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328.279, \"end\": 329.299, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 329.299, \"end\": 330.02, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 330.02, \"end\": 330.941, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 330.941, \"end\": 331.121, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 331.121, \"end\": 331.421, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 331.421, \"end\": 331.641, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 331.641, \"end\": 331.862, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 331.862, \"end\": 332.602, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 332.602, \"end\": 332.722, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 332.722, \"end\": 332.822, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"輸\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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373.551, \"end\": 373.571, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 373.571, \"end\": 373.591, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 373.591, \"end\": 373.651, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 373.651, \"end\": 373.671, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 373.671, \"end\": 373.691, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 373.691, \"end\": 373.711, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 373.711, \"end\": 373.731, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 373.731, \"end\": 373.751, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"畢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 373.751, \"end\": 373.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 373.771, \"end\": 373.791, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 373.791, \"end\": 373.811, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 373.811, \"end\": 373.831, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 373.831, \"end\": 373.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 373.851, \"end\": 373.871, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 373.871, \"end\": 373.891, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 373.891, \"end\": 373.912, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 373.912, \"end\": 373.932, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 399.127, \"end\": 417.453, \"text\": \"我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 399.127, \"end\": 399.207, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 399.207, \"end\": 399.267, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 399.267, \"end\": 399.307, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 399.307, \"end\": 399.627, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 399.627, \"end\": 399.847, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 399.847, \"end\": 400.007, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"院\", 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\"做\", \"start\": 410.431, \"end\": 410.631, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 410.631, \"end\": 410.731, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.731, \"end\": 411.051, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"裁\", \"start\": 411.051, \"end\": 411.591, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 411.591, \"end\": 412.251, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 412.251, \"end\": 412.531, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 412.531, \"end\": 412.691, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 412.691, \"end\": 412.811, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 412.811, \"end\": 412.951, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 412.951, \"end\": 413.231, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 413.231, \"end\": 413.351, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 413.351, \"end\": 413.632, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 495.188, \"end\": 495.489, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 495.489, \"end\": 495.509, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"們\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,726 --> 00:00:05,049\n有請秘書長好請秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:10,527 --> 00:00:40,059\n歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說\n\n3\n00:00:40,619 --> 00:01:04,454\n这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗\n\n4\n00:01:05,526 --> 00:01:32,257\n可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的\n\n5\n00:01:32,737 --> 00:01:56,836\n可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說\n\n6\n00:01:59,658 --> 00:02:28,199\n这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项\n\n7\n00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:52,457\n這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:57,083 --> 00:03:19,741\n因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律\n\n9\n00:03:20,902 --> 00:03:37,996\n竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费\n\n10\n00:03:39,677 --> 00:04:06,075\n今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出\n\n11\n00:04:09,038 --> 00:04:31,996\n中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎\n\n12\n00:04:36,344 --> 00:04:55,172\n據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢\n\n13\n00:04:56,789 --> 