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\"end\": 741.241, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 741.241, \"end\": 741.502, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 741.502, \"end\": 741.622, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 741.622, \"end\": 741.802, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 741.802, \"end\": 741.902, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 741.902, \"end\": 741.922, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 741.922, \"end\": 741.942, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 741.942, \"end\": 742.022, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 742.022, \"end\": 742.102, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 742.102, \"end\": 742.122, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 742.122, \"end\": 742.142, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 742.142, \"end\": 742.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 742.162, \"end\": 742.182, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 742.182, \"end\": 742.402, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 742.402, \"end\": 742.582, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 742.582, \"end\": 742.802, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 742.802, \"end\": 742.983, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 742.983, \"end\": 743.003, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,340 --> 00:00:02,861\n主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國\n\n2\n00:00:27,270 --> 00:00:37,699\n這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不斷是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億\n\n3\n00:00:42,322 --> 00:01:10,259\n然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個深植柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔\n\n4\n00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:19,666\n也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億啊佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰就他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億啊\n\n5\n00:01:41,904 --> 00:02:09,492\n這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛\n\n6\n00:02:10,694 --> 00:02:32,796\n我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政企局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的\n\n7\n00:02:34,758 --> 00:02:55,335\n有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且您去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動\n\n8\n00:02:56,656 --> 00:03:24,943\n相繼的辭職你給他給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛很異常你要去看喔他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來工程的這個洗錢的可能性\n\n9\n00:03:25,765 --> 00:03:37,687\n第二個呢按盤是一個分立的可能性第三私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊\n\n10\n00:03:39,575 --> 00:04:01,129\n當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這是已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢\n\n11\n00:04:02,324 --> 00:04:21,507\n整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是\n\n12\n00:04:23,009 --> 00:04:32,634\n因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:32,634 --> 00:04:36,617\n杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對\n\n14\n00:04:44,446 --> 00:05:04,594\n我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問\n\n15\n00:05:05,174 --> 00:05:27,690\n有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況\n\n16\n00:05:29,091 --> 00:05:53,945\n那另外一個部分呢主委我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下欸那個讀懂難道沒有看到這些問題嗎\n\n17\n00:05:55,356 --> 00:06:03,337\n也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把讀懂的責任跟角色了解清楚\n\n18\n00:06:05,113 --> 00:06:29,470\n剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明來委員報導我們的剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董當然也要問清楚啊四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不適任主委你請回到備詢台\n\n19\n00:06:30,851 --> 00:06:43,715\n如果不適應的話之前我就要求過讀懂的角色之所以這麼關鍵賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公私治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛是不是主委\n\n20\n00:06:47,739 --> 00:07:09,791\n那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理\n\n21\n00:07:10,971 --> 00:07:37,389\n督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下\n\n22\n00:07:38,610 --> 00:08:00,912\n你去年的時候就提過說去年的夏惠琦就是去年底的時候要拼夏惠琦修法嘛後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對因為這個齁確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過好很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會都在說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經\n\n23\n00:08:01,833 --> 00:08:17,220\n對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在就沒有所謂的公私治理的可能啦\n\n24\n00:08:18,106 --> 00:08:35,732\n如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公私治理不是嗎對是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個\n\n25\n00:08:37,152 --> 