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\"start\": 52.325, \"end\": 52.865, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 52.865, \"end\": 52.985, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 52.985, \"end\": 53.105, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 53.105, \"end\": 53.205, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 53.205, \"end\": 53.345, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 53.345, \"end\": 53.365, \"score\": 0.484}]}, {\"start\": 54.626, \"end\": 72.476, \"text\": \"那當時呢 我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候 我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 54.626, \"end\": 55.207, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 55.207, \"end\": 55.547, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 55.547, \"end\": 56.087, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, 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{\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 471.77, \"end\": 472.111, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"懸\"}, {\"word\": \"崖\", \"start\": 472.111, \"end\": 472.291, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"勒\", \"start\": 472.291, \"end\": 472.311, \"score\": 0.225}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,655 --> 00:00:06,537\n今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎\n\n2\n00:00:24,404 --> 00:00:53,365\n當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶喔在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了\n\n3\n00:00:54,626 --> 00:01:12,476\n那當時呢我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候我有提出來\n\n4\n00:01:20,273 --> 00:01:28,957\n許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有\n\n5\n00:01:48,482 --> 00:02:05,609\n然後另外喔因為我們就提出報告了有我上面的你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊上面有說而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔再請教您就是\n\n6\n00:02:08,035 --> 00:02:18,679\n我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%\n\n7\n00:02:29,202 --> 00:02:44,847\n那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法\n\n8\n00:02:56,630 --> 00:03:02,921\n而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答\n\n9\n00:03:10,558 --> 00:03:30,647\n在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助\n\n10\n00:03:31,667 --> 00:03:55,537\n就是自行調整好他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億\n\n11\n00:03:58,718 --> 00:04:22,804\n那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站\n\n12\n00:04:24,943 --> 00:04:52,666\n您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架\n\n13\n00:04:54,230 --> 00:05:18,968\n這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項\n\n14\n00:05:20,202 --> 00:05:36,481\n依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出\n\n15\n00:05:37,660 --> 00:05:55,056\n這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎\n\n16\n00:05:57,566 --> 00:06:24,505\n這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答\n\n17\n00:06:25,444 --> 00:06:37,899\n民主黨請問這份關係文書是假的嗎卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為因為要查證啊查證好那你要多久時間查證\n\n18\n00:06:39,993 --> 00:07:00,915\n難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請\n\n19\n00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:28,882\n秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來\n\n20\n00:07:29,642 --> 00:07:52,311\n那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2655\t6537\t今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎\n24404\t53365\t當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶喔在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了\n54626\t72476\t那當時呢 我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候 我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來\n80273\t88957\t許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有\n108482\t125609\t然後另外喔 因為我們就提出報告了有 我上面的 你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案 您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊 上面有說 而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔 再請教您就是\n128035\t138679\t我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%\n149202\t164847\t那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法\n176630\t182921\t而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答\n190558\t210647\t在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助\n211667\t235537\t就是自行調整好 他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好 我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億\n238718\t262804\t那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站\n264943\t292666\t您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架\n294230\t318968\t這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項\n320202\t336481\t依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出\n337660\t355056\t這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎\n357566\t384505\t這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答\n385444\t397899\t民主黨 請問這份關係文書是假的嗎 卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道 我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為 因為要查證啊查證 好 