00:05:12,784\n沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說\n\n14\n00:05:19,751 --> 00:05:33,843\n因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設\n\n15\n00:05:41,643 --> 00:05:51,387\n這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦\n\n16\n00:06:10,609 --> 00:06:13,932\n我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回\n\n17\n00:06:39,127 --> 00:06:57,453\n我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的\n\n18\n00:06:58,473 --> 00:07:28,173\n到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法\n\n19\n00:07:29,353 --> 00:07:48,581\n還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的\n\n20\n00:07:51,792 --> 00:08:15,509\n你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4726\t5049\t有請秘書長好 請秘書長\n10527\t40059\t歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說\n40619\t64454\t这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗\n65526\t92257\t可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的\n92737\t116836\t可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說\n119658\t148199\t这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项\n149580\t172457\t這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼\n177083\t199741\t因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律\n200902\t217996\t竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费\n219677\t246075\t今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出\n249038\t271996\t中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎\n276344\t295172\t據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢\n296789\t312784\t沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說\n319751\t333843\t因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設\n341643\t351387\t這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦\n370609\t373932\t我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回\n399127\t417453\t我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的\n418473\t448173\t到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法\n449353\t468581\t還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的\n471792\t495509\t你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們\n","txt":"有請秘書長好 請秘書長\n歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說\n这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗\n可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的\n可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說\n这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项\n這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼\n因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律\n竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费\n今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出\n中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎\n據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢\n沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說\n因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設\n這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦\n我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回\n我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的\n到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法\n還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的\n你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.726 --> 00:05.049\n有請秘書長好請秘書長\n\n00:10.527 --> 00:40.059\n歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說\n\n00:40.619 --> 01:04.454\n这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗\n\n01:05.526 --> 01:32.257\n可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的\n\n01:32.737 --> 01:56.836\n可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說\n\n01:59.658 --> 02:28.199\n这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项\n\n02:29.580 --> 02:52.457\n這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼\n\n02:57.083 --> 03:19.741\n因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律\n\n03:20.902 --> 03:37.996\n竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费\n\n03:39.677 --> 04:06.075\n今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出\n\n04:09.038 --> 04:31.996\n中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎\n\n04:36.344 --> 04:55.172\n據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢\n\n04:56.789 --> 05:12.784\n沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說\n\n05:19.751 --> 05:33.843\n因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設\n\n05:41.643 --> 05:51.387\n這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦\n\n06:10.609 --> 06:13.932\n我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回\n\n06:39.127 --> 06:57.453\n我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的\n\n06:58.473 --> 07:28.173\n到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法\n\n07:29.353 --> 07:48.581\n還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的\n\n07:51.792 --> 