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\"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 898.73, \"end\": 898.87, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 898.87, \"end\": 898.97, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 898.97, \"end\": 899.11, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 899.11, \"end\": 899.13, \"score\": 0.013}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:14,283\n麻煩我們的部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:24,895 --> 00:00:39,452\n委員好部長三年了因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度\n\n3\n00:00:40,553 --> 00:01:00,778\n那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒少全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條\n\n4\n00:01:01,818 --> 00:01:28,449\n那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來\n\n5\n00:01:29,669 --> 00:01:52,454\n過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子\n\n6\n00:01:53,885 --> 00:02:20,998\n不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊\n\n7\n00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:41,515\n就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在\n\n8\n00:02:43,737 --> 00:03:06,655\n像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置甚至過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果也因為\n\n9\n00:03:08,056 --> 00:03:31,082\n這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種案子嗎好謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎\n\n10\n00:03:35,054 --> 00:03:54,770\n跟委員報告目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安\n\n11\n00:03:55,410 --> 00:04:22,079\n是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則\n\n12\n00:04:22,859 --> 00:04:46,435\n那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎\n\n13\n00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,219\n後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊\n\n14\n00:04:56,751 --> 00:05:20,608\n所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有\n\n15\n00:05:22,329 --> 00:05:45,025\n討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考\n\n16\n00:05:45,585 --> 00:05:48,369\n怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則\n\n17\n00:06:00,342 --> 00:06:28,744\n那過去就是原則結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎\n\n18\n00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:58,673\n跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去\n\n19\n00:07:00,074 --> 00:07:09,894\n所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的\n\n20\n00:07:10,427 --> 00:07:33,590\n保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視\n\n21\n00:07:34,651 --> 00:07:49,310\n甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子\n\n22\n00:07:50,251 --> 00:08:19,471\n送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來\n\n23\n00:08:20,912 --> 00:08:35,303\n監督他檢查他輔導他更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分像台北市說要輔導扣分扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府\n\n24\n00:08:36,064 --> 00:09:04,668\n結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府\n\n25\n00:09:05,208 --> 00:09:28,347\n就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到\n\n26\n00:09:29,068 --> 00:09:44,357\n至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰\n\n27\n00:09:45,257 --> 00:09:59,762\n是不是有民意代表介入我不知道那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎\n\n28\n00:10:00,458 --> 00:10:21,875\n我想有責任既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他他還可以上去一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了\n\n29\n00:10:22,555 --> 00:10:47,123\n那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢\n\n30\n00:10:48,368 --> 00:11:16,585\n你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說\n\n31\n00:11:17,105 --> 00:11:35,170\n在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間\n\n32\n00:11:36,090 --> 00:11:59,514\n可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個\n\n33\n00:12:03,115 --> 00:12:25,366\n有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平\n\n34\n00:12:26,987 --> 00:12:41,288\n這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面\n\n35\n00:12:42,069 --> 00:13:01,373\n未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧\n\n36\n00:13:06,594 --> 00:13:21,487\n所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的\n\n37\n00:13:22,148 --> 00:13:42,276\n按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項\n\n38\n00:13:44,597 --> 00:13:56,973\n總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊所以我們希望\n\n39\n00:13:57,372 --> 00:14:24,494\n未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚\n\n40\n00:14:26,738 --> 00:14:49,592\n所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在\n\n41\n00:14:50,165 --> 00:14:59,130\n麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t14283\t麻煩我們的部長請部長\n24895\t39452\t委員好部長三年了因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度\n40553\t60778\t那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒少全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條\n61818\t88449\t那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來\n89669\t112454\t過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子\n113885\t140998\t不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊\n143479\t161515\t就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在\n163737\t186655\t像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置甚至過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果也因為\n188056\t211082\t這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種案子嗎好 謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎\n215054\t234770\t跟委員報告 目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問 如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安\n235410\t262079\t是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則\n262859\t286435\t那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎\n289560\t294219\t後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對 可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊\n296751\t320608\t所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有\n322329\t345025\t討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考\n345585\t348369\t怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則\n360342\t388744\t那過去就是原則 結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊 雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案 而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益 未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎\n391020\t418673\t跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去\n420074\t429894\t所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的\n430427\t453590\t保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視\n454651\t469310\t甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子\n470251\t499471\t送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來\n500912\t515303\t監督他 檢查他 輔導他 更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分 像台北市說要輔導扣分 扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府\n516064\t544668\t結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府\n545208\t568347\t就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到\n569068\t584357\t至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇 那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰\n585257\t599762\t是不是有民意代表介入我不知道 那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎\n600458\t621875\t我想有責任 既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題 當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他 他還可以上去 一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了\n622555\t647123\t那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢\n648368\t676585\t你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說\n677105\t695170\t在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間\n696090\t719514\t可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個\n723115\t745366\t有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平\n746987\t761288\t這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面\n762069\t781373\t未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧\n786594\t801487\t所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的\n802148\t822276\t按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項\n824597\t836973\t總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚 當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊 所以我們希望\n837372\t864494\t未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚\n866738\t889592\t所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在\n890165\t899130\t麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩我們的部長請部長\n委員好部長三年了因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度\n那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒少全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條\n那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來\n過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子\n不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊\n就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在\n像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置甚至過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果也因為\n這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種案子嗎好 謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎\n跟委員報告 目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問 如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安\n是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則\n那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎\n後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對 可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊\n所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有\n討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考\n怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則\n那過去就是原則 結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊 雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案 而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益 未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎\n跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去\n所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的\n保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視\n甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子\n送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來\n監督他 檢查他 輔導他 更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分 像台北市說要輔導扣分 扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府\n結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府\n就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到\n至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇 那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰\n是不是有民意代表介入我不知道 