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338.78, \"end\": 360.473, \"text\": \"所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 338.78, \"end\": 339.04, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 339.04, \"end\": 339.06, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 339.06, \"end\": 339.22, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 339.22, \"end\": 339.541, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 339.541, \"end\": 340.301, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 340.301, \"end\": 340.461, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 340.461, \"end\": 340.661, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 340.661, \"end\": 340.801, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 340.801, \"end\": 341.262, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 341.262, \"end\": 341.462, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 341.462, 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 614.793, \"end\": 614.813, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,329 --> 00:00:33,640\n好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱學正邱主委好請主委三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大以及提高罰款以及有如果這些退休將領或是工人\n\n2\n00:00:34,180 --> 00:00:49,529\n有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要要處理罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說\n\n3\n00:00:50,209 --> 00:01:05,119\n在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去10年有318位的文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階文官跟263位的基層的\n\n4\n00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:33,121\n那另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多那其實事實上在行政院在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度\n\n5\n00:01:33,641 --> 00:01:55,486\n那現在已經十年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全是虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況那我想要請教主委因為你本身在陸委會\n\n6\n00:01:57,186 --> 00:02:15,515\n也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟陸委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下\n\n7\n00:02:16,206 --> 00:02:37,878\n好謝謝委員關鍵這個議題我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假\n\n8\n00:02:40,479 --> 00:03:00,356\n那在11值等以上的那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯一個是依照法令嘛內政部許可一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法把範圍再更擴大\n\n9\n00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:15,527\n可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個\n\n10\n00:03:17,888 --> 00:03:40,865\n十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法\n\n11\n00:03:41,505 --> 00:03:59,077\n這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛\n\n12\n00:03:59,557 --> 00:04:18,020\n大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是\n\n13\n00:04:20,022 --> 00:04:36,340\n過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同\n\n14\n00:04:38,782 --> 00:04:53,517\n在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰\n\n15\n00:04:55,078 --> 00:05:02,144\n只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰\n\n16\n00:05:13,194 --> 00:05:38,160\n那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等\n\n17\n00:05:38,780 --> 00:06:00,473\n所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會因為我們立法之後啊為什麼因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過\n\n18\n00:06:02,654 --> 00:06:21,290\n跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好謝謝\n\n19\n00:06:23,707 --> 00:06:50,231\n所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分\n\n20\n00:06:50,751 --> 00:07:07,845\n那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下\n\n21\n00:07:09,506 --> 00:07:25,402\n是如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好\n\n22\n00:07:25,962 --> 00:07:43,731\n就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們\n\n23\n00:07:45,015 --> 00:07:45,535\n會不會取得有困難\n\n24\n00:08:05,077 --> 00:08:25,711\n應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行\n\n25\n00:08:26,451 --> 00:08:43,552\n那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請\n\n26\n00:08:45,054 --> 00:09:06,636\n跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題謝謝\n\n27\n00:09:08,258 --> 00:09:28,676\n謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處\n\n28\n00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:40,362\n那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為\n\n29\n00:09:55,788 --> 00:10:14,813\n但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9329\t33640\t好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱學正邱主委好請主委三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大以及提高罰款以及有如果這些退休將領或是工人\n34180\t49529\t有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要要處理罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說\n50209\t65119\t在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去10年有318位的文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階文官跟263位的基層的\n67220\t93121\t那另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多那其實事實上在行政院在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度\n93641\t115486\t那現在已經十年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全是虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況那我想要請教主委因為你本身在陸委會\n117186\t135515\t也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟陸委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下\n136206\t157878\t好 謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假\n160479\t180356\t那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大\n180876\t195527\t可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個\n197888\t220865\t十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法\n221505\t239077\t這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛\n239557\t258020\t大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是\n260022\t276340\t過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同\n278782\t293517\t在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰\n295078\t302144\t只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰\n313194\t338160\t那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等\n338780\t360473\t所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過\n362654\t381290\t跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好 謝謝\n383707\t410231\t所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分\n410751\t427845\t那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下\n429506\t445402\t是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好\n445962\t463731\t就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們\n465015\t465535\t會不會取得有困難\n485077\t505711\t應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行\n506451\t523552\t那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請\n525054\t546636\t跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝\n548258\t568676\t謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處\n572159\t580362\t那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為\n595788\t614813\t但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱學正邱主委好請主委三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大以及提高罰款以及有如果這些退休將領或是工人\n有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要要處理罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說\n在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去10年有318位的文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階文官跟263位的基層的\n那另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多那其實事實上在行政院在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度\n那現在已經十年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全是虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況那我想要請教主委因為你本身在陸委會\n也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟陸委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下\n好 謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假\n那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大\n可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個\n十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法\n這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛\n大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是\n過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同\n在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰\n只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰\n那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等\n所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過\n跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好 謝謝\n所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分\n那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下\n是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好\n就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們\n會不會取得有困難\n應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行\n那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請\n跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝\n謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處\n那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為\n但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.329 --> 00:33.640\n好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱學正邱主委好請主委三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大以及提高罰款以及有如果這些退休將領或是工人\n\n00:34.180 --> 00:49.529\n有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要要處理罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說\n\n00:50.209 --> 01:05.119\n在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去10年有318位的文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階文官跟263位的基層的\n\n01:07.220 --> 01:33.121\n那另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多那其實事實上在行政院在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度\n\n01:33.641 --> 01:55.486\n那現在已經十年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全是虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況那我想要請教主委因為你本身在陸委會\n\n01:57.186 --> 02:15.515\n也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟陸委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下\n\n02:16.206 --> 02:37.878\n好謝謝委員關鍵這個議題我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假\n\n02:40.479 --> 03:00.356\n那在11值等以上的那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯一個是依照法令嘛內政部許可一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法把範圍再更擴大\n\n03:00.876 --> 03:15.527\n可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個\n\n03:17.888 --> 03:40.865\n十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法\n\n03:41.505 --> 03:59.077\n這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛\n\n03:59.557 --> 04:18.020\n大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是\n\n04:20.022 --> 04:36.340\n過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同\n\n04:38.782 --> 04:53.517\n在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰\n\n04:55.078 --> 05:02.144\n只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰\n\n05:13.194 --> 05:38.160\n那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等\n\n05:38.780 --> 06:00.473\n所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會因為我們立法之後啊為什麼因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過\n\n06:02.654 --> 06:21.290\n跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好謝謝\n\n06:23.707 --> 06:50.231\n所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分\n\n06:50.751 --> 07:07.845\n那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下\n\n07:09.506 --> 07:25.402\n是如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好\n\n07:25.962 --> 07:43.731\n就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們\n\n07:45.015 --> 07:45.535\n會不會取得有困難\n\n08:05.077 --> 08:25.711\n應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行\n\n08:26.451 --> 08:43.552\n那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請\n\n08:45.054 --> 09:06.636\n跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題謝謝\n\n09:08.258 --> 09:28.676\n謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處\n\n09:32.159 --> 09:40.362\n那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為\n\n09:55.788 --> 10:14.813\n但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.329,"end":33.64,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱學正邱主委好請主委三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大以及提高罰款以及有如果這些退休將領或是工人"},{"start":34.18,"end":49.529,"text":"有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要要處理罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說"},{"start":50.209,"end":65.119,"text":"在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去10年有318位的文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階文官跟263位的基層的"},{"start":67.22,"end":93.121,"text":"那另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多那其實事實上在行政院在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度"},{"start":93.641,"end":115.486,"text":"那現在已經十年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全是虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況那我想要請教主委因為你本身在陸委會"},{"start":117.186,"end":135.515,"text":"也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟陸委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下"},{"start":136.206,"end":157.878,"text":"好 謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假"},{"start":160.479,"end":180.356,"text":"那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大"},{"start":180.876,"end":195.527,"text":"可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個"},{"start":197.888,"end":220.865,"text":"十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法"},{"start":221.505,"end":239.077,"text":"這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛"},{"start":239.557,"end":258.02,"text":"大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是"},{"start":260.022,"end":276.34,"text":"過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同"},{"start":278.782,"end":293.517,"text":"在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰"},{"start":295.078,"end":302.144,"text":"只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰"},{"start":313.194,"end":338.16,"text":"那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等"},{"start":338.78,"end":360.473,"text":"所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過"},{"start":362.654,"end":381.29,"text":"跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好 謝謝"},{"start":383.707,"end":410.231,"text":"所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分"},{"start":410.751,"end":427.845,"text":"那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下"},{"start":429.506,"end":445.402,"text":"是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好"},{"start":445.962,"end":463.731,"text":"就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們"},{"start":465.015,"end":465.535,"text":"會不會取得有困難"},{"start":485.077,"end":505.711,"text":"應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行"},{"start":506.451,"end":523.552,"text":"那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請"},{"start":525.054,"end":546.636,"text":"跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝"},{"start":548.258,"end":568.676,"text":"謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處"},{"start":572.159,"end":580.362,"text":"那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為"},{"start":595.788,"end":614.813,"text":"但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時50分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請邱垂正邱主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。