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0.992}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1230.991, \"end\": 1231.231, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1231.231, \"end\": 1231.352, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1231.352, \"end\": 1231.512, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 1231.512, \"end\": 1231.712, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1231.712, \"end\": 1231.832, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1231.832, \"end\": 1232.232, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1232.232, \"end\": 1232.433, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1232.433, \"end\": 1232.513, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1232.513, \"end\": 1232.533, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,871 --> 00:00:11,972\n好謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後\n\n2\n00:00:38,179 --> 00:00:52,592\n預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把\n\n3\n00:00:53,473 --> 00:01:10,053\n這個水泥窯因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致\n\n4\n00:01:10,894 --> 00:01:38,389\n所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF\n\n5\n00:01:40,411 --> 00:01:52,358\n現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好謝謝\n\n6\n00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:21,071\n向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後\n\n7\n00:02:22,192 --> 00:02:26,134\n好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定\n\n8\n00:02:39,321 --> 00:03:02,807\n那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道我告訴你沒關係這不是很重要糕餅類化妝品酒加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦\n\n9\n00:03:03,871 --> 00:03:26,900\n我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的\n\n10\n00:03:31,042 --> 00:03:32,383\n這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去\n\n11\n00:03:46,335 --> 00:04:14,612\n所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的\n\n12\n00:04:16,133 --> 00:04:34,028\n包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就\n\n13\n00:04:35,273 --> 00:04:40,996\n法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了\n\n14\n00:04:55,626 --> 00:05:04,613\n早就不合時宜了部長你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦我現在草案另外一回事我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜那種\n\n15\n00:05:23,288 --> 00:05:30,152\n茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種\n\n16\n00:05:49,035 --> 00:05:53,517\n現在就不只是那五類了啦那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法那個類型你草案公告了嗎還沒有那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦你回去你沒好啦抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬\n\n17\n00:06:16,104 --> 00:06:20,487\n113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來代表有符合規定才會來嗎\n\n18\n00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:48,463\n業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧\n\n19\n00:07:03,823 --> 00:07:11,668\n因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格\n\n20\n00:07:28,097 --> 00:07:33,480\n112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類俏西人的五類都五成六成四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新\n\n21\n00:07:57,212 --> 00:08:00,573\n大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材\n\n22\n00:08:12,957 --> 00:08:16,680\n包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔\n\n23\n00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:58,424\n禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用\n\n24\n00:09:00,125 --> 00:09:25,247\n要生死的人那個包材都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎部長\n\n25\n00:09:26,741 --> 00:09:43,455\n委員這個我們來檢討好不好這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去溝通完成現在就PVC的管制你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝\n\n26\n00:09:55,985 --> 00:10:11,247\n還有那個管子醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看保庭你看要怎麼管理\n\n27\n00:10:12,336 --> 00:10:37,854\n各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管\n\n28\n00:10:42,290 --> 00:11:03,663\n食品衣材還有全面的禁用包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年2001年2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC\n\n29\n00:11:12,685 --> 00:11:14,566\n那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿現實很骨感\n\n30\n00:11:32,611 --> 00:11:44,595\n你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫你知道叫什麼嗎\n\n31\n00:12:06,362 --> 00:12:26,132\n網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個\n\n32\n00:12:30,115 --> 00:12:46,472\n環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎\n\n33\n00:12:51,161 --> 00:13:05,592\n因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個\n\n34\n00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:13,798\n循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤\n\n35\n00:13:36,295 --> 00:13:47,482\n是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊因為比較用的嘛比較用的可以循環使用啊\n\n36\n00:13:59,370 --> 00:14:19,579\n你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的我們都同意\n\n37\n00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:34,790\n但是在循環經濟循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎4.02次\n\n38\n00:14:39,995 --> 00:15:06,230\n那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔\n\n39\n00:15:10,613 --> 00:15:11,539\n我先看數字好了來\n\n40\n00:15:13,137 --> 00:15:20,822\n台北市喔這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7%循環不到一次一百顆出去了只剩下25.7%新北市26.6%桃園8.6%台中32.0%台南20.2%平均啊23.6%\n\n41\n00:15:41,437 --> 00:15:43,619\n我們都要4.02次4.68次你對環境負擔你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶怎麼辦怎麼辦保證你的政策有問題啊\n\n42\n00:15:58,601 --> 00:16:17,311\n你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升\n\n43\n00:16:18,619 --> 00:16:23,201\n這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好其實沒有啊回收的據點數量分布服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵\n\n44\n00:16:43,226 --> 00:16:51,119\n所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放\n\n45\n00:16:59,164 --> 00:17:21,492\n在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱\n\n46\n00:17:24,073 --> 00:17:44,849\n要以大代小以公代私屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎沒有以公代私你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎部長五十六六十五件六十五件這樣的話推動這個示範計畫\n\n47\n00:17:49,946 --> 00:18:03,083\n這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說\n\n48\n00:18:07,548 --> 00:18:35,183\n實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢除了這些宣示天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖都沒有啊\n\n49\n00:18:36,304 --> 00:19:01,919\n所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範而且是負面的示範負面的啦負面的啦好了幫委員這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論哪幾個所有電商平台他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃他有一個無電面工會\n\n50\n00:19:03,854 --> 00:19:07,678\n有啦人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦\n\n51\n00:19:22,424 --> 00:19:33,092\n比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西我如果要走到屈臣氏我就去網購所以沒有店面的沒有實體通路的\n\n52\n00:19:50,255 --> 00:20:17,398\n那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的\n\n53\n00:20:17,958 --> 00:20:32,533\nOK我知道啦因為那個是以前的報告啦我會再來注意找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦我的19案剛才的19案改為討論事項OK謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦好謝謝接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8871\t11972\t好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後\n38179\t52592\t預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把\n53473\t70053\t這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致\n70894\t98389\t所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF\n100411\t112358\t現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝\n118396\t141071\t向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後\n142192\t146134\t好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定\n159321\t182807\t那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦\n183871\t206900\t我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的\n211042\t212383\t這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個 稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去\n226335\t254612\t所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的\n256133\t274028\t包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就\n275273\t280996\t法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了\n295626\t304613\t早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事 我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品 我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種\n323288\t330152\t茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種\n349035\t353517\t現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法 那個類型你草案公告了嗎 還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你沒好啦 抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案 所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬\n376104\t380487\t113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎\n400920\t408463\t業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧\n423823\t431668\t因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格\n448097\t453480\t112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新\n477212\t480573\t大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材\n492957\t496680\t包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔\n510570\t538424\t禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用\n540125\t565247\t要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長\n566741\t583455\t委員 這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚 隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的 還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝\n595985\t611247\t還有那個管子 醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的 一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理\n612336\t637854\t各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管\n642290\t663663\t食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭 不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC\n672685\t674566\t那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感\n692611\t704595\t你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎\n726362\t746132\t網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個\n750115\t766472\t環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎\n771161\t785592\t因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個\n787333\t793798\t循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤\n816295\t827482\t是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊\n839370\t859579\t你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意\n863160\t874790\t但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次\n879995\t906230\t那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔\n910613\t911539\t我先看數字好了來\n913137\t920822\t台北市喔 