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12:11:58","影片長度":"00:19:25","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T11:52:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:11:58+08:00","duration":1165,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162031","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162031","tool":"pyannote","id":"162031-pyannote"},"job_id":"vKvfd5siYuPJZl0i","queued_at":"2025-05-28 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\"這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 474.82, \"end\": 474.92, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 474.92, \"end\": 475.181, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 475.181, \"end\": 475.341, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 475.341, \"end\": 475.921, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 475.921, \"end\": 476.001, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 476.001, \"end\": 476.181, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 476.181, \"end\": 476.341, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 476.341, \"end\": 476.501, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 476.501, \"end\": 476.782, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 476.782, \"end\": 476.942, \"score\": 1.0}, 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\"start\": 490.851, \"end\": 491.171, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 491.171, \"end\": 492.011, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 492.011, \"end\": 493.012, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 493.012, \"end\": 494.313, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 494.313, \"end\": 494.853, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 494.853, \"end\": 494.993, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 494.993, \"end\": 495.293, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 495.293, \"end\": 495.554, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 495.554, \"end\": 495.714, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 495.714, \"end\": 495.854, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 495.854, \"end\": 496.074, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 496.074, \"end\": 496.394, 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{\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1074.32, \"end\": 1074.34, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1074.34, \"end\": 1074.38, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1074.38, \"end\": 1074.5, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 1074.5, \"end\": 1074.58, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 1074.58, \"end\": 1075.3, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 1075.3, \"end\": 1075.44, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1075.44, \"end\": 1075.5, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1075.5, \"end\": 1075.52, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1075.52, \"end\": 1075.581, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1075.581, \"end\": 1075.661, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 1075.661, \"end\": 1075.701, \"score\": 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\"end\": 1107.176, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1107.176, \"end\": 1107.317, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 1107.317, \"end\": 1107.717, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1107.717, \"end\": 1108.117, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 1108.117, \"end\": 1108.317, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1108.317, \"end\": 1108.878, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"童\", \"start\": 1108.878, \"end\": 1109.518, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"婦\"}, {\"word\": \"女\", \"start\": 1109.518, \"end\": 1109.798, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 1109.798, \"end\": 1109.958, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 1109.958, \"end\": 1110.139, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 1110.139, \"end\": 1110.299, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"友\", 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1115.402, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 1115.402, \"end\": 1115.963, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1115.963, \"end\": 1116.123, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1116.123, \"end\": 1116.203, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 1116.203, \"end\": 1116.223, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1116.223, \"end\": 1116.243, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1116.243, \"end\": 1116.263, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1116.263, \"end\": 1116.283, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 1116.283, \"end\": 1116.303, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1116.303, \"end\": 1116.403, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1116.403, \"end\": 1116.503, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1116.503, \"end\": 1116.623, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1116.623, \"end\": 1116.703, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1116.703, \"end\": 1116.723, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1116.723, \"end\": 