --> 04:25.567\n因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為\n\n04:26.311 --> 04:44.710\n但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論\n\n04:46.391 --> 05:10.145\n好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止\n\n05:13.687 --> 05:37.386\n地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少111222這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好謝謝\n\n05:42.526 --> 06:03.519\n市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為\n\n06:04.660 --> 06:25.598\n當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破\n\n06:26.258 --> 06:45.838\n那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部\n\n06:50.233 --> 07:09.613\n很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師\n\n07:11.594 --> 07:32.944\n我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師\n\n07:34.565 --> 07:56.199\n他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的\n\n07:56.499 --> 08:14.364\n考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯\n\n08:17.225 --> 08:32.690\n那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題\n\n08:35.239 --> 08:50.967\n是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎\n\n08:52.428 --> 09:08.986\n我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個\n\n09:14.492 --> 09:40.073\n學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說\n\n09:41.334 --> 10:07.563\n今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以\n\n10:08.203 --> 10:24.094\n我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教\n\n10:24.574 --> 10:45.503\n好謝謝我們接下來看一下教育部請回謝謝好接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在\n\n10:50.085 --> 11:11.190\n許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警\n\n11:11.610 --> 11:30.974\n我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分\n\n11:31.514 --> 11:53.735\n非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了\n\n11:54.415 --> 12:13.250\n所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對\n\n12:24.258 --> 12:41.446\n那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張\n\n12:44.207 --> 13:09.140\n就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點\n\n13:11.101 --> 13:21.295\n黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":1.451,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請司法院 謝謝請王副秘書長"},{"start":18.21,"end":22.014,"text":"我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法"},{"start":37.489,"end":52.572,"text":"那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個"},{"start":53.413,"end":59.177,"text":"粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛"},{"start":73.727,"end":88.381,"text":"左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的"},{"start":91.044,"end":120.471,"text":"那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合"},{"start":120.931,"end":149.284,"text":"第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態"},{"start":150.785,"end":159.992,"text":"都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款"},{"start":169.439,"end":196.032,"text":"導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷"},{"start":196.792,"end":200.76,"text":"就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好 謝謝"},{"start":209.4,"end":236.368,"text":"我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分"},{"start":237.648,"end":265.567,"text":"因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為"},{"start":266.311,"end":284.71,"text":"但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論"},{"start":286.391,"end":310.145,"text":"好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止"},{"start":313.687,"end":337.386,"text":"地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少1 1 1 2 2 2這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好 謝謝"},{"start":342.526,"end":363.519,"text":"市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為"},{"start":364.66,"end":385.598,"text":"當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛 所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對 