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\"好\", \"start\": 797.786, \"end\": 797.806, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 797.806, \"end\": 797.826, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,426 --> 00:00:08,729\n謝謝主席請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的\n\n2\n00:00:24,232 --> 00:00:46,185\n有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔\n\n3\n00:00:48,820 --> 00:01:06,413\n老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯\n\n4\n00:01:07,113 --> 00:01:35,879\n他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子\n\n5\n00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:55,857\n可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保\n\n6\n00:01:56,457 --> 00:02:15,297\n被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會\n\n7\n00:02:16,859 --> 00:02:25,689\n老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金\n\n8\n00:02:31,015 --> 00:02:58,737\n他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保\n\n9\n00:02:59,958 --> 00:03:27,033\n但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入\n\n10\n00:03:28,084 --> 00:03:56,509\n因為他實際從事農業這裡這裡輕容一半喔幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會漁業的從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保就是甲類會員的部分嘛\n\n11\n00:03:57,189 --> 00:04:07,079\n同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝\n\n12\n00:04:15,988 --> 00:04:30,953\n今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率\n\n13\n00:04:42,577 --> 00:04:45,980\n那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題\n\n14\n00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,663\n還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題\n\n15\n00:05:27,057 --> 00:05:49,291\n就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們\n\n16\n00:05:50,071 --> 00:06:09,996\n提出的誘因不夠那當然我們有提到啦誘因要提高的話是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛那這個研議的話我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了那你研議目前討論下來是不是願意支持這個方案\n\n17\n00:06:10,376 --> 00:06:39,299\n不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分\n\n18\n00:06:40,182 --> 00:06:45,868\n不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛\n\n19\n00:06:58,703 --> 00:07:26,335\n所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好\n\n20\n00:07:26,895 --> 00:07:51,050\n我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好\n\n21\n00:07:52,011 --> 00:08:17,125\n好接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對本勞跟\n\n22\n00:08:17,945 --> 00:08:35,838\n移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工\n\n23\n00:08:37,179 --> 00:09:01,769\n那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請\n\n24\n00:09:02,709 --> 00:09:26,255\n那個農會去協助變成一個外展外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討\n\n25\n00:09:29,056 --> 00:09:51,680\nOK部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數你喜歡講基數外展的基數是什麼沒有它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會為什麼用農漁會申請\n\n26\n00:09:56,872 --> 00:10:16,281\n沒有合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好也許做三個月休三個月做三個月休三個月有這種情形所以很多\n\n27\n00:10:19,337 --> 00:10:36,569\n小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的\n\n28\n00:10:38,570 --> 00:10:50,923\n意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量\n\n29\n00:10:52,813 --> 00:11:12,068\n又不是實質的數量本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個這個原額我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話你是35%但是這原額還是不夠遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛\n\n30\n00:11:18,052 --> 00:11:47,621\n他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人\n\n31\n00:11:48,261 --> 00:12:02,875\n為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦\n\n32\n00:12:05,777 --> 00:12:34,566\n必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是\n\n33\n00:12:35,086 --> 00:12:52,727\n不是啊我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多\n\n34\n00:12:54,042 --> 00:13:10,862\n有一比二不是一比一嗎沒有一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有我們這個要去爭取\n\n35\n00:13:11,423 --> 00:13:17,826\n所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5426\t8729\t謝謝主席 請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的\n24232\t46185\t有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔\n48820\t66413\t老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯\n67113\t95879\t他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子\n96799\t115857\t可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保\n116457\t135297\t被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會\n136859\t145689\t老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金\n151015\t178737\t他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保\n179958\t207033\t但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入\n208084\t236509\t因為他實際從事農業這裡 這裡輕容一半喔 幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會 你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會 漁業的 從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保 