1116.743, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1116.743, \"end\": 1116.763, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1124.226, \"end\": 1137.954, \"text\": \"好不好 我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1124.226, \"end\": 1124.306, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1124.306, \"end\": 1124.326, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1124.326, \"end\": 1124.526, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1124.526, \"end\": 1124.886, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1124.886, \"end\": 1125.627, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1125.627, \"end\": 1125.767, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1125.767, \"end\": 1126.107, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1126.107, \"end\": 1126.187, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1126.187, \"end\": 1126.267, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1126.267, \"end\": 1126.627, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 1126.627, \"end\": 1126.807, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 1126.807, \"end\": 1127.688, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1127.688, \"end\": 1127.868, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1127.868, \"end\": 1128.148, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1128.148, \"end\": 1128.849, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1128.849, \"end\": 1128.949, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1128.949, \"end\": 1129.009, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1129.009, \"end\": 1129.109, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1129.109, \"end\": 1129.249, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1129.249, \"end\": 1129.969, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1129.969, \"end\": 1130.289, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 1130.289, \"end\": 1130.55, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1130.55, \"end\": 1130.81, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1130.81, \"end\": 1131.01, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1131.01, \"end\": 1131.27, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1131.27, \"end\": 1132.391, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1132.391, \"end\": 1132.731, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1132.731, \"end\": 1133.511, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1133.511, \"end\": 1133.771, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1133.771, \"end\": 1134.252, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 1134.252, \"end\": 1134.452, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1134.452, \"end\": 1134.592, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1134.592, \"end\": 1134.952, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1134.952, \"end\": 1136.553, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1136.553, \"end\": 1137.133, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 1137.133, \"end\": 1137.654, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1137.654, \"end\": 1137.814, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1137.814, \"end\": 1137.934, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 1137.934, \"end\": 1137.954, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 1138.615, \"end\": 1161.099, \"text\": \"哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 那一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝六位委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 1138.615, \"end\": 1138.755, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 1138.755, \"end\": 1138.915, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1138.915, \"end\": 1139.055, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1139.055, \"end\": 1139.135, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1139.135, \"end\": 1139.315, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 1139.315, \"end\": 1140.195, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 1140.195, \"end\": 1140.355, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 1140.355, \"end\": 1140.595, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1140.595, \"end\": 1140.735, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1140.735, \"end\": 1140.795, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1140.795, \"end\": 1140.975, 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00:00:27,495\n好謝謝主席先請CDC的署長請署長署長要因應這個疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少\n\n2\n00:00:28,735 --> 00:00:52,153\n你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少\n\n3\n00:00:55,436 --> 00:01:14,713\n你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說可能大概一抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診8月底是有估了大概171萬左右\n\n4\n00:01:16,514 --> 00:01:20,781\n到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診\n\n5\n00:01:28,402 --> 00:01:50,854\n是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初?那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是差不多是這樣喔?