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392.862, \"text\": \"從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 375.429, \"end\": 375.609, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 375.609, \"end\": 375.79, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 375.79, \"end\": 376.33, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 376.33, \"end\": 376.51, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 376.51, \"end\": 376.89, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 376.89, \"end\": 377.07, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 377.07, \"end\": 377.411, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 377.411, \"end\": 377.531, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 377.531, \"end\": 377.651, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 377.651, \"end\": 377.831, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"全\", 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{\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 555.168, \"end\": 555.468, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 555.468, \"end\": 555.488, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:04,854\n謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員長安好\n\n2\n00:00:21,758 --> 00:00:38,307\n想請教一下我們的副秘書長最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是是知道\n\n3\n00:00:39,267 --> 00:00:56,439\n他是說詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者\n\n4\n00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:26,614\n減輕其刑那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪實際取得的個人所得而言他行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭刑事大法庭的裁定呢\n\n5\n00:01:28,252 --> 00:01:47,996\n跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的\n\n6\n00:01:48,396 --> 00:01:58,830\n好我要跟那個當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關各位上來一下\n\n7\n00:02:01,896 --> 00:02:26,440\n是委員好這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達因為這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害\n\n8\n00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:53,092\n所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定有它解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定好謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來\n\n9\n00:02:54,585 --> 00:03:20,927\n你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開\n\n10\n00:03:22,455 --> 00:03:35,563\n你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到\n\n11\n00:03:43,462 --> 00:04:08,921\n我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天\n\n12\n00:04:10,507 --> 00:04:25,639\n另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多\n\n13\n00:04:36,969 --> 00:05:04,708\n但是有80.7%8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦\n\n14\n00:05:07,069 --> 00:05:34,499\n那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害\n\n15\n00:05:36,684 --> 00:05:42,850\n副部長是不是?市長是嘛沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就\n\n16\n00:05:44,184 --> 00:06:12,650\n裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎\n\n17\n00:06:15,429 --> 00:06:32,862\n從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊\n\n18\n00:06:33,802 --> 00:06:59,742\n所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好洗得夠好的話\n\n19\n00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:25,676\n所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊\n\n20\n00:07:26,776 --> 00:07:31,464\n看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢你要證明我拿到錢啊\n\n21\n00:07:32,998 --> 00:07:58,289\n那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候\n\n22\n00:07:59,397 --> 00:08:08,474\n那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑\n\n23\n00:08:09,591 --> 00:08:36,552\n所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個\n\n24\n00:08:37,487 --> 00:09:06,947\n不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好\n\n25\n00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:15,488\n好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t4854\t謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員長安好\n21758\t38307\t想請教一下我們的副秘書長 最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是 是 知道\n39267\t56439\t他是說 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者\n57679\t86614\t減輕其刑 那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪實際取得的個人所得而言他行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭 刑事大法庭的裁定呢\n88252\t107996\t跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的\n108396\t118830\t好 我要跟那個 當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關 各位上來一下\n121896\t146440\t是委員好 這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達因為這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害\n147040\t173092\t所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定有它解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定好 謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來\n174585\t200927\t你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開\n202455\t215563\t你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到\n223462\t248921\t我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天\n250507\t265639\t另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多\n276969\t304708\t但是有80.7% 8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦\n307069\t334499\t那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害\n336684\t342850\t副部長是不是?