08:15.509\n你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.726,"end":5.049,"text":"有請秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":10.527,"end":40.059,"text":"歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說"},{"start":40.619,"end":64.454,"text":"这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗"},{"start":65.526,"end":92.257,"text":"可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的"},{"start":92.737,"end":116.836,"text":"可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說"},{"start":119.658,"end":148.199,"text":"这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项"},{"start":149.58,"end":172.457,"text":"這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼"},{"start":177.083,"end":199.741,"text":"因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律"},{"start":200.902,"end":217.996,"text":"竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费"},{"start":219.677,"end":246.075,"text":"今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出"},{"start":249.038,"end":271.996,"text":"中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":276.344,"end":295.172,"text":"據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢"},{"start":296.789,"end":312.784,"text":"沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說"},{"start":319.751,"end":333.843,"text":"因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設"},{"start":341.643,"end":351.387,"text":"這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":370.609,"end":373.932,"text":"我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回"},{"start":399.127,"end":417.453,"text":"我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的"},{"start":418.473,"end":448.173,"text":"到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法"},{"start":449.353,"end":468.581,"text":"還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的"},{"start":471.792,"end":495.509,"text":"你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時33分）有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長好。剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於行政院去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候，那個時候有附帶一份「114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表」，也就是這一份，因為先前已經有些委員有問了，所以我只想要請教您，這一份明細表它的法律意義是什麼？依照這個明細表裡面所列的這些預算項目，它的意義是什麼？是可以任意刪減的嗎？可以任意不執行嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我是不是請主計總處的同仁說明一下？在編列的時候。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，可以，請。"],["吳專門委員銘修：委員，公文上面的「依法律義務支出」，其實是我們在審查預算過程當中的分類，為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是說，如果被歸為依法律義務支出的話，代表我們在審查預算的過程當中，必須要去注意這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["吳專門委員銘修：可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的標準和數額，以一般性補助款來講，在地制法跟財劃法只有規定中央要酌予補助，沒有規定數額是多少，所以預算裡面估計的數字是有彈性的空間。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝你。我想這個部分是你們自己列出來的，支出明細表裡面每一項都有……"],["吳專門委員銘修：可以再跟委員報告……"],["翁委員曉玲：你先聽我說。"],["吳專門委員銘修：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分你是每一項都有清楚地列出數額、數字，不僅僅是針對一般的補助款，甚至包含什麼增補基金、撥補基金，對於社會福利津貼補助等等，都在這份明細表裡面，那麼現在本席質疑的是，立法院三讀通過各項依照法律義務支出的經費，通過了這些經費，它的意義是什麼？經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算，它的意義是什麼？"],["吳專門委員銘修：報告委員，現在就是說自行刪減636億也是在這個法定預算之前的預算案審議的一環。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在問你，經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼？請問秘書長，意義是什麼？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，因為在三讀通過以後，要我們自行刪減636億，我們就是按照這個決議……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們一直都在鬼打牆，我現在的問題很清楚，經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算，我不是指那636億，所有法定預算的項目，在概念上、在法律的解釋上，它叫措施性法律，既然是措施性法律，通過它就具有什麼？具有法律的拘束力，它就必須要去執行，換句話說，行政院沒有權力不執行，也沒有權力不按照通過的預算表去核發這些經費。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：委員，如果按照這個邏輯，636億我們就沒有辦法刪。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天對於636億的解釋，我們剛剛已經講得很清楚，我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及它的所屬機關，不涵蓋到地方政府，剛剛黃國昌委員對這個部分已經講得很清楚了，我也不勞煩秘書長您再重複一次，因為你們的法律見解是錯誤的，我們刪的是中央政府的預算。好，接下來我想要請教……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：一般性補助也是中央預算。"],["吳專門委員銘修：委員，可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：中央政府及所屬機關。","好，我接下來要問的是另外一個問題，這一次行政院有針對中央政府總預算聲請釋憲，請問你們在聲請釋憲之前，有徵詢過司法院、考試院的意見嗎？他們有同意你們提出聲請釋憲嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：據我瞭解，應該是會有溝通啦！但是實際狀況不是我去溝通，我就沒有辦法瞭解是不是有這樣的情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我在這裡跟秘書長報告，我在禮拜一有質詢司法院，司法院王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢、沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢，所以我認為司法院和考試院可能也不見得有接受到行政院徵詢他們的意見，要不要針對他們的預算一起去聲請釋憲。","好，既然你們現在已經聲請釋憲了，我接下來想要問的問題是，因為柯建銘總召說，假設大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的，那麼總預算將按原編列使用，請問主計總處還有秘書長，是如柯總召這麼說嗎？假設這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部違憲，那接下來要怎麼樣處理？我們已經執行完畢的預算要怎麼處理？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們就要依照大法官的解釋來辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：所謂大法官的解釋，就是有可能退回重審啊！假設他退回給立法院重審，請問主計總處，我們這時候要怎麼辦？我們每一項預算都要重新審過，對不對？"],["吳專門委員銘修：這個還是要看大法官到時候決議的狀況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我要講的是你們必須要去講清楚，這個預算退回立法院重審，那代表我們有可能就現行的預算刪減得更多或是凍結得更多，你們現在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回？我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚後續的一些法律問題？還是法規會可以回答？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：大法官會作怎麼樣的裁處，我們也實在不知道，所以這些都是假設性的問題，我也沒有辦法在這裡答復。等到大法官有正確的釋憲出來之後，我們會向各位說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：依照現在大法官的作法，非常有可能……他就站在民進黨政府這一邊啊！過去從來沒有針對過總預算案來聲請釋憲，甚至我認為大法官都不應該受理總預算案的釋憲案，當然他們現在還沒有處理，可是我覺得這個問題很嚴重，主計總處甚至審計部都應該要先講清楚，如果這個預算退回立法院重審，我們要怎麼樣的審法？還有若退回立法院重審，我們一定會全部重新審，不會按照行政院的意，然後都不審或是按照全部行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目，然後就完全的放水同意，這是不可能的！中間如果有任何的預算經費有變化，行政院有想出來要怎麼解決嗎？主計總處還有審計部要怎麼解決？我希望秘書長可以給我一份報告，好嗎？你們既然提出了釋憲案，就應該要對後續可能會產生的問題有所因應、提出因應策略，可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告，好不好？下禮拜三之前？那就麻煩你們。"],["主席：好，請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","翁曉玲","張啓楷","張雅琳","王鴻薇"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1145401_00003"}}}