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{\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 414.16, \"end\": 414.84, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 414.84, \"end\": 414.96, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 414.96, \"end\": 415.22, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 415.22, \"end\": 415.42, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 415.42, \"end\": 415.62, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 415.62, \"end\": 416.24, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 416.24, \"end\": 416.46, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 416.46, \"end\": 417.221, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 417.221, \"end\": 417.341, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 417.341, \"end\": 417.421, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 417.421, \"end\": 417.481, \"score\": 0.423}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 417.481, \"end\": 417.601, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 417.601, \"end\": 417.701, 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432.943, \"end\": 432.963, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 434.401, \"end\": 454.617, \"text\": \"因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 434.401, \"end\": 436.723, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 436.723, \"end\": 437.003, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 437.003, \"end\": 437.223, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 437.223, \"end\": 437.504, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"固\", \"start\": 437.504, \"end\": 437.684, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 437.684, \"end\": 437.904, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 437.904, \"end\": 438.064, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 438.064, \"end\": 438.224, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 438.224, \"end\": 438.444, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 438.444, \"end\": 438.584, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"目\", 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--> 00:00:04,784\n我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,793 --> 00:00:35,789\n陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案\n\n3\n00:00:42,895 --> 00:01:03,704\n不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來\n\n4\n00:01:06,505 --> 00:01:24,053\n一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄\n\n5\n00:01:25,353 --> 00:01:52,162\n那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年4月的时候赖盈营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间\n\n6\n00:01:53,022 --> 00:02:15,153\n參與了這個溝通還有這個計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍\n\n7\n00:02:16,634 --> 00:02:43,747\n所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝\n\n8\n00:02:45,848 --> 00:03:12,667\n好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8維克立方公尺相較於2013年的24維克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論\n\n9\n00:03:14,208 --> 00:03:35,614\n事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都\n\n10\n00:03:41,715 --> 00:03:55,965\n可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員\n\n11\n00:03:56,525 --> 00:04:18,639\n其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於也是2.5微克的這個micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般\n\n12\n00:04:20,020 --> 00:04:33,572\n對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主\n\n13\n00:04:35,313 --> 00:05:01,372\n例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌\n\n14\n00:05:03,954 --> 00:05:20,053\n幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候\n\n15\n00:05:21,354 --> 00:05:48,679\n他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝\n\n16\n00:05:49,739 --> 00:06:18,648\n那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分\n\n17\n00:06:19,949 --> 00:06:33,147\n環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握\n\n18\n00:06:35,276 --> 00:06:59,021\n因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠\n\n19\n00:06:59,721 --> 00:07:12,963\n因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少\n\n20\n00:07:14,401 --> 00:07:34,617\n因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估\n\n21\n00:07:35,558 --> 00:07:48,303\n那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說\n\n22\n00:07:51,044 --> 00:08:15,696\n我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的\n\n23\n00:08:17,137 --> 00:08:28,806\n馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定\n\n24\n00:08:34,831 --> 00:09:02,470\n讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒\n\n25\n00:09:05,432 --> 00:09:26,047\n就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準\n\n26\n00:09:26,948 --> 00:09:35,503\n這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行\n\n27\n00:09:36,698 --> 00:09:59,471\n好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢\n\n28\n00:10:01,127 --> 00:10:26,130\n因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有\n\n29\n00:10:27,666 --> 00:10:47,785\n因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳\n\n30\n00:10:49,757 --> 00:11:07,314\n呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效\n\n31\n00:11:09,313 --> 00:11:23,363\n包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm\n\n32\n00:11:24,864 --> 00:11:47,518\n所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是\n\n33\n00:11:49,031 --> 00:12:01,687\n你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主\n\n34\n00:12:02,598 --> 00:12:28,528\n那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪\n\n35\n00:12:30,382 --> 00:12:58,199\n僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分\n\n36\n00:12:58,939 --> 