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\"end\": 687.557, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:02,611\n第一位柯智源委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝柯委員好主委好我當然等一下針對你們這個解凍案一一來就教於主委不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的有關於派英國公使的這樣子的一個學論問題江雅琪那我也看到\n\n2\n00:00:29,831 --> 00:00:49,200\n就是當初國科會也針對這個部分呢也做出了一些的說明所以我現在問你你應該的說法也是一樣那我們先來看一下這個江博士說實在他是博士沒有錯他只是在這個博士的這個專業這個major的部分裡面大家其實有不同的一個看法我們來看下一個其實你調出這個國科會的個人人才的這個資料表當中其實他跟國科會的相會其實不太多\n\n3\n00:00:55,623 --> 00:01:20,271\n大概只有他当新进人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的\n\n4\n00:01:20,831 --> 00:01:44,582\n但是呢之后他确实用这个我们确实用这个大学里面呢他确实是PhDinLaw这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举\n\n5\n00:01:45,342 --> 00:02:11,943\n表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么\n\n6\n00:02:13,063 --> 00:02:40,757\n兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們\n\n7\n00:02:41,617 --> 00:03:08,488\n我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大\n\n8\n00:03:08,888 --> 00:03:09,249\n因为这个细节\n\n9\n00:03:22,136 --> 00:03:25,117\n我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決\n\n10\n00:03:41,801 --> 00:03:48,903\n那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念\n\n11\n00:04:07,209 --> 00:04:28,334\n問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副\n\n12\n00:04:28,974 --> 00:04:48,995\n要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。\n\n13\n00:04:49,415 --> 00:05:13,680\n是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成\n\n14\n00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:23,081\n学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧\n\n15\n00:05:23,986 --> 00:05:41,384\n不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的\n\n16\n00:05:46,047 --> 00:06:13,977\n对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下\n\n17\n00:06:15,047 --> 00:06:30,977\n凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分\n\n18\n00:06:31,417 --> 00:06:47,636\n我知道可是你的發言是在這裡啊我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛今年有受到影響嗎\n\n19\n00:06:51,221 --> 00:06:58,327\n當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的\n\n20\n00:07:18,194 --> 00:07:27,925\n是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別\n\n21\n00:07:34,913 --> 00:07:48,323\n你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗\n\n22\n00:07:55,253 --> 00:08:11,031\n我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎\n\n23\n00:08:12,732 --> 00:08:26,807\n報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣\n\n24\n00:08:29,182 --> 00:08:44,485\n我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告\n\n25\n00:08:44,926 --> 00:09:12,936\n好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊\n\n26\n00:09:14,016 --> 00:09:41,190\n被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面\n\n27\n00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:45,273\n你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下\n\n28\n00:10:03,127 --> 00:10:05,868\n提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费\n\n29\n00:10:21,255 --> 00:10:24,018\n你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大\n\n30\n00:10:37,310 --> 00:11:03,903\n包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說\n\n31\n00:11:05,103 --> 00:11:20,212\n在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴\n\n32\n00:11:26,616 --> 00:11:27,557\n谢谢谢谢委员\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t2611\t第一位柯智源委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝柯委員好主委好我當然等一下針對你們這個解凍案一一來就教於主委不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的有關於派英國公使的這樣子的一個學論問題江雅琪那我也看到\n29831\t49200\t就是當初國科會也針對這個部分呢也做出了一些的說明所以我現在問你你應該的說法也是一樣那我們先來看一下這個江博士說實在他是博士沒有錯他只是在這個博士的這個專業這個major的部分裡面大家其實有不同的一個看法我們來看下一個其實你調出這個國科會的個人人才的這個資料表當中其實他跟國科會的相會其實不太多\n55623\t80271\t大概只有他当新进人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的\n80831\t104582\t但是呢之后他确实用这个我们确实用这个大学里面呢他确实是PhD in Law这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举\n105342\t131943\t表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么\n133063\t160757\t兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們\n161617\t188488\t我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大\n188888\t189249\t因为这个细节\n202136\t205117\t我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決\n221801\t228903\t那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念\n247209\t268334\t問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副\n268974\t288995\t要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。