今天是討論兩岸人民關係條例的相關修法，主要是要把適用範圍擴大、提高罰鍰，如果退休將領或公務人員有去擔任中共黨職，也要一併處以罰鍰，此外是未來可能赴港會等於赴中，以這樣的概念來進行討論和修法。本席也樂見這樣的討論，不過我要先請教主委，最近監察院的調查報告指出，過去10年有318位文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸，其中包含55位高階文官和263位基層文官，基層文官當中警察人員占165件，這部分是因為警政署定期清查而被揭露，而且監察院的報告顯示實際違規人數可能更多，代表黑數可能比揭露的還更多。","其實行政院103年就召開會議，規定對各機關人員赴中應有抽查制度，現在已經10年過去了，除了警政署和陸委會以外，其他機關並沒有普遍執行這樣的動作，所以我必須要說，我們有相關的法令，可是對赴中調查的整個機制有完全虛設且完全失靈的狀況。請教主委，因為你本身在陸委會非常長的一段時間，所以我相信你有一定的責任，請問為什麼監察院的報告會明確指出現在的機制是沒有辦法實行的？為什麼只有警政署和陸委會在實行？是不是可以請主委回答一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員關切這個議題，我們也很關注，那麼多人赴陸沒有完成請假手續，事實上十一職等以下或者是警官四階以下的人赴陸，必須向原服務機關請假，十一職等以上的，赴陸要經過內政部許可……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，一個是依照法令要內政部許可，一個是依照該機關內規。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員智倫：我想要請教主委，為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差？我們其實有相關的法令，可是執行率很差，所以現在也要討論修法，把範圍再更擴大。如果執行不利的話，修法的目的在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員給我說明的機會……"],["張委員智倫：我們支持修法，可是你要說如何執行？"],["邱主任委員垂正：過去有一個機制、有一個子法，用一般的人事管理來處理十職等以下前往的基層同仁，包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳，這個部分只有一個機制，所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼遵守。我們很重視委員提的問題，未來看能不能修法把所有的公職人員都納入，包括基層同仁，一定要依法許可。"],["張委員智倫：沒有！我了解的是現在有相關法令，但是十一職等以上有法令，十職等以下是內規，所以監察院的報告顯示，大家遵守的不一致，有些機關有在了解……"],["邱主任委員垂正：剛剛委員所說的也是我們修法的方向，我們把修法……"],["張委員智倫：所以你們內部現在已經有在討論赴陸的修法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，入法……"],["張委員智倫：什麼時候會提出來？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們正在研議，也跟各機關在商量，取得共識之後，我們很快就把它推出來。"],["張委員智倫：因為過去十年已經執行不力了，所以拜託主委不要讓有些人被懲罰，有些人沒有被懲罰；有些機關有在做，有些機關沒有在做，監察院的報告已經很明確跟您報告這件事了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，所以我們很重視。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，我要特別講的是，現在還有遇到第二個狀況，高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同，監察院的報告也明確指出，有53位違法赴中的高階公務人員移給內政部，應該依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令處罰，可是他們沒有受到任何行政處罰，連履歷存記都沒有，等於他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的紀錄。反觀263個違規的基層人員，多半受到記過懲處，甚至處罰到大過，依照考績法第二條的原則處罰。我想要請問，怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事、基層要記過處罰這樣的雙重標準？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。您提出這個非常重要，所謂的高官可能是在學校任職的行政人員，比如在大學任職系主任、所長或院長，他們好像就是比照十二職等，雖然這些人因為在學校比較自由，不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好，要完成各種請假跟許可的程序。"],["張委員智倫：未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：會。因為我們立法之後……"],["張委員智倫：因為基層人員說，為什麼高官只有罰錢，基層人員都要被記過？現在的規定是不是有雙重標準？"],["邱主任委員垂正：學校的部分可能要持續要求，如果是一般的公務人員比較……"],["張委員智倫：照主委的講法，現在就是有雙重標準，是不是要改善？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會努力。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。既然監察院的報告的確有說，現在內政部是不是要建立統一的處理機制，不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這不應該，我們未來修法應該要有非常清楚的規範。"],["張委員智倫：接下來我還是要跟主委報告，我希望這次提高罰鍰上限不要只是表面強化處罰力道，最後違規者只用罰錢來處理。還要請問主委，現在我們在討論修法，公務員赴中後的實際行程跟活動，陸委會是不是可以確實掌握？如果沒辦法掌握，如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰？是不是可以請主委說明一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果需要聯審會許可的比較沒有問題，因為他要提出完整的行程，還有赴陸的目的，我們也可以提醒他有很多的風險，針對這個部分，移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關得很好。也就是需要內政部許可這一塊，我們會進一步要求，您剛才也說他的行程、具體資料……"],["張委員智倫：到底他去大陸做了什麼事情，你們認為要處罰？因為你們沒有相關資料，所以過去到底是怎麼處罰的，也沒有人知道。"],["邱主任委員垂正：十一職等以上、沒有到聯審會中間的這一個區塊，我們會加強這方面的審查機制，包括您剛剛提到的要有具體的資料，這部分……"],["張委員智倫：取得會不會有困難？"],["邱主任委員垂正：應該是不會。"],["張委員智倫：最後我要跟主委報告，我希望這次修法是補制度的缺口，我們都支持，方向也沒有問題，可是我們知道執行才是關鍵，不能說該申請的不申請，該查的不查，出了問題也沒有人負責，我們認為這樣的管理會是失靈的。是不是條文不夠？還是制度沒有在執行？我們希望如果修法過了，行政部門應該要依法行政，不能只是讓公文多幾頁，問題還是留著。","最後我要請教主委一個問題，也是我之前一直在請教的，就是有關臺灣藝人查核的問題，其實陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就已經跨部會協助、處理，你在5月15號也提及未來可能會調查二十幾個藝人，現在已經5月29號了，請問到底什麼時候會有進度？到底制度要怎麼執行？這是我最後的問題，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝張委員。包括你講的未來如何掌握公務員赴陸的這些動態資訊，我們都會進一步來加強。不管是藝人……"],["張委員智倫：藝人我已經問第三次了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切討論……"],["張委員智倫：主委，你也是第三次回答同樣的答案了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：會進行必要的查處。剛剛也有委員提到，最主要的問題是他所發表的言論確實在消滅中華民國主權，或者呼應對岸軍演威脅臺灣，這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送，我們認為這不是自發行為，背後極可能是黨政軍的合作行為。這是依法，我們要進行查處，所以我們會跟文化部一起進行行政查處，目前都在進行當中，有具體的成果也會跟社會報告。"],["張委員智倫：這是我第三次問你，希望下次問你的時候，有一個比較清楚的答案，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝張委員。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}}