那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破"},{"start":386.258,"end":405.838,"text":"那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部"},{"start":410.233,"end":429.613,"text":"很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師"},{"start":431.594,"end":452.944,"text":"我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師"},{"start":454.565,"end":476.199,"text":"他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的"},{"start":476.499,"end":494.364,"text":"考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯"},{"start":497.225,"end":512.69,"text":"那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題"},{"start":515.239,"end":530.967,"text":"是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎"},{"start":532.428,"end":548.986,"text":"我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個"},{"start":554.492,"end":580.073,"text":"學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說"},{"start":581.334,"end":607.563,"text":"今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以"},{"start":608.203,"end":624.094,"text":"我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教"},{"start":624.574,"end":645.503,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來看一下 教育部請回 謝謝好 接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在"},{"start":650.085,"end":671.19,"text":"許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警"},{"start":671.61,"end":690.974,"text":"我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分"},{"start":691.514,"end":713.735,"text":"非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了"},{"start":714.415,"end":733.25,"text":"所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對"},{"start":744.258,"end":761.446,"text":"那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張"},{"start":764.207,"end":789.14,"text":"就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點"},{"start":791.101,"end":801.295,"text":"黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時35分）謝謝主席。有請司法院，謝謝。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["陳委員培瑜：副秘書長，早安。我們就快速進入今天的主題，首先，我想要跟你討論的是跟騷法第三條有關跟騷行為的定義，還有構成要件，其實剛剛思瑤委員已經說了，我們認為這個條件太過嚴苛。目前你們是用條列式的方法，我認為它沒有概括條款，我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子，跟你討論為什麼我認為它過於嚴苛。在投影片左手邊彩色的內容，我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個粉絲專頁，他叫做「直男行為研究所」。如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態不在你們的條列當中，這個粉絲專頁絕對是研究的寶庫，但這個寶庫絕對是負面教材，所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛。左邊這一張是行為人，他在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文，他也沒有直接貼給某人，他就是一直貼，但是我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到，這個樣態你應該是清楚的，他也沒有強迫對方要看，可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力，這是第一種樣態。第二種在右上方這一張，行為人他不斷傳訊息給對方，不斷的單方面傳遞訊息，但他很厲害，他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關，它可能是各式各樣的訊息，偶爾穿插一些與性及性別議題有關的訊息，一樣造成對方很大的壓力，但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合。第三個在右下方這一張，有一些行為人並沒有持續或反覆去騷擾特定人，但是他卻持續或反覆騷擾不同的人，一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力，因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息找到我，結果我去網路上一撈，發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為。","我今天舉的只是三種樣態，其實都跟你們條列式的有很大的落差，所以我想要跟副秘書長討論的是：第一個，可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多，但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限，而且沒有概括條款，導致於漏接很多當事人的個案，相信你剛剛也看到了我舉的這些例子。第二個，目前的條文只處理了性及性別有關的跟蹤騷擾，但是跟性及性別無關的騷擾，對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎？從我剛剛舉的這些例子，你大概可以想像。第三個，目前法規中也沒有規範針對反覆或是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷。針對我剛剛舉例這三種樣態，我想知道副秘書長還是內政部要上來回答你們怎麼看？還是要請內政部回答，謝謝。我剛剛舉例的這些樣態，我相信你沒有研究，但也請相信我沒有研究，我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找，結果發現非常容易找到我剛剛說的這些樣態，我想要聽聽看你們的說法。"],["馬次長士元：如果以內政部的立場的話，像剛剛委員所舉的樣態，我們基本上從寬認定，在告誡書的部分警方都可以來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：也可以處理？"],["馬次長士元：可以處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎？我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，因為跟性與性別有關的定義事實上也是相對比較模糊一點，但是如果對被害人造成壓力，或是剛剛我們在報告的時候有提到無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活，基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的行動，用這個方式來嚇阻加害人在這方面的行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是就修法的角度，我認為我們應該有機會，如同你剛剛講的，現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助被害人去處理這個樣態，但是如果有機會放進跟騷法，我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接，當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會時再來討論。"],["馬次長士元：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第十二條有提到所謂跟騷保護令的核發內容，其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計畫，剛剛吳思瑤委員也有問到這一題，目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用，對不對？我們找到你們的統計結果，這是司法院自己做的統計資料。從跟騷法施行到現在為止，地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少，這個數字這麼少，我想知道是因為當事人（被害人）需要先墊付費用，所以他沒有提出申請？