那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎\n我想有責任 既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題 當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他 他還可以上去 一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了\n那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢\n你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說\n在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間\n可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個\n有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平\n這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面\n未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧\n所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的\n按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項\n總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚 當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊 所以我們希望\n未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚\n所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在\n麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:14.283\n麻煩我們的部長請部長\n\n00:24.895 --> 00:39.452\n委員好部長三年了因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度\n\n00:40.553 --> 01:00.778\n那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒少全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條\n\n01:01.818 --> 01:28.449\n那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來\n\n01:29.669 --> 01:52.454\n過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子\n\n01:53.885 --> 02:20.998\n不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊\n\n02:23.479 --> 02:41.515\n就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在\n\n02:43.737 --> 03:06.655\n像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置甚至過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果也因為\n\n03:08.056 --> 03:31.082\n這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種案子嗎好謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎\n\n03:35.054 --> 03:54.770\n跟委員報告目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安\n\n03:55.410 --> 04:22.079\n是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則\n\n04:22.859 --> 04:46.435\n那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎\n\n04:49.560 --> 04:54.219\n後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊\n\n04:56.751 --> 05:20.608\n所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有\n\n05:22.329 --> 05:45.025\n討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考\n\n05:45.585 --> 05:48.369\n怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則\n\n06:00.342 --> 06:28.744\n那過去就是原則結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎\n\n06:31.020 --> 06:58.673\n跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去\n\n07:00.074 --> 07:09.894\n所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的\n\n07:10.427 --> 07:33.590\n保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視\n\n07:34.651 --> 07:49.310\n甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子\n\n07:50.251 --> 08:19.471\n送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來\n\n08:20.912 --> 08:35.303\n監督他檢查他輔導他更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分像台北市說要輔導扣分扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府\n\n08:36.064 --> 09:04.668\n結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府\n\n09:05.208 --> 09:28.347\n就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到\n\n09:29.068 --> 09:44.357\n至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰\n\n09:45.257 --> 09:59.762\n是不是有民意代表介入我不知道那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎\n\n10:00.458 --> 10:21.875\n我想有責任既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他他還可以上去一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了\n\n10:22.555 --> 10:47.123\n那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢\n\n10:48.368 --> 11:16.585\n你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說\n\n11:17.105 --> 11:35.170\n在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間\n\n11:36.090 --> 11:59.514\n可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個\n\n12:03.115 --> 12:25.366\n有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平\n\n12:26.987 --> 12:41.288\n這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面\n\n12:42.069 --> 13:01.373\n未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧\n\n13:06.594 --> 13:21.487\n所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的\n\n13:22.148 --> 13:42.276\n按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項\n\n13:44.597 --> 13:56.973\n總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊所以我們希望\n\n13:57.372 --> 14:24.494\n未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚\n\n14:26.738 --> 14:49.592\n所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在\n\n14:50.165 --> 14:59.130\n麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":14.283,"text":"麻煩我們的部長請部長"},{"start":24.895,"end":39.452,"text":"委員好部長三年了因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度"},{"start":40.553,"end":60.778,"text":"那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒少全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條"},{"start":61.818,"end":88.449,"text":"那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來"},{"start":89.669,"end":112.454,"text":"過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子"},{"start":113.885,"end":140.998,"text":"不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊"},{"start":143.479,"end":161.515,"text":"就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在"},{"start":163.737,"end":186.655,"text":"像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置甚至過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果也因為"},{"start":188.056,"end":211.082,"text":"這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種案子嗎好 謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎"},{"start":215.054,"end":234.77,"text":"跟委員報告 目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問 如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安"},{"start":235.41,"end":262.079,"text":"是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則"},{"start":262.859,"end":286.435,"text":"那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎"},{"start":289.56,"end":294.219,"text":"後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對 可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊"},{"start":296.751,"end":320.608,"text":"所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有"},{"start":322.329,"end":345.025,"text":"討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考"},{"start":345.585,"end":348.369,"text":"怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則"},{"start":360.342,"end":388.744,"text":"那過去就是原則 結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊 雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案 而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益 未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎"},{"start":391.02,"end":418.673,"text":"跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去"},{"start":420.074,"end":429.894,"text":"所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的"},{"start":430.427,"end":453.59,"text":"保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視"},{"start":454.651,"end":469.31,"text":"甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子"},{"start":470.251,"end":499.471,"text":"送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來"},{"start":500.912,"end":515.303,"text":"監督他 檢查他 輔導他 更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分 像台北市說要輔導扣分 扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府"},{"start":516.064,"end":544.668,"text":"結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府"},{"start":545.208,"end":568.347,"text":"就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到"},{"start":569.068,"end":584.357,"text":"至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇 那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰"},{"start":585.257,"end":599.762,"text":"是不是有民意代表介入我不知道 那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎"},{"start":600.458,"end":621.875,"text":"我想有責任 既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題 當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他 他還可以上去 一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了"},{"start":622.555,"end":647.123,"text":"那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢"},{"start":648.368,"end":676.585,"text":"你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說"},{"start":677.105,"end":695.17,"text":"在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間"},{"start":696.09,"end":719.514,"text":"可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個"},{"start":723.115,"end":745.366,"text":"有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平"},{"start":746.987,"end":761.288,"text":"這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面"},{"start":762.069,"end":781.373,"text":"未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧"},{"start":786.594,"end":801.487,"text":"所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的"},{"start":802.148,"end":822.276,"text":"按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項"},{"start":824.597,"end":836.973,"text":"總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚 當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊 所以我們希望"},{"start":837.372,"end":864.494,"text":"未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚"},{"start":866.738,"end":889.592,"text":"所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在"},{"start":890.165,"end":899.13,"text":"麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1919,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩我們的部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，三年了，因為托育服務法在民間就已經討論兩年多，去年希望能夠端出來，結果我們沒有，所以今天就來談談這個兒托法，看是不是能夠補強0到2歲的托育安全制度。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：的確，我們為什麼在民間的時候期待，因為本來兒少權法母法裡面，對於居家托育只有五條在做管理，含罰則，托嬰中心只有四條。可是2到6歲切出去之後，在民國100年訂了幼照法，事實上就是完備的去管理2到6歲，反而托嬰中心只有四條。可是0到2歲的孩子又比2到6歲更年幼，更需要有一個很好的、完善的機構管理，甚至教保人員條例都還有第五十三條，所以我們很希望這個托育服務專法能夠趕快通過。","尤其政府還在催生的時候，我們就一直期待，希望就雙薪家庭的家長有一個服務，讓孩子能夠送出來。過去幾乎只有二比八，我們的0到2歲是二比八，八成是在家裡，兩成送出來給保母。可是後來有托嬰中心之後，現在也有消長，托嬰中心比例上越來越高，就是將近七比三，七成還是在家裡，三成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶。可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大，也因為這樣不當對待的問題越來越嚴重，也越來越多，如果不好好納管的話，就沒有辦法讓家長安心。","你要催生，當然要有一些服務好的品質，所以我們也希望這個法，除了能夠提升我們的法律位階以外，還有強化不當對待的處理，以及明訂居家托育的專章，還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格。在這邊就會看到我們的處理原則原本的位階非常的低，就任由地方緊急安置，所以想問部長，到底你有沒有掌握各縣市近來一般安置、緊安跟收出養安置在保母家的狀況？過去為什麼一直讓這樣子的狀態持續存在？像新北市現在有護苗計畫，有些縣市還是在做這種安置，那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置？