00:09:04,774\n這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拼行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍\n\n26\n00:09:06,416 --> 00:09:21,385\n其實應該傳聞不斷耶對其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰\n\n27\n00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:47,446\n那當然罰則是一定有的否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦好不好當然這是我們努力的方向好接下來問最後一個問題\n\n28\n00:09:49,031 --> 00:10:03,283\n最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長\n\n29\n00:10:04,403 --> 00:10:23,971\n但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升\n\n30\n00:10:25,552 --> 00:10:45,742\n李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是\n\n31\n00:10:46,662 --> 00:11:09,590\n銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個\n\n32\n00:11:13,531 --> 00:11:35,059\n那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做\n\n33\n00:11:37,000 --> 00:12:02,902\n這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的水準假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在\n\n34\n00:12:03,991 --> 00:12:23,003\n因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們今晚會來努力除了量之外不應該讓它負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題啦好麻煩主委費心謝謝好請宗嘉斌委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1340\t2861\t主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國\n27270\t37699\t這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不斷是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億\n42322\t70259\t然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個深植柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔\n72020\t79666\t也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億啊佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰就他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億啊\n101904\t129492\t這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛\n130694\t152796\t我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政企局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的\n154758\t175335\t有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且您去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動\n176656\t204943\t相繼的辭職你給他給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛很異常你要去看喔他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來工程的這個洗錢的可能性\n205765\t217687\t第二個呢 按盤是一個分立的可能性第三 私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊\n219575\t241129\t當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好 局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這是已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢\n242324\t261507\t整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是\n263009\t272634\t因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎?\n272634\t276617\t杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長 我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對\n284446\t304594\t我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問\n305174\t327690\t有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況\n329091\t353945\t那另外一個部分呢 主委 我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來 這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題 或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題 子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊 每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下 欸 那個讀懂難道沒有看到這些問題嗎\n355356\t363337\t也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把讀懂的責任跟角色了解清楚\n365113\t389470\t剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明來委員報導我們的剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董當然也要問清楚啊四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不適任主委你請回到備詢台\n390851\t403715\t如果不適應的話 之前我就要求過讀懂的角色之所以這麼關鍵 賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公私治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛 是不是 主委\n407739\t429791\t那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對 如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理\n430971\t457389\t督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下\n458610\t480912\t你去年的時候就提過說去年的夏惠琦就是去年底的時候要拼夏惠琦修法嘛後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對 因為這個齁 確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過好很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會都在說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經\n481833\t497220\t對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說 獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在就沒有所謂的公私治理的可能啦\n498106\t515732\t如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公私治理不是嗎對是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個\n517152\t544774\t這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拼行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對 是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍\n546416\t561385\t其實應該傳聞不斷耶對其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰\n572160\t587446\t那當然 罰則是一定有的 否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則 那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下 希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦 