{"id":162040,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b075f6290a57a309e795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eed89bdc5088dcae9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:32:00 - 12:37:49","影片長度":"00:05:49","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:32:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:37:49+08:00","duration":349,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162040","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162040","tool":"pyannote","id":"162040-pyannote"},"job_id":"HkpzDI712KqV5K6f","queued_at":"2025-05-28 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\"end\": 345.346, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 345.346, \"end\": 345.366, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"託\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,766 --> 00:00:06,609\n好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了\n\n2\n00:00:26,570 --> 00:00:47,590\n那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中\n\n3\n00:00:48,551 --> 00:01:02,768\n補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己\n\n4\n00:01:03,588 --> 00:01:30,039\n涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他\n\n5\n00:01:31,940 --> 00:01:50,281\n然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦\n\n6\n00:01:51,002 --> 00:02:02,611\n重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了\n\n7\n00:02:04,238 --> 00:02:21,099\n怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人\n\n8\n00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:42,869\n那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行\n\n9\n00:02:45,350 --> 00:03:12,168\n这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的\n\n10\n00:03:12,788 --> 00:03:31,237\n那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後\n\n11\n00:03:32,057 --> 00:03:44,022\n一堆家長來跟我說欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦\n\n12\n00:03:45,785 --> 00:04:07,254\n所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意\n\n13\n00:04:15,714 --> 00:04:33,454\n那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議\n\n14\n00:04:34,836 --> 00:05:04,111\n跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方\n\n15\n00:05:04,651 --> 00:05:26,161\n那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論\n\n16\n00:05:27,321 --> 00:05:45,366\n所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3766\t6609\t好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了\n26570\t47590\t那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中\n48551\t62768\t補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己\n63588\t90039\t涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他\n91940\t110281\t然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦\n111002\t122611\t重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了\n124238\t141099\t怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人\n142040\t162869\t那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行\n165350\t192168\t这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的\n192788\t211237\t那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後\n212057\t224022\t一堆家長來跟我說 欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有 台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦\n225785\t247254\t所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意\n255714\t273454\t那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議\n274836\t304111\t跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方\n304651\t326161\t那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論\n327321\t345366\t所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了\n那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中\n補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己\n涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他\n然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦\n重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了\n怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人\n那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行\n这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的\n那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後\n一堆家長來跟我說 欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有 台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦\n所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意\n那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議\n跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方\n那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論\n所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.766 --> 00:06.609\n好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了\n\n00:26.570 --> 