\n289415\t313680\t是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成\n314500\t323081\t学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧\n323986\t341384\t不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的\n346047\t373977\t对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下\n375047\t390977\t凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分\n391417\t407636\t我知道 可是你的發言是在這裡啊 我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法 你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有 明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛 今年有受到影響嗎\n411221\t418327\t當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委 說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的\n438194\t447925\t是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別\n454913\t468323\t你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗\n475253\t491031\t我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎\n492732\t506807\t報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你 你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎 有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣\n509182\t524485\t我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告\n524926\t552936\t好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊\n554016\t581190\t被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面\n581630\t585273\t你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下\n603127\t605868\t提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费\n621255\t624018\t你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大\n637310\t663903\t包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說\n665103\t680212\t在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴\n686616\t687557\t谢谢 谢谢委员\n","txt":"第一位柯智源委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝柯委員好主委好我當然等一下針對你們這個解凍案一一來就教於主委不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的有關於派英國公使的這樣子的一個學論問題江雅琪那我也看到\n就是當初國科會也針對這個部分呢也做出了一些的說明所以我現在問你你應該的說法也是一樣那我們先來看一下這個江博士說實在他是博士沒有錯他只是在這個博士的這個專業這個major的部分裡面大家其實有不同的一個看法我們來看下一個其實你調出這個國科會的個人人才的這個資料表當中其實他跟國科會的相會其實不太多\n大概只有他当新进人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的\n但是呢之后他确实用这个我们确实用这个大学里面呢他确实是PhD in Law这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举\n表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么\n兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們\n我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大\n因为这个细节\n我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決\n那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念\n問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副\n要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。\n是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成\n学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧\n不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的\n对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下\n凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分\n我知道 可是你的發言是在這裡啊 我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法 你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有 明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛 今年有受到影響嗎\n當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委 說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的\n是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別\n你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗\n我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎\n報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你 你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎 有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣\n我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告\n好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊\n被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面\n你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下\n提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费\n你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大\n包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說\n在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴\n谢谢 