甚至過去有某個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子，根本就跟我們原來沒有任何法規時的作法一樣去做安置，那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的照顧孩子的保母制度，因為這次剴剴案凸顯出這個問題很嚴重，但重點是一直以來都是這樣子，所以現在我想知道哪些縣市還在做這種安置。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指導，我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度，也是這一次我們……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我問的是你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請周代理署長說明。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前確實是還有若干縣市還是有用居家保母來做安置。"],["林委員月琴：如果現在還有這樣做，還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的，像這次的兩個劉姓保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人，竟然讓他們去做收出養的安置，我不知道現在一般安置跟緊安是不是還是繼續讓一個沒有經驗、你們也從來沒有訪視輔導的保母去安置嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：確實如同委員所詢問的，以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的原則，我們讓地方政府選任這個居家保母來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則，在這一次的事件發生之後，這個部分我們有先做過一次調整，在這個原則裡面本來就有要求地方政府在選任這一類型保母的時候，對於他在接小孩之前的訓練或者他以往的經驗，其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性的規範。"],["林委員月琴：那我先問一個比較簡單的，你有去監督新北市現在的護苗計畫，確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保母嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：護苗計畫因為是地方政府自己……"],["林委員月琴：對，可是他們就在做緊安跟一般安置啊！所以當把他們放在管理強度不是很強的保母的時候，為什麼不需要強度很強？是因為孩子爸媽送到保母家，晚上會接回去，父母會確定他的孩子有沒有被不當對待，所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們儘速去做處理，目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有討論完畢，在能夠三讀通過之前，請你們還是要密切注意這些還在保母手上的孩子是否安全，這也是我們擔憂的。當然未來我們還是期待，你們既然不走寄養這一塊，還是要安置在保母家的話，你們是不是應該針對這部分思考怎麼去分級？所以想請問部長，是不是可以由中央在法裡邊訂定，納入一套針對保母安置的專門辦法？不要告訴我原則，因為過去就是原則，結果有人要按照這原則做嗎？沒有按照這原則做啊！雙北不按照這原則做，像剴剴案，也沒按照這個原則做啊！所以我想進一步去做分級照顧，才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益，避免未來再有憾事發生。所以請問部長，支持這樣的一個方向嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想另外訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧……"],["林委員月琴：可是你們的版本沒有耶！"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，因為未來大概都是於安置過程中去選擇安置處所，是一個安置地點的選擇，在法制面，我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法著手，未來在選擇安置處所的時候，如果要選擇使用居家保母，相關的一些要求跟規範，我們在研修兒少法修正草案的時候可以把這個議題納進去。"],["林委員月琴：所以這有兩個點，第一個是未來在法律面，希望你們能夠去做分級。第二個是在這個法還沒修過之前，請你們確保各縣市現在在做緊安、一般安置跟收出養安置保母的選擇到底是不是OK，有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導。"],["邱部長泰源：我們去瞭解。"],["林委員月琴：再來是有關居托中心的部分，目前是委由民間單位去做，可是你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠，當他們去訪視的時候，常常是被飆罵、被趕出來，甚至無法進入保母家訪視，且有些大廈管理委員會本來就有些規定在，這點我去年也質詢過，訪視員要去訪視的時候，根本進不到保母家，你明明知道他超收可是也沒辦法，因為管理員就把你擋在門外，等到保母把孩子送到其他鄰居家之後，你才得以進去家裡，那當然不會抓到超收，也抓不到他有沒有一些不當的作為，甚至他有沒有收托非他收托的小孩。我不知道的是既然它的管理權力不足，你們為什麼要它負擔這麼重的責任？一旦有事情的時候，全部都認為是居托中心的責任，問題是你們給了它什麼權力？它沒辦法執行你們的公權力，可是你們卻又要它去執行公權力，然後再來監督它、檢查它、輔導它更是評鑑它，問題是它對保母一點辦法都沒有。","有的地方政府在講扣分，像臺北市說要輔導扣分，扣分公文給了縣市政府，結果縣市政府遲遲不回文，打電話給縣市政府的時候，縣市政府甚至就說不會去處理，那這些管理保母的人到底能做什麼？要知道我（居托中心）是被縣市政府授權去管理保母的，當我認為保母有問題要求記點，也是配合你們縣市政府說的要記點，甚至在他有違反規定的時候，我行文給縣市政府，結果縣市政府就是不裁罰，那麼居托中心對保母還有什麼樣的管轄權力？保母怎麼會相信它呢？因為居托中心根本就沒有power，不是嗎？這種情況由來已久，我在去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目，但似乎迄今還是存在，到現在都還有人跟我反映說他們去文給縣市政府，縣市政府不罰，當然也說因為上面的高層不同意，請問我們所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰？竟然不同意保母被罰！是不是有民意代表介入？我不知道，議員如果有介入這件事情，真的就是沒道理。可是問題是你要讓居托中心怎麼去做呢？所以我不知道到底部長的想法為何，對於這樣子的居托中心，你不給它管理權力卻又要它負全部的責任，這合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想既然要負責任，就應該給它權力。"],["林委員月琴：部長，先問個簡單的問題，依據大廈管理條例裡管委會的職權，到底我能不能進去保母家？因為保母說要等他下來開門接他才可以上去，一等就等半個小時，那工作也真的不要做了！到底我們可不可以只要遲了10分鐘他還不下來，我就開單給他？開這個單要報地方政府同意，且地方政府也確實會讓他開單成功，否則的話，事實上一切都是做虛工，然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望。坦白講，這個工作又不是薪水很高，然後又常常受到拒絕、辱罵，之後他怎麼做得下去呢！"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，誠如委員所指出，過去居托中心的定位，我覺得事實上確實有點微弱。我跟委員報告，在這個新法裡面，我們現在已經把它改成是委託了，委託的話，就是事實上它在整個裁罰上是有公權力的，但是裁罰的權還是要回到縣市政府那邊，因為基本上還是公務員才有辦法做行政處分，就是說我們現在已經將過去做的相關的訪視改採委託的方式。"],["林委員月琴：這樣真的可以授予他們非常高的公權力嗎？因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托講他們進入到保母家，他就是不讓他們開那個房間門，他們硬闖後還要受到保母他們的申訴，可是真的硬闖之後發現裡面確實有好幾個孩子，且都滿頭大汗。所以到底怎麼樣才能讓我們的居托人員可以執行那個公權力？否則的話，坦白講，認真的居托人員搞不好被申訴的比例是最高的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！我知道現在必須要武裝我們這些人員，讓他們有實際的power能夠來進行實際的執行。"],["林委員月琴：我希望這次可以在法律裡面明文規定，然後真的去提供幫助，否則民間團體來承接居托中心，通常沒有權力，可是當有問題的時候，又常常說他們要負起更大的責任，我覺得這不合理也不公平，這樣只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來承接。"],["呂次長建德：好的，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：另外一個就是這次把公共家園跟互助式的訂進去，我非常肯定，不過我覺得政府在研訂未來相關對應的一些子法時，也要去思考公共托育家園裡邊的配套條件，因為這個存在本來就很特別，我們要小型的，如果是12個小孩4個大人裡邊有1個是主管的話，事實上這個人數配比甚至沒有要求廚工這些人員，這些在第一年之後都會是問題。為什麼？因為有勞動權的問題，就是他們要休假，屆時這些孩子又會變成誰來照顧？所以我們希望未來關於這些管理，你們可能要在法律上針對這部分有所考量。還有就是不當對待這部分，我們的政府部門可能也要去想一想，對於這個不當對待，你們現在是用審議會的方式，我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法，從調查委員到認定委員，讓他清楚的被調查，然後最後有一個認定，以確定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼。因為過去不當對待通常都依照兒少權法第四十九條第一項，總共15款裡面，通常不會被認可，我覺得這次的修正，我的版本事實上會是相對比較清楚的，當初我們就希望按照幼照法的這個部分，所以我們希望未來你們在搭配相關子法的時候，也要考慮把它納進去。我們希望政府能把自己的責任明定清楚，還有違規的樣態，都能夠漸漸的建置起來，我覺得這個應該是保護司責無旁貸的工作。因為多年以來，第四十九條施行已久，現在已經不適用，如果說以後不當對待樣態是霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態，應該要很清楚規定。","所以在立法上，我大概希望未來能夠補強以下四點，也就是建立專業分級，即保母要做分級，去做不同強度的，且需另訂辦法；還有就是要賦予居托中心有一些權力；再者是托育服務機構也就是托嬰中心的設立跟管理要更明確；最後是0到2歲不當對待的處理。部長這邊現在送出來的版本如果有所不足的話，可能要再做補充或再去思考。謝謝！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好好想！謝謝！","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","請陳瑩委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}}