是是是\n\n6\n00:01:51,946 --> 00:02:15,142\n就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診\n\n7\n00:02:16,082 --> 00:02:38,813\n對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數\n\n8\n00:02:40,754 --> 00:03:04,605\n這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點\n\n9\n00:03:07,967 --> 00:03:28,620\n如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月\n\n10\n00:03:31,161 --> 00:03:32,722\n你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊\n\n11\n00:03:48,126 --> 00:03:59,871\n主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧\n\n12\n00:04:04,489 --> 00:04:31,822\n現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧\n\n13\n00:04:32,282 --> 00:05:00,680\n是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長\n\n14\n00:05:02,332 --> 00:05:23,480\n部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好謝謝\n\n15\n00:05:25,001 --> 00:05:43,736\n我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月\n\n16\n00:05:49,980 --> 00:06:12,345\n虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧\n\n17\n00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:35,309\n請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報\n\n18\n00:06:40,014 --> 00:07:03,151\n李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?\n\n19\n00:07:08,292 --> 00:07:27,938\n陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法\n\n20\n00:07:28,891 --> 00:07:52,103\n司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報明確表達好不好要不要通報\n\n21\n00:07:54,820 --> 00:08:17,014\n這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報\n\n22\n00:08:18,103 --> 00:08:32,632\n一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話\n\n23\n00:08:39,964 --> 00:08:54,111\n這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:56,469 --> 00:09:22,350\n要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙\n\n25\n00:09:25,029 --> 00:09:32,558\n警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去\n\n26\n00:09:40,117 --> 00:10:08,215\n做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後後續又查出他利用遠端連線駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧\n\n27\n00:10:11,104 --> 00:10:39,682\n府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管那就教育部請回抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限\n\n28\n00:10:40,727 --> 00:11:04,725\n部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方\n\n29\n00:11:06,857 --> 00:11:09,959\n我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩\n\n30\n00:11:38,129 --> 00:11:53,187\n這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?\n\n31\n00:11:59,654 --> 00:12:28,147\n我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態\n\n32\n00:12:29,648 --> 00:12:36,734\n事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導\n\n33\n00:12:38,223 --> 00:12:55,510\n因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好\n\n34\n00:13:01,601 --> 00:13:18,839\n部長我在這邊具體的建立好不好要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內一個小時以上\n\n35\n00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:36,295\n我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝\n\n36\n00:13:37,336 --> 00:14:04,670\n好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,\n\n37\n00:14:06,347 --> 00:14:12,368\n農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道\n\n38\n00:14:33,567 --> 00:14:55,331\n衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚\n\n39\n00:14:58,443 --> 00:15:05,511\n你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?\n\n40\n00:15:17,805 --> 00:15:22,749\n從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快\n\n41\n00:15:42,957 --> 00:16:10,685\n衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的\n\n42\n00:16:12,705 --> 00:16:34,716\n這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎\n\n43\n00:16:39,048 --> 00:16:46,294\n我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,\n\n44\n00:16:55,114 --> 00:17:18,408\n你看花幾個部會花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔對不起2023年他其實是他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳\n\n45\n00:17:20,730 --> 00:17:41,455\n他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧\n\n46\n00:17:44,178 --> 00:17:56,821\n有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人\n\n47\n00:18:12,906 --> 00:18:36,763\n一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦\n\n48\n00:18:44,226 --> 00:18:57,954\n好不好我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來\n\n49\n00:18:58,615 --> 00:19:21,099\n哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是可以吧可以我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好那一個月內喔嘿好這樣才代表積極嘛好不好好謝謝部長謝謝次長謝謝各位好謝謝六位委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3413\t27495\t好 謝謝主席 先請CDC的署長請署長署長要因應這個疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少\n28735\t52153\t你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少\n55436\t74713\t你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊 應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說可能大概一抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診8月底是有估了大概171萬左右\n76514\t80781\t到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診\n88402\t110854\t是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對 到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初?那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是 差不多是這樣喔?是是是\n111946\t135142\t就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診\n136082\t158813\t對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數\n160754\t184605\t這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點\n187967\t208620\t如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月\n211161\t212722\t你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊\n228126\t239871\t主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧\n244489\t271822\t現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧\n272282\t300680\t是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長\n302332\t323480\t部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好 謝謝\n325001\t343736\t我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月\n349980\t372345\t虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧\n379759\t395309\t請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁 他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報\n400014\t423151\t李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?