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12:21:14","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:12:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:21:14+08:00","duration":547,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162035","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162035","tool":"pyannote","id":"162035-pyannote"},"job_id":"QnFvtt2rYqVffCGb","queued_at":"2025-05-28 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\"start\": 536.559, \"end\": 536.719, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 536.719, \"end\": 536.939, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 536.939, \"end\": 537.399, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 537.399, \"end\": 537.64, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 537.64, \"end\": 537.74, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 537.74, \"end\": 537.88, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 537.88, \"end\": 538.26, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 538.26, \"end\": 538.48, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 538.48, \"end\": 538.76, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 538.76, \"end\": 539.02, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 539.02, \"end\": 539.2, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 539.2, \"end\": 539.981, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 539.981, \"end\": 540.101, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 540.101, \"end\": 540.241, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 540.241, \"end\": 540.341, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 540.341, \"end\": 540.481, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 540.481, \"end\": 540.661, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 540.661, \"end\": 540.821, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 540.821, \"end\": 541.221, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 541.221, \"end\": 541.602, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 541.602, \"end\": 541.842, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 541.842, \"end\": 541.922, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 541.922, \"end\": 542.042, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 542.042, \"end\": 542.162, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 542.162, \"end\": 542.402, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"置\", \"start\": 542.402, \"end\": 542.542, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 542.542, \"end\": 542.642, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 542.642, \"end\": 542.882, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 542.882, \"end\": 543.223, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 543.223, \"end\": 543.343, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 543.343, \"end\": 543.443, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"培\", \"start\": 543.443, \"end\": 543.503, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 543.503, \"end\": 543.683, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 543.683, \"end\": 543.863, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 543.863, \"end\": 543.883, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:03,013\n謝謝主席那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:19,793 --> 00:00:36,592\n好部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管\n\n3\n00:00:38,024 --> 00:00:57,054\n所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好回到推法裡面我今天想要談\n\n4\n00:00:58,115 --> 00:01:21,342\n在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對\n\n5\n00:01:23,296 --> 00:01:34,363\n那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚\n\n6\n00:01:36,203 --> 00:01:59,281\n從凱凱愛我們可以看見其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸對不對\n\n7\n00:02:00,702 --> 00:02:26,054\n邏輯上是這樣就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律透過預算透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣下一張\n\n8\n00:02:28,175 --> 00:02:55,112\n這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6\n\n9\n00:02:56,613 --> 00:03:25,582\n就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那\n\n10\n00:03:25,962 --> 00:03:45,787\n我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個\n\n11\n00:03:48,468 --> 00:03:59,691\n申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%\n\n12\n00:04:10,649 --> 00:04:33,621\n部長次長好了那我們請次長回答次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解完全了解那我跟委員報告現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善那我跟委員報告您剛剛所說的整個我們現在目前人力比我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4這是第一個等一下什麼時候什麼時候\n\n13\n00:04:36,974 --> 00:04:48,590\n我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過\n\n14\n00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:54,557\n現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準\n\n15\n00:05:14,782 --> 00:05:32,618\n分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助\n\n16\n00:05:38,693 --> 00:05:54,693\n對安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後\n\n17\n00:05:55,214 --> 00:06:19,975\n但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下\n\n18\n00:06:20,796 --> 00:06:34,604\n包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持\n\n19\n00:06:39,767 --> 00:06:45,452\n但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的\n\n20\n00:06:54,580 --> 00:07:20,470\n分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對\n\n21\n00:07:21,870 --> 00:07:38,546\n你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況\n\n22\n00:07:39,247 --> 