谢谢委员\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:02.611\n第一位柯智源委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝柯委員好主委好我當然等一下針對你們這個解凍案一一來就教於主委不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的有關於派英國公使的這樣子的一個學論問題江雅琪那我也看到\n\n00:29.831 --> 00:49.200\n就是當初國科會也針對這個部分呢也做出了一些的說明所以我現在問你你應該的說法也是一樣那我們先來看一下這個江博士說實在他是博士沒有錯他只是在這個博士的這個專業這個major的部分裡面大家其實有不同的一個看法我們來看下一個其實你調出這個國科會的個人人才的這個資料表當中其實他跟國科會的相會其實不太多\n\n00:55.623 --> 01:20.271\n大概只有他当新进人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的\n\n01:20.831 --> 01:44.582\n但是呢之后他确实用这个我们确实用这个大学里面呢他确实是PhDinLaw这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举\n\n01:45.342 --> 02:11.943\n表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么\n\n02:13.063 --> 02:40.757\n兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們\n\n02:41.617 --> 03:08.488\n我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大\n\n03:08.888 --> 03:09.249\n因为这个细节\n\n03:22.136 --> 03:25.117\n我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決\n\n03:41.801 --> 03:48.903\n那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念\n\n04:07.209 --> 04:28.334\n問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副\n\n04:28.974 --> 04:48.995\n要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。\n\n04:49.415 --> 05:13.680\n是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成\n\n05:14.500 --> 05:23.081\n学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧\n\n05:23.986 --> 05:41.384\n不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的\n\n05:46.047 --> 06:13.977\n对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下\n\n06:15.047 --> 06:30.977\n凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分\n\n06:31.417 --> 06:47.636\n我知道可是你的發言是在這裡啊我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛今年有受到影響嗎\n\n06:51.221 --> 06:58.327\n當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的\n\n07:18.194 --> 07:27.925\n是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別\n\n07:34.913 --> 07:48.323\n你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗\n\n07:55.253 --> 08:11.031\n我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎\n\n08:12.732 --> 08:26.807\n報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣\n\n08:29.182 --> 08:44.485\n我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告\n\n08:44.926 --> 09:12.936\n好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊\n\n09:14.016 --> 09:41.190\n被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面\n\n09:41.630 --> 09:45.273\n你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下\n\n10:03.127 --> 10:05.868\n提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费\n\n10:21.255 --> 10:24.018\n你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大\n\n10:37.310 --> 11:03.903\n包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說\n\n11:05.103 --> 11:20.212\n在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴\n\n11:26.616 --> 11:27.557\n谢谢谢谢委员\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":2.611,"text":"第一位柯智源委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝柯委員好主委好我當然等一下針對你們這個解凍案一一來就教於主委不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的有關於派英國公使的這樣子的一個學論問題江雅琪那我也看到"},{"start":29.831,"end":49.2,"text":"就是當初國科會也針對這個部分呢也做出了一些的說明所以我現在問你你應該的說法也是一樣那我們先來看一下這個江博士說實在他是博士沒有錯他只是在這個博士的這個專業這個major的部分裡面大家其實有不同的一個看法我們來看下一個其實你調出這個國科會的個人人才的這個資料表當中其實他跟國科會的相會其實不太多"},{"start":55.623,"end":80.271,"text":"大概只有他当新进人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的"},{"start":80.831,"end":104.582,"text":"但是呢之后他确实用这个我们确实用这个大学里面呢他确实是PhD in Law这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举"},{"start":105.342,"end":131.943,"text":"表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么"},{"start":133.063,"end":160.757,"text":"兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們"},{"start":161.617,"end":188.488,"text":"我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大"},{"start":188.888,"end":189.249,"text":"因为这个细节"},{"start":202.136,"end":205.117,"text":"我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決"},{"start":221.801,"end":228.903,"text":"那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念"},{"start":247.209,"end":268.334,"text":"問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副"},{"start":268.974,"end":288.995,"text":"要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。"