這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百顆出去了 只剩下25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均啊 23.6%\n941437\t943619\t我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊\n958601\t977311\t你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升\n978619\t983201\t這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵\n1003226\t1011119\t所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放\n1019164\t1041492\t在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱\n1044073\t1064849\t要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣的話 推動這個示範計畫\n1069946\t1083083\t這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說\n1087548\t1115183\t實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式 還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖 都沒有啊\n1116304\t1141919\t所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範 而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦好了 幫委員 這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊 委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台 他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃 他有一個無電面工會\n1143854\t1147678\t有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦\n1162424\t1173092\t比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的\n1190255\t1217398\t那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的\n1217958\t1232533\tOK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後\n預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把\n這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致\n所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF\n現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝\n向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後\n好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定\n那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦\n我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的\n這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個 稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去\n所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的\n包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就\n法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了\n早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事 我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品 我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種\n茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種\n現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法 那個類型你草案公告了嗎 還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你沒好啦 抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案 所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬\n113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎\n業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧\n因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格\n112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新\n大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材\n包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔\n禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用\n要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長\n委員 這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚 隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的 還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝\n還有那個管子 醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的 一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理\n各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管\n食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭 不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC\n那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感\n你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎\n網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個\n環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎\n因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個\n循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤\n是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊\n你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意\n但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次\n那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔\n我先看數字好了來\n台北市喔 這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百顆出去了 只剩下25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均啊 23.6%\n我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊\n你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升\n這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵\n所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放\n在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱\n要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣的話 推動這個示範計畫\n這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說\n實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式 還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖 都沒有啊\n所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範 