那你要多久時間查證\n399993\t420915\t難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請\n422076\t448882\t秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來\n449642\t472311\t那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝\n","txt":"今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎\n當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶喔在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了\n那當時呢 我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候 我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來\n許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有\n然後另外喔 因為我們就提出報告了有 我上面的 你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案 您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊 上面有說 而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔 再請教您就是\n我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%\n那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法\n而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答\n在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助\n就是自行調整好 他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好 我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億\n那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站\n您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架\n這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項\n依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出\n這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎\n這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答\n民主黨 請問這份關係文書是假的嗎 卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道 我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為 因為要查證啊查證 好 那你要多久時間查證\n難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請\n秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來\n那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.655 --> 00:06.537\n今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎\n\n00:24.404 --> 00:53.365\n當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶喔在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了\n\n00:54.626 --> 01:12.476\n那當時呢我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候我有提出來\n\n01:20.273 --> 01:28.957\n許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有\n\n01:48.482 --> 02:05.609\n然後另外喔因為我們就提出報告了有我上面的你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊上面有說而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔再請教您就是\n\n02:08.035 --> 02:18.679\n我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%\n\n02:29.202 --> 02:44.847\n那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法\n\n02:56.630 --> 03:02.921\n而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答\n\n03:10.558 --> 03:30.647\n在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助\n\n03:31.667 --> 03:55.537\n就是自行調整好他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億\n\n03:58.718 --> 04:22.804\n那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站\n\n04:24.943 --> 04:52.666\n您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架\n\n04:54.230 --> 05:18.968\n這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項\n\n05:20.202 --> 05:36.481\n依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出\n\n05:37.660 --> 05:55.056\n這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎\n\n05:57.566 --> 06:24.505\n這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答\n\n06:25.444 --> 06:37.899\n民主黨請問這份關係文書是假的嗎卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為因為要查證啊查證好那你要多久時間查證\n\n06:39.993 --> 07:00.915\n難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請\n\n07:02.076 --> 07:28.882\n秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來\n\n07:29.642 --> 07:52.311\n那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.655,"end":6.537,"text":"今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎"},{"start":24.404,"end":53.365,"text":"當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶喔在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了"},{"start":54.626,"end":72.476,"text":"那當時呢 我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候 我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來"},{"start":80.273,"end":88.957,"text":"許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有"},{"start":108.482,"end":125.609,"text":"然後另外喔 因為我們就提出報告了有 我上面的 你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案 您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊 上面有說 而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔 再請教您就是"},{"start":128.035,"end":138.679,"text":"我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%"},{"start":149.202,"end":164.847,"text":"那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法"},{"start":176.63,"end":182.921,"text":"而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答"},{"start":190.558,"end":210.647,"text":"在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助"},{"start":211.667,"end":235.537,"text":"就是自行調整好 他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好 