\n428292\t447938\t陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法\n448891\t472103\t司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報 明確表達好不好 要不要通報\n474820\t497014\t這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報\n498103\t512632\t一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話\n519964\t534111\t這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?\n536469\t562350\t要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙\n565029\t572558\t警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去\n580117\t608215\t做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後 後續又查出他利用遠端連線 駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧\n609258\t610213\t呃\n611104\t639682\t府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管 那就教育部請回 抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限\n640727\t664725\t部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方\n666857\t669959\t我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩\n698129\t713187\t這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?\n719654\t748147\t我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態\n749648\t756734\t事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導\n758223\t775510\t因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好\n781601\t798839\t部長 我在這邊具體的建立好不好 要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模 只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內 一個小時以上\n799600\t816295\t我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝\n817336\t844670\t好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,\n846347\t852368\t農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道\n873567\t895331\t衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚\n898443\t905511\t你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?\n917805\t922749\t從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快\n942957\t970685\t衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的\n972705\t994716\t這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎\n999048\t1006294\t我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,\n1015114\t1038408\t你看 花幾個部會 花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛 也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔 對不起2023年他其實是 他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳\n1040730\t1061455\t他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧\n1064178\t1076821\t有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人\n1092906\t1116763\t一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦\n1124226\t1137954\t好不好 我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來\n1138615\t1161099\t哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 那一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝六位委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 先請CDC的署長請署長署長要因應這個疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少\n你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少\n你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊 應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說可能大概一抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診8月底是有估了大概171萬左右\n到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診\n是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對 到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初?那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是 差不多是這樣喔?是是是\n就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診\n對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數\n這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點\n如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月\n你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊\n主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧\n現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧\n是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長\n部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好 謝謝\n我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月\n虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧\n請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁 他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報\n李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?\n陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法\n司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報 明確表達好不好 要不要通報\n這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報\n一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話\n這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?\n要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙\n警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去\n做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後 後續又查出他利用遠端連線 駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧\n呃\n府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管 那就教育部請回 抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限\n部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方\n我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩\n這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?