就是甲類會員的部分嘛\n237189\t247079\t同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝\n255988\t270953\t今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率\n282577\t285980\t那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題\n309680\t312663\t還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題\n327057\t349291\t就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們\n350071\t369996\t提出的誘因不夠 那當然我們有提到啦 誘因要提高的話 是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高 甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛 那這個研議的話 我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了 那你研議目前討論下來 是不是願意支持這個方案\n370376\t399299\t不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分\n400182\t405868\t不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛\n418703\t446335\t所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好\n446895\t471050\t我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好\n472011\t497125\t好 接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對 本勞跟\n497945\t515838\t移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工\n517179\t541769\t那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個 制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請\n542709\t566255\t那個農會去協助變成一個外展 外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討\n569056\t591680\tOK 部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數 你喜歡講基數 外展的基數是什麼沒有 它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會 為什麼用農漁會申請\n596872\t616281\t沒有 合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好 也許做三個月 休三個月做三個月 休三個月有這種情形所以很多\n619337\t636569\t小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的\n638570\t650923\t意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量\n652813\t672068\t又不是實質的數量 本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個 這個原額 我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度 1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分 是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話 你是35%但是這原額還是不夠 遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛\n678052\t707621\t他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人\n708261\t722875\t為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦\n725777\t754566\t必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是\n755086\t772727\t不是啊 我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有 所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多\n774042\t790862\t有一比二 不是一比一嗎沒有 一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調 你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞 一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有 我們這個要去爭取\n791423\t797826\t所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的\n有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔\n老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯\n他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子\n可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保\n被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會\n老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金\n他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保\n但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入\n因為他實際從事農業這裡 這裡輕容一半喔 幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會 你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會 漁業的 從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保 就是甲類會員的部分嘛\n同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝\n今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率\n那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題\n還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題\n就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們\n提出的誘因不夠 那當然我們有提到啦 誘因要提高的話 是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高 甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛 那這個研議的話 我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了 那你研議目前討論下來 是不是願意支持這個方案\n不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分\n不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛\n所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好\n我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好\n好 接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對 本勞跟\n移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工\n那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個 制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請\n那個農會去協助變成一個外展 外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討\nOK 部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數 你喜歡講基數 外展的基數是什麼沒有 它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會 為什麼用農漁會申請\n沒有 合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好 也許做三個月 休三個月做三個月 休三個月有這種情形所以很多\n小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的\n意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量\n又不是實質的數量 本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個 這個原額 我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度 1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分 是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話 你是35%但是這原額還是不夠 遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛\n他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人\n為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦\n必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是\n不是啊 