好不好當然 這是我們努力的方向好 接下來問最後一個問題\n589031\t603283\t最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長\n604403\t623971\t但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升\n625552\t645742\t李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是\n646662\t669590\t銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個\n673531\t695059\t那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做\n697000\t722902\t這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的水準假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在\n723991\t743003\t因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們今晚會來努力除了量之外不應該讓它負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題啦好 麻煩主委費心 謝謝好 請宗嘉斌委員質詢\n","txt":"主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國\n這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不斷是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億\n然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個深植柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔\n也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億啊佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰就他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億啊\n這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛\n我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政企局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的\n有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且您去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動\n相繼的辭職你給他給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛很異常你要去看喔他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來工程的這個洗錢的可能性\n第二個呢 按盤是一個分立的可能性第三 私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊\n當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好 局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這是已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢\n整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是\n因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎?\n杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長 我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對\n我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問\n有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況\n那另外一個部分呢 主委 我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來 這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題 或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題 子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊 每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下 欸 那個讀懂難道沒有看到這些問題嗎\n也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把讀懂的責任跟角色了解清楚\n剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明來委員報導我們的剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董當然也要問清楚啊四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不適任主委你請回到備詢台\n如果不適應的話 之前我就要求過讀懂的角色之所以這麼關鍵 賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公私治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛 是不是 主委\n那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對 如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理\n督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下\n你去年的時候就提過說去年的夏惠琦就是去年底的時候要拼夏惠琦修法嘛後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對 因為這個齁 確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過好很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會都在說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經\n對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說 獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在就沒有所謂的公私治理的可能啦\n如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公私治理不是嗎對是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個\n這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拼行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對 是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍\n其實應該傳聞不斷耶對其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰\n那當然 罰則是一定有的 否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則 那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下 希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦 好不好當然 這是我們努力的方向好 接下來問最後一個問題\n最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長\n但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升\n李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是\n銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個\n那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做\n這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的水準假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在\n因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們今晚會來努力除了量之外不應該讓它負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題啦好 麻煩主委費心 謝謝好 請宗嘉斌委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.340 --> 00:02.861\n主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國\n\n00:27.270 --> 00:37.699\n這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不斷是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億\n\n00:42.322 --> 01:10.259\n然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個深植柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔\n\n01:12.020 --> 01:19.666\n也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億啊佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰就他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億啊\n\n01:41.904 --> 02:09.492\n這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛\n\n02:10.694 --> 02:32.796\n我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政企局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的\n\n02:34.758 --> 02:55.335\n有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且您去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動\n\n02:56.656 --> 03:24.943\n相繼的辭職你給他給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛很異常你要去看喔他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來工程的這個洗錢的可能性\n\n03:25.765 --> 03:37.687\n第二個呢按盤是一個分立的可能性第三私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊\n\n03:39.575 --> 04:01.129\n當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這是已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢\n\n04:02.324 --> 04:21.507\n整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是\n\n04:23.009 --> 04:32.634\n因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎?\n\n04:32.634 --> 04:36.617\n杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對\n\n04:44.446 --> 05:04.594\n我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問\n\n05:05.174 --> 05:27.690\n有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況\n\n05:29.091 --> 05:53.945\n那另外一個部分呢主委我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下欸那個讀懂難道沒有看到這些問題嗎\n\n05:55.356 --> 06:03.337\n也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把讀懂的責任跟角色了解清楚\n\n06:05.113 --> 06:29.470\n剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明來委員報導我們的剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董當然也要問清楚啊四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不適任主委你請回到備詢台\n\n06:30.851 --> 06:43.715\n如果不適應的話之前我就要求過讀懂的角色之所以這麼關鍵賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公私治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛是不是主委\n\n06:47.739 --> 07:09.791\n那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理\n\n07:10.971 --> 07:37.389\n督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下\n\n07:38.610 --> 08:00.912\n你去年的時候就提過說去年的夏惠琦就是去年底的時候要拼夏惠琦修法嘛後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對因為這個齁確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過好很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會都在說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經\n\n08:01.833 --> 08:17.220\n對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在就沒有所謂的公私治理的可能啦\n\n08:18.106 --> 08:35.732\n如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公私治理不是嗎對是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個\n\n08:37.152 --> 09:04.774\n這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拼行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍\n\n09:06.416 --> 09:21.385\n其實應該傳聞不斷耶對其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰\n\n09:32.160 --> 09:47.446\n那當然罰則是一定有的否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦好不好當然這是我們努力的方向好接下來問最後一個問題\n\n09:49.031 --> 10:03.283\n最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長\n\n10:04.403 --> 10:23.971\n但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升\n\n10:25.552 --> 10:45.742\n李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是\n\n10:46.662 --> 11:09.590\n銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個\n\n11:13.531 --> 11:35.059\n那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做\n\n11:37.000 --> 12:02.902\n這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的水準假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在\n\n12:03.991 --> 12:23.003\n因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們今晚會來努力除了量之外不應該讓它負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題啦好麻煩主委費心謝謝好請宗嘉斌委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.34,"end":2.861,"text":"主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國"},{"start":27.27,"end":37.699,"text":"這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不斷是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億"},{"start":42.322,"end":70.259,"text":"然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個深植柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔"},{"start":72.02,"end":79.666,"text":"也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億啊佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰就他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億啊"},{"start":101.904,"end":129.492,"text":"這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛"},{"start":130.694,"end":152.796,"text":"我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政企局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的"},{"start":154.758,"end":175.335,"text":"有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且您去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動"},{"start":176.656,"end":204.943,"text":"相繼的辭職你給他給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛很異常你要去看喔他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來工程的這個洗錢的可能性"},{"start":205.765,"end":217.687,"text":"第二個呢 