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126.349, \"end\": 126.509, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 126.509, \"end\": 126.649, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 126.649, \"end\": 127.31, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 127.31, \"end\": 127.51, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 127.51, \"end\": 127.53, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}]}, {\"start\": 129.091, \"end\": 156.137, \"text\": \"所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 129.091, \"end\": 129.211, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 129.211, \"end\": 129.351, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 129.351, \"end\": 129.771, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 129.771, \"end\": 129.891, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 153.076, \"end\": 153.216, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 153.216, \"end\": 153.396, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 153.396, \"end\": 153.596, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 153.596, \"end\": 153.996, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 153.996, \"end\": 154.617, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 154.617, \"end\": 154.737, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 154.737, \"end\": 154.837, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 154.837, \"end\": 154.957, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 154.957, \"end\": 155.077, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 155.077, \"end\": 155.097, \"score\": 0.008}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 155.097, \"end\": 155.197, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 155.197, \"end\": 155.337, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 155.337, \"end\": 155.477, 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00:01:21,466\n我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右\n\n5\n00:01:21,986 --> 00:01:37,716\n8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方\n\n6\n00:01:39,037 --> 00:01:52,494\n的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差\n\n7\n00:01:53,260 --> 00:02:07,530\n所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8\n\n8\n00:02:09,091 --> 00:02:36,137\n所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義\n\n9\n00:02:37,137 --> 00:02:51,692\n我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠\n\n10\n00:02:53,257 --> 00:03:19,623\n大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言\n\n11\n00:03:20,303 --> 00:03:48,878\n否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說\n\n12\n00:03:49,418 --> 00:04:08,609\n還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加\n\n13\n00:04:09,329 --> 00:04:31,931\n那飛河之後如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式\n\n14\n00:04:33,132 --> 00:04:58,362\n本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好\n\n15\n00:04:59,402 --> 00:05:19,906\n我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有\n\n16\n00:05:26,447 --> 00:05:46,517\n也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好\n\n17\n00:05:47,117 --> 00:06:14,757\n希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAXNAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加\n\n18\n00:06:15,177 --> 00:06:20,742\n如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4703\t6674\t主席好 麻煩請找環境部長來 請部長\n11863\t34715\t業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師\n35856\t56594\t好 那這個第一個 就是部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛比很多國際 在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說 委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡啦但是新加坡因為它在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣我沒有把它算進去部長你這個比較基礎是什麼\n58275\t81466\t我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右\n81986\t97716\t8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方\n99037\t112494\t的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差\n113260\t127530\t所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8\n129091\t156137\t所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義\n157137\t171692\t我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠\n173257\t199623\t大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言\n200303\t228878\t否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說\n229418\t248609\t還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加\n249329\t271931\t那飛河之後 如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話 氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式\n273132\t298362\t本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好\n299402\t319906\t我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有\n326447\t346517\t也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好\n347117\t374757\t希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加\n375177\t380742\t如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝\n","txt":"主席好 麻煩請找環境部長來 請部長\n業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師\n好 那這個第一個 就是部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛比很多國際 在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說 委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡啦但是新加坡因為它在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣我沒有把它算進去部長你這個比較基礎是什麼\n我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右\n8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方\n的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差\n所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8\n所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義\n我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠\n大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言\n否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說\n還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加\n那飛河之後 如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話 氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式\n本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好\n我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有\n也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好\n希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加\n如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.703 --> 00:06.674\n主席好麻煩請找環境部長來請部長\n\n00:11.863 --> 00:34.715\n業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師\n\n00:35.856 --> 00:56.594\n好那這個第一個就是部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛比很多國際在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡啦但是新加坡因為它在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣我沒有把它算進去部長你這個比較基礎是什麼\n\n00:58.275 --> 01:21.466\n我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右\n\n01:21.986 --> 