我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有 所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多\n有一比二 不是一比一嗎沒有 一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調 你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞 一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有 我們這個要去爭取\n所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.426 --> 00:08.729\n謝謝主席請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的\n\n00:24.232 --> 00:46.185\n有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔\n\n00:48.820 --> 01:06.413\n老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯\n\n01:07.113 --> 01:35.879\n他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子\n\n01:36.799 --> 01:55.857\n可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保\n\n01:56.457 --> 02:15.297\n被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會\n\n02:16.859 --> 02:25.689\n老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金\n\n02:31.015 --> 02:58.737\n他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保\n\n02:59.958 --> 03:27.033\n但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入\n\n03:28.084 --> 03:56.509\n因為他實際從事農業這裡這裡輕容一半喔幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會漁業的從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保就是甲類會員的部分嘛\n\n03:57.189 --> 04:07.079\n同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝\n\n04:15.988 --> 04:30.953\n今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率\n\n04:42.577 --> 04:45.980\n那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題\n\n05:09.680 --> 05:12.663\n還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題\n\n05:27.057 --> 05:49.291\n就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們\n\n05:50.071 --> 06:09.996\n提出的誘因不夠那當然我們有提到啦誘因要提高的話是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛那這個研議的話我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了那你研議目前討論下來是不是願意支持這個方案\n\n06:10.376 --> 06:39.299\n不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分\n\n06:40.182 --> 06:45.868\n不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛\n\n06:58.703 --> 07:26.335\n所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好\n\n07:26.895 --> 07:51.050\n我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好\n\n07:52.011 --> 08:17.125\n好接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對本勞跟\n\n08:17.945 --> 08:35.838\n移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工\n\n08:37.179 --> 09:01.769\n那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請\n\n09:02.709 --> 09:26.255\n那個農會去協助變成一個外展外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討\n\n09:29.056 --> 09:51.680\nOK部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數你喜歡講基數外展的基數是什麼沒有它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會為什麼用農漁會申請\n\n09:56.872 --> 10:16.281\n沒有合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好也許做三個月休三個月做三個月休三個月有這種情形所以很多\n\n10:19.337 --> 10:36.569\n小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的\n\n10:38.570 --> 10:50.923\n意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量\n\n10:52.813 --> 11:12.068\n又不是實質的數量本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個這個原額我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話你是35%但是這原額還是不夠遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛\n\n11:18.052 --> 11:47.621\n他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人\n\n11:48.261 --> 12:02.875\n為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦\n\n12:05.777 --> 12:34.566\n必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是\n\n12:35.086 --> 12:52.727\n不是啊我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多\n\n12:54.042 --> 13:10.862\n有一比二不是一比一嗎沒有一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有我們這個要去爭取\n\n13:11.423 --> 13:17.826\n所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.426,"end":8.729,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的"},{"start":24.232,"end":46.185,"text":"有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔"},{"start":48.82,"end":66.413,"text":"老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯"},{"start":67.113,"end":95.879,"text":"他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子"},{"start":96.799,"end":115.857,"text":"可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保"},{"start":116.457,"end":135.297,"text":"被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會"},{"start":136.859,"end":145.689,"text":"老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金"},{"start":151.015,"end":178.737,"text":"他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保"},{"start":179.958,"end":207.033,"text":"但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入"},{"start":208.084,"end":236.509,"text":"因為他實際從事農業這裡 這裡輕容一半喔 幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會 你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會 漁業的 從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保 