按盤是一個分立的可能性第三 私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊"},{"start":219.575,"end":241.129,"text":"當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好 局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這是已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢"},{"start":242.324,"end":261.507,"text":"整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是"},{"start":263.009,"end":272.634,"text":"因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎?"},{"start":272.634,"end":276.617,"text":"杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長 我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對"},{"start":284.446,"end":304.594,"text":"我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問"},{"start":305.174,"end":327.69,"text":"有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況"},{"start":329.091,"end":353.945,"text":"那另外一個部分呢 主委 我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來 這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題 或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題 子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊 每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下 欸 那個讀懂難道沒有看到這些問題嗎"},{"start":355.356,"end":363.337,"text":"也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把讀懂的責任跟角色了解清楚"},{"start":365.113,"end":389.47,"text":"剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明來委員報導我們的剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董當然也要問清楚啊四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不適任主委你請回到備詢台"},{"start":390.851,"end":403.715,"text":"如果不適應的話 之前我就要求過讀懂的角色之所以這麼關鍵 賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公私治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛 是不是 主委"},{"start":407.739,"end":429.791,"text":"那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對 如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理"},{"start":430.971,"end":457.389,"text":"督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下"},{"start":458.61,"end":480.912,"text":"你去年的時候就提過說去年的夏惠琦就是去年底的時候要拼夏惠琦修法嘛後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對 因為這個齁 確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過好很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會都在說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經"},{"start":481.833,"end":497.22,"text":"對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說 獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在就沒有所謂的公私治理的可能啦"},{"start":498.106,"end":515.732,"text":"如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公私治理不是嗎對是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個"},{"start":517.152,"end":544.774,"text":"這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拼行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對 是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍"},{"start":546.416,"end":561.385,"text":"其實應該傳聞不斷耶對其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰"},{"start":572.16,"end":587.446,"text":"那當然 罰則是一定有的 否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則 那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下 希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦 好不好當然 這是我們努力的方向好 接下來問最後一個問題"},{"start":589.031,"end":603.283,"text":"最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長"},{"start":604.403,"end":623.971,"text":"但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升"},{"start":625.552,"end":645.742,"text":"李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是"},{"start":646.662,"end":669.59,"text":"銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個"},{"start":673.531,"end":695.059,"text":"那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做"},{"start":697,"end":722.902,"text":"這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的水準假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在"},{"start":723.991,"end":743.003,"text":"因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們今晚會來努力除了量之外不應該讓它負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題啦好 麻煩主委費心 謝謝好 請宗嘉斌委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時8分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，今天還是就教你中鼎的問題，我的辦公室有特別針對中鼎的財報去瞭解，才發現中鼎孫公司的控股公司在投資中鼎美國，基本上這家公司對其孫公司的支援非常多，除了資金給與83億之外，去年還增資了31億，總體投資超過了56億，而且在去年認賠16億的情況底下，還繼續增資31億。甚至在今年第1季的財報當中還對客戶端違約的這家能源公司，也就是建造生質柴油廠的子公司，答應其要重整，重整協議中除了指派股東及特別條款之外，還提供22.5億，也就是說，它回收的不過是45億，卻還要先投資22.5億下去，總體來說，我們在上週提到這個問題，中鼎合併資產的總金額當中，196億占了15.7%，對財務有一定程度的挑戰。它回收才45億，又要投入22.5億，原來這個工程是228億，結果總共投資變250億，這好像看起來是無底洞，所以財報當中有很多誇張的地方，我跟您說明一下。財報當中寫到，工程採完工百分比進行認列收入，也就是所謂的里程碑付款方式，做到多少拿多少，但事實上它完工100%，卻只拿到20%，付款條件很清楚不合理。所以這個公司治理很顯然出問題嘛！