00:47.590\n那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中\n\n00:48.551 --> 01:02.768\n補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己\n\n01:03.588 --> 01:30.039\n涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他\n\n01:31.940 --> 01:50.281\n然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦\n\n01:51.002 --> 02:02.611\n重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了\n\n02:04.238 --> 02:21.099\n怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人\n\n02:22.040 --> 02:42.869\n那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行\n\n02:45.350 --> 03:12.168\n这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的\n\n03:12.788 --> 03:31.237\n那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後\n\n03:32.057 --> 03:44.022\n一堆家長來跟我說欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦\n\n03:45.785 --> 04:07.254\n所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意\n\n04:15.714 --> 04:33.454\n那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議\n\n04:34.836 --> 05:04.111\n跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方\n\n05:04.651 --> 05:26.161\n那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論\n\n05:27.321 --> 05:45.366\n所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.766,"end":6.609,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了"},{"start":26.57,"end":47.59,"text":"那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中"},{"start":48.551,"end":62.768,"text":"補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己"},{"start":63.588,"end":90.039,"text":"涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他"},{"start":91.94,"end":110.281,"text":"然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦"},{"start":111.002,"end":122.611,"text":"重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了"},{"start":124.238,"end":141.099,"text":"怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人"},{"start":142.04,"end":162.869,"text":"那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行"},{"start":165.35,"end":192.168,"text":"这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的"},{"start":192.788,"end":211.237,"text":"那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後"},{"start":212.057,"end":224.022,"text":"一堆家長來跟我說 欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有 台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦"},{"start":225.785,"end":247.254,"text":"所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意"},{"start":255.714,"end":273.454,"text":"那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議"},{"start":274.836,"end":304.111,"text":"跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方"},{"start":304.651,"end":326.161,"text":"那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論"},{"start":327.321,"end":345.366,"text":"所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1741,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。對於托育專法，其實大家都非常期待，在早上提案說明的時候，我也已經強調我的重點了。除了保母記點制大家比較有共識之外，我也希望在真正審查的時候，保母記點制大家可以儘快通過。除了保母記點制，我也要講一下借殼上市，甚至可以說是借屍還魂這種機構到底要怎麼處理，不知道在我早上做完提案說明之後，衛福部是不是已經心裡有底。","在此之前，我也先跟衛福部私下做過了解到底要怎麼樣在法律中補起這個漏洞。這件事情真的非常重要，我還是再簡單說明一下這樣的違法樣態到底是什麼。其實我5年前在高雄市就已經處理過了，當時這名楊姓負責人自己涉及虐嬰，該機構當然立刻被廢止了，這名負責人也不可以再執業。可是過了5年，她重起爐灶，除了借殼上市之外，還直接請她的先生申請擔任負責人。其實我私下問過地方的社會局，這不就是當初那位太太，她已經明顯虐嬰、甚至你們已經廢止營業，怎麼這個時候又發照給她？社會局跟我說沒辦法，於法無據啊！法律上沒有任何依據可以阻止她申請設立。所以他們雖然知道有風險，但還是發照給她了，也就是說，5年之後，這個托嬰機構又在原址重新開業。這個負責人還偷偷跟他人借名字，在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒，結果5年後又有一批家長出面爆料，哇！她又虐嬰了。那怎麼辦？地方說還是會照法律處理啊！至於處理什麼？偽造文書，因為她實質上是借別人的名字行托育之實嘛！結果只能用偽造文書方式處理這種實質再行虐嬰、二度虐嬰的負責人，這種情況該怎麼辦呢？所以在我的版本裡面，從事前防堵、事中監管到事後懲罰都列在裡面。當然可能會有一點爭議，爭議在於不能傷害無辜的人，例如她先生沒有虐嬰，而是太太虐嬰。可是她的先生開了這個機構，為什麼不行？那我們要很細緻地處理，明明知道是有風險的，那可不可以在事前審核的時候就設定一些可裁罰項目或設立標準？即便真的不能影響人家的自由，例如她先生沒有這樣的前科，因此發照給他、他也開立機構了，但他的太太也不能出現在這個園區啊！因為她明明就是有虐嬰之實的人、是有前科的，這種對象就應該讓地方社會局有機會加強監管。","以上是我在這次修法裡面很想放進去、很細緻的條文，我就在這邊請教部長的意見，對於這樣的樣態，你們有沒有去了解過？我揭發完之後，又有一堆家長跟我說其實不只高雄，臺中也有、臺南也有，全臺灣這種借殼上市的托嬰機構、且過去有不良紀錄者多的是，這種樣態到底該怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。委員所提出這些訴求真的比較精緻化，而且比較公平，也就是說有些人沒有這樣，就不會不能做……但是也絕對不能借殼上市或借屍還魂，也就是做的都是一樣的、同樣由這些違規的人照顧。這些我們要精細地規範、在法律上要能做一點處理，我想這才是法的用意。"],["黃委員捷：那是不是可以請進行條文相關業務的人說明一下你們對於這些樣態了解的程度，以及接下來如果討論修法文字的話是不是可以照我的版本，或者你們有什麼建議？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告。其實在這樣的問題上，除了怎麼樣精準地限制借殼上市，同時也困擾怎麼樣避免傷及無辜。要怎樣平衡，其實最困難的點是實質認定，例如前後申請的經營者之間是否具有實質上的關聯，這是我們目前在行政上所碰到最需要突破的地方。至於後面討論，在我們目前所查證到的相關法規裡面，好像只在健保特約上有一些類似規定，但同樣面臨規定制定下去之後會不會傷及無辜的問題，這邊確實有兩難的狀況，所以需要比較細緻的討論。"],["黃委員捷：所以這點要拜託你們，因為接下來就要進入實質審查了。對於這項托育專法，大家是有時程壓力的，在此是不是可以直接拜託部長，請同仁回去之後研究這些細緻的條文，最好你們也提版本，到時候跟我的一起對照討論，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，應該的。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長，拜託喔！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}}