市長是嘛 沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就\n344184\t372650\t裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎\n375429\t392862\t從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊\n393802\t419742\t所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好 洗得夠好的話\n420580\t445676\t所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊\n446776\t451464\t看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢 你要證明我拿到錢啊\n452998\t478289\t那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候\n479397\t488474\t那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑\n489591\t516552\t所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個\n517487\t546947\t不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好\n547639\t555488\t好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員長安好\n想請教一下我們的副秘書長 最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是 是 知道\n他是說 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者\n減輕其刑 那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪實際取得的個人所得而言他行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭 刑事大法庭的裁定呢\n跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的\n好 我要跟那個 當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關 各位上來一下\n是委員好 這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達因為這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害\n所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定有它解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定好 謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來\n你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開\n你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到\n我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天\n另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多\n但是有80.7% 8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦\n那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害\n副部長是不是?市長是嘛 沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就\n裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎\n從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊\n所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好 洗得夠好的話\n所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊\n看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢 你要證明我拿到錢啊\n那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候\n那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑\n所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個\n不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好\n好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:04.854\n謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員長安好\n\n00:21.758 --> 00:38.307\n想請教一下我們的副秘書長最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是是知道\n\n00:39.267 --> 00:56.439\n他是說詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者\n\n00:57.679 --> 01:26.614\n減輕其刑那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪實際取得的個人所得而言他行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭刑事大法庭的裁定呢\n\n01:28.252 --> 01:47.996\n跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的\n\n01:48.396 --> 01:58.830\n好我要跟那個當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關各位上來一下\n\n02:01.896 --> 02:26.440\n是委員好這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達因為這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害\n\n02:27.040 --> 02:53.092\n所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定有它解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定好謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來\n\n02:54.585 --> 03:20.927\n你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開\n\n03:22.455 --> 03:35.563\n你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到\n\n03:43.462 --> 04:08.921\n我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天\n\n04:10.507 --> 04:25.639\n另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多\n\n04:36.969 --> 05:04.708\n但是有80.7%8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦\n\n05:07.069 --> 05:34.499\n那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害\n\n05:36.684 --> 05:42.850\n副部長是不是?市長是嘛沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就\n\n05:44.184 --> 06:12.650\n裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎\n\n06:15.429 --> 06:32.862\n從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊\n\n06:33.802 --> 06:59.742\n所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好洗得夠好的話\n\n07:00.580 --> 07:25.676\n所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊\n\n07:26.776 --> 07:31.464\n看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢你要證明我拿到錢啊\n\n07:32.998 --> 07:58.289\n那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候\n\n07:59.397 --> 08:08.474\n那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑\n\n08:09.591 --> 08:36.552\n所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個\n\n08:37.487 --> 09:06.947\n不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好\n\n09:07.639 --> 09:15.488\n好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":4.854,"text":"謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員長安好"},{"start":21.758,"end":38.307,"text":"想請教一下我們的副秘書長 最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是 是 知道"},{"start":39.267,"end":56.439,"text":"他是說 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者"},{"start":57.679,"end":86.614,"text":"減輕其刑 那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪實際取得的個人所得而言他行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭 刑事大法庭的裁定呢"},{"start":88.252,"end":107.996,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的"},{"start":108.396,"end":118.83,"text":"好 我要跟那個 當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關 各位上來一下"},{"start":121.896,"end":146.44,"text":"是委員好 這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達因為這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害"},{"start":147.04,"end":173.092,"text":"所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定有它解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定好 謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來"},{"start":174.585,"end":200.927,"text":"你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開"},{"start":202.455,"end":215.563,"text":"你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到"},{"start":223.462,"end":248.921,"text":"我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天"},{"start":250.507,"end":265.639,"text":"另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多"},{"start":276.969,"end":304.708,"text":"但是有80.7% 8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦"},{"start":307.069,"end":334.499,"text":"那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害"},{"start":336.684,"end":342.85,"text":"副部長是不是?