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\"的\", \"start\": 480.25, \"end\": 480.631, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 480.631, \"end\": 481.233, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 481.233, \"end\": 481.314, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 481.314, \"end\": 481.334, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,479 --> 00:00:08,861\n好謝謝主席我們請主委好請主委主委好主委好主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方\n\n2\n00:00:25,674 --> 00:00:47,684\n但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧\n\n3\n00:00:49,801 --> 00:01:12,446\n是的我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式\n\n4\n00:01:14,387 --> 00:01:29,099\n來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛\n\n5\n00:01:32,822 --> 00:01:57,761\n好那如果是這樣子的話那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你來第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論這有觸法嗎\n\n6\n00:01:59,858 --> 00:02:14,071\n我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎\n\n7\n00:02:17,179 --> 00:02:20,361\n我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案\n\n8\n00:02:40,216 --> 00:02:45,779\n因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題\n\n9\n00:03:08,171 --> 00:03:12,815\n我想他會引發國人的不滿檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦\n\n10\n00:03:31,852 --> 00:03:41,995\n第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣\n\n11\n00:03:53,499 --> 00:03:58,080\n拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法\n\n12\n00:04:18,246 --> 00:04:28,633\n另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後\n\n13\n00:04:34,577 --> 00:04:54,591\n是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分\n\n14\n00:05:02,697 --> 00:05:25,951\n他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷\n\n15\n00:05:32,301 --> 00:05:56,149\n是謝謝委員就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為\n\n16\n00:05:56,949 --> 00:06:17,656\n我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為\n\n17\n00:06:18,564 --> 00:06:23,585\n主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由\n\n18\n00:06:48,230 --> 00:07:02,765\n種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好\n\n19\n00:07:09,972 --> 00:07:13,356\n台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛\n\n20\n00:07:27,112 --> 00:07:55,445\n這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準\n\n21\n00:07:56,938 --> 00:08:01,334\n謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6479\t8861\t好 謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委主委好主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方\n25674\t47684\t但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧\n49801\t72446\t是的 我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式\n74387\t89099\t來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛\n92822\t117761\t好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎\n119858\t134071\t我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎\n137179\t140361\t我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案\n160216\t165779\t因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題\n188171\t192815\t我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦\n211852\t221995\t第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣\n233499\t238080\t拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法\n258246\t268633\t另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後\n274577\t294591\t是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分\n302697\t325951\t他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷\n332301\t356149\t是 謝謝委員 就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些 比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論 那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為\n356949\t377656\t我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為\n378564\t383585\t主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由\n408230\t422765\t種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好\n429972\t433356\t台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛\n447112\t475445\t這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準\n476938\t481334\t謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委主委好主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方\n但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧\n是的 我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式\n來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛\n好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎\n我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎\n我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案\n因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題\n我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦\n第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣\n拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法\n另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後\n是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分\n他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷\n是 謝謝委員 就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些 比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論 那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為\n我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為\n主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由\n種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好\n台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛\n這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準\n謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.479 --> 00:08.861\n好謝謝主席我們請主委好請主委主委好主委好主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方\n\n00:25.674 --> 00:47.684\n但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧\n\n00:49.801 --> 01:12.446\n是的我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式\n\n01:14.387 --> 01:29.099\n來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛\n\n01:32.822 --> 01:57.761\n好那如果是這樣子的話那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你來第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論這有觸法嗎\n\n01:59.858 --> 02:14.071\n我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎\n\n02:17.179 --> 02:20.361\n我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案\n\n02:40.216 --> 02:45.779\n因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題\n\n03:08.171 --> 03:12.815\n我想他會引發國人的不滿檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦\n\n03:31.852 --> 03:41.995\n第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣\n\n03:53.499 --> 03:58.080\n拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法\n\n04:18.246 --> 04:28.633\n另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後\n\n04:34.577 --> 04:54.591\n是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分\n\n05:02.697 --> 05:25.951\n他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷\n\n05:32.301 --> 05:56.149\n是謝謝委員就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為\n\n05:56.949 --> 06:17.656\n我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為\n\n06:18.564 --> 06:23.585\n主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由\n\n06:48.230 --> 07:02.765\n種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好\n\n07:09.972 --> 07:13.356\n台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛\n\n07:27.112 --> 07:55.445\n這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準\n\n07:56.938 --> 08:01.334\n謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.479,"end":8.861,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委主委好主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方"},{"start":25.674,"end":47.684,"text":"但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧"},{"start":49.801,"end":72.446,"text":"是的 我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式"},{"start":74.387,"end":89.099,"text":"來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛"},{"start":92.822,"end":117.761,"text":"好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎"},{"start":119.858,"end":134.071,"text":"我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎"},{"start":137.179,"end":140.361,"text":"我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案"},{"start":160.216,"end":165.779,"text":"因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題"},{"start":188.171,"end":192.815,"text":"我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦"},{"start":211.852,"end":221.995,"text":"第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣"},{"start":233.499,"end":238.08,"text":"拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法"},{"start":258.246,"end":268.633,"text":"另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後"},{"start":274.577,"end":294.591,"text":"是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分"},{"start":302.697,"end":325.951,"text":"他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷"},{"start":332.301,"end":356.149,"text":"是 謝謝委員 就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些 比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論 那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為"},{"start":356.949,"end":377.656,"text":"我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為"},{"start":378.564,"end":383.585,"text":"主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由"},{"start":408.23,"end":422.765,"text":"種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好"},{"start":429.972,"end":433.356,"text":"台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛"},{"start":447.112,"end":475.445,"text":"這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準"},{"start":476.938,"end":481.334,"text":"謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":170,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時25分）謝謝主席。請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，臺灣是一個自由民主的國家，同意吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以臺灣有言論自由？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然，這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方。"],["蘇委員巧慧：正因為臺灣依循憲政體制，是民主自由的國家，所以在有言論自由的同時，對言論自由應該有基本界限，也就是不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序，也不能有消滅國家的狀態，這點同意吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的，我們認為雖然我們是民主法治國家，尊重國人的言論自由，這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式，但這是有界限的，比如最近要消滅我們國家的主權地位、鼓吹用武力的方式侵略臺灣，這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由，但言論自由的界限在於不能破壞憲政秩序，也不能消滅國家，這是很清楚的兩根支柱。既是如此，我請問你幾個狀態。綜觀今天你整篇報告，其實就是在言論自由與國家安全這兩個方向之間，畫出讓社會更清楚的界限展現，所以我問你，第一，如果臺灣人在臺灣自發性發表支持統一的言論，這有觸法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以沒有觸法。如果臺灣人在臺灣發表支持中國武力統一臺灣，或支持中國對臺軍演，這樣有觸法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這會引起臺灣極大的、相當的不安……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但引起不安不等於觸法，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是要了解其背後的動機……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，主委說得對。如果臺灣人在臺灣發表支持中國對臺軍演或支持中國武力統一臺灣，必須看個案而定。兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一提到，是不是有跟中國黨政軍配合發表言論，所以必須個案調查，這界限也很清楚。但如果臺灣人到中國去，已經進入中國了，且在中國發表支持中國對臺軍演、支持中國武力統一臺灣，這有沒有問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想會引發國人的不滿與檢舉，而我們也會非常關切，會認為他為什麼會講這種話？若如同委員所說，跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那就一定有問題，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個問題在於：他已經進入中國且發表這樣的談話，那麼除了兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一規定外，其實第九條也有規範。第九條的規定是，進入中國以後不能有危害國家安全的行為，所以我們的法律其實已經訂定相關規則。但今天的狀態是，面對中國越來越多的統戰行為，也就是中國想要統一臺灣、拿回臺灣、併吞臺灣，在這樣的過程中，行為樣態越來越多，所以我們必須檢視過去的法條是否足以規範並應對現在的狀況。因此，我們要不要討論、要不要修法、要不要更明確，好讓人民知道怎麼保護自己，而且是從言論到行為，所以這其實是在保護人民不要觸法，也是對臺灣這個民主自由國家的最大保障，這也沒有問題，對不對？所以我們今天要對行為主體、行為樣態做比較明確的規範，以及當後續行為發生之後是否有罰責做更具體的規範，這就是我們今天所討論的狀態。如果把這些狀態羅列出來的話就會很清楚，言論自由是存在的，而且有相當大的空間！換言之，你在臺灣自發性主張統一，是屬於言論自由的範圍；問題是，如果你主張用武力統一臺灣、武統，就像中配亞亞，就是因為在網路上高調宣傳支持中國以武力統一臺灣，所以移民署廢止其居留權。主委我問你，現在大家在問的藝人的部分呢？陸委會、我們的政府對藝人到底是什麼態度？若根據我剛剛講的如此清楚的規定來看，你對藝人的判斷為何？尤其是藝人最近的行為判斷。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能因被政治脅迫，發表了一些配合中國大陸軍演威嚇臺灣，或矮化、消滅中華民國主權的言論。這些我們都不認為是自發行為，其背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為，所以我們會透過這個進行必要的行政查處，看他到底受到什麼樣的脅迫。我們不認為這是自發行為，畢竟是在特定時刻、集體轉發相同圖貼、講一樣的話，我們認為極可能跟中國大陸有合作行為，所以我們會依法查處。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我認為是這樣。其實你剛剛的談話……當然，社會大眾在詢問你問題時會說，對藝人呢？但事實上，政府對藝人這個行業並沒有特別規範……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們是對所有人。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而是對全體的臺灣國民，對全體想要保護臺灣國家安全的人民做統一性規範！也就是說，臺灣的國民既然在這裡享受憲政民主秩序下的言論自由、種種的自由，那麼你對國家安全就應該要有所付出、有所保障！因此，你不能配合對岸的黨政軍，做出鼓吹武力統一臺灣的行為，就是這麼簡單的狀況，跟藝人的身分、職業沒有關係！"],["邱主任委員垂正：無關。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是對全體國人，不管是退將也好，藝人也好，臺商也好，任何人都好，都適用同樣的規定。若你的行為是受到脅迫的，這是一種狀態；但如果是合作的狀態，那你確實符合法律所規定的，如此政府就應該予以懲處、查處，這就是界定清楚，反而讓大家的行為更清楚，更知道要怎麼去做。","今天我想大家都有很多問題，時間的關係我們先談到這裡，我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次修法，再次拉出更明確的界限，讓臺灣國民知道要怎麼去做，就自己的行為、言論，讓自己安全，也讓國家安全。我希望在下次修法的時候，陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，也支持委員剛剛所有的說明與立場。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}}