還是他們提出申請之後，司法院的法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫？我不知道這些數字背後代表的意義是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個問題我請廳長來回復。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["林廳長俊廷：跟委員報告，剛剛有提到處遇計畫是現行保護令執行面的問題，因為加害人是否需要處遇計畫的裁定可能需要鑑定，曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定，是因為當事人本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料，所以法院就可以直接裁定，除此之外他必須鑑定，關於鑑定，因為我們是準用民事訴訟法，這必須由當事人負擔。"],["陳委員培瑜：對嘛，所以我的猜測是對的，有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這些費用，所以他就沒有提出申請。"],["林廳長俊廷：對，有關當事人墊付的部分，這在現行法制就沒有辦法突破，之前我們在跟內政部及衛福部協商的時候，其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題，內政部也承諾這部分他們會來改善。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們希望有積極的進度，好不好？謝謝。","從跟騷我們來看性別教育，這邊要有請教育部，司法院請稍等一下。很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉，所以才會出現我剛剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言，最近發生關於金門縣金城國中命題的爭議，我相信教育部是非常清楚的，我不確定教育部知不知道現在他們調查委員會對於這個老師的調查結果是什麼？"],["許副司長嘉倩：就我們了解，目前他們的性平調查小組還在調查中，但是他們的教評會已經針對這一次的命題及審題的疏失對教師進行記過的處分，命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月，靜待他們性平調查小組的調查結果。"],["陳委員培瑜：我不知道你手上有沒有相關資料，這個老師從109年開始……這是我們跟你們調的資料，我們調近三到五年的資料，這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教書，他所出的期中考也好，還是期末考的考題也好，我完全沒有辦法唸裡面的文字，因為太過噁心！我要告訴你們的是，從109年開始，這個老師就在學校的考題裡面出現這樣的題目，甚至更可怕的是，這個人還得過十年優良教師。如同你剛剛說的，我認為教評會目前對他是輕輕放下，只有停聘六個月，而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題，我認為這絕對不是個案，這絕對是累犯。所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎？我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會，你們也會尊重地方政府，但我要說這件事情如果不是有家長爆料出來，沒有人會知道原來在金門的金城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師會出這樣的考題。"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，剛剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月，只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘，至於這個老師的不適任處分，在最終性平調查結果之後會再進行一次教評會的審議，那……"],["陳委員培瑜：教育部有追蹤進度嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：有，我們持續在追蹤當中，因為地方主管機關針對學校的性平調查結果，都應該提供相關的諮詢輔導以及監督的機制。另外，教育部目前也有針對這一個案件，預計提到我們性平會的課程組進行討論，針對各個學校考題命題未來要怎麼樣精進或改進，我們會在課程組做進一步的討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯，從你剛剛的回應我也看到了，你說要從個案看通案，但是我也要說這個個案的問題會很嚴重，要拜託教育部持續關切，其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這件事情發生之後，他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說，今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育。但我要提的是，其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了，很多有心的老師也好，或者是家長、志工，他們真的會主動學習，確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好，但就是有像這樣子的害群之馬，讓很多原本很用心、很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見，所以我認為除了對於像這樣不良的個案，我們要積極進行輔導、協助並做出正確的裁處之外，同時也要對於現場第一線非常認真工作，而且貫徹性平理念在不同課程裡面的老師給予獎勵好嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：是，謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，教育部請回。","接下來來看一下關於司法院的過勞環境，等一下我們要討論到預算的部分，我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的，但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分，我們今天不討論個案，但是從他們的個案可以看見目前整個司法體系的過勞，在許院長卸任前的公開信當中，他就呼籲，希望從制度面、人力面，給予司法院更多的協助，期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力，積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境，讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改願景。我想知道，在新任院長上任之前，目前你們是不是已經開始蒐集很多第一線的聲音，然後也開始研擬相關的方案，甚至你們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於員額的部分，或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分，也就是關於改善司法環境的部分？"],["王副秘書長梅英：非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題，確實現在司法院、各法院都面臨人力非常的短缺，所以現在第一線的法院法官，工作過勞的情形很嚴重，而我們的總員額法的1萬5,000名，馬上就已經要用盡了……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我剛才會說，有沒有跟人總進一步討論？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有的，先前有和人總接洽，但是人總希望我們能夠做員額評鑑，這是一個很大的工程，所以先前司法院就委託了學術機構幫我們做組織診斷，這個組織診斷做出來後，事實上，需要調高的數額非常高，所以我們還要繼續……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以目前是有相關數字，而且要調高很多，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：跟您分享一下，我相信你應該有在看這一個臉書專頁，叫做台灣書記官工會，在他們的臉書專頁中，其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦，我就不再贅述。不過，我想你剛剛的回應是非常的正向。","最後的結論，簡單來說，就是新任司法院院長到任之前，我認為很多過勞的環境，透過你們盤點第一線的困境，我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據。接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言，正視這些人員流動所隱含的背後困境，包含他們剛剛分享的那個逃難指數，看起來很諷刺，看起來有點黑色笑話的感覺，但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央政府這邊給予協助的，我們就一起努力，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}}