00:13:03,369\n好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回應喔謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔抱歉喔來請葉恩之委員來做詢問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3842\t4784\t我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長\n16793\t35789\t陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案\n42895\t63704\t不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來\n66505\t84053\t一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄\n85353\t112162\t那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年4月的时候赖盈营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间\n113022\t135153\t參與了這個溝通還有這個計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍\n136634\t163747\t所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝\n165848\t192667\t好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8維克立方公尺相較於2013年的24維克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論\n194208\t215614\t事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都\n221715\t235965\t可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員\n236525\t258639\t其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於也是2.5微克的這個micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物 氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般\n260020\t273572\t對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主\n275313\t301372\t例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌\n303954\t320053\t幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候\n321354\t348679\t他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝\n349739\t378648\t那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分\n379949\t393147\t環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握\n395276\t419021\t因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠\n419721\t432963\t因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少\n434401\t454617\t因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估\n455558\t468303\t那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說\n471044\t495696\t我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的\n497137\t508806\t馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定\n514831\t542470\t讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒\n545432\t566047\t就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準\n566948\t575503\t這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行\n576698\t599471\t好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢\n601127\t626130\t因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有\n627666\t647785\t因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳\n649757\t667314\t呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效\n669313\t683363\t包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm\n684864\t707518\t所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是\n709031\t721687\t你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主\n722598\t748528\t那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪\n750382\t778199\t僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分\n778939\t783369\t好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 請回應喔 謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔 抱歉喔 來請葉恩之委員來做詢問\n","txt":"我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長\n陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案\n不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來\n一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄\n那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年4月的时候赖盈营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间\n參與了這個溝通還有這個計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍\n所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝\n好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8維克立方公尺相較於2013年的24維克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論\n事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都\n可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員\n其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於也是2.5微克的這個micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物 氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般\n對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主\n例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌\n幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候\n他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝\n那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分\n環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握\n因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠\n因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少\n因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估\n那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說\n我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的\n馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定\n讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒\n就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準\n這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行\n好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢\n因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有\n因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳\n呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效\n包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm\n所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是\n你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主\n那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪\n僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分\n好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 請回應喔 謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔 抱歉喔 來請葉恩之委員來做詢問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.842 --> 00:04.784\n我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長\n\n00:16.793 --> 00:35.789\n陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案\n\n00:42.895 --> 01:03.704\n不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來\n\n01:06.505 --> 01:24.053\n一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄\n\n01:25.353 --> 01:52.162\n那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年4月的时候赖盈营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间\n\n01:53.022 --> 02:15.153\n參與了這個溝通還有這個計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍\n\n02:16.634 --> 02:43.747\n所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝\n\n02:45.848 --> 03:12.667\n好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8維克立方公尺相較於2013年的24維克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論\n\n03:14.208 --> 03:35.614\n事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都\n\n03:41.715 --> 03:55.965\n可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員\n\n03:56.525 --> 04:18.639\n其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於也是2.5微克的這個micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般\n\n04:20.020 --> 04:33.572\n對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主\n\n04:35.313 --> 05:01.372\n例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌\n\n05:03.954 --> 05:20.053\n幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候\n\n05:21.354 --> 05:48.679\n他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝\n\n05:49.739 --> 06:18.648\n那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分\n\n06:19.949 --> 06:33.147\n環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握\n\n06:35.276 --> 06:59.021\n因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠\n\n06:59.721 --> 07:12.963\n因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少\n\n07:14.401 --> 07:34.617\n因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估\n\n07:35.558 --> 07:48.303\n那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說\n\n07:51.044 --> 08:15.696\n我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的\n\n08:17.137 --> 08:28.806\n馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定\n\n08:34.831 --> 09:02.470\n讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒\n\n09:05.432 --> 09:26.047\n就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準\n\n09:26.948 --> 09:35.503\n這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行\n\n09:36.698 --> 09:59.471\n好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢\n\n10:01.127 --> 10:26.130\n因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有\n\n10:27.666 --> 10:47.785\n因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳\n\n10:49.757 --> 11:07.314\n呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效\n\n11:09.313 --> 11:23.363\n包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm\n\n11:24.864 --> 11:47.518\n所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是\n\n11:49.031 --> 12:01.687\n你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主\n\n12:02.598 --> 12:28.528\n那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪\n\n12:30.382 --> 12:58.199\n僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分\n\n12:58.939 --> 13:03.369\n好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回應喔謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔抱歉喔來請葉恩之委員來做詢問\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.842,"end":4.784,"text":"我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長"},{"start":16.793,"end":35.789,"text":"陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案"},{"start":42.895,"end":63.704,"text":"不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來"},{"start":66.505,"end":84.053,"text":"一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄"},{"start":85.353,"end":112.162,"text":"那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年4月的时候赖盈营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间"},{"start":113.022,"end":135.153,"text":"參與了這個溝通還有這個計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍"},{"start":136.634,"end":163.747,"text":"所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":165.848,"end":192.667,"text":"好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8維克立方公尺相較於2013年的24維克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論"},{"start":194.208,"end":215.614,"text":"事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都"},{"start":221.715,"end":235.965,"text":"可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員"},{"start":236.525,"end":258.639,"text":"其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於也是2.5微克的這個micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物 氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般"},{"start":260.02,"end":273.572,"text":"對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主"},{"start":275.313,"end":301.372,"text":"例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌"},{"start":303.954,"end":320.053,"text":"幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候"},{"start":321.354,"end":348.679,"text":"他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝"},{"start":349.739,"end":378.648,"text":"那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分"},{"start":379.949,"end":393.147,"text":"環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握"},{"start":395.276,"end":419.021,"text":"因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠"},{"start":419.721,"end":432.963,"text":"因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少"},{"start":434.401,"end":454.617,"text":"因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估"},{"start":455.558,"end":468.303,"text":"那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說"},{"start":471.044,"end":495.696,"text":"我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的"},{"start":497.137,"end":508.806,"text":"馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定"},{"start":514.831,"end":542.47,"text":"讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒"},{"start":545.432,"end":566.047,"text":"就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準"},{"start":566.948,"end":575.503,"text":"這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行"},{"start":576.698,"end":599.471,"text":"好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢"},{"start":601.127,"end":626.13,"text":"因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有"},{"start":627.666,"end":647.785,"text":"因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳"},{"start":649.757,"end":667.314,"text":"呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效"},{"start":669.313,"end":683.363,"text":"包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm"},{"start":684.864,"end":707.518,"text":"所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是"},{"start":709.031,"end":721.687,"text":"你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主"},{"start":722.598,"end":748.528,"text":"那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪"},{"start":750.382,"end":778.199,"text":"僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分"},{"start":778.939,"end":783.369,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 請回應喔 謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔 抱歉喔 來請葉恩之委員來做詢問"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":925,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時55分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事，謝謝部長幫助我們臺東，特別是掩埋場的問題，其實我們有很漂亮的風景，整個海岸線很漂亮，也謝謝部長表達立場，對於破壞環境的開發案不予以支持。