\n我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態\n事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導\n因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好\n部長 我在這邊具體的建立好不好 要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模 只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內 一個小時以上\n我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝\n好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,\n農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道\n衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚\n你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?\n從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快\n衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的\n這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎\n我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,\n你看 花幾個部會 花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛 也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔 對不起2023年他其實是 他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳\n他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧\n有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人\n一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦\n好不好 我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來\n哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 那一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝六位委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.413 --> 00:27.495\n好謝謝主席先請CDC的署長請署長署長要因應這個疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少\n\n00:28.735 --> 00:52.153\n你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少\n\n00:55.436 --> 01:14.713\n你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說可能大概一抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診8月底是有估了大概171萬左右\n\n01:16.514 --> 01:20.781\n到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診\n\n01:28.402 --> 01:50.854\n是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初?那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是差不多是這樣喔?是是是\n\n01:51.946 --> 02:15.142\n就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診\n\n02:16.082 --> 02:38.813\n對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數\n\n02:40.754 --> 03:04.605\n這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點\n\n03:07.967 --> 03:28.620\n如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月\n\n03:31.161 --> 03:32.722\n你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊\n\n03:48.126 --> 03:59.871\n主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧\n\n04:04.489 --> 04:31.822\n現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧\n\n04:32.282 --> 05:00.680\n是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長\n\n05:02.332 --> 05:23.480\n部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好謝謝\n\n05:25.001 --> 05:43.736\n我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月\n\n05:49.980 --> 06:12.345\n虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧\n\n06:19.759 --> 06:35.309\n請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報\n\n06:40.014 --> 07:03.151\n李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?\n\n07:08.292 --> 07:27.938\n陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法\n\n07:28.891 --> 07:52.103\n司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報明確表達好不好要不要通報\n\n07:54.820 --> 08:17.014\n這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報\n\n08:18.103 --> 08:32.632\n一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話\n\n08:39.964 --> 08:54.111\n這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?\n\n08:56.469 --> 09:22.350\n要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙\n\n09:25.029 --> 09:32.558\n警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去\n\n09:40.117 --> 10:08.215\n做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後後續又查出他利用遠端連線駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧\n\n10:11.104 --> 10:39.682\n府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管那就教育部請回抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限\n\n10:40.727 --> 11:04.725\n部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方\n\n11:06.857 --> 11:09.959\n我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩\n\n11:38.129 --> 11:53.187\n這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?\n\n11:59.654 --> 12:28.147\n我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態\n\n12:29.648 --> 12:36.734\n事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導\n\n12:38.223 --> 12:55.510\n因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好\n\n13:01.601 --> 13:18.839\n部長我在這邊具體的建立好不好要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內一個小時以上\n\n13:19.600 --> 13:36.295\n我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝\n\n13:37.336 --> 14:04.670\n好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,\n\n14:06.347 --> 14:12.368\n農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道\n\n14:33.567 --> 14:55.331\n衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚\n\n14:58.443 --> 15:05.511\n你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?