而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦好了 幫委員 這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊 委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台 他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃 他有一個無電面工會\n有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦\n比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的\n那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的\nOK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.871 --> 00:11.972\n好謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後\n\n00:38.179 --> 00:52.592\n預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把\n\n00:53.473 --> 01:10.053\n這個水泥窯因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致\n\n01:10.894 --> 01:38.389\n所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF\n\n01:40.411 --> 01:52.358\n現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好謝謝\n\n01:58.396 --> 02:21.071\n向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後\n\n02:22.192 --> 02:26.134\n好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定\n\n02:39.321 --> 03:02.807\n那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道我告訴你沒關係這不是很重要糕餅類化妝品酒加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦\n\n03:03.871 --> 03:26.900\n我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的\n\n03:31.042 --> 03:32.383\n這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去\n\n03:46.335 --> 04:14.612\n所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的\n\n04:16.133 --> 04:34.028\n包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就\n\n04:35.273 --> 04:40.996\n法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了\n\n04:55.626 --> 05:04.613\n早就不合時宜了部長你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦我現在草案另外一回事我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜那種\n\n05:23.288 --> 05:30.152\n茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種\n\n05:49.035 --> 05:53.517\n現在就不只是那五類了啦那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法那個類型你草案公告了嗎還沒有那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦你回去你沒好啦抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬\n\n06:16.104 --> 06:20.487\n113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來代表有符合規定才會來嗎\n\n06:40.920 --> 06:48.463\n業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧\n\n07:03.823 --> 07:11.668\n因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格\n\n07:28.097 --> 07:33.480\n112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類俏西人的五類都五成六成四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新\n\n07:57.212 --> 08:00.573\n大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材\n\n08:12.957 --> 08:16.680\n包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔\n\n08:30.570 --> 08:58.424\n禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用\n\n09:00.125 --> 09:25.247\n要生死的人那個包材都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎部長\n\n09:26.741 --> 09:43.455\n委員這個我們來檢討好不好這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去溝通完成現在就PVC的管制你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝\n\n09:55.985 --> 10:11.247\n還有那個管子醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看保庭你看要怎麼管理\n\n10:12.336 --> 10:37.854\n各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管\n\n10:42.290 --> 11:03.663\n食品衣材還有全面的禁用包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年2001年2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC\n\n11:12.685 --> 11:14.566\n那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿現實很骨感\n\n11:32.611 --> 11:44.595\n你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫你知道叫什麼嗎\n\n12:06.362 --> 12:26.132\n網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個\n\n12:30.115 --> 12:46.472\n環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎\n\n12:51.161 --> 13:05.592\n因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個\n\n13:07.333 --> 13:13.798\n循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤\n\n13:36.295 --> 13:47.482\n是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊因為比較用的嘛比較用的可以循環使用啊\n\n13:59.370 --> 14:19.579\n你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的我們都同意\n\n14:23.160 --> 14:34.790\n但是在循環經濟循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎4.02次\n\n14:39.995 --> 15:06.230\n那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔\n\n15:10.613 --> 15:11.539\n我先看數字好了來\n\n15:13.137 --> 15:20.822\n台北市喔這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7%循環不到一次一百顆出去了只剩下25.7%新北市26.6%桃園8.6%台中32.0%台南20.2%平均啊23.6%\n\n15:41.437 --> 15:43.619\n我們都要4.02次4.68次你對環境負擔你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶怎麼辦怎麼辦保證你的政策有問題啊\n\n15:58.601 --> 16:17.311\n你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升\n\n16:18.619 --> 16:23.201\n這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好其實沒有啊回收的據點數量分布服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵\n\n16:43.226 --> 16:51.119\n所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放\n\n16:59.164 --> 17:21.492\n在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱\n\n17:24.073 --> 17:44.849\n要以大代小以公代私屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎沒有以公代私你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎部長五十六六十五件六十五件這樣的話推動這個示範計畫\n\n17:49.946 --> 18:03.083\n這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說\n\n18:07.548 --> 18:35.183\n實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢除了這些宣示天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖都沒有啊\n\n18:36.304 --> 19:01.919\n所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範而且是負面的示範負面的啦負面的啦好了幫委員這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論哪幾個所有電商平台他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃他有一個無電面工會\n\n19:03.854 --> 19:07.678\n有啦人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦\n\n19:22.424 --> 19:33.092\n比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西我如果要走到屈臣氏我就去網購所以沒有店面的沒有實體通路的\n\n19:50.255 --> 20:17.398\n那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的\n\n20:17.958 --> 20:32.533\nOK我知道啦因為那個是以前的報告啦我會再來注意找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦我的19案剛才的19案改為討論事項OK謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦好謝謝接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.871,"end":11.972,"text":"好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後"},{"start":38.179,"end":52.592,"text":"預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把"},{"start":53.473,"end":70.053,"text":"這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致"},{"start":70.894,"end":98.389,"text":"所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF"},{"start":100.411,"end":112.358,"text":"現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝"},{"start":118.396,"end":141.071,"text":"向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後"},{"start":142.192,"end":146.134,"text":"好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定"},{"start":159.321,"end":182.807,"text":"那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦"},{"start":183.871,"end":206.9,"text":"我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的"},{"start":211.042,"end":212.383,"text":"這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個 稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去"},{"start":226.335,"end":254.612,"text":"所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的"},{"start":256.133,"end":274.028,"text":"包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就"},{"start":275.273,"end":280.996,"text":"法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了"},{"start":295.626,"end":304.613,"text":"早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事 我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品 我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種"},{"start":323.288,"end":330.152,"text":"茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種"},{"start":349.035,"end":353.517,"text":"現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法 那個類型你草案公告了嗎 還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你沒好啦 抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案 所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬"},{"start":376.104,"end":380.487,"text":"113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎"},{"start":400.92,"end":408.463,"text":"業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧"},{"start":423.823,"end":431.668,"text":"因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格"},{"start":448.097,"end":453.48,"text":"112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新"},{"start":477.212,"end":480.573,"text":"大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材"},{"start":492.957,"end":496.68,"text":"包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔"},{"start":510.57,"end":538.424,"text":"禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用"},{"start":540.125,"end":565.247,"text":"要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長"},{"start":566.741,"end":583.455,"text":"委員 這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚 隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的 還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝"},{"start":595.985,"end":611.247,"text":"還有那個管子 醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的 一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理"},{"start":612.336,"end":637.854,"text":"各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管"},{"start":642.29,"end":663.663,"text":"食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭 不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC"},{"start":672.685,"end":674.566,"text":"那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感"},{"start":692.611,"end":704.595,"text":"你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎"},{"start":726.362,"end":746.132,"text":"網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個"},{"start":750.115,"end":766.472,"text":"環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎"},{"start":771.161,"end":785.592,"text":"因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個"},{"start":787.333,"end":793.798,"text":"循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤"},{"start":816.295,"end":827.482,"text":"是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊"},{"start":839.37,"end":859.579,"text":"你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意"},{"start":863.16,"end":874.79,"text":"但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次"},{"start":879.995,"end":906.23,"text":"那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔"},{"start":910.613,"end":911.539,"text":"我先看數字好了來"},{"start":913.137,"end":920.822,"text":"台北市喔 