00:07:49,310\n也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議\n\n23\n00:08:02,394 --> 00:08:19,799\n協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看\n\n24\n00:08:20,447 --> 00:08:37,327\n包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都\n\n25\n00:08:39,630 --> 00:09:03,883\n所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t3013\t謝謝主席 那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒 謝謝\n19793\t36592\t好 部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管\n38024\t57054\t所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對 次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好 回到推法裡面我今天想要談\n58115\t81342\t在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對\n83296\t94363\t那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚\n96203\t119281\t從凱凱愛我們可以看見 其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因 我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果 結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸 對不對\n120702\t146054\t邏輯上是這樣 就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律 透過預算 透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣 下一張\n148175\t175112\t這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6\n176613\t205582\t就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦 柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那\n205962\t225787\t我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個\n228468\t239691\t申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%\n250649\t273621\t部長 次長好了 那我們請次長回答 次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好 次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解 完全了解 那我跟委員報告 現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善 那我跟委員報告 您剛剛所說的整個 我們現在目前人力比 我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4 這是第一個等一下 什麼時候什麼時候\n276974\t288590\t我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過\n292876\t294557\t現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準\n314782\t332618\t分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助\n338693\t354693\t對 安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦 事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後\n355214\t379975\t但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下\n380796\t394604\t包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持\n399767\t405452\t但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的\n414580\t440470\t分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對\n441870\t458546\t你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況\n459247\t469310\t也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議\n482394\t499799\t協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看\n500447\t517327\t包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都\n519630\t543883\t所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒 謝謝\n好 部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管\n所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對 次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好 回到推法裡面我今天想要談\n在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對\n那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚\n從凱凱愛我們可以看見 其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因 我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果 結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸 對不對\n邏輯上是這樣 就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律 透過預算 透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣 下一張\n這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6\n就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦 柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那\n我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個\n申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%\n部長 次長好了 那我們請次長回答 次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好 次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解 完全了解 那我跟委員報告 現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善 那我跟委員報告 您剛剛所說的整個 我們現在目前人力比 我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4 這是第一個等一下 什麼時候什麼時候\n我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過\n現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準\n分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助\n對 安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦 事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後\n但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下\n包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持\n但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的\n分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對\n你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況\n也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議\n協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看\n包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都\n所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:03.013\n謝謝主席那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒謝謝\n\n00:19.793 --> 00:36.592\n好部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管\n\n00:38.024 --> 00:57.054\n所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好回到推法裡面我今天想要談\n\n00:58.115 --> 01:21.342\n在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對\n\n01:23.296 --> 01:34.363\n那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚\n\n01:36.203 --> 01:59.281\n從凱凱愛我們可以看見其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸對不對\n\n02:00.702 --> 02:26.054\n邏輯上是這樣就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律透過預算透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣下一張\n\n02:28.175 --> 02:55.112\n這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6\n\n02:56.613 --> 03:25.582\n就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那\n\n03:25.962 --> 03:45.787\n我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個\n\n03:48.468 --> 03:59.691\n申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%\n\n04:10.649 --> 04:33.621\n部長次長好了那我們請次長回答次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解完全了解那我跟委員報告現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善那我跟委員報告您剛剛所說的整個我們現在目前人力比我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4這是第一個等一下什麼時候什麼時候\n\n04:36.974 --> 04:48.590\n我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過\n\n04:52.876 --> 04:54.557\n現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準\n\n05:14.782 --> 05:32.618\n分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助\n\n05:38.693 --> 05:54.693\n對安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後\n\n05:55.214 --> 06:19.975\n但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下\n\n06:20.796 --> 06:34.604\n包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持\n\n06:39.767 --> 06:45.452\n但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的\n\n06:54.580 --> 07:20.470\n分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對\n\n07:21.870 --> 07:38.546\n你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況\n\n07:39.247 --> 07:49.310\n也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議\n\n08:02.394 --> 08:19.799\n協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看\n\n08:20.447 --> 08:37.327\n包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都\n\n08:39.630 --> 09:03.883\n所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":3.013,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒 謝謝"},{"start":19.793,"end":36.592,"text":"好 部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管"},{"start":38.024,"end":57.054,"text":"所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對 次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好 回到推法裡面我今天想要談"},{"start":58.115,"end":81.342,"text":"在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對"},{"start":83.296,"end":94.363,"text":"那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚"},{"start":96.203,"end":119.281,"text":"從凱凱愛我們可以看見 其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因 我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果 結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸 對不對"},{"start":120.702,"end":146.054,"text":"邏輯上是這樣 就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律 透過預算 透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣 下一張"},{"start":148.175,"end":175.112,"text":"這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6"},{"start":176.613,"end":205.582,"text":"就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦 柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那"},{"start":205.962,"end":225.787,"text":"我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個"},{"start":228.468,"end":239.691,"text":"申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%"},{"start":250.649,"end":273.621,"text":"部長 次長好了 那我們請次長回答 次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好 次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解 完全了解 那我跟委員報告 現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善 那我跟委員報告 您剛剛所說的整個 我們現在目前人力比 我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4 這是第一個等一下 什麼時候什麼時候"},{"start":276.974,"end":288.59,"text":"我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過"},{"start":292.876,"end":294.557,"text":"現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準"},{"start":314.782,"end":332.618,"text":"分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助"},{"start":338.693,"end":354.693,"text":"對 安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦 事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後"},{"start":355.214,"end":379.975,"text":"但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下"},{"start":380.796,"end":394.604,"text":"包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持"},{"start":399.767,"end":405.452,"text":"但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的"},{"start":414.58,"end":440.47,"text":"分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對"},{"start":441.87,"end":458.546,"text":"你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況"},{"start":459.247,"end":469.31,"text":"也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議"},{"start":482.394,"end":499.799,"text":"協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看"},{"start":500.447,"end":517.327,"text":"包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都"},{"start":519.63,"end":543.883,"text":"所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1618,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長，部長在走上台的時候，我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於兒少的關心，而且你舉了日本的例子，非常棒，謝謝。","部長你剛剛回應建國委員說1個月內會研議，部長我跟你報告，在行政院兒少權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21日列案當中，不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭之部會最後狀態叫做「未列管」，所以在行政院那邊兒少權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情，如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議，你們1個月內要研議，我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，次長應該知道我在講什麼，我們有兒少權益推動小組。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，回到兒童托育服務法，我今天想要談在CRC國內法化之後，我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候，不管是家庭、不管是學校、不管是社區，我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接住所有的小孩，這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。衛福部在這幾年也確實做了非常多資源的盤點，包含人力、包含資源，可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題，我相信次長或部長一定都非常清楚，從剴剴案我們可以看見，臺灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多，脆家越來越多有很多原因，我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點，可是我們回過來看結果，結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多，照理說照顧這些來自脆家小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸，對不對？