就是甲類會員的部分嘛"},{"start":237.189,"end":247.079,"text":"同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝"},{"start":255.988,"end":270.953,"text":"今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率"},{"start":282.577,"end":285.98,"text":"那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題"},{"start":309.68,"end":312.663,"text":"還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題"},{"start":327.057,"end":349.291,"text":"就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們"},{"start":350.071,"end":369.996,"text":"提出的誘因不夠 那當然我們有提到啦 誘因要提高的話 是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高 甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛 那這個研議的話 我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了 那你研議目前討論下來 是不是願意支持這個方案"},{"start":370.376,"end":399.299,"text":"不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分"},{"start":400.182,"end":405.868,"text":"不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛"},{"start":418.703,"end":446.335,"text":"所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好"},{"start":446.895,"end":471.05,"text":"我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好"},{"start":472.011,"end":497.125,"text":"好 接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對 本勞跟"},{"start":497.945,"end":515.838,"text":"移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工"},{"start":517.179,"end":541.769,"text":"那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個 制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請"},{"start":542.709,"end":566.255,"text":"那個農會去協助變成一個外展 外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討"},{"start":569.056,"end":591.68,"text":"OK 部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數 你喜歡講基數 外展的基數是什麼沒有 它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會 為什麼用農漁會申請"},{"start":596.872,"end":616.281,"text":"沒有 合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好 也許做三個月 休三個月做三個月 休三個月有這種情形所以很多"},{"start":619.337,"end":636.569,"text":"小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的"},{"start":638.57,"end":650.923,"text":"意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量"},{"start":652.813,"end":672.068,"text":"又不是實質的數量 本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個 這個原額 我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度 1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分 是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話 你是35%但是這原額還是不夠 遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛"},{"start":678.052,"end":707.621,"text":"他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人"},{"start":708.261,"end":722.875,"text":"為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦"},{"start":725.777,"end":754.566,"text":"必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是"},{"start":755.086,"end":772.727,"text":"不是啊 我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有 所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多"},{"start":774.042,"end":790.862,"text":"有一比二 不是一比一嗎沒有 一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調 你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞 一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有 我們這個要去爭取"},{"start":791.423,"end":797.826,"text":"所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1210,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（12時27分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：延伸林委員剛才的問題，有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保，因為公保、勞保跟農保，我們就只能選擇一個投保，請問有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在不行。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在不行嘛，但你剛才答應林委員說要研議，我不懂你要怎麼研議。"],["陳部長駿季：我們這樣講，如果他的勞保是受雇於人的話，是由他的雇主去提撥6%；至於剛才我講的是，有一些年輕人可能在二十幾歲到三十歲之間是在公司服務……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有錯，他原來是在公司服務，他加入勞保，但他又轉做青農之後，就不在公司工作了嗎？還是同時有在公司工作？"],["陳部長駿季：他是用職業工會……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果是職業工會，那就要有選擇性，只能投保一個，可以雙重保險嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：不可以，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：他是一個保險，但是他可以加入農民職業工會。"],["呂委員玉玲：他如果投勞保，然後來加入農民的退休儲金，可以這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：修法就可以了。"],["呂委員玉玲：修法？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們知道如果有公保跟勞保的部分，是可以分開計算，合併給付，但這是有選擇性的，如果你的第一個階段是勞保，後來轉做公務人員，你就沒有勞保，要改成公保，所以要停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個，但你的年資可以繼續計算，即分開計算、合併給付。但是你現在說可以繼續保勞保，又可以申請農民的退休儲金……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣子不就雙保啦？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，勞保對應……"],["呂委員玉玲：勞保有沒有勞保退休金？"],["陳部長駿季：是勞保年金，他不能領勞保退休金；他如果加入我們農業退休儲金的話，就不能勞保退休金。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他可以保勞保，不能領勞保退休金，可以來領農民的退休儲金？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是用這樣的方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：法要修得清楚，也請部長到時候要講清楚，不同的保險可以這樣子。像我們第一個階段勞保完畢，下個階段是公保，才可以分開計算，合併給付；現在是同時有勞保，又同時有農民退休儲金……"],["陳部長駿季：勞保對應的是農保，他有勞保，就不能來保農保，但他在農保的時候沒有雇主，而且實際從事農業……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的意思是他繼續保勞保，然後又可以在這邊申請農民的退休儲金？所以是兩個不同的保險……"],["陳部長駿季：他一定要從事農業，勞保對應的是農保，然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金。"],["呂委員玉玲：他的勞保可以繼續保嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：勞保繼續保。"],["呂委員玉玲：農民退休儲金繼續……"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以開放他加入，因為他實際從事農業，這裡青農幾乎一半……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他可以做兩個工作？