\n\n15:17.805 --> 15:22.749\n從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快\n\n15:42.957 --> 16:10.685\n衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的\n\n16:12.705 --> 16:34.716\n這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎\n\n16:39.048 --> 16:46.294\n我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,\n\n16:55.114 --> 17:18.408\n你看花幾個部會花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔對不起2023年他其實是他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳\n\n17:20.730 --> 17:41.455\n他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧\n\n17:44.178 --> 17:56.821\n有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人\n\n18:12.906 --> 18:36.763\n一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦\n\n18:44.226 --> 18:57.954\n好不好我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來\n\n18:58.615 --> 19:21.099\n哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是可以吧可以我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好那一個月內喔嘿好這樣才代表積極嘛好不好好謝謝部長謝謝次長謝謝各位好謝謝六位委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.413,"end":27.495,"text":"好 謝謝主席 先請CDC的署長請署長署長要因應這個疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少"},{"start":28.735,"end":52.153,"text":"你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少"},{"start":55.436,"end":74.713,"text":"你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊 應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說可能大概一抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診8月底是有估了大概171萬左右"},{"start":76.514,"end":80.781,"text":"到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診"},{"start":88.402,"end":110.854,"text":"是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對 到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初?那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是 差不多是這樣喔?是是是"},{"start":111.946,"end":135.142,"text":"就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診"},{"start":136.082,"end":158.813,"text":"對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數"},{"start":160.754,"end":184.605,"text":"這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點"},{"start":187.967,"end":208.62,"text":"如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月"},{"start":211.161,"end":212.722,"text":"你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊"},{"start":228.126,"end":239.871,"text":"主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧"},{"start":244.489,"end":271.822,"text":"現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧"},{"start":272.282,"end":300.68,"text":"是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長"},{"start":302.332,"end":323.48,"text":"部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好 謝謝"},{"start":325.001,"end":343.736,"text":"我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月"},{"start":349.98,"end":372.345,"text":"虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧"},{"start":379.759,"end":395.309,"text":"請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁 他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報"},{"start":400.014,"end":423.151,"text":"李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?"},{"start":428.292,"end":447.938,"text":"陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法"},{"start":448.891,"end":472.103,"text":"司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報 明確表達好不好 要不要通報"},{"start":474.82,"end":497.014,"text":"這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報"},{"start":498.103,"end":512.632,"text":"一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話"},{"start":519.964,"end":534.111,"text":"這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?"},{"start":536.469,"end":562.35,"text":"要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙"},{"start":565.029,"end":572.558,"text":"警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去"},{"start":580.117,"end":608.215,"text":"做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後 後續又查出他利用遠端連線 駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧"},{"start":609.258,"end":610.213,"text":"呃"},{"start":611.104,"end":639.682,"text":"府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管 那就教育部請回 抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限"},{"start":640.727,"end":664.725,"text":"部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方"},{"start":666.857,"end":669.959,"text":"我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩"},{"start":698.129,"end":713.187,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?"},{"start":719.654,"end":748.147,"text":"我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態"},{"start":749.648,"end":756.734,"text":"事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導"},{"start":758.223,"end":775.51,"text":"因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好"},{"start":781.601,"end":798.839,"text":"部長 我在這邊具體的建立好不好 要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模 只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內 一個小時以上"},{"start":799.6,"end":816.295,"text":"我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":817.336,"end":844.67,"text":"好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,"},{"start":846.347,"end":852.368,"text":"農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道"},{"start":873.567,"end":895.331,"text":"衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚"},{"start":898.443,"end":905.511,"text":"你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?"