我講到這邊，主委有沒有這樣的感覺？"],["彭主任委員金隆：上週委員就關心這個議題，我也承諾要請交易所和證期局仔細去瞭解，這裡面有兩個層面，一個是公司經營的層面，雖然我們是上市（櫃）公司的主管機關，但我們對它不像對金融機構一樣有這麼多的監理……"],["郭委員國文：是，我理解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們主要是針對比如說證交法第三十六條第三項，有沒有如實針對剛剛講的、委員提到的重大訊息，還有它的合理性……"],["郭委員國文：它很顯然已經違反公司治理的原則了嘛！而且你看喔，它整個子公司的總經理、高層一直在變動，相繼辭職，獨厚BKRF這個生質燃油廠的公司之後，總經理就辭職了，後來找一個又辭職，所以很清楚、很異常嘛！你要去看喔，它投資下去的22.5億當中有追加投資異常的現象，追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果？一來是工程洗錢的可能性，第二個是暗盤紛立的可能性，第三是私下酬庸的可能性，這都有啊，你不要等到事情發生了，才造成投資人的損失。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，剛剛講說我們對資本市場的管理有一定的強度範圍，這點有跟委員報告過。細節的部分，我可以請張局長跟委員說明交易所調查的結果。"],["郭委員國文：好，請局長講一下。這件事情已經積欠上百億了喔！中鼎過去都沒有寫未逾期，而且違反百分之百認列的模式，在財報上也都沒有披露，這有沒有涉及財報不實？"],["張局長振山：跟委員報告，財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核它的狀況，目前……"],["郭委員國文：還在查？"],["張局長振山：對。大概再一個禮拜就會有初步的看法。"],["郭委員國文：再一個禮拜就會有結果是不是？"],["張局長振山：會有初步的看法。"],["郭委員國文：好，因為股票連跌4次，引起投資人的恐慌，今天投保中心董事長也有列席，本席要請教你一下。"],["主席：董事長。"],["張董事長心悌：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：董事長，我就教於您，中鼎我們都有持股，對不對？"],["張董事長心悌：我沒有。"],["郭委員國文：不是你啦！"],["張董事長心悌：是。"],["郭委員國文：你們投保中心有沒有派人去？"],["張董事長心悌：投保有。"],["郭委員國文：今天有沒有派人去？"],["張董事長心悌：有，今天有派4位同仁去。"],["郭委員國文：他們有沒有發問？"],["張董事長心悌：有，我們已經準備一個清單。"],["郭委員國文：什麼清單？"],["張董事長心悌：問題的清單。"],["郭委員國文：站在投資人保護的立場，今天早上9點的股東大會，你們有沒有上場去問？"],["張董事長心悌：有，我們上禮拜五就發函給中鼎，中鼎昨天就已經回函說明一些問題，我們根據它的回函，今天又再追加了一些問題，請它在股東會上向股東說明。"],["郭委員國文：請就你們所問到的內容，跟證交所和證期局彙整一下，以昭公信。"],["張董事長心悌：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，你請回，你有進入狀況啦！","另外請問主委，其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查，種種跡象顯示，它在治理上出了很多問題，不論是內控的審計制度問題、企業風險的問題、合約履約管理的問題、子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題，每一個面向都有問題啊！在問題這麼多的情況底下，獨董難道都沒有看到嗎？也就是說，證期局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候，也應該把獨董的責任和角色瞭解清楚。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛也有委員提到投保中心應對獨董的角色及責任予以釐清，要不要再請張董事長說明一下？"],["郭委員國文：好，請說明。"],["張董事長心悌：報告委員，我們禮拜五發函也有給獨董，所以今天在股東會上，如果有必要，我們會詢問獨董的意見。"],["郭委員國文：當然也要問清楚啊！4個獨董都非常大咖耶！如果獨董不適任，主委，之前我就要求過，獨董的角色之所以這麼關鍵、被賦予這麼重要的角色和任務，就是要讓公司治理得以落實嘛！如果他們沒有辦法扮演這種角色，就應該列入黑名單嘛！是不是這樣？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個事實還在釐清當中，而且我們也不適合公開說要對誰究責，但是制度在那邊，我們就會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：我就針對制度而已嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對。"],["郭委員國文：如果查有類似情事產生，那就應該考量列入黑名單嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果我們現在對獨立董事有這樣的資格要求，我們就會按照這樣來處理。"],["郭委員國文：對！獨董是內部監督很重要的關鍵，但是有一個你還沒有執行的就是影子董事，這是更大的麻煩。","今天就跟你談公司治理，主委去年7月22日接受訪問時，表示會提出有關杜絕大股東職權不符亂象的修法，所謂大股東就是影子董事，還說要力拼下個會期修法，現在已經一年了耶！主委，我要提醒你一下，你去年7月就說要拼「下個會期」修法，也就是去年底嘛！可是後來我看你們的法案也沒有送出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：相關條文我們內部確實擬過很多版本，但是覺得這裡面還要更周延，我們昨天在記者會中有對外說明，包括幾個重點，未來會朝什麼方向來擬。我們會儘快提出草案送行政院。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你要快一點！有影子董事的產生和存在，就沒有公司治理的可能啦！如果影子董事都可以存在、在外面指揮、有權無責的話，何來公司治理？不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒錯。所以我也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則，第一個就是要權責相符，不能有權的人無責，有責的人卻要承擔這個……"],["郭委員國文：是啊！承擔法律風險啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是一個很簡單的公司治理原則。第二個就是，所有的決策都是透明的，透明當然不是都公開，而是都有跡可循。"],["郭委員國文：你要送行政院之前，接下來就6月了嘛！你應該再拼個下會期修法或這會期要送進來、下會期修法，至少有個工作目標嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這本來就是我們預計的時程。"],["郭委員國文：以我個人的理解，影子董事的存在還算普遍耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實應該……"],["郭委員國文：傳聞不斷耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經朝這個方向在努力，其實不只這個，還有其他的部分……"],["郭委員國文：可是你們修法的方向是和之前黃前主委一樣，停留在只有罰款的部分嗎？因為他之前是要限權。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是、不是，我們會更從整個制度面來看。"],["郭委員國文：增責？一種是限權，一種是增責。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所謂權責相符就是……"],["郭委員國文：增責就包括處罰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，罰責是一定有的，如果訂了一個規定卻沒有明確的罰責，那個規定就沒有用。"],["郭委員國文：對！麻煩一下啦！希望透過你在法制面的努力，能夠把影子董事杜絕。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是我們努力的方向。"],["郭委員國文：接下來是最後一個問題，央行升息的時候會帶動貸款方的利息成本，但是在第7波信用管制之前，五大銀行新承做購屋貸款利率和央行重貼現率都是同比例成長，但是在那之後，五大銀行新承做的購屋貸款利率卻異常偏高，偏高的方向已經開始增加，去年9月開始，央行明明沒有升息，但是貸款利率卻不斷攀升，已經接近0.1%。銀行的資金成本一樣，購屋貸款利率卻不斷提升，我認為接下來對購屋族會是一種額外的負擔，甚至會造成斷頭。看起來好像是要以量制價，但卻是銀行自行圖利，造成一些市場亂象。主委對此要不要注意一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們對房貸從去年開始信用管制以後，幾乎每週都在控管相關的內容。當然，我們也看到現在房貸的逾放比是0.08%……"],["郭委員國文：連九升喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：九升是因為最近存款的成長沒那麼高，也就是因為分母的關係。零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性，我只是說，現在相對還很低，而且所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳，等於反算在20倍，其實銀行在做這件事情的時候都非常謹慎，這個部分是這樣，即使我們的建築融資，也只有0.16%，那實際上是一個非常、非常低的水準，假設以1.5%來算，差不多有10倍的安全啦！所以我只是說，這個我們都在嚴格地監控，利率誠如委員剛剛講的，最近真的有可能二字頭以下是看不到了，當然確實我們要確保幾件事情，因為信用管制不是我們的措施，但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要，這是我們金管會會來努力。"],["郭委員國文：除了量之外，不應該讓他負擔太大，不要用以價制量的這種概念來增加貸款戶的負擔，我主要是做這樣的提醒。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來關注這個議題。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩主委費心，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}}