邏輯上是這樣，就是我這張兒童權利公約，所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講？意思就是國內法化後，政府規定政府自己透過法律、透過預算、透過人力，我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧，可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩，所以剴剴才會被送到居托中心的保母家。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長跟次長，我要跟你們報告一個現況，現在是這樣，這些脆家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去，我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式照顧的差異，我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境，因為這些安置機構的困境會展現、投射在他們服務的小孩身上，現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分，目前我們的規定依設置標準第二十二之一條，不管是保育員或是生輔員的照顧比是1比6，就是1個大人要照顧6個小朋友，這很困難啦！部長你覺得呢？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我自己一個人顧我們家2個小孩就已經手忙腳亂了，更何況這些來自脆家的小孩，他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的，孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構，但事實上就是如此，所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩要1比6的狀況下去照顧，我們看到孩子的困境，回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人，讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕？所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6，目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在，因為這些孩子需要被照顧，可是如果符合勞基法是要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班，所以1個機構絕對不會只有1個或2個生保員，不管是保育員或是生輔員，至少要聘3到4個，可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準只補助1.47倍的人力，而且每一個人只補一萬九，甚至這些補助還設下條件：條件一、機構要自籌一萬八；條件二、機構進住率要高於50%。部長……請次長回答好了，次長你對這個非常熟悉，好不好，次長你聽懂我說的困境了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我了解，完全了解。跟委員報告，確實現在因應脆家安置的部分一定要改善，我跟委員報告，您剛剛所說的目前人力比1比6，我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4，這是第一個……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下！什麼時候？"],["呂次長建德：什麼時候……"],["陳委員培瑜：我很開心聽到這個。"],["呂次長建德：我們現在正在修子法，跟委員報告，其實之前我跟衛環委員會有去南投那邊……"],["陳委員培瑜：是、是，是那個陳綢兒少家園那邊……"],["呂次長建德：陳綢兒少家園那邊，我看了說實在的，那些孩子用1比6真的根本不可能照顧。"],["陳委員培瑜：是啊、是啊！"],["呂次長建德：所以回來我跟部長報告，部長也很支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：1比4嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，這是第一個，1比4……"],["陳委員培瑜：給我一個時間點，讓我們好想像，還是之後辦公室再找你們討論好不好？我們辦公室再找你們討論。"],["呂次長建德：好，可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，再來。"],["呂次長建德：另外第二個就是我們現在會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準，分級補助……"],["陳委員培瑜：分級分類我等一下會跟你討論，沒錯，好，再來。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。另外一個就是專業服務費，如果一般性個案是2萬元，但是特殊需求者我們現在要提高到3萬8,898元，就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎？你訂一個法然後它要出這個錢？"],["呂次長建德：我們這邊會……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是你們衛福部補助？"],["呂次長建德：對，安置費用是地方政府編列。"],["陳委員培瑜：對啦，事情就是這樣，就是因為他是……"],["呂次長建德：所以現在委員你的意思是可能中央這邊也要一起幫忙大家，還是……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，因為我知道財劃法之後一定下去，就是明年開始。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：財劃法下去之後，地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情？"],["呂次長建德：委員你也了解，財劃法下去地方真的……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是我覺得我們要強力協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說的這個很美好的目標，不過我認為補助人數、補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件，你剛剛規定它要自籌一萬八，然後進住率還要高於50%，我覺得這個要調整啦！"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼進住率……因為我們希望孩子們是回到類家的狀態比較多，然後離開機構越來越多，我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎？我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下。"],["呂次長建德：好，報告委員，那個簡單，委員剛剛提到就是50%的部分，這個我覺得也不合理，所以我們覺得這部分會研議把它刪除，這是第一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了！"],["呂次長建德：另外第二點您剛剛所說的，沒錯，地方政府是負責安置費用，但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助，這是中央，我們中央會來支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得這個很……"],["呂次長建德：但是地方也必須要有一些成效，我們也不能說……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我知道、這我知道，我認同，所以我們後續來討論細節，我今天先把問題提出來，但是我很開心先聽到1比6變1比4。"],["呂次長建德：好，可以，我們後續再跟委員辦公室這邊來……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，再來分級分類，下一張，就是我剛剛跟你說的，分級分類你們確實現在有做嘛，你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理，說實話這個分類很rough，它其實可能也不適用於現場，而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子，甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議，你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是說實話，我們如果遇到從脆家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況的，其實1比4的loading都還是太重，對不對？你可以想像嘛！"],["呂次長建德：嗯，對啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子發作的時候，通常可能兩、三個生保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的，但是因為為了照顧這個小孩，其他小孩就會被落在一邊，這是現場很不得不的狀況。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：這也不是生保員的錯，所以我這邊要強力的要求，我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論，甚至跟很多民間團體討論，一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩，假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案，我所謂的報就是陳報這個數字上來，陳報這個數字上來給地方政府、給衛福部，我們要如何去研議協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構？因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是地方政府有沒有這個意識？我相信從衛福部開始很重要，因為衛福部訂定相關法律規範讓地方政府去遵守，我覺得是重要的，我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，完全同意這個方向。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["呂次長建德：確實我那時候去看，有些孩子說實話是難置兒，他甚至把冷氣整個拔掉了，我看了覺得那個怎麼可能是1比4？可能1比1可能都……"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["呂次長建德：所以我完全同意這個方向，我們會全力來把這個安置機構的教養環境好好處理好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。還是要回到那一張，CRC公約說我們要照顧這些，這些都是國家的小孩，他只是家庭暫時出了狀況，有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題，時間有限，我尊重主席，我們後續還有很多安置機構的狀況再一起討論，謝謝主席。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，謝謝部長。","委員會在這邊做宣告：我們大約12點40分會休息到下午2點，等一下的質詢到張雅琳委員質詢完畢之後就進行休息，謝謝。","接下來請李彥秀委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}}