},{"start":289.415,"end":313.68,"text":"是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成"},{"start":314.5,"end":323.081,"text":"学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧"},{"start":323.986,"end":341.384,"text":"不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的"},{"start":346.047,"end":373.977,"text":"对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下"},{"start":375.047,"end":390.977,"text":"凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分"},{"start":391.417,"end":407.636,"text":"我知道 可是你的發言是在這裡啊 我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法 你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有 明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛 今年有受到影響嗎"},{"start":411.221,"end":418.327,"text":"當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委 說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的"},{"start":438.194,"end":447.925,"text":"是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別"},{"start":454.913,"end":468.323,"text":"你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗"},{"start":475.253,"end":491.031,"text":"我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎"},{"start":492.732,"end":506.807,"text":"報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你 你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎 有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣"},{"start":509.182,"end":524.485,"text":"我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告"},{"start":524.926,"end":552.936,"text":"好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊"},{"start":554.016,"end":581.19,"text":"被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面"},{"start":581.63,"end":585.273,"text":"你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下"},{"start":603.127,"end":605.868,"text":"提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费"},{"start":621.255,"end":624.018,"text":"你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大"},{"start":637.31,"end":663.903,"text":"包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說"},{"start":665.103,"end":680.212,"text":"在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴"},{"start":686.616,"end":687.557,"text":"谢谢 谢谢委员"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時16分）謝謝召委，是不是請主委？"],["主席：有請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。等一下我會針對你們的解凍案一一來就教於主委，不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的，有關於派英國公使江雅綺的學倫問題。我看到了當初國科會針對這個部分也做出了一些說明，所以我現在問你，你的說法應該也是一樣。","我們先來看一下，這位江博士，說實在的，他是博士沒有錯，只是在博士的專業、major的部分，大家持有不同的看法。其實，如果調出國科會的研究人才詳細資料表，可以看到他跟國科會的相會其實不太多，大概只有他是新進人員研究的時候有獲得一個研究計畫，因為我們通常只看計畫主持人，計畫主持人最重要，至於共同主持人，通常就是掛了好多人，但是以計畫主持人來說，其他兩個都是申請出席國際學術會議，這不算，所以以計畫來說的話，他當初申請的學門代碼是民事法，這是他目前為止跟國科會以及在法的這個層面當中是比較有關的，大學裡面他確實是PhD in Law這個部分，而且他是在2014年獲得國科會一項補助，這麼久以來就獲得這麼一項補助，以法的觀點來看。","然後到2022年，大概經過了8年的時間，有人向國科會做一個檢舉，表示這8年來，他所刊載的所謂學門專門的這個部分來說引起了很大的質疑。我們來看一下，劉靜怡這位當時的法律召委當然就會提出質疑，而且他們是7人全數通過要送學倫，但是到學倫大會大概是一票之差，然後就沒有成立。為什麼這兩個的差距這麼大？主委，就你的理解，到底是為什麼？兩個單位為什麼對於這樣的一個認定差距這麼大？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的細節，但是就同仁跟我報告的資料，當初他向國科會申請計畫的時候，他自己填寫的資料，就好像所有人都會填自己的履歷嘛……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：履歷上他怎麼填，其實沒有人會……"],["柯委員志恩：我們也感到很奇怪，明明是社會科學院畢業的，為什麼硬要說自己是法學院，這個部分其實也是到目前為止大家認為在integrity的部分是受到很大的質疑。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：而且是國科會去函希望能夠把他的這個部分匡正完之後，他才做修正，這經過了非常長的時間，所以我說不是博士學位的問題，而是他的integrity的問題，這個問題，其實說大也很大，如果任何人拿到博士學位，但他自己的major是什麼卻可以任意填寫，這個部分對很多人來說是很不可思議的事情，不是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為這個細節我並不是很清楚，但是我知道當初的確有進到那個學術……"],["柯委員志恩：學倫啊！