01:37.716\n8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方\n\n01:39.037 --> 01:52.494\n的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差\n\n01:53.260 --> 02:07.530\n所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8\n\n02:09.091 --> 02:36.137\n所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義\n\n02:37.137 --> 02:51.692\n我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠\n\n02:53.257 --> 03:19.623\n大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言\n\n03:20.303 --> 03:48.878\n否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說\n\n03:49.418 --> 04:08.609\n還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加\n\n04:09.329 --> 04:31.931\n那飛河之後如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式\n\n04:33.132 --> 04:58.362\n本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好\n\n04:59.402 --> 05:19.906\n我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有\n\n05:26.447 --> 05:46.517\n也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好\n\n05:47.117 --> 06:14.757\n希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAXNAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加\n\n06:15.177 --> 06:20.742\n如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.703,"end":6.674,"text":"主席好 麻煩請找環境部長來 請部長"},{"start":11.863,"end":34.715,"text":"業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師"},{"start":35.856,"end":56.594,"text":"好 那這個第一個 就是部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛比很多國際 在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說 委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡啦但是新加坡因為它在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣我沒有把它算進去部長你這個比較基礎是什麼"},{"start":58.275,"end":81.466,"text":"我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右"},{"start":81.986,"end":97.716,"text":"8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方"},{"start":99.037,"end":112.494,"text":"的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差"},{"start":113.26,"end":127.53,"text":"所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8"},{"start":129.091,"end":156.137,"text":"所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義"},{"start":157.137,"end":171.692,"text":"我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠"},{"start":173.257,"end":199.623,"text":"大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言"},{"start":200.303,"end":228.878,"text":"否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說"},{"start":229.418,"end":248.609,"text":"還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加"},{"start":249.329,"end":271.931,"text":"那飛河之後 如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話 氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式"},{"start":273.132,"end":298.362,"text":"本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好"},{"start":299.402,"end":319.906,"text":"我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有"},{"start":326.447,"end":346.517,"text":"也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好"},{"start":347.117,"end":374.757,"text":"希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加"},{"start":375.177,"end":380.742,"text":"如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時8分）主席，麻煩請環境部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。現在大家都很關心能源的問題，因為非核之後，到底空污會不會變比較嚴重，大家都很關心，我其實是蠻期許環境部是站在市民的角度、民眾的角度，真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估，然後跟外界做解釋，儘量不要去做台電的化妝師。","第一個，部長，你好像是上個禮拜有提到現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：比很多國際……在亞洲是僅次於日本。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須說其實還有一個國家──新加坡，但是新加坡因為它在熱帶，每天下雨，跟日、韓或是東亞的國情比較不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係。"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有把它算進去。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這個比較基礎是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站，那個符合國際的標準。"],["葉委員元之：其他國家的數值是怎麼取得的？"],["彭部長啓明：也是一樣……"],["葉委員元之：在哪裡取得的？"],["彭部長啓明：例如說日本官方網站的報告、韓國……"],["葉委員元之：日本官方網站去年平均一整年是低於12.8微克，其他國家是高於12.8微克，你是這樣算出來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：日本整個國家平均大概是8左右。"],["葉委員元之：你是從他們的官方網站，一個一個國家去抓的是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一個一個國家去看。"],["葉委員元之：好。第一個，我必須要講，你用一整年平均12.8微克來做比較，其實沒有什麼意義啦，為什麼？因為全臺灣各個地方的PM2.5數值不一樣，有的高、有的低，你看這是我們今天早上抓的，有的是綠色良好，有的是黃色普通，但像金門那邊就比較差。所以一個平均值對於在臺灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊，我舉一個比較嚴重的，例如像仁武區，你看仁武區的PM2.5就是21.9，就大於你所公布的平均12.8，所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個就像是，例如說委員的平均是多少，這有一個數值，當然有人高有人低嘛，我們平均是可以來做比較的。"],["葉委員元之：臺灣現在因為非核家園火力全開，對於火力全開周邊環境的PM2.5上升一定是有影響的，所以拿一個平均值，你拿花蓮、臺東好山好水去跟會有污染源的地方做平均，沒有意義。我是覺得如果環境部要公布類似報告的話，應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公布，我覺得比較有意義啦，這是第一個建議。","第二個就是有關於硫氧化物，火力發電廠大概是40%排放，這是你們自己的數據，我是依據環境部空氣污染物排放量清冊，你可以看到電力業對於硫氧化物就是貢獻了40.4%，所以並不是空氣污染好像都是什麼其他移動污染源導致，不是，火力發電還是有影響。所以希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言，否則台電會覺得火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊，現在就是這樣啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須澄清說明一下，這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做代表，PM2.5除了直接排放之外，還有衍生性的，例如你說的硫氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢、慢慢地，就是這種懸浮微粒都會造成PM2.5的增加，它都算成是PM2.5，所以我們談空污對人體的影響，就是以PM2.5作為主軸，並不是說還要再去做分類。"],["葉委員元之：但光是PM2.5，我覺得也是要仔細去評估啦，不是說用一個平均數。而且還有一個重點，就是我們之後的用電量會越來越多，不管是AI的發展，或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠，或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車，用電量一定會增加，而非核政策之後，如果新的綠電沒辦法補的話，就我的了解，像光電的發展現在就停滯了，地熱現在還要探鑽，不見得能夠探鑽到大量，氫能的話，其實它只是能夠取代碳排。所以如果在用電量大增的情況之下，沒有新的發電方式，本來應該要退役的燃煤機組不退役，停機，停機之後又復機，未來就真的會火力全開啊，未來火力全開，當然PM2.5就會上升，我不知道環境部有沒有針對這個部分給台電一些建議，跟它說站在環境的角度，它自己要去思考能源配比，而不是好像順著它的話去講火力全開沒關係，反正我們現在看平均PM2.5的數值好像也還好，我覺得不能這樣耶！我覺得不能這樣子。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那天我的報告是說，我們臺灣整個空污狀況，的確從十幾年前的平均二、三十一直降到12.8，其實這個12.8是很努力，但是我們現在空氣裡面有很多的污染源，移動的、生活的等等……"],["葉委員元之：都要減少嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：都要減少，對……"],["葉委員元之：所以不能用這個東西來當作……"],["彭部長啓明：所以絕對不是只有受到燃煤發電的影響。"],["葉委員元之：是啦，因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊，你不能說因為別的地方也都有增加，所以不能只怪台電，不是，而是就發電的這一塊，我們怎麼儘量持續減少PM2.5，我覺得重點應該在這邊，所以環境部應該要去跟台電講，不要讓它覺得好像把一些停機的燃煤機組重新拿出來燃煤沒關係，反正有環境部護航，告訴大家……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有護航喔，沒有護航喔！"],["葉委員元之：沒有護航最好，希望環境部可以大聲把真正的數據公開透明地告訴社會大眾，我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力，跟它講發電方式有很多種，你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種，大家一起為環境而努力啦，希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊。"],["彭部長啓明：所以報告委員，你其實也可以看我們的app，上面可以看到過去這幾天PM2.5的數值是多少，或是可以看到SOx、NOx其實都沒有什麼太大的變化，所以除了那個之外，也要看實際上的……"],["葉委員元之：之後用電量增加，如果燃煤機組火力全開，那就不一定了，所以你要跟他們建議啦，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來請楊委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}}