我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億"},{"start":238.718,"end":262.804,"text":"那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站"},{"start":264.943,"end":292.666,"text":"您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架"},{"start":294.23,"end":318.968,"text":"這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項"},{"start":320.202,"end":336.481,"text":"依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出"},{"start":337.66,"end":355.056,"text":"這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎"},{"start":357.566,"end":384.505,"text":"這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答"},{"start":385.444,"end":397.899,"text":"民主黨 請問這份關係文書是假的嗎 卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道 我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為 因為要查證啊查證 好 那你要多久時間查證"},{"start":399.993,"end":420.915,"text":"難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請"},{"start":422.076,"end":448.882,"text":"秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來"},{"start":449.642,"end":472.311,"text":"那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長好。今天我聽到很多民進黨委員都在說藍白亂刪預算，這個就是一個謠言，可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎？剛剛秘書長還說表示贊同，我來幫你恢復一下記憶，在去年12月18日內政委員會要審查中央行政院的預算，當時是徐欣瑩委員擔任召委，當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事，導致委員會空轉一整天，大概到了下午4點議事才恢復正常，召委也宣布恢復開會，當時秘書長也還在我們委員會，可是不曉得為什麼你接了一通神秘電話之後，你就離開了，當時我們覺得你這樣的行為其實就是藐視國會、藐視我們委員會，所以也有要求你要道歉，而且也有請你提出一個報告，當時你也有承諾說要提出報告，不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告，請秘書長說明這個報告現在在哪裡？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是，我有提出來，在徐委員當召委的時候，我有提出來。"],["許委員宇甄：徐委員當召委的時候，你有提出來？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["許委員宇甄：你看一下我的凍結案你就可以知道，我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告，你有提出來嗎？從那個時候到現在，從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位，不要說你貴為秘書長，連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我，針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告，都沒有！然後另外……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為我們就提出報告。"],["許委員宇甄：有，你看一下我的解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告，所以你到現在還不曉得這個解凍案，你今天就要來解凍了，完全都沒有做準備啊！上面有說，而且你也承諾說要提出報告。","另外再請教你，我們在去年8月31日的時候通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9,248億的法定預算，比113年還增加730億，而行政院最近落實財政紀律，大砍地方性的補助27.3%，也引發各縣市強烈的反彈，有很多縣市可能也會提告。請問行政院對外宣稱這些一般性補助款屬於「得」補助的性質，並非強制性的支出，可是根據中華民國憲法第一百四十七條的規定，中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展，也就是說，行政院無故刪減地方補助，不僅違反法律，也是觸犯憲法。而我們看到立法院通過的統刪決議，請你看一下，裡面有一般性補助款嗎？有一般性補助款嗎？秘書長，請你回答。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：在螢幕上這邊嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：對，這個就是當時列出來希望你們刪減的比例跟項目，裡面有一般性補助款嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長，沒有！好不好？你應該來備詢之前，就要了解清楚了，結果你還要看半天才告訴我「沒有」。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：第13項說要另予補足，就是自行調整。"],["許委員宇甄：好，他說，如刪減數未達939億元，以這個比例是不是303億元，我們講的是總刪減數喔！以總刪減數來說，其實台電就有1,000億，加上台電的1,000億不就一千三百多億了嗎？其實就已經夠啦！所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼，然後非要把它弄到一般性補助款？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，是那個已經刪掉以後，還要叫我們刪額外補足636億，如果是你剛剛講的那樣，那就沒問題，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：636億如果有困難的話，你也可以追加預算，為什麼可以用一般性補助款來……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們第一時間就說窒礙難行，所以為什麼提出覆議……"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長，你看一下，你說這個一般性補助款具有裁量權，是「得」補助，不是「應」補助，對不對？你是這樣講嘛？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：地制法還有財政劃分法……"],["許委員宇甄：好，荒謬的來了，請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站，你看一下，114年度一般性補助款編列情形表，我給你看一下內容，這是主計總處所列出來的一般性補助編列情形，你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性補助款是2,501億元，都沒有下架，這是現在你們主計總處的網站喔！沒有下架，所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊！刪了還不敢更正下架，因為這是法律義務支出，所以如果你刪了就是違法。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：它不是法律義務支出。"],["許委員宇甄：這是法律義務支出。再給你看，是誰說這是法律義務支出的，你知道嗎？是你們卓榮泰院長，我們看一下立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議議案關係文書的第(五)項：「依貴院審查111年度中央政府總預算所作決議，另附具114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表壹份」，你可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出？這是卓榮泰院長所發的公文，難道這份公文是假的嗎？這在我們立法院的關係文書上面喔！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：關於一般性補助，中央政府一定會補助地方政府，但法律義務……"],["許委員宇甄：你就在說謊，這是不是法律義務支出？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：法律義務沒有說一定要補多少。"],["許委員宇甄：法律義務支出可以刪減嗎？這就是在公然說謊嘛！秘書長，我覺得知錯能改，我們一定會同意解凍，但是你在這邊一直硬拗的話，我覺得我沒有辦法接受，因為它明明就是法律義務支出，這也是你們卓榮泰院長發的立法院的關係文書，所以這份公文是假的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：你讓主計總處的官員說明一下，好不好？"],["許委員宇甄：我先問你，這份由卓榮泰院長發出的關係文書是假的嗎？我沒有叫你回答！秘書長，請問這份關係文書是假的嗎？卓榮泰院長發的這個公文是假的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我不知道，我要再check一下。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼你不知道？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為要查證啊！"],["許委員宇甄：好，那你要多久時間查證？難道我會拿一個假的文書來告訴你嗎？你還要查證，你藐視國會到這種地步，我覺得秘書長，你真的非常非常地失職！這當然是你們行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書，而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出，所以請秘書長不要再公然說謊了，因為其實我們地方上的政府真的很需要一般性的補助，他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福、教育類，甚至一些基礎建設，你現在無端地砍掉27.3%，有些不管是雲林或是一些比較窮的縣市，像苗栗，苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來；以雲林來說，砍掉27.3%後，它的社福、它的各項建設根本沒有辦法進行。你用這樣的方式統刪27.3%，讓地方成為政治的犧牲品，這樣子是非常非常……說實在，不僅違法，而且是不人道的方式。所以請秘書長要跟院長報告，三思而後行，趕快懸崖勒馬，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","翁曉玲","張啓楷","張雅琳","王鴻薇"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1145401_00003"}}}