投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作？"],["陳部長駿季：他可以去投保職業工會。"],["呂委員玉玲：加入職業工會，等於不管是你個人的工作，還是工作室，還是自由業，反正你有投勞保的人……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，像從事漁業的人很多是投勞保的，就是甲類會員的部分，同樣的在這個部分我想……"],["呂委員玉玲：修法要講清楚，本席今天不是問這個問題，但因這個部分會延伸出很多的爭議。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會把它釐清。"],["呂委員玉玲：會有雙保，但不是兩保並行，這會有衝突的地方，所以一定要注意。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會把它釐清。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長。今天，主席特別安排農民退休儲金條例修正草案的審議，就是因為你們的執行力不好，但是部長早上在報告中講到，是母數的計算不一樣，問題是農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率，你說母數不一樣，你們已經達成了49%。我們不談數字上的變化，我們實質確切的來執行工作，才是重要的，不管怎麼樣講，將近五年的時間，未滿65歲的農保人數覆蓋率大概是28.7%，部長說它的原因大概就是意願的問題，還有他們的能力投不了這麼高；如果以勞基法的話，現在是28,590，10%的話，就要2,859元，有些人繳不起，所以也就沒有來投保。最重要的還有一個問題，就是他們的勞農津貼現在可以領8,110元，他也許會認為8,000塊就夠了；雖然部長立意良善，希望他們可以領農民的這個退休儲金，能夠領多一點，有一萬、兩萬；但是看到退休儲金執行率不彰的情況下，可能就是我們提出的誘因不夠。當然我們也提到誘因要提高的話，是不是你們對等提撥的金額也可以提高至1.5倍，部長說還要再研議，你們下個月就要提行政院的版本，目前討論下來，你們是不是願意支持這個方案？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，委員所提的版本是1比1.5，就是把總額提高，農民出100，政府出150，從100變成150，這是一個方案；我們的另外一個想法，就是總額不變，100對100，但過去農民交100，現在只要交80或70，還要討論，就是他的負擔減輕了，保障不變。但也有可能這兩個案子，可以有某個程度的融合。"],["呂委員玉玲：不管你怎麼融合，農民的權益不能損失……"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對不會，農民退休儲金就是保障農民的退休。"],["呂委員玉玲：還是請你們儘快提出來，我們希望實質的來幫助農民，不要讓農民覺得很辛苦，就不耕農了，因為現在青年返鄉務農的情況也不是很好，所以我們在地方上才會鼓勵由青農從事代耕的工作，不用再交給佃農，由青農組團來做，不管是耕種或者收割，青農都是有專業的，還有科技智慧的技術都能夠來協助。所以，也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農，尤其農機具的這個部分要多支持他們，他們用無人機來灑農藥或者用機械來收成，都做得非常好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們的農事服務業，現在推得也還不錯，包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農也來申請農機的服務，所以除了他自己耕作以外，還可以服務別人，這樣的話農地就可以共享。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙改善他們在農耕上的辛苦，希望部長在這個部分，能繼續支持他們，可以再加強農機具這方面。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來要請教的是移工問題。我知道你們在移工的人數上已提高到兩萬，但是在申請的制度上需不需要再檢討？因為還有很多人找不到農事移工，尤其是10人以下的農戶和農企業的部分，本勞跟外勞是1比1……"],["陳部長駿季：本來是1比3，我們現在降到1比1。"],["呂委員玉玲：1個本勞就可以請一個移工，對不對？10人以上的大型農戶，才有35%，1比3的比例，但現在還是缺很多移工，部長知道其中的原因嗎？制度上有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項，有的品項有開，有的品項沒開，這個部分我們會再滾動檢討；第二部分就是移工請來了以後，不是那麼單純白天做事，晚上就讓他亂跑，如果自營的話，你就要準備他住的房子，還要做一些管理……"],["呂委員玉玲：吃住的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是吃住的地方。所以我們現在也有請農會協助，變成一個外展的部分，這部分我們會加強，還有外展的部分只能在同一個縣市，但是收割的時候，就會跨縣市的從南到北，所以我們也在研議跨縣、跨區……"],["呂委員玉玲：近距離的部分可以跨區。"],["陳部長駿季：所以很多問題遇到了，我們就想辦法去解決，這個部分我們會持續來滾動檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長剛剛提到外展，你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：外展的特性就是會隨著……"],["呂委員玉玲：你喜歡講基數，外展的基數是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：它會根據你用工的單位，本身所需要勞力種植生產的技術，所以會不一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是由農漁會來做申請。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼由農漁會申請？"],["陳部長駿季：合作社也可以。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長剛才少談到一個問題，因為我們很多的農作是季節性的，如果我請了這個移工，我不需要他12個月都做事，也許是做3個月、休3個月，做3個月、休3個月的這種情形，所以很多小農戶由佃農幫忙耕作就可以了，現在因為佃農工資上漲至兩千塊以上，有時候收成後的收入不好，就會影響到他們請佃農的意願，於是就有休耕的情形發生。","現在有這兩個制度，在員額的部分，你剛剛提到高達兩萬，但這兩萬又不是實質的數量；本席查到一些資料，我們第一個講到的是這個員額不夠，還有你制度1對1的就是外展部分，還有10人以下的部分也是1比1的方式，如果10人以上的是35%……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在要解決的就是10人以上的……"],["呂委員玉玲：但是這員額還是遠遠不夠，因為有些屬於大農戶，有些是做外銷的，比如有機蔬菜或是有什麼水果是大量出口的，他所需要的農業移工就還是不夠，所以在制度上，你必須要去做調整。","還有你說增加到兩萬人，但本席查了資料，這兩萬人裡面，現有的移工1萬1,205人；失聯的有2,019人；轉出的有385人；回去他們國家的有1,533人，為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內？他都已經失聯、轉出、回國了！我們現在講的是現職部分要提高到兩萬人。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您的這個資訊，就是勞動部都是用累計的……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你找不到的，就沒有在實質的工作上面……"],["陳部長駿季：像回國的就扣掉了。"],["呂委員玉玲：必須要扣掉！"],["陳部長駿季：回國的一定會扣掉，轉出的也會扣掉，就是實際在從事農業的，我們才會去算，現在大概是一萬五千多人，我們核准的是兩萬人，然後正在申請的，現在在職的大概一萬五千多人。所以委員講的這個部分，包括移工的部分、季節性的部分，我們後續要找農會，因為農會可以服務更多不同的農作物產業……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我剛剛跟你講的制度面，就只有討論到農會的部分，如果他的員工50人，他就可以申請50人，但是在這個區域裡面，這50個人還是不夠用……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們要想辦法去爭取，它現在是1比3，想辦法變成1比2，這樣就可以聘得更多。"],["呂委員玉玲：有1比2？不是1比1嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：10人以下就是1比1……"],["呂委員玉玲：你1比2要怎麼調？"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望可以更多，讓他的本勞可以一個人顧兩個。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這個部分還沒有公布實施吧？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們要去爭取。"],["呂委員玉玲：未來你會公布實施，所以你也發現問題，所以你要做個調整，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，他可以聘更多人。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長有發現這個問題的話，就趕快做調整來公布，讓農民可以繼續把農作物做得更好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會跟勞動部研議，也請委員支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定會支持，你只要把調整做出來，就儘快送來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請林楚茵委員做詢答，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","現在請賴惠員委員做詢答，賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員做詢答，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員做詢答，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。本日議程詢答完畢，另外擇期再繼續審查，謝謝大家。散會。","散會（12時41分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}}