這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百顆出去了 只剩下25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均啊 23.6%"},{"start":941.437,"end":943.619,"text":"我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊"},{"start":958.601,"end":977.311,"text":"你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升"},{"start":978.619,"end":983.201,"text":"這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵"},{"start":1003.226,"end":1011.119,"text":"所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放"},{"start":1019.164,"end":1041.492,"text":"在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱"},{"start":1044.073,"end":1064.849,"text":"要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣的話 推動這個示範計畫"},{"start":1069.946,"end":1083.083,"text":"這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說"},{"start":1087.548,"end":1115.183,"text":"實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式 還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖 都沒有啊"},{"start":1116.304,"end":1141.919,"text":"所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範 而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦好了 幫委員 這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊 委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台 他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃 他有一個無電面工會"},{"start":1143.854,"end":1147.678,"text":"有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦"},{"start":1162.424,"end":1173.092,"text":"比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的"},{"start":1190.255,"end":1217.398,"text":"那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的"},{"start":1217.958,"end":1232.533,"text":"OK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時35分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天的報告事項第(十九)案是本人的提案，你們把它列為報告事項，然後直接提個書面來就要解凍，我覺得是為德不卒，因為我們的解凍要件叫作水泥業空氣污染物排放標準修正草案「預告後」，也就是你們要修正這個法規並預告後，才能把這個書面送進來到立法院，就自動解凍。我給你們的條件很寬鬆，就是你們只要把水泥窯……因為水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生戴奧辛的比例並不低，而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準一致，所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入戴奧辛及氯化氫的標準，要設定出來，有標準以後要預告，你們預告之後送一個書面報告說：「報告立法院，我們已經預告了，水泥窯有戴奧辛標準、有氯化氫的管制標準了，所以水泥窯燃燒SRF現在納管了」，只要送這個報告來，我們就自動解凍，都不用經立法院同意。可是你今天沒有預告、沒有修正，就送一個書面來，然後就自動解凍了，這樣對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員聽我們司長來做一個報告，謝謝。"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，關於這個案子，其實我們在寫書面意見的時候也強調要預告以後，預算才能夠解凍，因為行政院要求我們解凍案要全部一起送，所以我們在解凍的時候不敢說要解凍……"],["林委員淑芬：好，第(十九)案改列為討論事項，因為它並沒有達到報告事項的標準，必須要修正以後。好，這樣OK。","接下來我要討論上一次質詢沒有問到的，就是限制產品過度包裝。部長，你知道我們在94年就公告的「公告限制產品過度包裝」是針對哪5類的商品禮盒去限制嗎？你不知道，我告訴你，因為這不是很重要，就是糕餅類、化妝品、酒、加工食品、電腦程式著作光碟。天啊！限制電腦程式著作光碟不可以包裝過度，連電腦程式著作光碟都快要消失了，不過我不是要跟你講這個。你們在「公告限制產品過度包裝」裡面訂定了包裝幾層、體積比值。經過20年了，這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源、易回收的包裝標記，要減輕環境負擔，要環境友善，你們所有的作為都指向源頭減量，可是這個政策20年了，還這麼地……只剩下口號。而且很荒謬的是，規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節；第二個，稽查的執法效能完全不忍卒睹，讓人看不下去，所以現在源頭減量都是口號而已；管制的範圍狹隘，放任多數包裝浪費。","部長，你也說說看，市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品，包括單瓶的化妝水；單件的衣服；複合產品；多件組合的零食包，包了一層再一層；清潔用品補充包的組合。這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯了包裝用量、廢棄量都超乎環境能夠負荷的，而且政府完全沒有任何規範。在這種狀況底下，你們還限縮在這5類禮盒的狹義定義，法規早就非常地落後了。剛剛講的光碟，連光碟都沒了，你們還在限制它的包裝！這還不是夕陽產品，已經全部都沒了，非常地罕見。我要去找一片光碟，還要看它有沒有包裝，都已經找不到了，早就不合時宜了，部長，你聽到也會笑。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在有一個草案，是不是請署長來說明一下？"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！現在草案是另外一回事，我先跟你講，單元產品和複合產品的包裝有紙類、塑膠盒加熱縮膜、塑膠泡殼加紙板；文具用品、盥洗用品有熱縮膜；茶飲、飲用茶有組合包裝塑膠袋等等。請署長。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在有針對比較多元、複雜的包裝方式提出一個草案，只是這個草案我們還是希望能夠做更多的溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：你們規範的類型有哪幾種？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：現在就不只是那五類了，那個類型……"],["林委員淑芬：你們是怎麼個規範法？你的草案公告了嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：還沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以我們都不知道。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：關於類型的內容部分，我再跟委員這邊來報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！這樣你可以回去了，用不到你了。部長，你們自己都還不知道，也還沒有公告，也還沒有定案，所以你在這裡跟我報告沒有用，我現在要跟你說，你們執行面的荒謬在哪裡。113年度環境部針對市售禮盒產品主動稽查100件，合格率只有64%，其中市面上有36%，超過三成的禮盒公然違規，還有更荒謬的，連業者自己主動送驗的，業者自己送驗的代表有符合規定，它才會送來，業者自己主動送驗的73件禮盒當中，也有10件不符合規定，不合格率是13.7%，連業者自己都知道可能會違規，它還送驗，這麼高的不合格率。所以部長，你知道整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法。"],["林委員淑芬：這個就是資源循環、源頭減量。"],["彭部長啓明：細節、細部的……"],["林委員淑芬：你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量，你們調查過度包裝的稽查件數，109年59.8%不合格，110年20%不合格，113年43%不合格，112年50%不合格，我剛剛講的113年是36%，我的意思是笑死人的那五類都有五成、六成、四成不合格，更不要講新的樣態。新的樣態指的是PC、PVC，PVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康風險，對環境的負擔很重大，大家都知道PVC拿去焚化爐燒會產生戴奧辛，而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境風險這麼威脅的時候，國際都在禁用了。部長聽好，韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材的相關規則，對於包裝空間、包裝層數都有明文規定，而且還規定製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗覆的包裝材料；2001年韓國禁止使用PVC收縮膜，2004年也就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸食品、漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVC，PVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以。