},{"start":917.805,"end":922.749,"text":"從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快"},{"start":942.957,"end":970.685,"text":"衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的"},{"start":972.705,"end":994.716,"text":"這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎"},{"start":999.048,"end":1006.294,"text":"我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,"},{"start":1015.114,"end":1038.408,"text":"你看 花幾個部會 花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛 也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔 對不起2023年他其實是 他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳"},{"start":1040.73,"end":1061.455,"text":"他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧"},{"start":1064.178,"end":1076.821,"text":"有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人"},{"start":1092.906,"end":1116.763,"text":"一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦"},{"start":1124.226,"end":1137.954,"text":"好不好 我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來"},{"start":1138.615,"end":1161.099,"text":"哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 那一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝六位委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1461,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時52分）好，謝謝主席。先請CDC的署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["劉委員建國：署長，剛剛聽你的說明跟報告，因應疫情再起，相關的防疫物資應該都準備就緒了。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：現在是5月，我們就直接講，預估6月、7月、8月這3個月在臺灣的確診人數大致上可能是多少？你們有抓出來嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜，大概可能會超過20萬人次。"],["劉委員建國：一個禮拜就超過20萬人？"],["莊署長人祥：20萬人。"],["劉委員建國：一個禮拜？"],["莊署長人祥：一個禮拜。"],["劉委員建國：是指6月份的哪一個禮拜？"],["莊署長人祥：6月底、7月初。"],["劉委員建國：6月底、7月初？"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：好。那如果以6月加7月，你們預估會確診的人數是多少？你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛。"],["莊署長人祥：對。應該主要還是在這個前後幾周，那應該是說，可能……"],["劉委員建國：抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診，沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底臺灣會有多少人確診？"],["莊署長人祥：8月底的時候我們預估大概會有171萬左右。"],["劉委員建國：到8月底就預估將近170萬人？"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人確診，等於每個月將近有30萬人又確診，是這樣嗎？是不是？"],["莊署長人祥：最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次。"],["劉委員建國：你為什麼一直要跟我講最高？我在問你6月、7月、8月嘛。"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對，6、7、8。"],["劉委員建國：你一下子回我一個星期，一下子又回我到8月底。"],["莊署長人祥：對，到8月初的時候是171萬人左右。"],["劉委員建國：8月初，所以等於是6月、7月這兩個月就會有將近180萬人確診？"],["莊署長人祥：是。差不多。"],["劉委員建國：是這樣嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：是、是、是。"],["姜署長至剛：我稍微補充一下，因為我們食藥署跟CDC一起去評估，我們評估起來，預估去就診的人數，不是確診的人數，就診的時候，我們評估要2.5倍的快篩試劑的量，所以預估會去就診的人，因為有很多感冒的，有時候是流感……"],["劉委員建國：不是。FDA的署長，我是在問確診，你卻答復我就診。"],["莊署長人祥：對。我們是利用健保署的診斷碼去估，大概就是估到170萬，剛剛我跟您說的就是，預估到8月初的時候在170萬左右。"],["劉委員建國：是確診嘛，對不對？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，臨床診斷，有包括醫師的診斷，還有加上快篩陽性的部分。"],["劉委員建國：你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低確診人數？"],["莊署長人祥：這個部分，我們在昨天記者會有說，就是呼籲民眾自主戴口罩，也就是說，到了醫院或是大眾交通工具，第一個是可以戴口罩。第二個就是在長照機構，我們有請長照機構加強注意感染管制的措施。還有，就是說，如果可以接種疫苗的話，也呼籲接種。"],["劉委員建國：署長，我的問題很簡單，我的問題也有重點，從6月、7月到8月初，等於是兩個月時間而已，你們預估在臺灣可能有將近高達180萬人確診，在這種情況之下，你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫，看是不是可以降低確診的人數。因為你看，180萬人確診，短短兩個月，你要知道醫療機構能夠承載嗎？現在整個醫療資源這麼緊迫的情況之下，如果這兩個月又面臨有180萬人確診，醫護真的會疲於奔命，醫療會崩壞。"],["莊署長人祥：是，跟委員報告，主要還是以輕症為主，所以我們在診所跟醫院事實上都有提供口服藥物。"],["劉委員建國：你故意答覆我說輕症為主，你答覆我這樣就不夠專業吧，現在臺灣的醫療什麼情況，我相信你比我都更清楚。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長也更應該了解到這個狀況，所以現在不是輕重症的問題。"],["莊署長人祥：我們也呼籲，如果是……"],["劉委員建國：我要表達的是，如果你相關的物資都已經齊備，也召開了記者會，但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變，思考如何降低確診人數，這兩個月不要達到180萬個臺灣人再度確診COVID-19，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：第一個是……"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以提出相對的因應作為，降低確診的人數，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：不要讓臺灣的醫療在這兩個月又邁入黑暗期，導致整個醫療系統崩壞，導致很多醫護到時候又有很多狀況，沒有辦法在工作崗位持續守護臺灣國人健康，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以，一個禮拜內提出來，好不好？"],["莊署長人祥：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。兩位請回。","好，請部長。部長，我剛剛講這個事情非常重要，我也不希望你當了部長之後還是疲於奔命在應付COVID-19，如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬人確診，即便輕症是占70%，那代表還有30%的中症跟重症，臺灣的醫療量能有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會趕快提出具體的策略。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。最好不要達到那個數字就對了，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，儘量把它降低。"],["劉委員建國：我4月23日在委員會有提出，跟部長也提醒了，其實國內的醫院被駭客入侵的問題非常嚴重嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：從今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的狀況發生，我在問的時候，問5月會不會有相同的情況繼續發生，結果又發生了。5月輔大醫院被駭客入侵，而且這一次是自己人做的，內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面，瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資，這是一個個案嗎？臺灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵？不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料，連內部員工都有辦法入侵，而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資，這是聯合報的一篇報導，我們的衛福部資訊處的李處長有在現場吧？請出來一下，好不好？來，到台上。你看，這篇報導說，針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理，目前衛福部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院，輔大醫院並沒有列入，依規定，若發生資安問題，不須通報。李處長，你在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，李處長剛剛有來，10點半換成副處長代理。"],["劉委員建國：好，他有事先提出10點半要離開嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有。他有提出。"],["劉委員建國：有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：10點半，他有提出。"],["劉委員建國：召委的資料裡面沒有喔。有啦，寫10點半。","現在是王副處長嘛，對不對？王副處長，李處長答覆這樣是對的嗎？若依規定，發生資安問題不須通報，因為輔大不在53家關鍵基礎設施醫院之內，是這樣嗎？他可以這樣答覆嗎？可以嗎？"],["王副處長美珠：跟委員報告，因為依照資通安全管理法，只有關鍵基礎設施是不……"],["劉委員建國：依照什麼法？"],["王副處長美珠：資通安全管理法。"],["劉委員建國：資通安全管理法？"],["王副處長美珠：是。"],["劉委員建國：有明確規範？"],["王副處長美珠：是。"],["劉委員建國：關鍵基礎設施的醫院才必須要通報？"],["王副處長美珠：就是依法須通報，那本部有建立一個資安情資蒐集……"],["劉委員建國：到底要不要通報？明確表達好不好？要不要通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：這個東西的話，就是在個資法裡面，要通報的只有那53醫院家，所以超過這53家醫院的話，是不用通報，但是我們可以做行政調查，所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去做行政調查。"],["劉委員建國：依照這個辦法規定，除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報……"],["李技監兼處長建璋：需要一小時之內通報。"],["劉委員建國：一小時內就要通報嘛，對不對？