學倫會告訴你的就是，因為他有念過法，所以他可以寫法學，這也沒什麼不好，你贊同這樣的說法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有進到學術倫理委員會討論，依照程序討論完之後，委員就是要表決嘛，可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵，但是還不至於到……"],["柯委員志恩：你還是能夠重複這個學倫會的說法，我覺得這就是integrity的問題，這是一個觀感的問題，我們沒有質疑他的博士學位，但是對於他號稱自己是法學博士，而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正，那麼他就會用這樣的學位一直到底，這也就是大家質疑的地方，你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念，所以問題是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：當初我們的確有要求他一定要……"],["柯委員志恩：要去匡正，可是你看你們國科會的網站，國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下，國科會只要就媒體的報導做出說明就好，大可不必在你們的網站上登載他自己的個人說法：科技部判定還公道。這句話不用登在你們的網站上，這是他個人的說法。就我來說，如果國科會要求我匡正，我不覺得是還我公道，我覺得是我有疏失，怎麼可能說是公道！所以國科會的網站就針對你們的說明就好，不用框上這個所謂利益關係人自己的說法，這是我給國科會的一個建議，並沒有還他公道，國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們應該就照實解釋就好。"],["柯委員志恩：本來就是嘛！而且我也不能理解他的動機到底在哪裡，我覺得當社科院博士也蠻好的，為什麼一直要說自己是法學博士，法學博士難道會比社科博士地位來得高一點嗎？這我完全不認可，我想在場很多人都不得而知，特別是學社會科學學門的人，不過這絕對是一個瑕疵，以至於當他被派任的時候，其實學位的部分，博士學位該怎麼樣就怎麼樣，主委也不贊成去框一個不屬於他的學門，這點是無庸置疑的吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不過現在國科會各個學門的計畫申請，不見得都是原學門的教授……"],["柯委員志恩：當然啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在很多是跨領域的研究。"],["柯委員志恩：我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門，你可以看我自己的，我就會框一個對我自己有利的部分，我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫，從頭到尾，有教育學門、科學教育、師範教育等等，我們都會框一個對自己有利的學門，但是當初這個部分，他就把自己框成是法律博士，我覺得這對大部分的人來說，真的是有違反學術倫理的層面。","接下來我們把事情釐定清楚，來看看你們的基本行政工作維持（特別費）的部分，當初被凍結117萬9,000元，對不對？主委，我還是要特別澄清一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會整體來講，凍結有1億8,000萬。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但是我要針對你的說法，你說因為財劃法的關係，如照比例調整，會被減列200億……"],["吳主任委員誠文：財劃法是另外一回事，我是說今年被凍結的部分。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但你的發言在這裡，這是你們新聞的說法，國科會真的有被財劃法修法影響嗎？大標題寫在這個地方啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：財劃法……"],["柯委員志恩：還沒有嘛！明年才上路，這只是行政院目前的解釋，你幹嘛跟著人家講說因為這個關係，你們受到200億的影響？我現在只問今年，今年有受到影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當時媒體問的是財劃法的影響，當然這是明年，如果財劃法修正案……"],["柯委員志恩：這邊新聞是寫「國科會114年度預算約200億元受到影響，不利臺灣科技發展」。主委，說話必須要憑證據，今年……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不是講今年，我絕對沒有講財劃法會影響今年……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那你去更正一下，這邊寫「國科會114年預算」，你們發布的新聞是這樣寫的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是明年啦！"],["柯委員志恩：那你就寫錯了嘛！要不要更正一下？明年會不會受影響我也不知道，但你這樣寫，完全是陷入這樣的一個方式，重點是未來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，報告委員，這可能是誤會……"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，我還有問題，你可以等一下一併回答。現在要開始編列明年的預算，你告訴我們說科技非常重要，然後你們可能在114年7月確定8月要編預算書，預計115年科技預算將編列1,800億元。請問到目前為止，你有收到任何通知，表示這1,800億元會受到影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院在財劃法修正案通過以後，就已經表示必須重新調配各部會的……"],["柯委員志恩：目前為止，你有感受到1,800億受到影響嗎？你有收到這樣的訊息嗎？然後你說財劃法上路將是災難，請問你目前有受到任何影響嗎？你有預估嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，的確有受到影響……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只問你，你有感受到1,800億目前有被要求經費要調整嗎？有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["柯委員志恩：然後呢？要調整多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：要調整……至少要減200億。"],["柯委員志恩：那我們就看看你們今年7月所編製的預算！我只能說我們也同意、贊成科研人力各方面都非常重要，但如果事情到目前為止都尚未發生，都還在編製預算中，請你好好跟你們的科政委員報告，要好好守住這個部分，但是對於還沒有發生的事，特別是114年的部分，你們有這樣的說法，然後好像又意指是藍白亂砍預算，以致研發的部分受到影響，這樣的推論，我個人非常有意見，我覺得有多少的事情就講多少話，這很重要。","召委，讓我快速把它講完。有關業務費凍結30%，在科學園區人才培育部分，針對這被凍結的30%，我們等一下一一來檢視，但是你看你們園區的人才培育，2016年是5,400人，但是到2024年降到2,800人，人數是越來越低，更不要講我們所提到的招生……等一下我們在處理預算解凍時再一併說明，以招生比例來說，特別是南科的部分，說實在的，效果也不是非常好，但是你們的報告只給我兩句話就解決了，這點讓本席非常不滿意，相對竹科、中科，南科實中的報告，告訴我們有持續改善策略，以這樣的報告就要要求我們解凍，對學科學出身的主委來說，可能也不太能接受。","最後我還要提出很多資料供你們參考，雖然你們在很多業務費─基本行政工作維持，還有資訊管理部分，都告訴我們被凍結，但事實上，你們的經費比過去還多，最重要的是，國科會每年預算都有賸餘，所以我只能說我們會用很多方法協助大家做業務的發展，但是不能無限的告訴我們這個東西沒有辦法，然後要求給你們更多經費，事實證明，你們的決算都有賸餘狀況，所以我個人認為，到目前為止，基本行政工作維持和資訊管理部分，問題應該不大。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，業務費是在行政事務上面，特別是南科，因為現在正大幅擴充，委員也知道，我們高雄兩奈米廠現在是如火如荼在進行，還有屏科……"],["柯委員志恩：是，主委，南科的擴充我們絕對會給予大力支持，如果你覺得經費不夠，我們可以用很多方式，包括追加預算來做，但是我只是告訴，目前為止我們所看到的訊息，你是有賸餘的，所以在預算解凍之前，說實在的，很多業務的推進應該還是可以執行的，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不過當初立法院決議是不能流用其他經費，我們的主計管得非常嚴格。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得主計常常……"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以業務費還是要拜託……"],["柯委員志恩：這個等一下，但是我們就以數據告訴主委，特別是你們的線上申辦服務，當然這也是你們提出的理由，但是你們服務的案數是完全往下降，所以我只用數據告訴你，下次再給我們寫解凍報告的時候，可能要提出更好的數據，我們才有辦法依這個報告來幫你們處理，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}}