市長是嘛 沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就"},{"start":344.184,"end":372.65,"text":"裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎"},{"start":375.429,"end":392.862,"text":"從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊"},{"start":393.802,"end":419.742,"text":"所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好 洗得夠好的話"},{"start":420.58,"end":445.676,"text":"所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊"},{"start":446.776,"end":451.464,"text":"看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢 你要證明我拿到錢啊"},{"start":452.998,"end":478.289,"text":"那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候"},{"start":479.397,"end":488.474,"text":"那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑"},{"start":489.591,"end":516.552,"text":"所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個"},{"start":517.487,"end":546.947,"text":"不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好"},{"start":547.639,"end":555.488,"text":"好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時54分）謝謝主席的誇獎，有請司法院王副秘書長，還有法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請王副秘書長還有黃次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：想請教一下我們的副秘書長，最高法院刑事大法庭今年5月14號做了113年度台上大字第4096號裁定，你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，知道。"],["羅委員智強：裡面是說，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條前段規定，犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白，如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者，減輕其刑，其所稱的犯罪所得，是指行為人因犯罪的實際取得的個人所得而言，倘行為人並未實際取得個人所得，僅需於偵查及歷次審判中均自白，即合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件。副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次刑事大法庭的裁定呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，大法庭所做的那個裁定也是屬於最高法院有關於審判職權行使的一部分，所以他們在這個部分所做的裁定內容，他們在理由中也有說明他們所依據的法理，對於這個部分，我們司法行政是尊重的。"],["羅委員智強：好，當然你要尊重大法庭的裁定，可是我也要請教一下次長，甚至包括警政署，警政署要不要上來一下？"],["黃次長世杰：委員好，剛才王委員也有垂詢，我們也表達了，事實上，在最高法院大法庭的言詞辯論過程中，本部所屬最高檢察署代表出席的時候已經有堅定的表達，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條的立法理由有很明確的表明其立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害，所以我們並不認同後來大法庭所做這個裁定的見解。但是因為依照制度，這個大法庭的裁定有其解釋上的拘束力，所以我們也會儘速來研議相關的修法，讓法條的文字更加的明確，讓所謂犯罪所得的定義能夠依照立法目的來認定。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝次長。我們現在請副秘書長，我為什麼要請次長跟警政署上來？因為現在在臺灣詐欺真的已經成為國恥，包括檢察系統，包括我們的警政系統，警察單位很努力的在前線打詐，把詐騙犯繩之以法，可是當繩之以法後交到司法系統去進行判決的時候，如果這邊一直把洞打開，就會造成前端我們很多在前線打詐的同仁在作業上非常大的困擾。我先講，這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的，為什麼呢？我們先講現在判決的實際狀況，減刑好像變成是某種贖罪券，在沒有辦法達到剛剛次長講的填補受害者所受損失的情況之下，他還是可以獲得減刑，說真的，當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補其損失來作為減刑的一個條件，結果他不需要受害者的損失受到填補也一樣可以獲得減刑，那就會造成另外某種程度是在鼓勵詐欺犯罪。","我們舉個例子，詐欺犯跟車手的刑責目前多半是落在1年到1年2個月之間，很多可以獲得緩刑或易科罰金，根據法務部的統計資料顯示，自2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬個詐欺犯，看起來數字是非常多，但是有80.7%、8.9萬人是涉及電信詐欺的案件，有43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或者是拘役，如果是單純提供人頭帳戶被定罪，輕判的比例大概是98%。坦白講，在我們這邊詐欺所要付出的代價是蠻輕的，還能夠透過我們大法庭的解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑這樣的規定，說真的，難怪有人說臺灣是詐騙天堂啦！","另外，剛剛其實次長也已經講到了，我們詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條前段的立法目的是非常明確的，它其實有一個核心重心，就是要填補被害人的損害，副秘書長，是不是這樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：次長，是這樣沒錯嘛？可是今天大法庭對這個裁定的解釋就推翻了這個原則啊！變成今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬，如果沒有取得報酬，他只要自白就可以獲得減刑。那問題來了！請問在這種情況之下，犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎？被填補了嗎？請問副秘書長，就這兩個條件，如果照我們刑事大法庭的裁定，有被補償嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：從被害人這個角度來看的話，是沒有全部獲得補償。"],["羅委員智強：幾乎沒有啦！依照過去的例子，我請次長來回答，這個做下去能夠填補多少？5%、1%還是0.2%？有些人跟我講「我的犯罪所得就2,000」，被害人總共被詐騙了1,000萬，可是他卻說犯罪所得只有2,000啊！"],["黃次長世杰：是，所以我們不認同這樣子的認定，因為我們對所謂的犯罪所得是傾向於採取的態度，假設他是共犯的話，就是要共同承擔，而不是只有他個人的部分，而且這個部分也相當難以查證，所以我們是不同意這樣的見解。"],["羅委員智強：其實剛剛次長講到一個重點，就是很難查證，他今天跟你講「我的犯罪所得只有2,000」，如果他把錢藏得夠好、洗得夠好的話，你要怎麼去釐清他的犯罪所得到底是多少？因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官表示高度疑慮，他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了，容易到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去減就好了，不必用這種方式來減。另外，實際上有很多詐欺共犯幾乎都會認罪，但是對真正的犯罪所得常常就低報，他也不會老實跟你講他的犯罪所得是多少，甚至直接跟你講「我就是沒拿到錢」，就看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊！我說我沒拿到錢，你要證明我拿到錢啊！我覺得跟今天就是要填補被害人所受損害的立法目的相去十萬八千里，所以我要這樣講，說真的，我覺得今天這個裁定是有一點不食人間煙火。","最後，有時候被詐騙的金額高達上百萬甚至上千萬，那法院今天只有看到片面，他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到的犯罪所得非常低的時候，他就因此減刑，那你要不要看看那些被騙了幾百萬、上千萬的受害者？你覺得他的心情會是什麼？他會怎麼看待只要這樣就可以減刑的判決？因此我要說的是，今天這個其實已經變成我們反詐的一個破口，剛剛次長也有提到，所以拜託司法院還有法務部能夠好好看要怎麼樣把這個破口補起來，否則我覺得真的是很對不起很多被詐騙的民眾，他們在被詐騙以後所受的損害如此龐大，造成身心有很大的陰影，甚至造成家庭很大的不和，乃至於未來在生活上產生很大的困難。我自己在選區跑的時候有遇到很多被詐騙的民眾，基本上，到最後錢都追不回來，真的都追不回來，很難追回來，結果他們還看到只要這樣就可以減刑，有時候他們甚至可能也不期待錢被追回來，大家看到詐欺犯因為說沒拿到錢就被減刑，坦白講，真的是情何以堪啊！所以拜託對這個漏洞看看在法律上要怎麼去做，把它補起來好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們會照我們剛剛所說的，會儘速啟動修法的文字，然後把它補起來。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員。","我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本會。委員張雅琳、邱鎮軍、林倩綺、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}}