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：對。"],["劉委員建國：不是就不需要通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：不需要一小時之內通報，但還是要通報。"],["劉委員建國：所以還是要通報嘛。分作一小時之內跟一小時之外就對了啦。"],["李技監兼處長建璋：對對對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你剛剛的解釋，還有包含你們副處長的解釋，有點奇怪，辦法裡面寫這麼清楚，你們要這麼對外講法，這是你講的沒有錯吧？你說，依規定若發生資安問題，不須通報，你後面才再補一句「一個小時內跟一個小時以上」你們可以這樣對外解釋嗎？你要讓我再問下去嗎？要不要通報嘛？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：要。就是說，一個小時外的話，醫院發生這些事件，應該……"],["劉委員建國：這是資安問題。"],["李技監兼處長建璋：是。"],["劉委員建國：能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎？你有相關的辦法跟依據，該通報就通報啊。什麼叫做資安問題不須通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：我覺得這個解釋的過程中他可能沒有完整的……"],["劉委員建國：所以要怪記者，要怪這個報紙？請部長再看一下報導，醫院發生入侵事件之後，還有另外的報導，說在院內做這樣的事的人，是為了競選工會的代表，他盜用多名醫護人員的帳密，被自己的同事發現後提告，後續又查出他利用遠端連線，駭進醫院的資料庫，瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資，包含第一名模林志玲家族在內，上萬病患的個資恐外洩，教育部有派人來吧？你們做什麼樣的因應作為跟處置？輔大是教育部管的吧？"],["邱部長泰源：輔大醫院應該是衛福部管吧？"],["劉委員建國：既然是衛福部管，那教育部請回，抱歉。"],["邱部長泰源：媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況，輔大醫院也不是很大，所以我相信輔大醫院應該會做立即的處理，不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務電腦，一定要把他受限。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你講的這個報導應該接近屬實嘛，對不對？你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛，沒有錯吧？好，那如果是這樣……"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要再去確認一下……"],["劉委員建國：但是你剛才已經有答復我這樣了。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我是說可能……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，好，沒關係，也就是說可能接近屬實嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：可能不是完全掌握到真實的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：是。我要表達，我反而不是針對院方，我要針對衛福部，你們的SOP是什麼？你們的解釋依據，法律的解釋，管理辦法的解釋，然後產生的SOP是什麼？如果這個報導接近屬實，還是屬實，怎麼這一個醫事人員現在還可以在醫院裡面，然後這樣持續性地讓病患的個資外洩？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：跟委員報告一下我們的SOP，就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這個部分，是由醫事司指導衛生局，所以已經第一時間去做行政調查，那行政調查……"],["劉委員建國：醫事司主導，醫事司要調查，來，醫事司司長請上來，你主導了嗎？你調查了嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我要補充的是，我們發文給新北市衛生局，就醫院管理這部分做調查，然後個資洩露的部分，醫院的權責主管機關，我們會督導衛生局做調查，做事件後面的調查……"],["劉委員建國：你什麼時候發文？"],["劉司長越萍：事件當天下午其實就發文，我們也是見報知道的，我們就是傍晚的時候發文，只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態。"],["劉委員建國：事件發生之後你們就發文了？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：你等一下把那一張公文傳給委員會做參考。"],["劉司長越萍：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好。然後你什麼時候督導？"],["劉司長越萍：因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到，所以我們會再問一下衛生局，可是因為檢調機關已經進入調查，所以他們現在手邊有的東西，這個地方我會再確認。"],["劉委員建國：檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查，你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛，你們該督導還是該督導嘛，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好。部長，我在這邊具體地建議，要求就三項，重新檢視這整個資安通報制度，不論規模，只要有病患個資外洩疑慮，就必須要進行資安的通報，依照辦法也是如此。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：至於那個一個小時以內或一個小時以上，我想可能要修。","第二個，同時衛福部及地方衛生局在接獲醫療院所資安通報之後，整個應變機制及醫療院所要進行的因應措施也必須重新檢討。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["劉委員建國：兩週內是不是可以提出相關報告？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。","最後，因應主席的說法，剛剛黃秀芳召委有特別跟部長就教，提到臺灣能不能成立一個兒少專責單位，部長也有做一些回應嘛，對不對？但是到現在還沒有看到具體跨出一大步，就是沒有嘛，顯然沒有就會出問題，剛剛黃委員也特別引用了，去年是龍年，龍年臺灣出生的寶寶數量是13萬，你知道12年前的龍年臺灣出生的寶寶是多少嗎？部長知道嗎？12年前的龍年。"],["呂次長建德：差不多20萬。"],["劉委員建國：不只吧，應該不只吧。"],["邱部長泰源：有可能不只，差不多二十幾萬。"],["劉委員建國：你們都不知道，衛福部有一個兒少的單位，專門在注意出生率的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：出生率是國發會。"],["劉委員建國：出生率是國發會在關注，沒有錯啦。衛福部要來照顧這些兒童，連12年前的龍年出生率和出生人數是多少都不清楚。"],["呂次長建德：差不多20萬啦。"],["劉委員建國：你不要說差不多20萬，說不定是16萬，剩下的6萬你們放到哪裡？"],["呂次長建德：19萬。"],["劉委員建國：19萬，現在確定是19萬了？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：19萬是12年前的龍年出生人數，剛才說差不多20萬，也有人說是21萬，也有人說是22萬，現在剩下19萬，那上一年剩幾萬？剩13萬嘛，對不對？你看減少多少？12年減少50%，這是很恐怖的一件事情。所以我們一直在講少子化、少子化、要因應少子化，然後整個相關經費0到6歲國家一起養，從小英一直到賴總統，甚至要進入到2.0，如果我們看到少子化整個的脈絡，出生率降低的速度之快，衛福部會難辭其咎喔，這是其一。","其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講，而且剛剛黃委員特別提到，這筆經費很多人講過了，我要跟部長講，大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂！過去內政部還有個兒童局，對不對？然後組改之後弄到沒有了，局長就坐在那裡嘛，併到社家署之後，看起來社家署是兒童業務的單一窗口，但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的，這個我想呂次也很清楚，0到2歲大家都很清楚，兒童托育服務社家署管，2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管，兒童安置是社家署管，兒虐又變成保護司管，對不對？然後剴剴案更複雜，從社家署、保護司、到地方政府都有份，甚至於負責剴剴收出養的兒福聯盟竟然是歸教育部管的文教單位，你看這個複雜嗎？我一直說剴剴那個孩子我們的社會安全網有接到耶，不是沒有接到，結果接到之後生命又不見了！你再看，內政部還有個少輔會，警政署還有個婦幼隊，你看跨幾個部會、跨幾個機關？","這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考，我想你們都很用心的為臺灣的醫療去世衛發聲，那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛，也可以借鏡，日本在2013年，對不起，是2023年，其實它已經整合叫做兒童家庭廳，它之前一樣，兒童相關的保護照顧業務也分散在文部科學省、厚生勞動省、內閣府、警察廳，跟我們的現況差不多，但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整合完成叫做兒童家庭廳，有其必要吧？有其必要依據這樣的參考，不然你看社家署現在人力的分配，呂次應該會很累，社家署署長也應該會很累，老人福利組12人、身心障礙福利組18人、婦女福利及企劃組18人、兒少福利組17人、家庭支持組21人。一個是兒少出生率越來越低，只有17個人；一個是老人越來越多，2021年已經「生不如死」，現在已經邁到超高齡社會，20%是65歲以上的老人。人口結構快速的轉變，專門在照顧最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的社會家庭署，竟然各組分別才都只有十幾個人，這樣沒辦法應付啦，這樣沒辦法處理事情啦，好不好？我請部長還有次長是不是儘快研擬，應該是1個月內，是不是可以參照日本的做法，因應臺灣要照顧更多的兒少，讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來，哪怕是一個三級機關、哪怕是一個部會，你只要一發動，我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院argue這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：可以，我們覺得這個是非常必要的。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["邱部長泰源：而且一直真的積極在研議中。"],["劉委員建國：好，1個月內喔！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：這樣才代表積極嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長，謝謝次長，謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：接下來請陳培瑜委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}}