部長，韓國很早就限縮了，整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用，洗腎者使用的那些包材又都是PVC，所以環境部針對食品包材、網購商品以外市售產品的PVC包裝，到現在都沒有全面禁止使用，這種對人體有毒、對環境有戴奧辛排放、對環境有害，還要繼續下去嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來檢討，好不好？我們會儘快，因為最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去溝通完成。"],["林委員淑芬：現在就PVC的管制，你認為要管制到哪裡？韓國二十幾年前就有很多限制，臺灣還在落伍，落伍人家二十幾年，還有食品包裝、藥材包裝以及洗腎藥物的包裝，還有醫療用的管子還在用PVC，一般人去提水的白色桶子還在用PVC，塑化劑很嚴重，部長，你看要怎麼管理？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，剛剛提過的那五個包裝，我們是有在檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：五類的一定要檢討，那個就別再說了，笑死人了！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們在網購包裝部分有一個公告，事實上裡面也有針對PVC做管制。"],["林委員淑芬：單元產品和複合式產品一大堆，像山一樣，所以你的草案要仔細思考。我現在要說的聚焦在PVC，我還是要談PVC對健康和環境危害最大，部長，你要怎麼管？對於食品、醫材，還有包裝上的全面禁用有困難嗎？你現在在那邊點頭，不要輕易點頭喔！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們會調查它的使用情形，要減少使用包括……"],["林委員淑芬：我們已經落後了二十幾年，我剛才不是跟你講過韓國了，韓國1993年、2001年、2004年就規定連塗層都不可以含PVC。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來努力，你交代的事我會做。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，我交代的都是必須要的，真的是迫切的，對健康和環境風險有很大的危害。再來，因為你一直在講循環，可是你們的循環包裝政策是理想很豐滿、現實很骨感，你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性包材的依賴，尤其要實現循環經濟，達成包裝減量的目標。尤其是大家都知道網購，大家網購都買很多，我自己也很不愛網購，但是就是很需要網購，每次網購一來，它的紙箱、它的包材，我在想我到底可以拿去哪裡回收，你們也有一個試辦計畫，你知道叫什麼嗎？部長，你不知道喔？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道，名字忘記了。"],["林委員淑芬：網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式，你們設定了循環箱、循環袋的使用率目標，你們跟屈臣氏有一個合作計畫，叫做配客嘉網購循環示範計畫，你們自己部裡面做了示範，你們還有一個環境部團購循環箱示範計畫，可是我剛剛講政策很理想，現實不堪卒睹，你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為那個成本比較高，我們現在有一個公告，那是1.0版，等於是我們把第一次試辦變成法令化，現在要更進階，有一個2.0版，現在也在試辦當中，會從……"],["林委員淑芬：我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題，第一個，循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸，本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用，可是你們的環保美意不但沒有達到這個目標，還蕩然無存的更浪費資源，而且排碳更多。信封型循環袋的總環境負擔，它的碳排放量是1.32KG，碳足跡數值及碳排放是1.32公斤，是一般袋子0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍，意思就是一般的信封袋和循環袋，你們的碳排放量是人家的3.77倍，沒關係，如果比較耐用的話就可以循環使用；你們循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG，是一般箱子的4.39倍。可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材環境負擔的主要來源，所以它就是要耐用，而且要重複使用，在初期生產階段的環境負擔是比較高的，我們都同意，但是在循環經濟、循環使用以後，知道一個信封袋要循環幾次，才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平、打平嗎？你知道要幾次嗎？4.02次。如果是循環箱要循環幾次才能夠跟網購的一般紙箱打平，它的環境負擔才能打平？要循環4.68次，但是部長，這個政策你沒有追蹤，你知道你的信封型循環袋，還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎？部長，你知道嗎？你不知道喔！我先看數字好了，臺北市循環箱歸還率25.7%，不是100%喔！一個箱子歸還回來25.7%，循環不到一次，100箱出去只回來25.7箱，新北市26.6%、桃園8.6%、臺中32.0%、臺南20.2%，平均23.6%，你們說要使用4.02次、4.68次，對環境負擔的成本才能夠將打平，它是不到一次，怎麼辦？部長，你的政策有問題啊！你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6%，你們覺得問題在哪裡，你知道嗎？因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩，大家就沒有意願，間接地導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升，這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收？你們說這樣便利回收試辦計畫很好，其實沒有啊！回收的據點、數量、分布、服務時間都不能夠滿足民眾的需求，所以願意使用而且歸還循環包材的消費者和業者，你們沒有辦法提供足夠且具有吸引力的實質獎勵，連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有，要怎麼循環？所以你的循環變成口號而已，口號啊！循環箱在初期的碳排放這麼高的狀況裡面，想要達到你的目標，根本就是天方夜譚，你的政策推動零散、沒有系統性規劃是失敗的，而且你們在講停留在零星的業者自主試辦及部裡面自己的團購，你們宣稱要以大帶小、以公帶私，屈臣氏的系統叫以大帶小嗎？大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎？沒有！以公帶私，你們環境部的網購循環，幾個人參加、幾次，部長，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不多。"],["林委員淑芬：65件，這樣有辦法推動試辦計畫喔？這個計畫是先在環境部和大型業者推廣使用，再逐步擴展到全社會，建立起一個涵蓋電商平臺、物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統，你們要實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用，以上我唸的都是你們政策宣示的目標，但是除了這些宣示、這些天方夜譚以外，你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模、系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎？你的營運模式及產業生態鏈能不能提出具體的政策藍圖？都沒有啊！所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範，而且是失敗的示範、負面的示範，負面的啦！負面的啦！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，最近在我上任之後，過去一年有好幾次跟電商平臺在討論這件事，委員說的的確是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你們跟幾個電商平臺在討論？哪幾個？"],["彭部長啓明：所有電商平臺，他們有一個協會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：現在有誰做了？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼協會？"],["彭部長啓明：他們有一個無店面公會。"],["林委員淑芬：有啦！人家momo電商也有啦！"],["彭部長啓明：它自己做……"],["林委員淑芬：momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟的社區資源回收站，很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站在哪裡，但是momo也意思、意思地做了，比你們做得更好啦！因為你們是網購屈臣氏的東西寄到你們家，然後再把這個箱子拿去屈臣氏，我如果要去屈臣氏，為什麼我還需要網購屈臣氏呢？你聽得懂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊！我買了東西後，還需要走到屈臣氏還箱子，我何需網購，對不對？"],["主席：對啦，脫褲子放屁。"],["林委員淑芬：所以沒有店面的、沒有實體通路的，momo是這樣做，但是還有一種蝦皮店到店，蝦皮店到店回收很方便啊！建置一個系統，刷一下、放進去，蝦皮店到店很多人在用啊！"],["主席：這部分一個禮拜內提出報告，好嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以你自己做出這種……"],["主席：提出報告啦！這樣就對了。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員淑芬：你提這種政策，真的是有夠好笑的，部長。這件是你自己沒有管到的、lose掉了啦！"],["彭部長啓明：OK，我知道。因為那個是以前的報告，我會再來注意，找一天跟委員再特別報告。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我剛才的第（十九）案改為討論事項。"],["彭部長啓明：好、好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：不要再讓林委員笑了啦！好，謝謝。","接下來請涂權吉委員。涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員不在。","請陳瑩委員質詢。我們12點5分會處理解凍案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}}