再來就是都歷掩埋場的部分，那天大家去曬太陽、聞那個惡臭，即便我們離開了，那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞，久久無法散去，我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持改善掩埋場的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：再來一個很重要的部分，這個要大大地肯定部長，我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵，我們沒有回收業是不行的，可是大家對於這個行業又很嫌棄，導致這些回收業者常常被趕到山邊、海邊，最後就卡在環保用地，換句話說，就是沒有工廠登記證。在去年4月的時候，賴瑩瑩署長帶著兩個組長、兩個科長及一位非常優秀的世銓技正一起把整個計畫做出來，當然我們辦公室也花很多的力氣跟時間參與溝通及計畫撰寫，最後通過勞動部的同意，讓這批沒有廠登的資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工，作為行政院「5+2」的創新產業，對循環經濟的部分，也增添了生力軍，所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情，也謝謝賴署長，也希望部長能夠繼續支持、照顧回收業者及從業人員，重視外籍勞工的職安及勞動條件等等，本席在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：另外，最近我們為了臺灣空氣品質的亞洲排名，部長，以2024年臺灣PM2.5的平均濃度，已經下降到12.8微克/立方公尺，相較於2013年的24微克有明顯改善，並且也呼籲大家少說「用肺發電」這樣的詞彙，引起了一些關注跟討論。事實上數據會說話，我們的空氣品質指標PM2.5的確是有下降，這也是不爭的事實，只是這個指標難道只有PM2.5嗎？其他空氣中的臭氧、懸浮微粒，還有一氧化碳、二氧化硫以及二氧化氮等等這些濃度的數值也都可以根據對人體健康及影響程度，分別換算出不同污染物的空氣品質指標，我想要請教部長，其他的污染指標是否也有一起下降呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們用PM2.5，因為PM2.5它有直接的排放，等於是2.5微克（microgram）的小微粒，它對身體直接吸到肺泡，衝擊是非常大，所以一般PM2.5包含直接的排放及衍生性的，衍生性包含硫氧化物、氮氧化物等等懸浮微粒都算在這個裡面，所以我們一般對於認知空氣污染，就是以PM2.5作為一個代表。至於SOx、NOx有沒有單獨的危害？因為每一個特性是不一樣的，所以我們現在以空氣污染學對健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主，例如說發電業，它的硫氧化物大概占四成，但是它的氮氧化物只有16%，汽、機車就占了百分之五十幾，所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣，我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這樣大概有一些概念。部長，你目前希望掛牌成立空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊？上半年度有沒有機會掛牌？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們這個是從空品的政策白皮書來的，預報同仁已經移到大氣司一起協同運作了，我們希望他們運作順利之後，再來正式掛牌。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你大概預估什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：他們現在就已經在大氣司了，原來監資司移到大氣司去做預報了，所以目前……"],["陳委員瑩：掛牌……"],["彭部長啓明：掛牌現在等我們確定一個時間，但是他們彼此的……因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司，我們現在就是希望他們有一些特別的使命，目前來說的話，大概還要等一段時間運作妥當，特別有一些新的產品出來之後……"],["陳委員瑩：所以今年大概沒機會？"],["彭部長啓明：會會會，我們今年一定會做。"],["陳委員瑩：今年會？"],["彭部長啓明：一定會做。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。我覺得之所以會引起關注，主要是火力發電最近有比較多使用，煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物，包括懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明確的影響，煤炭的品質其實影響很大，火力發電設備的燃燒效率也非常重要，這個部分環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫，然後主動掌握？就是說能不能做得更好，讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有評估跟掌握？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為每一個大的煙囪都有裝空氣品質監測，同時回傳到地方的環保局，還有我們中央其實都可以看得到，所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少，我們都很清楚，基本上任何燒東西其實都有一個污染控制系統，所以這次例如說中部，你可以看得出來，中部的火力電廠因為前幾天增加了一點點，但是你看市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化，這可以看得出來其實不是大家想得那麼直接，燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少。"],["陳委員瑩：因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員瑩：在能源產生過程是不是如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫，可以便於你們事先掌握跟評估？我待會下面會講一些例子，你就會了解我為什麼很關心主動跟被動因應污染排放的問題，我們與其這樣，不如從源頭去處理。","我分享一個實例，鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的污染排放，後來我們辦公室跟中油公司有反映了這個問題，中油公司他們也被動的馬上處理這件事情，改進了脫硫技術，也提升了油品的販售品質，後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的排放標準也符合規定，讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商可以不用大費周章更改設備，就可以符合法令的規定。所以，我希望未來在火力發電的部分，環境部也可以跟台電、中油還有經濟部能有更好、更多的合作，主動去協助改善燃燒效率，我不曉得部長，這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個就是我們訂的，我們針對任何的鍋爐都有固定污染源明確的排放標準，因為要訂的時候，我們都要辦公聽會與業者協商，這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：希望大家可以多主動。最後想要請教台灣綠色成長基金，我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主，可是二氧化碳為什麼不是空氣污染的指標，但是它卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為二氧化碳主要是一個溫室氣體。"],["陳委員瑩：對，因為今年7月你們要把它正名嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是如果空氣品質的……你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳，我們怎麼去看減碳的績效？因為室內看這樣知道，空氣品質指標就沒有。"],["彭部長啓明：因為室內的空品，例如說現在看可以到七百多，像剛剛就到一千多，其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響，但是戶外其實二氧化碳是屬於一個比較穩定的均值，緩慢地在上升，或是它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化，跟室內直接對人體的影響比較不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：對，但是因為你未來要減碳。"],["彭部長啓明：未來要減碳，我們因為……"],["陳委員瑩：你怎麼去看績效？這裡沒有對跟不對的問題，因為你把它改名了、把它正名了，或者你要用其他的方式去看未來減碳的績效。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站，因為二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大，所以以臺灣來說的話，我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站去量，現在大概到420ppm了，所以那個就是代表一個環境的變化，它對於溫室氣體來說倒不是直接，我們一般來說，因為燃燒就會排碳，這個燃燒量的碳多少，我們有一定的計算方式，所以跟濃度不大有關係。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，這個後續我們再研究。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["主席：你不是後續再研究？"],["陳委員瑩：後續研究，當然也要把話講完，所以未來碳捕捉的技術，是不是只是以捕捉二氧化碳為主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：如果也能夠有效抑制其他污染物的話，這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資？"],["彭部長啓明：理論上因為只要排碳，其他污染物也都混在一起，所以只要減碳有效益，我們是以減碳有效益為最主要的目標。"],["陳委員瑩：我們希望未來碳捕捉應該不是僅限於煙囪排出去嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不限。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我們要評估廠內作業的勞工也有污染暴露的問題，這個部分希望你們好好了解，必要的時候要做工程改善，而不是一刀切說那個就是勞動部要負責，他們只會開單而已，他們不知道怎麼去改善這些問題，所以請你們也能夠好好協助這個部分。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長，請回，謝謝。因為剛剛有宣告，12點10分要處理解凍案，抱歉！","請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}}